- Changes 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s
- Deliveries to start in late 2022
- Good 777-200ER replacement


https://twitter.com/BrianSumers/status/ ... 5598497793

Airbus press release
http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... -to-4.html

Why not just change the title of the previous topic and continue the discussion there?

Heads are exploding. Good for Airbus and United.

Great news for Airbus and the 350!

Every time UA modifies this order, they add 10 units to it!!! All the naysayers have to find a new topic to pick on.

From a passenger perspective, I applaud it as a 77E replacement. Combined with the 78J, we can put to bed the mystery of what will replace the 77E at UA. A350's TPAC (ORD, IAD, IAH, EWR), 78J's TATL (ORD, EWR, IAD).

The new Polaris seats that will be installed in the 77E's will make UA's current fleet competitive until the replacement in 2022-2027 with these units.

Good news for both UA and Airbus, and bad news for fans of fake news!

NYT reports deliveries from 2022-2027.

Great news.

Where's all the A350 armchair CEO's now who said the A350 would never come to UA!

Good for them! That livery needs larger titles....

UAL777UK wrote:

Great news.

Where's all the A350 armchair CEO's now who said the A350 would never come to UA!

The origin of this is the 2010 order for 25 A350-900s, with no A350s to UA until five years from now, in 2022. That's a win to you? Five years presents lots more opportunity for further delay or order restructuring.

The A350 looks stunning in United livery!

MIflyer12 wrote:

The origin of this is the 2010 order for 25 A350-900s, with no A350s to UA until five years from now, in 2022. That's a win to you? Five years presents lots more opportunity for further delay or order restructuring.

You mean there is still hope, correct?

UAL777UK wrote:

Great news.

Where's all the A350 armchair CEO's now who said the A350 would never come to UA!

The rumors of UA deferring and not taking delivery of A350-1000s turned out to be true. What many didn't know was what would happen to the order. Switching to 2022 - 2027 deliveries to replace the 777-200ER at right about 25 years for each plane makes a lot of sense. There were all sorts of rumors and speculation on what would happen to the Airbus orders from complete cancelling of all Airbus orders, switching to A359, switching to A330neo and switching to A321neo.

Is 45 x 900s worth the same as 35 x 1000s? If so, not much gain for Airbus

MIflyer12 wrote:

Five years presents lots more opportunity for further delay or order restructuring.

Order restructuring can also mean that they will order even a dozen more.....

fcogafa wrote:

Is 45 x 900s worth the same as 35 x 1000s? If so, not much gain for Airbus

UA has 55 777-200ERs, so it's possible that the order could grow even more.

fcogafa wrote:

Is 45 x 900s worth the same as 35 x 1000s? If so, not much gain for Airbus

In list prices, 45 * 900s is worth roughly 1,5BN more than 35 * 1000s (14,0 vs 12,5). Besides, providing support and spares for 45 aircraft is worth a hell of a lot more than doing it for 35, and that's where the manufacturers make most of their money. So, yes, it's a nice place for Airbus to be.

Newbiepilot wrote:

UAL777UK wrote:

Great news.

Where's all the A350 armchair CEO's now who said the A350 would never come to UA!

The rumors of UA deferring and not taking delivery of A350-1000s turned out to be true. What many didn't know was what would happen to the order. Switching to 2022 - 2027 deliveries to replace the 777-200ER at right about 25 years for each plane makes a lot of sense. There were all sorts of rumors and speculation on what would happen to the Airbus orders from complete cancelling of all Airbus orders, switching to A359, switching to A330neo and switching to A321neo.

also, don't forget that the deferral will allow UA to take delivery of the higher gross weight version of the A359. not insignificant.

fcogafa wrote:

Is 45 x 900s worth the same as 35 x 1000s? If so, not much gain for Airbus

An extra $1.4billion at list according to Bloomberg.

Newbiepilot wrote:

UA has 55 777-200ERs, so it's possible that the order could grow even more.

This.

And it certainly wouldn't rule out the -1000 in the longer term, either.

