First Airbus A380 parked amid search for new operator

Ammad · Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:35 pm

Singapore Airlines said it had parked the aircraft ahead of the transfer back to its owner. Its last commercial flight was to London in June.

"It is correct that the aircraft has been removed from service ahead of its return to the lessor in October," a spokesperson for the airline said by email.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/firs ... ector.html

I remember first commercial flight of A380 and now we are witnessing first real retirement of A380 ahead of schedule.

Flighty · Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:40 pm

The gauntlet has been thrown down on the A380 secondary market.

KICT · Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:41 pm

Would this be 9V-SQA?

ikolkyo · Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:43 pm

KICT wrote:
Would this be 9V-SQA?

9V-SKA

KiloRomeoDelta · Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:54 pm

I am still hoping Southwest would pick up a few of these and convert them to all-Economy free-for-all seating 800 seater monsters! Imagine the joy of getting boarding position J37 or K49, and the adventure of walking across two decks looking for that coveted empty seat.

I know I know this is not gonna happen but a guy can dream, isn't it?

Polot · Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:02 pm

Flighty wrote:
The gauntlet has been thrown down on the A380 secondary market.

The real gauntlet will be when the later builds start to become available. As an early bird that essentially had to be rewired by hand 9V-SKA doesn't really stand a great chance of avoiding the scrapper.

bluejuice · Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:23 pm

KiloRomeoDelta wrote:
I am still hoping Southwest would pick up a few of these and convert them to all-Economy free-for-all seating 800 seater monsters! Imagine the joy of getting boarding position J37 or K49, and the adventure of walking across two decks looking for that coveted empty seat.

I know I know this is not gonna happen but a guy can dream, isn't it?

Imagine being the poor person holding a Group R boarding pass. R50 will spend 30 minutes looking for the lastempty seat. Each boarding will require 300+ wheelchairs for preboarders with "medical conditions."

BN727227Ultra · Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:55 pm

KiloRomeoDelta wrote:
I am still hoping Southwest would pick up a few of these and convert them to all-Economy free-for-all seating 800 seater monsters! Imagine the joy of getting boarding position J37 or K49, and the adventure of walking across two decks looking for that coveted empty seat.

I know I know this is not gonna happen but a guy can dream, isn't it?

You mispronounced Ryanair...

2175301 · Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:16 pm

Polot wrote:
Flighty wrote:
The gauntlet has been thrown down on the A380 secondary market.

The real gauntlet will be when the later builds start to become available. As an early bird that essentially had to be rewired by hand 9V-SKA doesn't really stand a great chance of avoiding the scrapper.

I disagree with that. The air-frame has a lot of useful life in it --- and if there was any kind of real market demand it will be sold and utilized by someone.

That it has not been sold or leased and will likely be scrapped is a clear indication that there is not a strong Used A380 market. I am not sure that the later builds being released in a year or two are going to all be sold or leased again either. Perhaps a few; but, I expect no more than that.

Have a great day,

GamingPolaris · Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:19 pm

BN727227Ultra wrote:
KiloRomeoDelta wrote:
I am still hoping Southwest would pick up a few of these and convert them to all-Economy free-for-all seating 800 seater monsters! Imagine the joy of getting boarding position J37 or K49, and the adventure of walking across two decks looking for that coveted empty seat.

I know I know this is not gonna happen but a guy can dream, isn't it?

You mispronounced Ryanair...

You misspelled 'misspelled.' Lmao

evanb · Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:42 pm

Polot wrote:
The real gauntlet will be when the later builds start to become available. As an early bird that essentially had to be rewired by hand 9V-SKA doesn't really stand a great chance of avoiding the scrapper.

Agreed. It was the 5th A380 off the production line (two prototypes and two production models before it). The first B787 to make it to scheduled service was number 7, so it's a testament to Airbus that it found 11 years of commercial service given the teething problems, particularly the wiring issues.

ScottB · Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:47 pm

Ammad wrote:
Singapore Airlines said it had parked the aircraft ahead of the transfer back to its owner. Its last commercial flight was to London in June.

It seems somewhat telling that during a relatively busy part of the year for travel in the northern hemisphere, SQ has had enough slack in its A380 fleet to simply park the first one even though the replacement has not yet been delivered.

