exunited wrote:

Time in the aircraft has no bearing on upgrade to capt, only seniority in the company. Pilots upgrade all of the time into an airplane they have never flown before.

Spot on comment. There are contractual creations called "fences" which wall off certain aircraft types when two airlines merge. This is negotiated by the pilots as part of the merger. United had such fences around the 787 and 747 fleets until the 25th 787 came onto the property. This was the last airline to have contractual fences IIRC.

Each airline pilot at each airline has a seniority number. That number controls whether they can hold a particular seat on a particular plane. Some bases are more senior than others; aircraft such as wide bodies are usually more senior (i.e. a pilot with a lower seniority number) than narrow body a/c.

The MD88 for DL at NYC is a junior aircraft for pilots. This is due to a number of reasons including how easy it is to commute to the base, how expensive the area is and the aircraft itself.

The MD88 is nicknamed the MadDog at DL for a reason. It is challenging to fly and doesn't have all of the slick bells and whistles as other planes in the fleet. The aircraft is, lets just say unforgiving compared to many aircraft designed since the MD 80 series. Package that all up with a mega expensive NYC area and the trips for the pilots not being very commute friendly, the plane goes VERY junior.

As a regional Captain. I can tell you this....If i went to DL the last thing i want to do is MD80 FO, 4-5legs a day!! I want to sit long haul FO... been doing 4-5 leg days far to long... like to go see the world...(on the company's dime)

amcnd wrote:

As a regional Captain. I can tell you this....If i went to DL the last thing i want to do is MD80 FO, 4-5legs a day!! I want to sit long haul FO... been doing 4-5 leg days far to long... like to go see the world...(on the company's dime)

You sound young. If you are older you like being back at home that night, or the next day. Not 5 day long trips and once you see the sights you've seen them all. It is fun long haul of course but in my opinion some people get tired. If they are interested in intl travel they can fly on the company's dime to vacation.

SonomaFlyer wrote:

The MD88 for DL at NYC is a junior aircraft for pilots. This is due to a number of reasons including how easy it is to commute to the base, how expensive the area is and the aircraft itself.

The MD88 is nicknamed the MadDog at DL for a reason. It is challenging to fly and doesn't have all of the slick bells and whistles as other planes in the fleet. The aircraft is, lets just say unforgiving compared to many aircraft designed since the MD 80 series. Package that all up with a mega expensive NYC area and the trips for the pilots not being very commute friendly, the plane goes VERY junior.

While all those points about NYC are true, it is worth mentioning that the aircraft isn't junior just in NYC. In fact, the NYC 88 base is closing next year and the most recent very junior captain awards were in ATL.

The pay and schedules for A330/764/777/747 flying has made it very attractive for many to stay an FO until they can hold a decent schedule as captain in the A320 or 737, which both have more relaxed schedules than the 88 or 717.

amcnd wrote:

As a regional Captain. I can tell you this....If i went to DL the last thing i want to do is MD80 FO, 4-5legs a day!! I want to sit long haul FO... been doing 4-5 leg days far to long... like to go see the world...(on the company's dime)

As the saying goes...different strokes for different folks. Some want to see the world, some want the highest pay rate they can hold, some will only bid bigger planes depending on the domicile, and some want seniority and the control over their schedule it affords. Besides, 4-5 legs at a mainline pace with 40 minute turns is a lot less stressful for a pilot than 25 minute regional turns.

727200 wrote:

So a guy flies for a commuter carrier only to build time so he cn get to the 'Big Leagues." Then as a new hire he goes right seat, then 6 months later left seat? Realistically, how competent is he to be in charge of a plane 6 months off the street? No thanks, safety factor just decreased. I will just avoid DL for a while.

You do realize that a lot of airlines around the world hire street captains, right?

It's strange that some people think nothing of people with 200 or 300 hours of total time sitting the right seat but then freak out when the captain is a quick upgrade at what is almost definitely not their first airline.