I think we will see the A350 at all the US3 in the coming years. And who knows with 2022, perhaps UA will pull the delivery of the A350-900 forward again, stranger things have happened.
Increased cost on maintenance as more 777-200 drop out of the fleets, a mandatory future expensive change to the 777-200 demanded by the FAA, or a raise in the oil price.

fcogafa wrote:

Is 45 x 900s worth the same as 35 x 1000s? If so, not much gain for Airbus

But surely very good news for RR - 90 engines vs. 70!

PM wrote:

fcogafa wrote:

Is 45 x 900s worth the same as 35 x 1000s? If so, not much gain for Airbus

But surely very good news for RR - 90 engines vs. 70!

+ spares

Though the 350 order could grow, recall UA also has 789s which UA can use to adjust the a/c on given missions between the two a/c during the year. Can someone refresh us on the possible/likely seat count on the 359 in the UA configuration?

Bad for the 35K, but overall a success for the program. Good for both Airbus and United.

Here's a memo to employees concerning the 359 and 3d Quarter results:


United team,

I want to commend all of you for your heroic efforts over the past week. My thoughts and prayers have been with each and every one of our Houston-based employees, and I thank all of you who have contributed to relief efforts to help our co-workers, customers and the communities devastated by this storm. The resilience of our people in Houston has been remarkable, and only with their commitment and determination have we been able to restart the operations and achieve a full recovery ahead of schedule.

This morning I presented to our analyst and investor community at a conference in Boston. I provided an update on our third-quarter financial guidance, which is below our initial expectations. There are a number of reasons for this. First, the closure of our Houston hub because of Harvey is estimated to have a significant negative impact on our third-quarter financial results. Jet fuel prices have increased, even more so after Harvey, and our revenue is below our initial forecast due to a variety of reasons.

One of the pressure points is related to our initial rollout of Basic Economy. This new product has been extremely effective in competing with ultra-low-cost-carriers on price and product, and has driven positive operational results through fewer gate-checked bags. However, any time you introduce a new product, it will take time to achieve the full results. In response to our competitors' slower-than-expected rollout of a comparable product, we have temporarily scaled back the breadth of our Basic Economy offering to address competitive challenges we experienced in the third quarter. We continue to believe wholeheartedly in our Basic Economy product that offers customers more choice and improves United's ability to compete for all passengers. We now project a pre-tax margin in the range of 8% -- 10%, and, while this is below our original expectations, I'm proud of all that you did to get us through some of the unique third-quarter issues.

Today we also announced significant changes to our Airbus A350 order, most notable of which is the timing of deliveries. We decided to defer these aircraft until 2022 to align with the replacement of our fleet of 55 Boeing 777-200ERs, which begin to turn 25 years old in 2023. Adjusting the timing of delivery of the A350s in no way limits our plan to grow and renew our fleet. We continue to take delivery of 777-300ERs, with the fleet growing to 18 aircraft by the end of next year, and will welcome our first 787-10 next year. Neither aircraft type was anticipated when we placed our original A350 order, and both types will fill our widebody growth needs over the next several years. In addition to our firm commitments shown below, we also plan to supplement our fleet with additional used aircraft.

Additionally, it was hard to justify having a small subfleet of 35 A350s spread out over our seven hubs, as there would be operational inefficiencies with crews, aircraft routings and spare parts, so we increased the order size to 45 aircraft. We also converted the order from the A350-1000 variant to the A350-900, which is a better fit for our network. We believe the smaller A350-900 is the better choice for United for our long range planning needs, as the A350-1000 is a larger aircraft that is comparable to the 18 777-300ERs being delivered through next year to replace the 747-400 fleet. Importantly, we have the ability to swap some of the A350-900 aircraft into the larger -1000 version if our views on aircraft size change over time.

The A350-900 is an outstanding aircraft with the size and range to be an excellent replacement for our 777-200ERs, and we have a substantial number of options we can exercise for more A350-900s. So if we decide to make this the sole replacement for the 777 fleet, we will be able to do so on similar, very attractive, economic terms.

While the third quarter had challenges, I feel strongly we are on track to achieving our long-term financial goals. It is the commitment from each of you to providing great service to our customers every day and to running a safe and on-time operation that will help us achieve our goal of being the world's leading airline.