KarelXWB · Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:48 pm

ScottB wrote:

It seems somewhat telling that during a relatively busy part of the year for travel in the northern hemisphere, SQ has had enough slack in its A380 fleet to simply park the first one even though the replacement has not yet been delivered.

SQ has no other choice. The lease contract expired and extending was not an option. And the replacement aircraft is not yet ready for delivery.

ScottB · Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:52 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
SQ has no other choice. The lease contract expired and extending was not an option. And the replacement aircraft is not yet ready for delivery.

Well, the return to the lessor doesn't happen until October. Would it really require three months to prepare the aircraft for lease return? That's a lot of lease money to pay for an unproductive asset.

KarelXWB · Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:05 pm

ScottB wrote:

Well, the return to the lessor doesn't happen until October. Would it really require three months to prepare the aircraft for lease return? That's a lot of lease money to pay for an unproductive asset.

Yes it takes three months to prepare the aircraft, including 1 month for re-paint.

par13del · Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:10 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Yes it takes three months to prepare the aircraft, including 1 month for re-paint.

The month to re-paint is based on whose timeline, Airbus or SQ, I believe the a/c is still with SQ.
Is there a business case for Airbus to offer the reconditioning services by having airlines fly their a/c back to France, I assume some carriers will struggle to prepare an A380 for return to the owners.

aemoreira1981 · Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:13 pm

I fully expect this A380 to be parted out. It has an unusual wiring system, making its maintenance more expensive. Other early birds that had to be re-wired, I expect to meet the same fate as well.

JannEejit · Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:43 pm

Excuse my ignorance but how often does an aircraft require to be fully rewired in it's operational lifetime ? And I don't mean the peculiarities of early entry A380's.

Utah744 · Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:47 pm

BN727227Ultra wrote:
KiloRomeoDelta wrote:
I am still hoping Southwest would pick up a few of these and convert them to all-Economy free-for-all seating 800 seater monsters! Imagine the joy of getting boarding position J37 or K49, and the adventure of walking across two decks looking for that coveted empty seat.

I know I know this is not gonna happen but a guy can dream, isn't it?

You mispronounced Ryanair...

Fantastic post. Laughed for a minute.

Waterbomber · Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:49 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I fully expect this A380 to be parted out. It has an unusual wiring system, making its maintenance more expensive. Other early birds that had to be re-wired, I expect to meet the same fate as well.

Wiring rarely needs maintenance. When it does, there isnt a single engineer in the world that knows every wire by memory, they will just have to follow the diagrams and the tags.

If someone needs an A380, they ll pick it up.
I dont think that there is much demand for spare parts or engines. The A380 fleet is not that huge.
So it makes more sense IMO to keep it in one piece and see what happens, sell parts individually only if a decent value can be achieved.
The package freighter market should find interest for them sooner or later.

jumbojet · Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:18 am

Ladies and gentlemen,

I believe we have our very first A380 super jumbo hotel. Germany has a 747 for a hotel, now, Germany can have an A380 for a super jumbo hotel to.

lutfi · Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:16 am

[list=][/list]

JannEejit wrote:
Excuse my ignorance but how often does an aircraft require to be fully rewired in it's operational lifetime ? And I don't mean the peculiarities of early entry A380's.

Wiring is "on condition". You would basically never expect to replace the "operational" airframe wiring, except for incidents (fire/ animal chews through it etc) Some of the "customer" wiring in the cabin (PTV's, power outlets etc) will get replaced as and when the airline does a cabin/ seat refit (normally every 7-8 years for longhaul aircraft)

flee · Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:58 am

Whether it flies again relies on how much the lease of the second hand aircraft will be. If they are prepared to settle for a much lower amount, the economics will work out and airlines will look at it as one of their options.

SQ did not extend the lease because they have already ordered its replacement.

Aither · Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:02 am

We have "parked" some 787s as well... or maybe this was just about standard fleet management.
These A380s are "early birds", probably not performing as good as the latest ones. With a standard seat configuration the seat cost is still the best and the ownership should be very low. It can make a lot business sense for some high volumes low yield markets, in particular with these seats are sold under some holidays package.

lightsaber · Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:08 am

JannEejit wrote:
Excuse my ignorance but how often does an aircraft require to be fully rewired in it's operational lifetime ? And I don't mean the peculiarities of early entry A380's.