I have been PIC on the MD88 and would not have wanted to upgrade on it without some time as FO first. It can be done but it is definitely not as straight forward as an RJ or airbus. Interestingly, many of the highest paid Delta pilots are ATL MD88 guys. The opportunity for overtime etc is enormous if you want to work a lot.

727200 wrote:

So a guy flies for a commuter carrier only to build time so he cn get to the 'Big Leagues." Then as a new hire he goes right seat, then 6 months later left seat? Realistically, how competent is he to be in charge of a plane 6 months off the street? No thanks, safety factor just decreased. I will just avoid DL for a while.

By the time you get to Delta a pilot has likely already been a Captain at a regional or an A/C Commander in the military. If you don't like the qualifications at Delta then you better not fly any of the regionals either.

9MMPQ wrote:

ckfred wrote:

But, what I see as a potential problem is when Delta retires the MD-80 fleet. If you have a young captain, because he agreed to start with the MD-88, what happens when he agrees to transition to the Airbus A320 family or Boeing 737 or 757/767? Will he be able to keep flying as a captain, or will he go back to F/O?

There is talk that people in such circumstances will again end up in the right seat on whatever they will get to fly next and end up in the queue way behind the guys who have been building hours on that type from the start as F/O. If that's true then what would be better if you could get in on either ? Captain on the MD and end up in the right seat again after a few years or F/O on B757/B767 with all the time spent there already working towards the left seat.



Not at all familiar with the procedures at Delta so maybe others who are can tell if this could be a valid concern ?

There is only one statistic that really matters to an airline pilot and that is their seniority number. Putting aside the black hole of a discussion mergers will conjure, the basic thing you must understand is all that matters is what your seniority number is. The number 1 guy on the seniority list gets what he wants, the number 2 guy gets what he wants as long as the number 1 guy didn't want it and so forth. When there is an opening for LGA/MD80/CA they start with number 1 and they went all the way down to number 15,000 (or whatever) before they found a taker. It doesn't matter what there total time is (presuming they meet the minimum FAA - which I would be surprised if anybody at Delta didn't qualify) what they were doing before they got to Delta. If they had gotten to the bottom of the seniority list with no takers it would have been offered and if necessary assigned to a new hire in a subsequent new-hire class.

When the MD80 goes away, the 15,000th pilot at Delta that loses his LGA/MD80/CA seat will be able to bump into any seat/base/airplane he wants where the junior pilot is 15,001+. It is likely, depending on the time frame, that he will end up a narrow-body FO somewhere. Being a Captain previously gives him NO advantage in bidding over more senior pilots that were never Captains.

One other correction from the above article (one of the most mistake-ridden I have read in a long time) is that with a few exceptions, and at all the US legacy carriers, longevity pay starts ticking from
the day you are hired. When you see "10th year captain pay" it means that the pilot has been with their airline for 9-10 years and that they are currently a Captain. It does NOT mean that the pilot has been a Captain for 10 years. At the US legacies, almost all of the Captains and a large portion of the First Officers are at "max-scale" which is usually 12 years. Even though there is a pay rate for a "3rd year 777 Captain" at Delta, there has never been a 3rd year 777 Captain at Delta.

Of course all of this is based on union environment of longevity is the #1 factor and not based on competency. Having flown I can tell you that there are good and bad pilots but the union doesn't care just as long as they get their dues. I have seen pilots deny the obvious in front of them just to protect another pilot, who should have been fired long ago. But then those who don't 'toe the union line' get ostracized...but that is another topic.

727200 wrote:

Of course all of this is based on union environment of longevity is the #1 factor and not based on competency. Having flown I can tell you that there are good and bad pilots but the union doesn't care just as long as they get their dues. I have seen pilots deny the obvious in front of them just to protect another pilot, who should have been fired long ago. But then those who don't 'toe the union line' get ostracized...but that is another topic.

How do you quantifiably rank pilots? You can use checkride failures and aircraft incidents to identify pilots who are either truly unqualified or in need of further training, but any other ranking system would, in my opinion, cause some pilots to cut corners to be #1.

