Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
flyingclrs727 wrote:Flying transatlantic, the last thing I want to do is have to worry about all the incidental sevices and coats. Having to plan to bring my own food is a hassle, especially if there are connections needed prior to boarding the transoceanic flight.
wn676 wrote:Well, luckily they'll still offer the option of not worrying about all the incidentals.
wn676 wrote:flyingclrs727 wrote:Flying transatlantic, the last thing I want to do is have to worry about all the incidental sevices and coats. Having to plan to bring my own food is a hassle, especially if there are connections needed prior to boarding the transoceanic flight.
Well, luckily they'll still offer the option of not worrying about all the incidentals.
flyingclrs727 wrote:wn676 wrote:flyingclrs727 wrote:Flying transatlantic, the last thing I want to do is have to worry about all the incidental sevices and coats. Having to plan to bring my own food is a hassle, especially if there are connections needed prior to boarding the transoceanic flight.
Well, luckily they'll still offer the option of not worrying about all the incidentals.
Turkish Airlines serves excellent food even in economy, has a 2 bag limit, and still has excellent prices and comfort to Europe.
bgm wrote:flyingclrs727 wrote:wn676 wrote:
Well, luckily they'll still offer the option of not worrying about all the incidentals.
Turkish Airlines serves excellent food even in economy, has a 2 bag limit, and still has excellent prices and comfort to Europe.
Flying to Europe, especially Western Europe from the US via IST is quite a detour. Not to mention the instability in Turkey right now would deter a lot of people from using that option.
Mir wrote:wn676 wrote:Well, luckily they'll still offer the option of not worrying about all the incidentals.
By paying more, of course.
flyingclrs727 wrote:wn676 wrote:flyingclrs727 wrote:Flying transatlantic, the last thing I want to do is have to worry about all the incidental sevices and coats. Having to plan to bring my own food is a hassle, especially if there are connections needed prior to boarding the transoceanic flight.
Well, luckily they'll still offer the option of not worrying about all the incidentals.
Turkish Airlines serves excellent food even in economy, has a 2 bag limit, and still has excellent prices and comfort to Europe.
dcajet wrote:Due to the "material" effect of LCCs Norwegian and WOW over the North Atlantic, American will respond with an unbundled basic economy product on some North Atlantic routes, as per an interview with American SVP-revenue management Don Casey published today by Aviation Daily and featured on ATW.
http://atwonline.com/airports-routes/am ... tic-routes (behind a pay wall)
Newbiepilot wrote:What I find really annoying with these basic economy fares is that corporate travel will book into these fares. Then business travelers have to expense fees, which may not be permitted. Some corporate policies prohibit paying for premium seats, which means business travelers can be stuck in bad seats. European airlines like BA, LH etc charge for seats but US carriers fortunately have not.
Worse than that, stripping elite qualifying miles takes away the benefit of being loyal to one airline. Without elite status, it is back to whatever fare is cheapest. Not a good thing for business travelers, but airlines don't seem to care as much as they use to for frequent flyer program loyalty.
Oh well, off the soap box
Newbiepilot wrote:What I find really annoying with these basic economy fares is that corporate travel will book into these fares.
MIflyer12 wrote:Newbiepilot wrote:What I find really annoying with these basic economy fares is that corporate travel will book into these fares.
Decent corporate travel systems can block these fares -- just as they block F, or J for travel less than xx hours airport to airport.
Mir wrote:By paying more, of course.
Web500sjc wrote:So this is basically admitting that AA is the first airline to see the effect of Longhaul LCCs, and that Longhaul LCCs are not really stimulating new demand/capacity, but skiming off existing traffic at lower prices.
Newbiepilot wrote:The bean counters in charge of corporate travel decisions love them especially since corporate travel companies like Concur let the companies define the rules. They don't care if an employee has to sit in a middle seat in the last row, get little to no frequent flyer benefits, and still has to arrive prepared for a meeting. They saved the company $40. Concur and similar corporate travel websites let people choose day, time and select airlines within a specified price range. People who would have selected AA might chose DL or UA so that they can earn full frequent flyer miles, get seat assignments, etc. I don't know many people who book Norwegian, WOW, etc for business travel.