About every 12 years. More often for certain salt environments.

A big selling point of the A380 was that the wiring could be built so cheaply that instead of an expensive rewire, it would be a quick replacement. The wire bundles would be built and tested at Hamburg and just put into the existing A380.

The first builds... need custom wire bundles built in the aircraft because the ports for the wires are too small for the connectors due to the Catia IV/Catia V error. (oops...)

Some new wiring goes longer. But basically, it costs so much to inspect wiring at 1/3rd of its life that it is cheaper to replace the wiring. Everything in an aircraft must be inspected at 1/3rd of the certified life. Fixing wiring is one of the more expensive parts of the heavy maintenance cycle. So expensive, everything that can be done to extend certified maintenance intervals is pretty much tried.

The system to cut costs in the A380 was a great idea. Bummer on the initial execution.

Newer aircraft have fiber optics. Less to replace.

Lightsaber

NWAROOSTER · Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:08 am

This aircraft has NO future as Delta does not want it. Sarcasm intended.......... :old:

lightsaber · Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:15 am

flee wrote:
Whether it flies again relies on how much the lease of the second hand aircraft will be. If they are prepared to settle for a much lower amount, the economics will work out and airlines will look at it as one of their options.

SQ did not extend the lease because they have already ordered its replacement.

The lease cost is a small part of the operating costs. These aircraft will cost quite a bit every 12 years and another 12 years is about all they will be economically good for.

SQ did this as it was more economical to replace than repair.

The first A380 examples are doomed. Cest la vie.

Lightsaber

alyusuph · Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:47 am

lightsaber wrote:
flee wrote:
Whether it flies again relies on how much the lease of the second hand aircraft will be. If they are prepared to settle for a much lower amount, the economics will work out and airlines will look at it as one of their options.

SQ did not extend the lease because they have already ordered its replacement.

The lease cost is a small part of the operating costs. These aircraft will cost quite a bit every 12 years and another 12 years is about all they will be economically good for.

SQ did this as it was more economical to replace than repair.

The first A380 examples are doomed. Cest la vie.

Lightsaber

It is sad to see the more modern A380 parting ways at the same time with the much older 744s.

starrion · Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:48 am

Is the issue with the wiring primarily the aircraft operating wiring or the customer PTV/power wiring? If a holiday operator picked it up and opted to omit PTV/seat power, would that make it feasible?

SkyVoice · Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:01 am

Well? What do y'all think?

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairl ... 014992.jpg

CARST · Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:28 am

jumbojet wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen,

I believe we have our very first A380 super jumbo hotel. Germany has a 747 for a hotel, now, Germany can have an A380 for a super jumbo hotel to.

The Jumbo Stay Hostel is in Arlanda, Sweden (ARN = Arlanda is the airport of Stockholm, Swedens capital). There is no such thing in Germany AFAIK. But perhaps the Swedes pick up this A380, the Jumbo Hostel is sold out most of the year...

SkyVoice wrote:
Well? What do y'all think?

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairl ... 014992.jpg

I'm not a fan of the A380, but in that Delta livery it really looks good. But as much as Delta loves picking up old jets with low accquisition costs, I don't think they'll jump on this opportunity, because they would at least want to get a sizeable fleet and not end up with a odd sub-fleet. Also now that they are retiring their 747s, this would a jump to far in size from the next smaller plane in their fleet.

lightsaber wrote:
About every 12 years. More often for certain salt environments.

A big selling point of the A380 was that the wiring could be built so cheaply that instead of an expensive rewire, it would be a quick replacement. The wire bundles would be built and tested at Hamburg and just put into the existing A380.

The first builds... need custom wire bundles built in the aircraft because the ports for the wires are too small for the connectors due to the Catia IV/Catia V error. (oops...)

Some new wiring goes longer. But basically, it costs so much to inspect wiring at 1/3rd of its life that it is cheaper to replace the wiring. Everything in an aircraft must be inspected at 1/3rd of the certified life. Fixing wiring is one of the more expensive parts of the heavy maintenance cycle. So expensive, everything that can be done to extend certified maintenance intervals is pretty much tried.

