I've found it odd that B6, VX, and AS all service JFK in addition to both EWR and LGA, and WN also serves EWR and LGA but not JFK. This seems to be a glaring omission, especially considering it is the only carrier excluding the ULCC's to be missing from JFK. Why? If everyone can else can serve it profitably, can't WN work at JFK as well?

First I'd correct you and point out UA doesn't serve JFK anymore. At the same time, they've admitted leaving JFK was a mistake.

I think WN would serve JFK if they could get enough slots, slots really are the biggest barrier to WN JFK service. That said, JFK would likely mimic WN's EWR portfolio, with WN serving many primary business routes from LGA, and out-of-perimeter and additional markets from EWR/JFK.

If JFK's slot regulations were reduced or removed like EWR, I think we'd see WN jump in pretty quickly if they could get enough access to gates.

They serve the area quite sufficiently with LGA, PVD, ISP and EWR. I don't see any reason to jump into JFK and apparently neither does WN.

UA never admitted leaving JFK was a mistake, one of their ex executives who now works for a competitor said it was a mistake. I think that's an important distinction.

Prost wrote:

UA never admitted leaving JFK was a mistake, one of their ex executives who now works for a competitor said it was a mistake. I think that's an important distinction.

Scott Kirby can be credited with the statement that is being referenced.

[*]

Prost wrote:

UA never admitted leaving JFK was a mistake, one of their ex executives who now works for a competitor said it was a mistake. I think that's an important distinction.

Wrong. Scott Kirby is still very much employed at United.

WN historically focused on cheaper outlier airports near the major northeast cities. They have long since started to move into these cities (EWR, BOS, LGA) wherever possible, sometimes restricted by slots. That said, JFK is a major international airport with LGA (and EWR, depending on one's location) being more preferred for domestic. WN may be interested in JFK, but it doesn't strike me as a 'must' for them, unless they start flying across the ocean.

ty97 wrote:

WN historically focused on cheaper outlier airports near the major northeast cities. They have long since started to move into these cities (EWR, BOS, LGA) wherever possible, sometimes restricted by slots. That said, JFK is a major international airport with LGA (and EWR, depending on one's location) being more preferred for domestic. WN may be interested in JFK, but it doesn't strike me as a 'must' for them, unless they start flying across the ocean.

I agree with this. Unless WN partners with someone who flies TATL from JFK, they don't have any real need to be there. LGA/EWR serve their purpose just fine.

B6's very existence is proof that WN can misread the market just as badly as any of the rest of 'em.

NY (especially upstate) would've sold their soul to WN to begin JFK service in the '90s, and the project that would become B6 seized on that opportunity and the support that came with it.

WN could probably have a 300+ flight operation at JFK if they'd gone for it, back in the day.
But then, they were a different animal during those times.

jmc1975 wrote:

They need slots to do so.

Other than some S.Am arrivals, and red-eye arrivals from the west... you can go bowling on JFK's runways in the mornings.

Southwest will pull an AirTran and purchase JetBlue. The majors will then pick form what's left of the JetBlue carcass (jets, facilities, slots, etc.). Within 5 years this will happen. Mark my words.

KICT wrote:

Southwest will pull an AirTran and purchase JetBlue. The majors will then pick form what's left of the JetBlue carcass (jets, facilities, slots, etc.). Within 5 years this will happen. Mark my words.

Lets hope not. We've already had enough consolidation. Some of you won't be happy until we have a monopoly.

Jetblue and Alaska I could see. Jetblue and Southwest would surprise me, and would have a harder time getting approved.

It will be a long time & a cold day in hell, for any of the top 5 carriers to be given the authority to merge. The subject comes up often & I do not understand why people expect yet another merger.

We need the competition against the top 3, by the next 3 to keep things honest. I don't see any large mergers in the next decade with the current market environments.

KICT wrote:

Southwest will pull an AirTran and purchase JetBlue. The majors will then pick form what's left of the JetBlue carcass (jets, facilities, slots, etc.). Within 5 years this will happen. Mark my words.

Jeez Guys! I just SAW a half baked story about UAL buying JBLU JUST to get back into JFK. Lot of smoke and No Fire!!

Prost wrote:

UA never admitted leaving JFK was a mistake, one of their ex executives who now works for a competitor said it was a mistake. I think that's an important distinction.

Scott Kirby that now works for UA said it was a mistake as well.

tysmith95 wrote:

KICT wrote:

Southwest will pull an AirTran and purchase JetBlue. The majors will then pick form what's left of the JetBlue carcass (jets, facilities, slots, etc.). Within 5 years this will happen. Mark my words.

Lets hope not. We've already had enough consolidation. Some of you won't be happy until we have a monopoly.