Newbiepilot wrote:The days of loyalty to alliances are going to continue fading away as there is less and less benefit to sticking to a preferred airline and alliance.
cledaybuck wrote:Are they actually going to compete on price with these fares or just give you less for what you were paying before? Based on how basic economy rolled out domestically, I know which why I am betting.
Newbiepilot wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:Newbiepilot wrote:What I find really annoying with these basic economy fares is that corporate travel will book into these fares.
Decent corporate travel systems can block these fares -- just as they block F, or J for travel less than xx hours airport to airport.
The bean counters in charge of corporate travel decisions love them especially since corporate travel companies like Concur let the companies define the rules. They don't care if an employee has to sit in a middle seat in the last row, get little to no frequent flyer benefits, and still has to arrive prepared for a meeting. They saved the company $40. Concur and similar corporate travel websites let people choose day, time and select airlines within a specified price range. People who would have selected AA might chose DL or UA so that they can earn full frequent flyer miles, get seat assignments, etc. I don't know many people who book Norwegian, WOW, etc for business travel.
bgm wrote:flyingclrs727 wrote:wn676 wrote:
Well, luckily they'll still offer the option of not worrying about all the incidentals.
Turkish Airlines serves excellent food even in economy, has a 2 bag limit, and still has excellent prices and comfort to Europe.
Flying to Europe, especially Western Europe from the US via IST is quite a detour. Not to mention the instability in Turkey right now would deter a lot of people from using that option.
mjoelnir wrote:bgm wrote:flyingclrs727 wrote:
Turkish Airlines serves excellent food even in economy, has a 2 bag limit, and still has excellent prices and comfort to Europe.
Flying to Europe, especially Western Europe from the US via IST is quite a detour. Not to mention the instability in Turkey right now would deter a lot of people from using that option.
Flying to the USA, transferring flights in the hubs of the main USA airlines, one shuttles also quite a bit back and force over the USA to reach ones destination.
Newbiepilot wrote:AA is not just competing with low cost carriers. Airlines like Lufthansa already stripped away frequent flyer benefits and seat assignments. The days of loyalty to alliances are going to continue fading away as there is less and less benefit to sticking to a preferred airline and alliance.
cledaybuck wrote:Are they actually going to compete on price with these fares or just give you less for what you were paying before? Based on how basic economy rolled out domestically, I know which why I am betting.
bgm wrote:flyingclrs727 wrote:wn676 wrote:
Well, luckily they'll still offer the option of not worrying about all the incidentals.
Turkish Airlines serves excellent food even in economy, has a 2 bag limit, and still has excellent prices and comfort to Europe.
Flying to Europe, especially Western Europe from the US via IST is quite a detour. Not to mention the instability in Turkey right now would deter a lot of people from using that option.
wn676 wrote:Mir wrote:wn676 wrote:Well, luckily they'll still offer the option of not worrying about all the incidentals.
By paying more, of course.
Kind of goes without saying, doesn't it? I'm all for getting a deal, but if I'm really not up for dealing with the Basic Econ experience, there are other fare classes available. Pay more up front and worry less about incidentals.
aaexecplat wrote:charging either the same for less or more for the same. These airlines are pathetically transparent.
AWACSooner wrote:wn676 wrote:Mir wrote:
I'm sorry, but I just can't stand the posts that just state "pay more" for what you used to get for the price you pay now. I've said it before and I'll say it again, this "economy minus" product offered by the big 3 is nothing more than a SCAM...that same $XXX airfare you're paying right now for that free checked bag and meal on the trans-atlantic flight will get you NONE of that with this introduction...you'll now have to pay EXTRA for that. The airlines market this as a "cost savings for the consumer", but that's a blatant lie...it's nothing more than a fare increase for them. They've proven that on the domestic sector, now they're going after the international.
