If any airline in the world were a candidate to buy a manufacturer (bombardier), it would be Delta.

Refineries and airports have already proven to not be off limits.

I would like to see the best aircraft for Delta's system "win" the order. Delta has taken a step into the political arena in the recent past with it's take on the ME3. As an American I read their viewpoint and take stock in what they are saying. It becomes very hard to back said US company complaining about the ME3 when they take their money and wire it to manufacturers who are not US entities.

On one hand, Delta wants to wave the Red, White and Blue and look for support from fellow Americans and the political structure. Turning around and ordering Canadian aircraft and European aircraft during the tyrade is an issue for me. If you want me to support US based carriers or YOUR product when I have a choice, I expect you to support the US product when you open your wallet. If they don't, that's fine. I just don't have to choose them when selecting a carrier.

In short, Delta wants Americans and our government to help them. If you turn around and buy Canadian and European products at the same time, that's a party foul of epic proportions.

StrandedAtMKG wrote:

DDR wrote:

He will not be viewed as unpatriotic if he doesn't buy Boeing. Airbus makes great aircraft and you need American workers to support those aircraft.

Yes he will...by me, at least. American companies have an obligation to purchase American products unless it's absurdly fiscally irresponsible not to. The manufacturing location for a big-ticket item like a widebody jet must absolutely be taken into account when making a purchase this big. The American economy will not grow and prosper if billions of US dollars are being spent in France.

In Delta's case, they need to put their money where their mouth is. Don't come crying to me that American workers at DL are suffering due to unfair competition from the ME3 when you threw Boeing workers under the bus.

Okay but what about the fact that Air France was the launch customer for the 777-300ER and they are in the process of replacing their 332/343 fleet with 787s? GE powered non the less so they have selected the most American version of the product they could. Ditto for its sister company KLM buying even more Boeings. KLM has had a habit of phasing out Airbus purchases rather quickly compared to other fleet types. So by that same logic... are you happy to turn away those orders supporting thousands of American Jobs?

atl100million wrote:

StrandedAtMKG wrote:

DDR wrote:

He will not be viewed as unpatriotic if he doesn't buy Boeing. Airbus makes great aircraft and you need American workers to support those aircraft.

Yes he will...by me, at least. American companies have an obligation to purchase American products unless it's absurdly fiscally irresponsible not to. The manufacturing location for a big-ticket item like a widebody jet must absolutely be taken into account when making a purchase this big. The American economy will not grow and prosper if billions of US dollars are being spent in France.

In Delta's case, they need to put their money where their mouth is. Don't come crying to me that American workers at DL are suffering due to unfair competition from the ME3 when you threw Boeing workers under the bus.

You do realize that Airbus builds planes in the US?

And perhaps you can tell us the percent of content on each of the 737 and A320 by country as it is done on window stickers for cars?

And you might also tell us the percentage of consumer products you have in your home that were made exclusively in the USA.

There is a far higher value to the consumer products imported to the US than the industrial products which are not.

Exactly.

If one politicizes business then the economic environment begins to deteriorate. Besides, as noted above, the content of commercial airplanes is global, regardless of brand.

Even autos aren't that simple. Our family has had GM trucks...made in Canada. I once had an Isuzu with a french transmission, a Japanese engine and was assembled in Indiana. Now we have Toyota trucks and cars...all assembled in the U.S. And the parts come from the U.S., too. It's just not as simple as saying one should buy made in the USA, or any other country for that matter.

What is the focus here is that Delta is asking for "hometown" support. At the very same time it is not providing "hometown" support to Boeing. That is a double standard in regards to Delta. American and United are not as loudly saying the same thing. Also, take into account that United is almost all Boeing and American has a ton of orders for MAX series aircraft and 787s. If all is the same at the end of the day, I'm putting my money where my mouth is and going to try and support the most "hometown team" if I can.

As an American, I would like to see US companies purchase US products. Specifically US airlines. The international aviation manufacturing scene is highly charged with waiving of many different flags. I'd obviously like to see the manufacturer from my country earn orders from carriers that have a N# registration. US carriers would like me to use their product. They would like me to choose them over other domestic carriers or foreign carriers when I fly internationally. Telling my fellow countrymen in Seattle and Charleston "Too bad, so sad, we went with the Canadians or Europeans", leaves me saying the same when I choose to fly someone else who bought American.

cschleic wrote:

atl100million wrote:

StrandedAtMKG wrote:

Yes he will...by me, at least. American companies have an obligation to purchase American products unless it's absurdly fiscally irresponsible not to. The manufacturing location for a big-ticket item like a widebody jet must absolutely be taken into account when making a purchase this big. The American economy will not grow and prosper if billions of US dollars are being spent in France.

In Delta's case, they need to put their money where their mouth is. Don't come crying to me that American workers at DL are suffering due to unfair competition from the ME3 when you threw Boeing workers under the bus.

You do realize that Airbus builds planes in the US?

And perhaps you can tell us the percent of content on each of the 737 and A320 by country as it is done on window stickers for cars?

And you might also tell us the percentage of consumer products you have in your home that were made exclusively in the USA.

There is a far higher value to the consumer products imported to the US than the industrial products which are not.

Exactly.

If one politicizes business then the economic environment begins to deteriorate. Besides, as noted above, the content of commercial airplanes is global, regardless of brand.

Even autos aren't that simple. Our family has had GM trucks...made in Canada. I once had an Isuzu with a french transmission, a Japanese engine and was assembled in Indiana. Now we have Toyota trucks and cars...all assembled in the U.S. And the parts come from the U.S., too. It's just not as simple as saying one should buy made in the USA, or any other country for that matter.

