At the same time COPA announced it is adding a second daily to COR, Gustavo Esusy, CM Regional Manager for Argentina, said that the airline is looking at further cities to serve in the country with Puerto Iguazu IGR, Salta SLA and Tucuman TUC being looked at to be connected with its PTY hub. Esusy also said its operations in Argentina are booming, with a 90% LF.

http://www.reportur.com/argentina/2017/ ... argentino/

Great news for SLA and TUC. Not sure about PTY-IGR but Ciudad del Este on the Paraguayan side of the triple border has been after CM for some time.

2travel2know2 wrote:

Great news for SLA and TUC. Not sure about PTY-IGR but Ciudad del Este on the Paraguayan side of the triple border has been after CM for some time.

I concur with you in regards to IGR, but we need to consider the following:

1. The whole area Puerto Iguazú - Foz do Iguacu - Ciudad del Este has a population/catchment area of nearly 800.000 people. Granted, maybe not the wealthiest clientele, but Ciudad del Este has a decent amount of trade and that is usually good for airlines. They may also attract passengers from other brazilian small cities in the state of Parana.
2. COPA can fly there with a 737-700 with 124 passengers. Three - four times per week would not be unreasonable.
3. COPA is running out of "new" places to fly to in South America, so the time has come to think outside the box and take a few risks.
4. AIR EUROPA is also going to fly to IGR next year, so I wonder if the airport is offering some kind of incentives.

jmmadrid wrote:

I concur with you in regards to IGR, but we need to consider the following:

1. The whole area Puerto Iguazú - Foz do Iguacu - Ciudad del Este has a population/catchment area of nearly 800.000 people. Granted, maybe not the wealthiest clientele, but Ciudad del Este has a decent amount of trade and that is usually good for airlines. They may also attract passengers from other brazilian small cities in the state of Parana.
2. COPA can fly there with a 737-700 with 124 passengers. Three - four times per week would not be unreasonable.
3. COPA is running out of "new" places to fly to in South America, so the time has come to think outside the box and take a few risks.
4. AIR EUROPA is also going to fly to IGR next year, so I wonder if the airport is offering some kind of incentives.

1. Then if the trade is in Ciudad del Este, why CM to IGR and no to AGT instead?
2. Thrice weekly may involve the crew spending several nights in destination. Not sure if same crew could fly PTY-IGR/AGT-PTY.
3. CM for sure has to be looking for new out-of-the-box destinations in South America: PBM, BEL, SLZ, FOR, SSA, GCB, CGR, CWB, CBB, AQP. ARI, IQQ, CCP, PZO, CUE... But leisure destinations like IQT, CJC, BRC or PMV may only work if properly marketed.
4. Looks like Iguazú Falls needs a direct link with Europe, even without the incentives the demand from Europe is there.

jmmadrid wrote:

4. AIR EUROPA is also going to fly to IGR next year, so I wonder if the airport is offering some kind of incentives.

Not the airport but the Province of Misiones is.

2travel2know2 wrote:

1. Then if the trade is in Ciudad del Este, why CM to IGR and no to AGT instead?
4. Looks like Iguazú Falls needs a direct link with Europe, even without the incentives the demand from Europe is there.

CIudad del Este main business is dodgy business: mainly contraband, drug trafficking and money laundering, catering to Brazil and Argentina. It is not the most law abiding place on earth. There is zero tourism there, except day shopping trips from BR & ARG. The Ciudad del Este area has been on the US terrorism watch list for some time, for money laundering ties with Arab radical groups (two of the main ethnic groups in Ciudad del Este are Syrian/Lebanese). Rule of thumb: if some major creep is running away from law enforcement in Buenos Aires, chances are he/she is hiding near or in Ciudad del Este, living under an assumed identity. In short, not a place for CM to do business. AGT alone is littered with old freighters (747s & DC-8s) that just landed there, God only knows their pedigree, and are rotting under the subtropical sun.

Tourism, the big driver for traffic for the area, is in Argentina and Brazil.. And the high end subset, mostly stays on the Argentina side. Hence why UX and now CM are looking at IGR.

PTY has the ability to be an Emirates-like (though smaller, obviously) connection for N-S and NW-SE travel as well as anything in Central America.