So recently I was on Delta's MD-90 aircraft from PDX to MSP, and before I got on these flights (same aircraft on the return flight as well), I came across this article: http://loyaltylobby.com/2017/09/10/delta-will-promote-pilots-to-captain-if-theyre-willing-to-fly-the-mad-dog-md-88/

So Delta is promoting co-pilots to captains if they're willing to fly the MD-88 aircraft. The article also stated that Delta recently pulled the flights from LGA airport in New York due to the noise, and the airport officials were "relieved". The MD-88 is always touted as being one of the worst currently flyable aircraft in most airline's fleets. However, I would like to know what the main differences are between the MD-88 and MD-90 aircraft. Also, let's throw the Boeing 717-200 aircraft in the mix as well, which I've also flown in the past on various PDX-LAX flights...

Are the Boeing 717-200 and the MD-90 just as bad as the MD-88? If not, then what are the most notable differences? I've never been on the MD-88 before, but from what I could tell from the Boeing 717-200 and the MD-90, it wasn't all that bad...

FA9295 wrote:

So recently I was on Delta's MD-90 aircraft from PDX to MSP, and before I got on these flights (same aircraft on the return flight as well), I came across this article: http://loyaltylobby.com/2017/09/10/delta-will-promote-pilots-to-captain-if-theyre-willing-to-fly-the-mad-dog-md-88/

So Delta is promoting co-pilots to captains if they're willing to fly the MD-88 aircraft. The article also stated that Delta recently pulled the flights from LGA airport in New York due to the noise, and the airport officials were "relieved". The MD-88 is always touted as being one of the worst currently flyable aircraft in most airline's fleets. However, I would like to know what the main differences are between the MD-88 and MD-90 aircraft. Also, let's throw the Boeing 717-200 aircraft in the mix as well, which I've also flown in the past on various PDX-LAX flights...

Are the Boeing 717-200 and the MD-90 just as bad as the MD-88? If not, then what are the most notable differences? I've never been on the MD-88 before, but from what I could tell from the Boeing 717-200 and the MD-90, it wasn't all that bad...

Can you specify what differences you are looking for?

I know the MD-90 has better performance due to the newer engines, the MD-90 has better range (almost 900 nm farther), and is quieter.

Already being discussed here...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1372497

akelley728 wrote:

Already being discussed here...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1372497

I know that. This thread doesn't necessarily have to to with the co-pilot to captain promotion, but just the differences between the MD-88 and the MD-90 and Boeing 717-200.

This is a very positive spin on what is not so positive of a situation.

The real story here is that flying an MD-88, on reserve, in an undesirable base is so unappealing that hardly any pilot at Delta is willing to do it. It has nothing to do with "we'll promote you if you'll fly it" and it is 100% "we need someone to fly it and we have to go really far down the seniority list to find someone willing"

For the sake of round numbers and keeping a simple explaination, assume Delta has 10000 pilots (5000 captains and 5000 FOs) and 500 were hired in the last 6 months. That means MD-88 captain goes to seniority #9500. 4500 FOs at Delta would rather be First Officers, on anything, than be a Captain on the MD-88.

Sounds to me like Delta needs to make reserve schedules more desirable, captain pay on the MD-88 better, or increase the quality of life in whatever base is going junior to make their aircraft pilot bid awards more balanced.... generally having a captain with 6 months of experience is not a good thing. Even if they were a captain at another airline, the seniority system doesn't guarantee this. You want captains who have lots of experience with your airline, your airplane, your hubs, etc.

FA9295 wrote:

akelley728 wrote:

Already being discussed here...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1372497

I know that. This thread doesn't necessarily have to to with the co-pilot to captain promotion, but just the differences between the MD-88 and the MD-90 and Boeing 717-200.

You don't seem to understand airline seniority. Any "Co pilot" aka FO can upgrade to captain if their seniority holds it and they have 1000 121 time. In the USA all pilots are required to have an ATP and PIC type rating, so there really isn't a difference.