But hey, it's never about the customer, it's all about the shareholder's return!
AWACSooner wrote:wn676 wrote:Mir wrote:
By paying more, of course.
Kind of goes without saying, doesn't it? I'm all for getting a deal, but if I'm really not up for dealing with the Basic Econ experience, there are other fare classes available. Pay more up front and worry less about incidentals.
I'm sorry, but I just can't stand the posts that just state "pay more" for what you used to get for the price you pay now. I've said it before and I'll say it again, this "economy minus" product offered by the big 3 is nothing more than a SCAM...that same $XXX airfare you're paying right now for that free checked bag and meal on the trans-atlantic flight will get you NONE of that with this introduction...you'll now have to pay EXTRA for that. The airlines market this as a "cost savings for the consumer", but that's a blatant lie...it's nothing more than a fare increase for them. They've proven that on the domestic sector, now they're going after the international.
But hey, it's never about the customer, it's all about the shareholder's return!
CobraKai wrote:AWACSooner wrote:wn676 wrote:
Except that you were getting more for the price you pay now. AA has been matching ULCCs with an arguably superior product for years. If you ever looked into it, you would see that AA's O (lowest) fares were NK fares + bag fees + seat assignment. The prices were actually configured that way, yet NK continued to print money and grow market share because people are too lazy to figure that out own their own. So they now charge you more for what you used to get for free, you will get the service that the current ticket price is worth.
As to the shareholders, well they do own the company, and anyone who has money in a retirement account should be glad that corporations are run to maximize shareholder returns.
The lie is that people will pay a few dollars more for a better product - millions of $$ have been lost chasing that.
commavia wrote:Well that's between the "bean counters" in corporate travel departments and the people in those corporations' HR departments who have trouble attracting or retaining people who refuse to be uncomfortable on business travel. This is no different than corporations steadily forcing employees to downgrade from First to Business, and then in many cases to Premium Economy as its become more available, and Coach in some cases, etc. If employees are that unhappy about companies forcing them to book basic economy fares on long flights, they should tell their employer about it. And in the meantime, AA will adjust its capacity and revenue management accordingly based on however corporate travelers behave. Although, needless to say, this AA executive's quoted comments and intuitive common sense would imply that these fare buckets are going to be managed in such a way that corporate/business travelers aren't really the ones primarily targeted, anyway.
Newbiepilot wrote:The bean counters in charge of corporate travel decisions love them especially since corporate travel companies like Concur let the companies define the rules. They don't care if an employee has to sit in a middle seat in the last row, get little to no frequent flyer benefits, and still has to arrive prepared for a meeting. They saved the company $40. Concur and similar corporate travel websites let people choose day, time and select airlines within a specified price range. People who would have selected AA might chose DL or UA so that they can earn full frequent flyer miles, get seat assignments, etc. I don't know many people who book Norwegian, WOW, etc for business travel.
Antarius wrote:cledaybuck wrote:Are they actually going to compete on price with these fares or just give you less for what you were paying before? Based on how basic economy rolled out domestically, I know which why I am betting.
That is my only issue. This just adjusts the basic product to the old baseline price and everything else gets more expensive.
ojjunior wrote:bgm wrote:flyingclrs727 wrote:
Turkish Airlines serves excellent food even in economy, has a 2 bag limit, and still has excellent prices and comfort to Europe.
Flying to Europe, especially Western Europe from the US via IST is quite a detour. Not to mention the instability in Turkey right now would deter a lot of people from using that option.
Will this instability hold someone at the airport? I don't think so...
If any Country currently with problems would offer a risk to the passengers we would have most of South American and African airports empty,for instance...
stlgph wrote:ojjunior wrote:bgm wrote:
Flying to Europe, especially Western Europe from the US via IST is quite a detour. Not to mention the instability in Turkey right now would deter a lot of people from using that option.