With an A321LR or a 737-10MAX they could literally take someone from any corner of North America to any corner of South America and Vice-Versa - secondary markets like Mendoza to Chicago or Montevideo to Montreal . Sure LATAM and others could compete on Hub-Spoke routes such as SCL-XXX, but what if the person wanted to go to any of the smaller cities? COPA could offer a much nicer business class product than LATAM on the entire routing with one of the most convenient airports to connect in.

There isn't a comparable hub, other than maybe Miami (which is too far East for West Coast to Deep SA) or Bogota (not nearly as efficient) that could do what Copa can do with an A321LR or 737-10MAX:


And that's not even taking into account Southern Mexico to the rest of Central/South America who would either have to backtrack or overfly to get to many destinations!

WorldFlier wrote:

COPA could offer a much nicer business class product than LATAM on the entire routing with one of the most convenient airports to connect in.

There isn't a comparable hub, other than maybe Miami (which is too far East for West Coast to Deep SA) or Bogota (not nearly as efficient) that could do what Copa can do with an A321LR or 737-10MAX:

IMHO COPA has three main challenges/weaknesses/threats/opportunities (depending on your perspective):

1. Increase capacity: They offer five and six daily flights to many destinations (SCL, GRU, HAV, MIA, LIM, BOG, SDQ, MEX). Obviously the frequency is appreciated by many, but they have reached a point where adding more flights at different times may not be that convenient, especially for a connecting-banks airline. Therefore, they have to start thinking about bigger planes. Of course the A321 would be a fantastic choice, but for some reason they buy only Boeing.

2. Improve their Business Class: Their current offer is just ok. Nothing WOW about it. They could really innovate here and offer something similar to AA's Transcontinental Business Class, particularly on the longer red-eye flights to EZE, SCL and GRU. But of course, they would need a bigger plane (A321?)

3. Europe: They have made it absolutely clear over and over again that they have no intention to fly to Europe. However, I can't help but think how easy would it be for them to fill 787s to Madrid, Paris, London, Milan, Amsterdam, Rome, Barcelona and Frankfurt, especially with folks from secondary cities that lack direct service to those airports.

jmmadrid wrote:

WorldFlier wrote:

COPA could offer a much nicer business class product than LATAM on the entire routing with one of the most convenient airports to connect in.

There isn't a comparable hub, other than maybe Miami (which is too far East for West Coast to Deep SA) or Bogota (not nearly as efficient) that could do what Copa can do with an A321LR or 737-10MAX:

IMHO COPA has three main challenges/weaknesses/threats/opportunities (depending on your perspective):

1. Increase capacity: They offer five and six daily flights to many destinations (SCL, GRU, HAV, MIA, LIM, BOG, SDQ, MEX). Obviously the frequency is appreciated by many, but they have reached a point where adding more flights at different times may not be that convenient, especially for a connecting-banks airline. Therefore, they have to start thinking about bigger planes. Of course the A321 would be a fantastic choice, but for some reason they buy only Boeing.

2. Improve their Business Class: Their current offer is just ok. Nothing WOW about it. They could really innovate here and offer something similar to AA's Transcontinental Business Class, particularly on the longer red-eye flights to EZE, SCL and GRU. But of course, they would need a bigger plane (A321?)

3. Europe: They have made it absolutely clear over and over again that they have no intention to fly to Europe. However, I can't help but think how easy would it be for them to fill 787s to Madrid, Paris, London, Milan, Amsterdam, Rome, Barcelona and Frankfurt, especially with folks from secondary cities that lack direct service to those airports.

1. Part of the added capacity to selected markets could be done with flights to secondary airports within the same region like VCP for GRU, FLL/PBI/RSW for MIA, TLC for MEX or even VRA for HAV. And it's very likely, there could be a demand several days per week for CM to BWI for IAD, PVD or MHT for BOS, ONT for LAX, MKE for ORD, SJC for SFO and YHM for YYZ. Since the topic is Argentina, it's doubtful CM will be allowed in the secondary Buenos Aires airport where LCC FlyBlondy will operate.
2. If Frequency is what CM is strongest in right now, does it really need ME3 or posh Asian airline business class product? It's not that CM is flying +9 hour segments. Even with the array of destinations it has the current standard almost very bare business class is more than enough.
3. Since CM is sort of a fleet commonality freak, lets see if Boeing develops an ETOPS B737MAX ER version like the current B737-700/800ER available for CM to entice it to comfortably fly 100 J/Y passengers to at least MAD, BCN, AGP, TFS, SCQ, LIS, FNC, LON, MAN, DUB, PAR.

jmmadrid wrote:

WorldFlier wrote:

COPA could offer a much nicer business class product than LATAM on the entire routing with one of the most convenient airports to connect in.