The MD-88 isn't liked because:

1. Not IFR RNAV certified, must fly VOR J routes which is obnoxious and tedious.

2. Shrinking fleet which means the lines are terribly inefficient.

3. The eventuality of getting displaced off the equipment means another training event (less pay during training, a month away from home and the possibility of a 121 training failure).

4. Going from a senior FO to junior anything will make your schedule and quality of life terrible, doesn't matter the equipment.

If I may ask, is it because most M88 routes are quick hop, (2 hours or less), long day routes that tend to be very draining on pilots as the duty day might take you ATL-PHL-ATL-TPA-ATL-JAN-ATL, for example?

EMB170 wrote:

If I may ask, is it because most M88 routes are quick hop, (2 hours or less), long day routes that tend to be very draining on pilots as the duty day might take you ATL-PHL-ATL-TPA-ATL-JAN-ATL, for example?

Are they that bad? I didn't think any of the majors had 6 leg days other than maybe Southwest. Not many majors have short enough segments to have 6 flights add up to under 8 hours block time. I thought it was pretty rare to have mainline pilots doing more than 4 legs in a day in the United States.

Varsity1 wrote:

FA9295 wrote:

akelley728 wrote:

Already being discussed here...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1372497

1. Not IFR RNAV certified, must fly VOR J routes which is obnoxious and tedious.

On Item #1. Incorrect.

I have merged a new thread into an older one covering the same topic. Enjoy your discussion.

MD88's can fly RNAV SIDs, STARs, and enroute. Just cant shoot RNAV approaches since they don't have GPS.

727200 wrote:

So a guy flies for a commuter carrier only to build time so he cn get to the 'Big Leagues." Then as a new hire he goes right seat, then 6 months later left seat? Realistically, how competent is he to be in charge of a plane 6 months off the street? No thanks, safety factor just decreased. I will just avoid DL for a while.

By the time that pilot becomes captain it is understood that he/she has upwards of 8000 hours total flying time. That is more than enough training for any pilot and there should be no worry of safety or security in who is commanding the airplane.

mikejepp wrote:

This is a very positive spin on what is not so positive of a situation.

The real story here is that flying an MD-88, on reserve, in an undesirable base is so unappealing that hardly any pilot at Delta is willing to do it. It has nothing to do with "we'll promote you if you'll fly it" and it is 100% "we need someone to fly it and we have to go really far down the seniority list to find someone willing"

For the sake of round numbers and keeping a simple explaination, assume Delta has 10000 pilots (5000 captains and 5000 FOs) and 500 were hired in the last 6 months. That means MD-88 captain goes to seniority #9500. 4500 FOs at Delta would rather be First Officers, on anything, than be a Captain on the MD-88.

Sounds to me like Delta needs to make reserve schedules more desirable, captain pay on the MD-88 better, or increase the quality of life in whatever base is going junior to make their aircraft pilot bid awards more balanced.... generally having a captain with 6 months of experience is not a good thing. Even if they were a captain at another airline, the seniority system doesn't guarantee this. You want captains who have lots of experience with your airline, your airplane, your hubs, etc.

The pay is fine. Delta would not certify unqualified captains. Let's be reasonable. The individuals concerned pass the checks and almost certainly have (long) command experience. It's an interesting story, but does not raise my blood pressure even 1 point.

amcnd wrote:

There is a reason FO's bypass the upgrade... work 18 days a month as a MD80 captain flying multiple legs a day, (out of JFK/ATL)... or widebody FO chilling in the crew bunk flying 1 leg a day for 12-15 days and take home the same money!!!

And that mindset contributes to continuous on-the-job training how? Sounds pure lazy to me. Just an observation...not a direct insult.

Moe

SPREE34 wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

FA9295 wrote:

1. Not IFR RNAV certified, must fly VOR J routes which is obnoxious and tedious.

On Item #1. Incorrect.

It is correct. Try throwing a reason out next time.

The GPS's in the MD88's can't be used for lateral navigation. Only substituted to identify waypoints such at LOM, fixes, DME etc..