The system to cut costs in the A380 was a great idea. Bummer on the initial execution.

Newer aircraft have fiber optics. Less to replace.

Lightsaber

Very interesting, thank you for sharing this Information. So far I thought that the cables never get changed in a plane, not even at a D check (or however it is called these days). Of course except if someone discovers damage / missing isolation.

VV · Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:33 am

Who is the lucky owner?

WIederling · Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:49 am

lutfi wrote:
[list=][/list]
JannEejit wrote:
Excuse my ignorance but how often does an aircraft require to be fully rewired in it's operational lifetime ? And I don't mean the peculiarities of early entry A380's.

Wiring is "on condition". You would basically never expect to replace the "operational" airframe wiring, except for incidents (fire/ animal chews through it etc) Some of the "customer" wiring in the cabin (PTV's, power outlets etc) will get replaced as and when the airline does a cabin/ seat refit (normally every 7-8 years for longhaul aircraft)

A major issue was _room_ for IFE wiring afair.
And that will probably need significant changes for a new customers.

zkojq · Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:57 am

ikolkyo wrote:
KICT wrote:
Would this be 9V-SQA?

9V-SKA

I was in Toulouse the day 9V-SKA was wheeled out of the factory. This news makes me feel very old. :old:

I've seen it fly into Auckland on occasion over the past few years, which is nice.

Noshow · Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:03 am

Will it get a heavy check in any case? Even if it finds no new lease and might get disassembled? So does the check prove there is a next customer?

TWA772LR · Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:10 am

The world's largest single source of Coke cans is upon us!

Bealine251 · Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:33 am

Surprised British Airways haven't been mentioned yet or have I missed something. We all know they are looking around and doesn't this bird also have RR Trent 970s?

wa5 · Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:49 am

How many hours / cycles does this bird have up? might be a cheap way into the ultimate personal jet...

george77300 · Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:52 am

Bealine251 wrote:
Surprised British Airways haven't been mentioned yet or have I missed something. We all know they are looking around and doesn't this bird also have RR Trent 970s?

SQ birds do indeed have the RR engines.

george77300 · Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:52 am

wa5 wrote:
How many hours / cycles does this bird have up? might be a cheap way into the ultimate personal jet...

I love your idea of cheap. Haha

Morten42 · Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:57 am

How much heavier is this airframe compared to the later builds?

SomebodyInTLS · Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:49 am

All the talk of the wiring is missing one key ingredient... certification. The early builds not not only have the physical differences (wiring, wings produced before all the fixes, various other weight-saving updates (e.g. bonded window frames) not applied) and consequent economic deficiencies, their uniqueness also makes maintenance and paperwork a big headache compared to a later build.

I think these are the reasons why people say the early builds will hit the scrapper early.

Waterbomber · Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:53 am

lightsaber wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
Excuse my ignorance but how often does an aircraft require to be fully rewired in it's operational lifetime ? And I don't mean the peculiarities of early entry A380's.

About every 12 years. More often for certain salt environments.

A big selling point of the A380 was that the wiring could be built so cheaply that instead of an expensive rewire, it would be a quick replacement. The wire bundles would be built and tested at Hamburg and just put into the existing A380.

The first builds... need custom wire bundles built in the aircraft because the ports for the wires are too small for the connectors due to the Catia IV/Catia V error. (oops...)

Some new wiring goes longer. But basically, it costs so much to inspect wiring at 1/3rd of its life that it is cheaper to replace the wiring. Everything in an aircraft must be inspected at 1/3rd of the certified life. Fixing wiring is one of the more expensive parts of the heavy maintenance cycle. So expensive, everything that can be done to extend certified maintenance intervals is pretty much tried.

The system to cut costs in the A380 was a great idea. Bummer on the initial execution.

Newer aircraft have fiber optics. Less to replace.

Lightsaber

I have never heard of complete wiring inspections as a lot of wiring can't be accessed or inspected without removal. On the A380 though, given the dimensions of the airplane, it should be easy to access most of the wiring and inspect it. While it takes quite some manhours to inspect all the wiring, it should be manageable and not kill its business model as a used aircraft.
SQ probably just doesn't need more A380's, so they have to send them back, unless they can get a deal that they can't refuse.
SQ has a policy of maintaining a young fleet, so that also plays a role.