There isn't a comparable hub, other than maybe Miami (which is too far East for West Coast to Deep SA) or Bogota (not nearly as efficient) that could do what Copa can do with an A321LR or 737-10MAX:

IMHO COPA has three main challenges/weaknesses/threats/opportunities (depending on your perspective):

1. Increase capacity: They offer five and six daily flights to many destinations (SCL, GRU, HAV, MIA, LIM, BOG, SDQ, MEX). Obviously the frequency is appreciated by many, but they have reached a point where adding more flights at different times may not be that convenient, especially for a connecting-banks airline. Therefore, they have to start thinking about bigger planes. Of course the A321 would be a fantastic choice, but for some reason they buy only Boeing.

2. Improve their Business Class: Their current offer is just ok. Nothing WOW about it. They could really innovate here and offer something similar to AA's Transcontinental Business Class, particularly on the longer red-eye flights to EZE, SCL and GRU. But of course, they would need a bigger plane (A321?)

3. Europe: They have made it absolutely clear over and over again that they have no intention to fly to Europe. However, I can't help but think how easy would it be for them to fill 787s to Madrid, Paris, London, Milan, Amsterdam, Rome, Barcelona and Frankfurt, especially with folks from secondary cities that lack direct service to those airports.

COPA has found a recipe for a license to print money and it is based on, among other things, keeping it simple. Its management has time and again said they intend to keep the fleet simple and reject sub fleets that complicate operations when the inevitable swap arises. While adding new premium cabins may be nice, CM would have to review its pricing and revenue strategies, as clearly those cabins would need to fetch a premium over today's business fares. Again. keeping it simple. From Argentina (has to be the same for Chile and Brazil) CM is not poaching the premium business traveler to JFK or MIA from AA or AR. Those take the overnight nonstops. COPA's niche is the multitude of connections via PTY to mostly leisure destinations. That said, within Argentina there are two scenarios, as COPA's management has admitted. From EZE it is mostly leisure traffic to the Caribbean and Cancun.with a dollop of everything else. COR and ROS have a more balanced business/leisure mix as both cities are industrial centers in their own right and the only competition thus far is from LATAM via SCL, GRU or LIM and soon Avianca via BOG and LIM from COR. Suspect MDZ is going to fall on the same category as COR & ROS. A good example is the wine industry traffic between Northern CA and Mendoza.

Europe? Again, CM is keeping it simple. CM would have to up its game to compete with the likes of LH, TK, IB, AF & KL and is the premium demand enough for the whole lot to make CM upend its business model? Or perhaps CM is better served by continuing to feed this traffic from secondary cities near PTY to the Europeans @ PTY? I frankly doubt someone from ROS or POA would consider flying to FRA or CDG via PTY... unless the fare is a steal. Does CM really want to be all things to all people?

dcajet wrote:

jmmadrid wrote:

WorldFlier wrote:

COPA could offer a much nicer business class product than LATAM on the entire routing with one of the most convenient airports to connect in.

There isn't a comparable hub, other than maybe Miami (which is too far East for West Coast to Deep SA) or Bogota (not nearly as efficient) that could do what Copa can do with an A321LR or 737-10MAX:

IMHO COPA has three main challenges/weaknesses/threats/opportunities (depending on your perspective):

1. Increase capacity: They offer five and six daily flights to many destinations (SCL, GRU, HAV, MIA, LIM, BOG, SDQ, MEX). Obviously the frequency is appreciated by many, but they have reached a point where adding more flights at different times may not be that convenient, especially for a connecting-banks airline. Therefore, they have to start thinking about bigger planes. Of course the A321 would be a fantastic choice, but for some reason they buy only Boeing.

2. Improve their Business Class: Their current offer is just ok. Nothing WOW about it. They could really innovate here and offer something similar to AA's Transcontinental Business Class, particularly on the longer red-eye flights to EZE, SCL and GRU. But of course, they would need a bigger plane (A321?)