Wow! That's what I call some breaking news! Congrats to Airbus and...and...*gulp*...UA...

A lot of you saw it coming! Pat yourselves on the back!

mjoelnir wrote:

I think we will see the A350 at all the US3 in the coming years. And who knows with 2022, perhaps UA will pull the delivery of the A350-900 forward again, stranger things have happened.
Increased cost on maintenance as more 777-200 drop out of the fleets, a mandatory future expensive change to the 777-200 demanded by the FAA, or a raise in the oil price.

I'm not holding my breath with AA getting any at this point, but your enthusiasm is noted

Revelation wrote:

Let's try to avoid the insipid "I'm Right, You're A Hater!" mentality that's all over this board.

Everyone was right about some aspect of this deal to some degree.

Rumours were clear that UA wasn't preparing to take the A350s soon-ish. Some said that meant they would "never" take the frames. But how to deal with all those huge deposits? Now we see, "never" just meant finding a way to defer using those deposits for an airplane that clearly is a great fit for the 772ER replacement role that clearly had to happen.

Well rumor was that UA couldn't take the A350 due to crew rest area issues.

I guess we can put that rumor to a rest.

Any word on engines? That was also rumored to be an issue.

scbriml wrote:

fcogafa wrote:

Is 45 x 900s worth the same as 35 x 1000s? If so, not much gain for Airbus

An extra $1.4billion at list according to Bloomberg.

And it certainly wouldn't rule out the -1000 in the longer term, either.

That would be the very long term I guess since UA has quite new B777-300ER's in the fleet.

But overall this changed and increased order is good news I guess for all involved parties.

and wich plane will be used to replace the 744s? how many 744s are left in the fleet?

Glad to see the sensible thing happening, UA now going for the A359 as an excellent 77E replacement. The A35K was just too much capacity now.

Newbiepilot wrote:

fcogafa wrote:

Is 45 x 900s worth the same as 35 x 1000s? If so, not much gain for Airbus

UA has 55 777-200ERs, so it's possible that the order could grow even more.

Possible, although I believe the 787-10 will be the 777 replacement for routes up to 9 hours or so.

scbriml wrote:

fcogafa wrote:

Is 45 x 900s worth the same as 35 x 1000s? If so, not much gain for Airbus

An extra $1.4billion at list according to Bloomberg.

Newbiepilot wrote:

UA has 55 777-200ERs, so it's possible that the order could grow even more.

This.

And it certainly wouldn't rule out the -1000 in the longer term, either.

Well, there were rumours the current UA board was not too happy with discounts they received for the A35K order, so I guess Airbus had to concede something in that area. 45 A359's for the price of 35 A35K's would mean roughly 10% additional discount, but usually in these kind of negotiations parties meet halfway. UA didn't have much alternatives either, the 737-10 conversion rendered an A321neo order for UA unlikely, and the A330neo doesn't make much sense for UA IMO.

Yes, UA has already stated they can still reorder the A35K, who knows...

Boeing778X wrote:

Wow! That's what I call some breaking news! Congrats to Airbus and...and...*gulp*...UA...

A lot of you saw it coming! Pat yourselves on the back!

mjoelnir wrote:

I think we will see the A350 at all the US3 in the coming years. And who knows with 2022, perhaps UA will pull the delivery of the A350-900 forward again, stranger things have happened.
Increased cost on maintenance as more 777-200 drop out of the fleets, a mandatory future expensive change to the 777-200 demanded by the FAA, or a raise in the oil price.

I'm not holding my breath with AA getting any at this point, but your enthusiasm is noted

I'm quite sure AA will follow UA's footsteps... defer until the 77E is ripe for replacement, and increase the order

blockski wrote:

Any word on engines? That was also rumored to be an issue.

I think it's pretty safe to assume engines will be supplied by RR.

LPSHobby wrote:

and wich plane will be used to replace the 744s? how many 744s are left in the fleet?

77W will complete the 744 replacement with UA. They recently ordered 4 more, in total 18.