While the first frames do have value as scrap for parts, once you start parting out 1 or 2 airframes of each engine type, the spares market is well-covered, especially given that production and the supply chain are active. You can't charge more for a used part than the manufacturer of the parts is charging for new parts.

AntonioMartin · Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:54 am

KiloRomeoDelta wrote:
I am still hoping Southwest would pick up a few of these and convert them to all-Economy free-for-all seating 800 seater monsters! Imagine the joy of getting boarding position J37 or K49, and the adventure of walking across two decks looking for that coveted empty seat.

I know I know this is not gonna happen but a guy can dream, isn't it?

I hope Delta gets one if only to claim that once again, my favorite airline in the world flies the largest commercial aircraft! Oh we can dream lol

Jayafe · Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:11 am

SkyVoice wrote:
Well? What do y'all think?

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairl ... 014992.jpg

Looks beautiful, shame on US3....

mxaxai · Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:48 am

lightsaber wrote:
Newer aircraft have fiber optics. Less to replace.

Lightsaber

My impression was that the only aircraft to feature fiber optics today is the Japanese P-1. The official reason I was told was that precisely the ageing characteristics of fiber optics were too untested.

WIederling · Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:56 am

mxaxai wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Newer aircraft have fiber optics. Less to replace.

Lightsaber

My impression was that the only aircraft to feature fiber optics today is the Japanese P-1. The official reason I was told was that precisely the ageing characteristics of fiber optics were too untested.

Is this actually used for anything else beyond replacing some CAT 5/6/7 comparable network cable?
i.e. standard Ethernet connections were you just replace the PHY layer with fiber?

Revelation · Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:11 am

Polot wrote:
Flighty wrote:
The gauntlet has been thrown down on the A380 secondary market.

The real gauntlet will be when the later builds start to become available. As an early bird that essentially had to be rewired by hand 9V-SKA doesn't really stand a great chance of avoiding the scrapper.

I highly doubt the situation would be different if a later build was available today. Care to suggest who would be picking up that gauntlet? Seems to me MH had made its new build A380s available for quite a while before finding no takers and deciding the best use of the expensive capital was to try to make a go of the pilgrimage market. It's the kind of thing a government controlled airline does, doubling down on its mistakes. In the commercial world, those birds would be parked too. Of course in a commercially controlled world an airline like MH or TG would never be buying A380s to begin with. At this point in time as opposed to the early 200s the commercial realities are far more visible and it's hard to see what airline will want to operate used A380s in the future.

Planesmart · Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:35 am

Comments regarding the fate of this aircraft are premature.

At this stage of the lease, both parties will be in negotiation, for the lease of the new aircraft, and the sale / future of the aircraft nearing the end of lease.

Total hours / cycles may be close to the upper limit of the lease T&C's, which exceeding triggers additional payments. And for a lease from new, withdrawal 3-4 months before lease end is not unusual, to undertake the work required to handover the aircraft in as agreed condition.

Although the lease T&C's will set out the formula for the final balloon payment, this will all be up for re-negotiation, especially when bundled with new aircraft / new leases, as in this case.

SQ will likely be liable for the cost of a re-paint, interior refurbishment and pro-rata maintenance and inspection costs. Every possible attempt will be made to have part or all of these costs forgiven.

Also, we are not privy to A's contingent exposure, in respect to the existence of a buyback. There may be three parties involved, as well as possibly the parting industry, or even a new operator.

jumbojet · Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:49 am

CARST wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen,

I believe we have our very first A380 super jumbo hotel. Germany has a 747 for a hotel, now, Germany can have an A380 for a super jumbo hotel to.

The Jumbo Stay Hostel is in Arlanda, Sweden (ARN = Arlanda is the airport of Stockholm, Swedens capital). There is no such thing in Germany AFAIK. But perhaps the Swedes pick up this A380, the Jumbo Hostel is sold out most of the year...

[.

Damn, do I have my European countries wrong? I thought the 747 Hostel was in Germany. I know there is a Holiday Inn Express across the street from it, I stayed there.

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