Will this instability hold someone at the airport? I don't think so...
If any Country currently with problems would offer a risk to the passengers we would have most of South American and African airports empty,for instance...
Nope, it will not stop anyone from connecting in Turkey.
Turkish has done quite well filling their seats with a number of $500-$600 airfares from the U.S. to western Europe via Istanbul. LOT Polish has also done well through Warsaw.
Brickell305 wrote:Antarius wrote:cledaybuck wrote:Are they actually going to compete on price with these fares or just give you less for what you were paying before? Based on how basic economy rolled out domestically, I know which why I am betting.
That is my only issue. This just adjusts the basic product to the old baseline price and everything else gets more expensive.
This is what I suspect will happen as well. We've seen it time and time again as "unbundling" has taken over the airline industry. As more and more gets removed from being paid for in the base fare, there is no reduction in price. Just consumers paying extra for what was previously included.
Varsity1 wrote:stlgph wrote:ojjunior wrote:
Will this instability hold someone at the airport? I don't think so...
If any Country currently with problems would offer a risk to the passengers we would have most of South American and African airports empty,for instance...
Nope, it will not stop anyone from connecting in Turkey.
Turkish has done quite well filling their seats with a number of $500-$600 airfares from the U.S. to western Europe via Istanbul. LOT Polish has also done well through Warsaw.
anyone? anyone..
Quite a ridiculous claim.
Varsity1 wrote:stlgph wrote:ojjunior wrote:
Will this instability hold someone at the airport? I don't think so...
If any Country currently with problems would offer a risk to the passengers we would have most of South American and African airports empty,for instance...
Nope, it will not stop anyone from connecting in Turkey.
Turkish has done quite well filling their seats with a number of $500-$600 airfares from the U.S. to western Europe via Istanbul. LOT Polish has also done well through Warsaw.
anyone? anyone..
Quite a ridiculous claim.
stlgph wrote:Varsity1 wrote:stlgph wrote:
Nope, it will not stop anyone from connecting in Turkey.
Turkish has done quite well filling their seats with a number of $500-$600 airfares from the U.S. to western Europe via Istanbul. LOT Polish has also done well through Warsaw.
anyone? anyone..
Quite a ridiculous claim.
Sure, since I work for a global financial news agency and have interviewed Temel Kotil a number of times. I'll make sure to email his secretary and tell him *you* said he doesn't know what he's talking about. Hope the response for a wait doesn't get in the way of you performing your duties of fetching bags at the airport.
jnev3289 wrote:CobraKai wrote:AWACSooner wrote:
Except that you were getting more for the price you pay now. AA has been matching ULCCs with an arguably superior product for years. If you ever looked into it, you would see that AA's O (lowest) fares were NK fares + bag fees + seat assignment. The prices were actually configured that way, yet NK continued to print money and grow market share because people are too lazy to figure that out own their own. So they now charge you more for what you used to get for free, you will get the service that the current ticket price is worth.
As to the shareholders, well they do own the company, and anyone who has money in a retirement account should be glad that corporations are run to maximize shareholder returns.
The lie is that people will pay a few dollars more for a better product - millions of $$ have been lost chasing that.
Yea, it really sucked when jetBlue went under from offering DirecTV and more legroom... Such a shame
AWACSooner wrote:wn676 wrote:Mir wrote:
By paying more, of course.
Kind of goes without saying, doesn't it? I'm all for getting a deal, but if I'm really not up for dealing with the Basic Econ experience, there are other fare classes available. Pay more up front and worry less about incidentals.
I'm sorry, but I just can't stand the posts that just state "pay more" for what you used to get for the price you pay now. I've said it before and I'll say it again, this "economy minus" product offered by the big 3 is nothing more than a SCAM...that same $XXX airfare you're paying right now for that free checked bag and meal on the trans-atlantic flight will get you NONE of that with this introduction...you'll now have to pay EXTRA for that. The airlines market this as a "cost savings for the consumer", but that's a blatant lie...it's nothing more than a fare increase for them. They've proven that on the domestic sector, now they're going after the international.