3. Europe: They have made it absolutely clear over and over again that they have no intention to fly to Europe. However, I can't help but think how easy would it be for them to fill 787s to Madrid, Paris, London, Milan, Amsterdam, Rome, Barcelona and Frankfurt, especially with folks from secondary cities that lack direct service to those airports.

COPA has found a recipe for a license to print money and it is based on, among other things, keeping it simple. Its management has time and again said they intend to keep the fleet simple and reject sub fleets that complicate operations when the inevitable swap arises. While adding new premium cabins may be nice, CM would have to review its pricing and revenue strategies, as clearly those cabins would need to fetch a premium over today's business fares. Again. keeping it simple. From Argentina (has to be the same for Chile and Brazil) CM is not poaching the premium business traveler to JFK or MIA from AA or AR. Those take the overnight nonstops. COPA's niche is the multitude of connections via PTY to mostly leisure destinations. That said, within Argentina there are two scenarios, as COPA's management has admitted. From EZE it is mostly leisure traffic to the Caribbean and Cancun.with a dollop of everything else. COR and ROS have a more balanced business/leisure mix as both cities are industrial centers in their own right and the only competition thus far is from LATAM via SCL, GRU or LIM and soon Avianca via BOG and LIM from COR. Suspect MDZ is going to fall on the same category as COR & ROS. A good example is the wine industry traffic between Northern CA and Mendoza.

Europe? Again, CM is keeping it simple. CM would have to up its game to compete with the likes of LH, TK, IB, AF & KL and is the premium demand enough for the whole lot to make CM upend its business model? Or perhaps CM is better served by continuing to feed this traffic from secondary cities near PTY to the Europeans @ PTY? I frankly doubt someone from ROS or POA would consider flying to FRA or CDG via PTY... unless the fare is a steal. Does CM really want to be all things to all people?

It is much easier to ally yourself to carriers flying into PTY from Europe than fighting them.

COPA is focusing on it's core competency which is connecting anyone going N-S or S-N through Panama City, and the country is supportive of Visa-Free Transit (and Visa-Free Entry for many countries), unlike the USA. So a Ecuadorian flying to Frankfurt could connect many ways, but the least hassle would be Panama City.

Not the cheapest (but that's not their goal), but clearly the most efficient: (Random date between Quito and Frankfurt, Business Class)

https://www.google.com/flights/?f=0&gl= ... 09-12;sc=b

I think you guys have made very good points and I have no doubt that they represent COPA management´s approach.
However, I still think that COPA is about to reach its ceiling and if they want to grow they will have to think outside the box and innovate.
Part of its success is no doubt its fantastic location but also the fact that competition was weak. With AVIANCA and LATAM getting stronger, and a bunch of new airlines and routes from Argentina, if they want to remain leaders, they better start planning what they are going to do. Otherwise their glory might fade.
Maybe they need to hire someone from Norwegian´s strategic planning department?

dcajet wrote:

jmmadrid wrote:

4. AIR EUROPA is also going to fly to IGR next year, so I wonder if the airport is offering some kind of incentives.

Not the airport but the Province of Misiones is.

2travel2know2 wrote:

1. Then if the trade is in Ciudad del Este, why CM to IGR and no to AGT instead?
4. Looks like Iguazú Falls needs a direct link with Europe, even without the incentives the demand from Europe is there.

CIudad del Este main business is dodgy business: mainly contraband, drug trafficking and money laundering, catering to Brazil and Argentina. It is not the most law abiding place on earth. There is zero tourism there, except day shopping trips from BR & ARG. The Ciudad del Este area has been on the US terrorism watch list for some time, for money laundering ties with Arab radical groups (two of the main ethnic groups in Ciudad del Este are Syrian/Lebanese). Rule of thumb: if some major creep is running away from law enforcement in Buenos Aires, chances are he/she is hiding near or in Ciudad del Este, living under an assumed identity. In short, not a place for CM to do business. AGT alone is littered with old freighters (747s & DC-8s) that just landed there, God only knows their pedigree, and are rotting under the subtropical sun.

Tourism, the big driver for traffic for the area, is in Argentina and Brazil.. And the high end subset, mostly stays on the Argentina side. Hence why UX and now CM are looking at IGR.

Very offensive to generalise that Lebanese/Syrian ethnicities imply terror. Huge Lebanese/Syrian ethnicities in Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Venezuela, Ecuador, Colombia, Mexico, the USA, Canada, and the list goes in... get your facts together and stop posting stupidities!