Haha - only at a mega carrier is 35 aircraft considered a "hard-to-justify small fleet" of widebodies.

marcelh wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

Five years presents lots more opportunity for further delay or order restructuring.

Order restructuring can also mean that they will order even a dozen more.....

Which remains to be seen. They may order more, but then again, then could just use the 787-9 for some 77E routes.

45x A359s is a significant sized fleet. This is not good news for the -1000, but hopefully that will change.

Assuming the 777-200ERs are all replaced by A359s, and 763s are gone by 2022, we should have:

16x 764
12x 788
24x 789
14x 78J
45x A359
18x 77W

Hmm. The workhorse of the fleet is obvious. I suspect an increase of 787-9s and -10s. It also makes me question what else could fit.

frigatebird wrote:

Boeing778X wrote:

Wow! That's what I call some breaking news! Congrats to Airbus and...and...*gulp*...UA...

A lot of you saw it coming! Pat yourselves on the back!

mjoelnir wrote:

I think we will see the A350 at all the US3 in the coming years. And who knows with 2022, perhaps UA will pull the delivery of the A350-900 forward again, stranger things have happened.
Increased cost on maintenance as more 777-200 drop out of the fleets, a mandatory future expensive change to the 777-200 demanded by the FAA, or a raise in the oil price.

I'm not holding my breath with AA getting any at this point, but your enthusiasm is noted

I'm quite sure AA will follow UA's footsteps... defer until the 77E is ripe for replacement, and increase the order

I doubt it.

AA, for one, didn't order the A350, US did, and AA probably never would have on their own. Very little corporate enthusiasm, two deferrals in just a few months and no word on pilots training for it.

For lack of a better term, me thinks the A350 is simply not needed. Plus, our 77Es are quite a bit younger than UAs (COs are younger still.) We'll have ours for awhile.

At AA, you're probably going to see more 787-9s replace the 77Es, and the A350 order converted to something else.

frigatebird wrote:

Newbiepilot wrote:

fcogafa wrote:

Is 45 x 900s worth the same as 35 x 1000s? If so, not much gain for Airbus

UA has 55 777-200ERs, so it's possible that the order could grow even more.

Possible, although I believe the 787-10 will be the 777 replacement for routes up to 9 hours or so.

I suspect any future A350 additions will be for the -1000. With the 789, 787-10, and A359 UA has a lot more flexibility now to replace 777s with aircraft that better match the market needs. They don't need the full 77E (and thus A359) capability for every route they use the 777 on. In the past if PMUA wanted to use an aircraft larger than the 763 then they had no choice but to put a 777 on the route, no matter the payload/range requirements (PMCO had the 764, but even then only 16) so 77Es are being "abused" on a lot of shorter flights.

frigatebird wrote:

45 A359's for the price of 35 A35K's would mean roughly 10% additional discount

They're not getting 45 A350-900s for the same price as 35 A350-1000s.

EPA001 wrote:

That would be the very long term I guess since UA has quite new B777-300ER's in the fleet.

Well, in UA's statement, Kirby specifically mentioned that they have the option to switch back to the -1000 and also have options.

Boeing778X wrote:

Assuming the 777-200ERs are all replaced by A359s, and 763s are gone by 2022, we should have:

16x 764
12x 788
24x 789
14x 78J
45x A359
18x 77W

Hmm. The workhorse of the fleet is obvious. I suspect an increase of 787-9s and -10s. It also makes me question what else could fit.

That would be the 2027 fleet by the time all the A350-900s in this order are delivered. With that said, I seriously doubt that is how the fleet will actually look in 2027. 10 years is a long time. I think odds are that if UA is doing well and the US economy and international traffic is strong, there will be some A35Ks in the fleet and possible more 787s or A350s ordered. Conversely, if the US economy does poorly and international demand or yields fall, I think it is possible that some of the A359 orders will get deferred more.

Boeing778X wrote:

marcelh wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

Five years presents lots more opportunity for further delay or order restructuring.

Order restructuring can also mean that they will order even a dozen more.....

Which remains to be seen. They may order more, but then again, then could just use the 787-9 for some 77E routes.

45x A359s is a significant sized fleet. This is not good news for the -1000, but hopefully that will change.