But hey, it's never about the customer, it's all about the shareholder's return!
AWACSooner wrote:jnev3289 wrote:CobraKai wrote:
Except that you were getting more for the price you pay now. AA has been matching ULCCs with an arguably superior product for years. If you ever looked into it, you would see that AA's O (lowest) fares were NK fares + bag fees + seat assignment. The prices were actually configured that way, yet NK continued to print money and grow market share because people are too lazy to figure that out own their own. So they now charge you more for what you used to get for free, you will get the service that the current ticket price is worth.
As to the shareholders, well they do own the company, and anyone who has money in a retirement account should be glad that corporations are run to maximize shareholder returns.
The lie is that people will pay a few dollars more for a better product - millions of $$ have been lost chasing that.
Yea, it really sucked when jetBlue went under from offering DirecTV and more legroom... Such a shame
Or Southwest from those two free checked bags and NO CHANGE FEES...and only what, 1-2 quarterly losses in the last 45 years?
smh (but not at your post)
jnev3289 wrote:CobraKai wrote:AWACSooner wrote:
Except that you were getting more for the price you pay now. AA has been matching ULCCs with an arguably superior product for years. If you ever looked into it, you would see that AA's O (lowest) fares were NK fares + bag fees + seat assignment. The prices were actually configured that way, yet NK continued to print money and grow market share because people are too lazy to figure that out own their own. So they now charge you more for what you used to get for free, you will get the service that the current ticket price is worth.
As to the shareholders, well they do own the company, and anyone who has money in a retirement account should be glad that corporations are run to maximize shareholder returns.
The lie is that people will pay a few dollars more for a better product - millions of $$ have been lost chasing that.
Yea, it really sucked when jetBlue went under from offering DirecTV and more legroom... Such a shame
CobraKai wrote:jnev3289 wrote:CobraKai wrote:
Except that you were getting more for the price you pay now. AA has been matching ULCCs with an arguably superior product for years. If you ever looked into it, you would see that AA's O (lowest) fares were NK fares + bag fees + seat assignment. The prices were actually configured that way, yet NK continued to print money and grow market share because people are too lazy to figure that out own their own. So they now charge you more for what you used to get for free, you will get the service that the current ticket price is worth.
As to the shareholders, well they do own the company, and anyone who has money in a retirement account should be glad that corporations are run to maximize shareholder returns.
The lie is that people will pay a few dollars more for a better product - millions of $$ have been lost chasing that.
Yea, it really sucked when jetBlue went under from offering DirecTV and more legroom... Such a shame
Nice strawman, or is B6 is dominating the domestic market? BTW, don't they charge bag fees? It seems they are seeing some of the same market forces that other are.
How much did AA lose on more room throughout coach? Even when only charging a $5 premium people weren't willing to pay more. How many carriers aren't seeing the take-up on the economy plus seats that they initially forecast? How many "premium" airlines have come and gone?
It is the ULCCs all over the world that are growing like weeds and giving more established airlines fits. I don't understand how people can't see that.
jnev3289 wrote:CobraKai wrote:jnev3289 wrote:
Yea, it really sucked when jetBlue went under from offering DirecTV and more legroom... Such a shame
Nice strawman, or is B6 is dominating the domestic market? BTW, don't they charge bag fees? It seems they are seeing some of the same market forces that other are.
How much did AA lose on more room throughout coach? Even when only charging a $5 premium people weren't willing to pay more. How many carriers aren't seeing the take-up on the economy plus seats that they initially forecast? How many "premium" airlines have come and gone?
It is the ULCCs all over the world that are growing like weeds and giving more established airlines fits. I don't understand how people can't see that.
Oh, you have to "dominate the market" to be successful now? What a joke