ME720 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

jmmadrid wrote:

4. AIR EUROPA is also going to fly to IGR next year, so I wonder if the airport is offering some kind of incentives.

Not the airport but the Province of Misiones is.

2travel2know2 wrote:

1. Then if the trade is in Ciudad del Este, why CM to IGR and no to AGT instead?
4. Looks like Iguazú Falls needs a direct link with Europe, even without the incentives the demand from Europe is there.

CIudad del Este main business is dodgy business: mainly contraband, drug trafficking and money laundering, catering to Brazil and Argentina. It is not the most law abiding place on earth. There is zero tourism there, except day shopping trips from BR & ARG. The Ciudad del Este area has been on the US terrorism watch list for some time, for money laundering ties with Arab radical groups (two of the main ethnic groups in Ciudad del Este are Syrian/Lebanese). Rule of thumb: if some major creep is running away from law enforcement in Buenos Aires, chances are he/she is hiding near or in Ciudad del Este, living under an assumed identity. In short, not a place for CM to do business. AGT alone is littered with old freighters (747s & DC-8s) that just landed there, God only knows their pedigree, and are rotting under the subtropical sun.

Tourism, the big driver for traffic for the area, is in Argentina and Brazil.. And the high end subset, mostly stays on the Argentina side. Hence why UX and now CM are looking at IGR.

Very offensive to generalise that Lebanese/Syrian ethnicities imply terror. Huge Lebanese/Syrian ethnicities in Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Venezuela, Ecuador, Colombia, Mexico, the USA, Canada, and the list goes in... get your facts together and stop posting stupidities!

I am sorry you are offended. But suggest you visit the Triple Border Area (Argentina, Paraguay and Brazil) and see for yourself what is going on there. In any case, it is up to those communities there to purge those doubtless minorities within them that are involved in acts such as money laundering instead of getting offended. Who said anything about millions of immigrants of Lebanese/Syrian extraction that are law abiding cities all over the world? I specifically talked about that region and did not generalize to the whole S&L diaspora.

2travel2know2 wrote:

2. If Frequency is what CM is strongest in right now, does it really need ME3 or posh Asian airline business class product? It's not that CM is flying +9 hour segments. Even with the array of destinations it has the current standard almost very bare business class is more than enough.

Yes, but if Im paying for J on a 16 hour SFO-PTY-COR or LAX-PTY-ROS, a lie flat seat would be nice. Would you pay for J to fly LAX-ATL-FCO in a standard recliner seat with todays competition?

BENAir01 wrote:

2travel2know2 wrote:

2. If Frequency is what CM is strongest in right now, does it really need ME3 or posh Asian airline business class product? It's not that CM is flying +9 hour segments. Even with the array of destinations it has the current standard almost very bare business class is more than enough.

Yes, but if Im paying for J on a 16 hour SFO-PTY-COR or LAX-PTY-ROS, a lie flat seat would be nice. Would you pay for J to fly LAX-ATL-FCO in a standard recliner seat with todays competition?

Pay attention that:
The total flying time of the sample routes isn't 16 but perhaps 14 hours and none of CM segments used as sample flights which are flown on a B737 are longer than ATL-FCO.

2travel2know2 wrote:

BENAir01 wrote:

2travel2know2 wrote:

2. If Frequency is what CM is strongest in right now, does it really need ME3 or posh Asian airline business class product? It's not that CM is flying +9 hour segments. Even with the array of destinations it has the current standard almost very bare business class is more than enough.

Yes, but if Im paying for J on a 16 hour SFO-PTY-COR or LAX-PTY-ROS, a lie flat seat would be nice. Would you pay for J to fly LAX-ATL-FCO in a standard recliner seat with todays competition?

Pay attention that:
The total flying time of the sample routes isn't 16 but perhaps 14 hours and none of CM segments used as sample flights which are flown on a B737 are longer than ATL-FCO.

Well a 7 hour segment plus a 2 hour layover plus a seven hour segment is 16 hours, and yes ATL-FCO Is longer then the segments but I was going for total travel time. How about this: I would not pay for J on LIM-IAD-DUB Just to get recliners, and that trip is within a few hundred miles of SFO-PTY-EZE, not only by total travel distance, but each segment.