Assuming the 777-200ERs are all replaced by A359s, and 763s are gone by 2022, we should have:

16x 764
12x 788
24x 789
14x 78J
45x A359
18x 77W

Hmm. The workhorse of the fleet is obvious. I suspect an increase of 787-9s and -10s. It also makes me question what else could fit.

I wouldn't assume the A359s will completely replace the 777-200ERs. Something like ~20 of those -200ERs are ex-Continental planes that were delivered between 2010 and 2011; they're substantially newer than the ex-United aircraft.

I count the current 777 fleet as:

19 777A, ex-United, delivered 1995-2000
33 777-222ERs, ex-United, delivered 1997-2002
22 777-224ERs, ex-Continental, delivered 2010-2011
14 777-322ERs, new, delivered 2016-present

EDIT: the dates for those ex-CO deliveries are wrong - my mistake. I was going off of this source: http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Unit ... e-b777.htm

First, congrats to UA. Serious question, not meant to bash UA.

Being that they're replacing the 777's, why even bother sending the 777s in for refurbishment? If they're only going to be around for another 5 or so years, why waste the money on very expensive mods. The business class seats in the 777 aren't that horrible that they have to spend the money to replace them with Polaris seats just to retire them in 5 years. Seems to be a huge waste. The 777 seat is flat bed and you do get the upgraded Polaris service. Why not simply accelerate the refurbs on the 787 and leave the 777 as is, after all, the 787 will be around for a heck of a lot longer than the 777.

Also, if you remember back when DL refurbished the 747 and then approximately 5 years afterwards announced its retirement, people on here raked DL across the coals for wasting money. So, I ask a perfectly legitimate question, is this a good approach for UA to take as opposed to the approach that DL took?

scbriml wrote:

frigatebird wrote:

45 A359's for the price of 35 A35K's would mean roughly 10% additional discount

They're not getting 45 A350-900s for the same price as 35 A350-1000s.

And I never said they are. Read further in my same post: but usually in these kind of negotiations parties meet halfway.

scbriml wrote:

They're not getting 45 A350-900s for the same price as 35 A350-1000s.

35 A35Ks = ~40 A359s (technically 39.5 A359s) at list prices (and at any price assuming discount from list price is constant between the two). It is possible that UA was able to negotiate a further discount from Airbus in order to keep the order at the A350 and not switch to say the A320neo (as I am sure Airbus wants to break into UA's widebody fleet which is currently all Boeing).

UA are probably paying a little more if they got a good deal to pick up new frames but it is probably not a huge net increase (certainly not the $2.75 billion 10 A359s would be at list prices).

blockski wrote:

I wouldn't assume the A359s will completely replace the 777-200ERs. Something like ~20 of those -200ERs are ex-Continental planes that were delivered between 2010 and 2011; they're substantially newer than the ex-United aircraft.

Note not all of the PMCO 777s are that new. 16 are 98-00, 2 are 02, and 4 are 07-10.

I imagine the PMCO 777s will be among the last 77Es to leave no matter the age because of their superior capability and GE engines giving them greater commonality with the 77Ws though.

blockski wrote:

Boeing778X wrote:

marcelh wrote:

Order restructuring can also mean that they will order even a dozen more.....

Which remains to be seen. They may order more, but then again, then could just use the 787-9 for some 77E routes.

45x A359s is a significant sized fleet. This is not good news for the -1000, but hopefully that will change.

Assuming the 777-200ERs are all replaced by A359s, and 763s are gone by 2022, we should have:

16x 764
12x 788
24x 789
14x 78J
45x A359
18x 77W

Hmm. The workhorse of the fleet is obvious. I suspect an increase of 787-9s and -10s. It also makes me question what else could fit.

I wouldn't assume the A359s will completely replace the 777-200ERs. Something like ~20 of those -200ERs are ex-Continental planes that were delivered between 2010 and 2011; they're substantially newer than the ex-United aircraft.