Jetblue and Alaska I could see. Jetblue and Southwest would surprise me, and would have a harder time getting approved.

The only other mergers I could see happening are Alaska-JetBlue and Frontier-Spirit, that's it. And I doubt either one happens anytime soon.

Southwest does not want to fly to JFK because JFK always delay flights. Long waiting taxiing and take off. Southwest wants to fly on time performance on their schedules system 95% stay afloat.

Q

They don't have slots or gate space here to run a decent size operation. Market is very competitive and geared at flying that southwest isn't the greatest at or JetBlue already dominates like New York to Florida or islands. Southwest is not really relevant in New York. If you spent all your time in New York, you would think JetBlue is a larger carrier.

Q wrote:

Southwest does not want to fly to JFK because JFK always delay flights. Long waiting taxiing and take off. Southwest wants to fly on time performance on their schedules system 95% stay afloat.

Q

You might want to tell Southwest that...out of the 4 major carriers they have the worst ontime performance. Also of the three NYC airports JFK has a higher ontime performance ranking than EWR or LGA does.

In the past WN avoided airports where they could not do quick turns. WN even pulled out of SFO completely for 6 years because of that very reason. Eventually they decided it was more important to be in airports such as BOS, PHL, LGA, DCA, EWR and also saw value in being awarded slots at slot controlled airports like LGA and DCA. WN also does not fly to ORD but in that case MDW is the more convenient airport to the business district and is a major hub for them.

No room at JFK. JFK is slot-restricted and with a need to do quick turnarounds, they need a slot for departure within 1 hour of arrival. During the major rush hours for JFK (12 PM to 4 PM inbound and 4:30 PM to 8:30 PM outbound), that's not happening. WN was able to get into LGA by buying ATA's slots. They also have a presence in Newark. Also, if WN were to fly into JFK, there is the problem of a suitable terminal. With Interjet now having 32 slots into JFK (all out of Terminal 7), and Alaska/Virgin America moving to Terminal 7 for winter 2017 and beyond, the only room is at the IAT (Terminal 4) but no one at T4 has dedicated gates there other than Delta and its JV partners operating to the terminal (VS on one of its flights, KL, and AM), with the other gates limited in space and capacity, and needing 3 gates for A380s. Not having dedicated gates is a major problem. As such, it would make no sense at all for WN to fly to JFK.

As for competition even without these considerations, VX/AS is the super-regional of the West Coast, and B6, the hometown airline, is the same for the East Coast. How could WN possibly compete against B6 at B6's home base?

I don't believe WN will ever serve JFK. They don't have the slots necessary to do so and even if they did, the competition against B6 would be fierce.

Varsity1 wrote:

They serve the area quite sufficiently with LGA, PVD, ISP and EWR. I don't see any reason to jump into JFK and apparently neither does WN.

I'm not understanding your logic by putting PVD in this list. It's obviously not a NYC area station. As for JFK, I think that ship has sailed. I suspect they'll work towards getting more availability at LGA.

AAvgeek744 wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

They serve the area quite sufficiently with LGA, PVD, ISP and EWR. I don't see any reason to jump into JFK and apparently neither does WN.

I'm not understanding your logic by putting PVD in this list. It's obviously not a NYC area station. As for JFK, I think that ship has sailed. I suspect they'll work towards getting more availability at LGA.

PVD can serve the southern suburbs of Boston

Isn't PVD a good hour from BOS?

tysmith95 wrote:

AAvgeek744 wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

They serve the area quite sufficiently with LGA, PVD, ISP and EWR. I don't see any reason to jump into JFK and apparently neither does WN.

I'm not understanding your logic by putting PVD in this list. It's obviously not a NYC area station. As for JFK, I think that ship has sailed. I suspect they'll work towards getting more availability at LGA.

PVD can serve the southern suburbs of Boston

We already knew that when WN served PVD and MHT over BOS. Since this thread is about WN at JFK, lumping PVD in with NYC area airports makes no sense.

I think it's funny how everybody still treats WN as the small airline from Texas. If WN really wanted to get into JFK they would buy slots and get some space. Really, for the flying they do, there is no reason to fly JFK.

Southwest has nonstop service from LGA to 3 Midwestern cities that are not served nonstop out of JFK, and these 3 cities are Kansas City, Milwaukee, and St. Louis. In addition, most of the flights from NYC to Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas, and Houston are out of LGA. Furthermore, JetBlue already has nonstop service out of JFK that is in competition with Southwest nonstop service out of LGA, including JetBlue's JFK-ORD (which is in competition with Southwest LGA-MDW nonstop service), JFK-DEN, JFK-HOU, and JFK-TPA nonstop routes. It actually makes sense for Southwest to serve LGA but not to serve JFK since most of the nonstop service from NYC to the cities that Southwest flies to nonstop out of LGA is out of LGA.