I count the current 777 fleet as:

19 777A, ex-United, delivered 1995-2000
33 777-222ERs, ex-United, delivered 1997-2002
22 777-224ERs, ex-Continental, delivered 2010-2011
14 777-322ERs, new, delivered 2016-present

The 777-224ERs are on average a bit newer than the 222ERs but they are not that much newer...the bulk of the 224s were delivered between 1998 and 2002 with a couple in 2007 and 2010. You are probably looking at the dates the 224s were inducted into UAs fleet.

The A350-900 is an outstanding aircraft with the size and range to be an excellent replacement for our 777-200ERs, and we have a substantial number of options we can exercise for more A350-900s. So if we decide to make this the sole replacement for the 777 fleet, we will be able to do so on similar, very attractive, economic terms.

A very interesting last sentence "So if we decide to make this the sole replacement for the 777 fleet"

That could be a very big thing in the future.
Anyway congratulations to UA, Airbus and RR.

Snip snip.. most interesting bits from United memo:

SonomaFlyer wrote:

Today we also announced significant changes to our Airbus A350 order, most notable of which is the timing of deliveries. We decided to defer these aircraft until 2022 to align with the replacement of our fleet of 55 Boeing 777-200ERs, which begin to turn 25 years old in 2023. Adjusting the timing of delivery of the A350s in no way limits our plan to grow and renew our fleet. We continue to take delivery of 777-300ERs, with the fleet growing to 18 aircraft by the end of next year, and will welcome our first 787-10 next year. Neither aircraft type was anticipated when we placed our original A350 order, and both types will fill our widebody growth needs over the next several years. In addition to our firm commitments shown below, we also plan to supplement our fleet with additional used aircraft.

Additionally, it was hard to justify having a small subfleet of 35 A350s spread out over our seven hubs, as there would be operational inefficiencies with crews, aircraft routings and spare parts, so we increased the order size to 45 aircraft. We also converted the order from the A350-1000 variant to the A350-900, which is a better fit for our network. We believe the smaller A350-900 is the better choice for United for our long range planning needs, as the A350-1000 is a larger aircraft that is comparable to the 18 777-300ERs being delivered through next year to replace the 747-400 fleet. Importantly, we have the ability to swap some of the A350-900 aircraft into the larger -1000 version if our views on aircraft size change over time.

The A350-900 is an outstanding aircraft with the size and range to be an excellent replacement for our 777-200ERs, and we have a substantial number of options we can exercise for more A350-900s. So if we decide to make this the sole replacement for the 777 fleet, we will be able to do so on similar, very attractive, economic terms.

I find it interesting that they are evaluating replacing the entire 777 fleet with A350s down the line. But with new 77W coming in, I'm sure that wouldn't happen for at least 12-15 years. Also notable that they have a lot of A350 options at favorable prices. Upgrades to -1000 might happen later as well.

Polot wrote:

blockski wrote:

I wouldn't assume the A359s will completely replace the 777-200ERs. Something like ~20 of those -200ERs are ex-Continental planes that were delivered between 2010 and 2011; they're substantially newer than the ex-United aircraft.

Note not all of the PMCO 777s are that new. 16 are 98-00, 2 are 02, and 4 are 07-10.

I imagine the PMCO 777s will be among the last 77Es to leave no matter the age because of their superior capability and GE engines giving them greater commonality with the 77Ws though.

Ah, thanks - I was going off of this source, which puts them all at 2010-2011; that must be something merger related...

http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Unit ... e-b777.htm

Congrats to UA and Airbus! Pretty exciting news.

Since we're only 6 years away from the first arrival.

I'm not all that familiar with how UA uses the 772ER's but from the comments in the press release ("across 7 hubs") it sounds like they'll be used broadly across the network, unlike DL which is primarily focused on using the 359 on TPAC routes.

tlecam wrote:

I'm not all that familiar with how UA uses the 772ER's but from the comments in the press release ("across 7 hubs") it sounds like they'll be used broadly across the network, unlike DL which is primarily focused on using the 359 on TPAC routes.

Since the 77E was essentially the backbone of both PMUA's and PMCO's intercontinental fleets you find them just about everywhere. Initial A350s will of course likely be focused in one hub/region and slowly spread out as the fleet builds like with the 787s.