Something lingering in my head for a while, why doesn't WN do LGA-MCO? The NYC market is the strongest domestic O&D market from MCO and yu'd think WN could do it while coinciding with EWR.

jplatts wrote:

Southwest has nonstop service from LGA to 3 Midwestern cities that are not served nonstop out of JFK, and these 3 cities are Kansas City, Milwaukee, and St. Louis. In addition, most of the flights from NYC to Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas, and Houston are out of LGA. Furthermore, JetBlue already has nonstop service out of JFK that is in competition with Southwest nonstop service out of LGA, including JetBlue's JFK-ORD (which is in competition with Southwest LGA-MDW nonstop service), JFK-DEN, JFK-HOU, and JFK-TPA nonstop routes. It actually makes sense for Southwest to serve LGA but not to serve JFK since most of the nonstop service from NYC to the cities that Southwest flies to nonstop out of LGA is out of LGA.

This pretty much summarizes up why WN does not serve JFK. WN just doesn't bring anything to the table that B6 has not already done. People aren't exactly demanding service from JFK to markets like MCI, STL, MDW, MKE, IND, CMH, or BNA - traditional WN strongholds, which are much better served from LGA and/or EWR. Other WN strongholds - like HOU, DEN, TPA - either already have plenty of competition, or just do not command much O&D to/from JFK. And it's not like WN is going to jump into JFK-LAX/SFO or other JFK-transcon, with B6, DL, AA, and AS/VX all duking it out.

flymco753 wrote:

Something lingering in my head for a while, why doesn't WN do LGA-MCO? The NYC market is the strongest domestic O&D market from MCO and yu'd think WN could do it while coinciding with EWR.

I agree LGA-MCO could do well, but notice how WN recently entered LGA-TPA -- a market that B6 recently exited. This may have more to do with deploying slots most efficiently, where competition is not as fierce

All off

WN is a short/medium haul airline historically. Some longer flights now, but short/medium is still where it is at for them.

JFK is a long haul airport. Historically, short haul has not worked there.

Currently, beyond someone with a hub like DL or a must have for someone like B6, I am not sure short haul works at present from JFK. Even B6 avoids CLE PIT DTW etc from JFK.

WN could have had JFK. There were slots and Terminal 6 awaiting them. They chose ISP...which is actually laughable. But it does show insight into their thinking on JFK.

Even today, flights are added at JFK.

WN could pick up a slot here and there and slowly build...VX did just that.

jetblueguy22 wrote:

If WN really wanted to get into JFK they would buy slots and get some space.

...except that slots aren't up for sale. This isn't like LHR, where airlines own them.

The previous post is entertaining. *Everything* in the airline world is for sale, provided it makes sense strategically and financially to do so. It amazes me that today, with merger after merger behind us across multiple administrations, that there are still naysayers among us whose instant reaction is, "No way that will ever happen!"

It is utterly naive to think that Southwest, an airline soon to be the largest airline in the world and infamous for gobbling up its competitors to clear out gate space in critical markets, is not interested in the #1 domestic market in North America. Comical, actually.

JetBlue is a prime takeover target. They have little to nowhere to expand. Half of their fleet are uneconomical maintenance hogs and they are actively looking to get rid of them (E190s). The A320 fleet is starting to get long in the tooth. When the merger happens (not if), the newer Airbii will be placed with other operators in short order, the younger ones would be soda cans quickly. I remind everyone that Trump is the President, and will green light a merger such as this so fast "your head will spin".

The writing was on the wall for B6 as soon as they were outbid for Virgin by AS. Any employee groups at B6 who aren't unionized at this point are fools. Sign your cards now.

flymco753 wrote:

Something lingering in my head for a while, why doesn't WN do LGA-MCO? The NYC market is the strongest domestic O&D market from MCO and yu'd think WN could do it while coinciding with EWR.

Southwest kinda did LGA-MCO, however, it was through Airtran. It was seasonal during the summer of 2012 I believe

Prost wrote:

UA never admitted leaving JFK was a mistake, one of their ex executives who now works for a competitor said it was a mistake. I think that's an important distinction.

Incorrect:

United Airlines President: Leaving New York’s JFK ‘Was the Wrong Decision’

But a year and a half later, United’s new president, Scott Kirby, says moving the flights from JFK was a mistake. Many of United’s most lucrative West Coast customers, he said, want to fly into New York City and not New Jersey. And United lost some of them when it switched the flights to Newark, Kirby told employees at a recent town hall meeting in Newark.

“I wish I could roll back the clock and change the decision,” Kirby said, according a recording of the event. “It was the wrong decision.”

https://skift.com/2017/04/21/united-air ... -decision/