We can take pickup trucks and break it down very simply. Two US construction companies based in Detroit compete for a project in Detroit. One says "Support Me", I'm your hometown guy and has a fleet of Toyota Tundras. Meanwhile the other company doesn't say anything but drives Ford F-150s. If all things are equal, who do you think is getting the contract?

I don't know about you guys, but it's going to get boring planespotting and seeing nothing but 737's and A320's. Dull, cramped, yesterday's aircraft. We need innovation and both Airbus and Boeing are taking the lazy/cheap way out by putting lipstick on a pig. Shame on them. They need innovators, not more corporate snobs.

CX747 wrote:

What is the focus here is that Delta is asking for "hometown" support. At the very same time it is not providing "hometown" support to Boeing. That is a double standard in regards to Delta. American and United are not as loudly saying the same thing. Also, take into account that United is almost all Boeing and American has a ton of orders for MAX series aircraft and 787s. If all is the same at the end of the day, I'm putting my money where my mouth is and going to try and support the most "hometown team" if I can.

As an American, I would like to see US companies purchase US products. Specifically US airlines. The international aviation manufacturing scene is highly charged with waiving of many different flags. I'd obviously like to see the manufacturer from my country earn orders from carriers that have a N# registration. US carriers would like me to use their product. They would like me to choose them over other domestic carriers or foreign carriers when I fly internationally. Telling my fellow countrymen in Seattle and Charleston "Too bad, so sad, we went with the Canadians or Europeans", leaves me saying the same when I choose to fly someone else who bought American.

Last I checked, Boeing isn't even supporting US airlines in the fight. Soooooooo?

Super80Fan wrote:

I don't know about you guys, but it's going to get boring planespotting and seeing nothing but 737's and A320's. Dull, cramped, yesterday's aircraft. We need innovation and both Airbus and Boeing are taking the lazy/cheap way out by putting lipstick on a pig. Shame on them. They need innovators, not more corporate snobs.

It would be a MASSIVE jump but I have always wanted to see Cessna get in the race. Their aircraft perform to spec, take a tremendous beating for the most part are a well run company. Maybe they will win the new USAF "COIN" competition and see the opportunities out there in addition to making stellar C-172s etc.

777Mech wrote:

CX747 wrote:

What is the focus here is that Delta is asking for "hometown" support. At the very same time it is not providing "hometown" support to Boeing. That is a double standard in regards to Delta. American and United are not as loudly saying the same thing. Also, take into account that United is almost all Boeing and American has a ton of orders for MAX series aircraft and 787s. If all is the same at the end of the day, I'm putting my money where my mouth is and going to try and support the most "hometown team" if I can.

As an American, I would like to see US companies purchase US products. Specifically US airlines. The international aviation manufacturing scene is highly charged with waiving of many different flags. I'd obviously like to see the manufacturer from my country earn orders from carriers that have a N# registration. US carriers would like me to use their product. They would like me to choose them over other domestic carriers or foreign carriers when I fly internationally. Telling my fellow countrymen in Seattle and Charleston "Too bad, so sad, we went with the Canadians or Europeans", leaves me saying the same when I choose to fly someone else who bought American.

Last I checked, Boeing isn't even supporting US airlines in the fight. Soooooooo?

What do you mean by "not supporting US airlines"? Their place in the industry is different as a manufacturer. Selling to Emirates or Air France is fine. Selling at a lower cost to a foreign carrier to assist them would be an issue.

Again, I would like to see US carriers purchase competitive Boeing products. I try to support US carriers that buy Boeing. Sometimes I can and other times it is not an option. I understand the US carriers may be in the same shoes when purchasing their fleets. It just happens to be something I look at when spending my $$$.

CX747 wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:

I don't know about you guys, but it's going to get boring planespotting and seeing nothing but 737's and A320's. Dull, cramped, yesterday's aircraft. We need innovation and both Airbus and Boeing are taking the lazy/cheap way out by putting lipstick on a pig. Shame on them. They need innovators, not more corporate snobs.

It would be a MASSIVE jump but I have always wanted to see Cessna get in the race. Their aircraft perform to spec, take a tremendous beating for the most part are a well run company. Maybe they will win the new USAF "COIN" competition and see the opportunities out there in addition to making stellar C-172s etc.

That would actually be amazing! I wonder if they ever thought to enter the commercial aircraft market.

Super80Fan wrote:

I don't know about you guys, but it's going to get boring planespotting and seeing nothing but 737's and A320's. Dull, cramped, yesterday's aircraft. We need innovation and both Airbus and Boeing are taking the lazy/cheap way out by putting lipstick on a pig. Shame on them. They need innovators, not more corporate snobs.

Agreed 100%. There has absolutely no innovation in the NB sector since November of 1988 when the A320-200 was certified.

I have seriously been considering suicide as I am younger than the oldest A320-200 in service. It's been torturing me more than usual as very young versions if its contemporaries (757's and 767's) are getting retired and scrapped well before they reach 16 years.

Split the order, to satisfy both Airbus and Boeing fanboys in airliners.net. I can't imagine how many threads (especially A Vs. B) will be done if the order swings to one manufacturer.

Jokes aside, am pretty sure DL will make their best decision to meet operational needs in accordance to its financial requirement.

1989worstyear wrote:

I have seriously been considering suicide as I am younger than the oldest A320-200 in service.

Bwahaha. Dramatic much?

CX747 wrote:

777Mech wrote:

CX747 wrote:

What is the focus here is that Delta is asking for "hometown" support. At the very same time it is not providing "hometown" support to Boeing. That is a double standard in regards to Delta. American and United are not as loudly saying the same thing. Also, take into account that United is almost all Boeing and American has a ton of orders for MAX series aircraft and 787s. If all is the same at the end of the day, I'm putting my money where my mouth is and going to try and support the most "hometown team" if I can.

As an American, I would like to see US companies purchase US products. Specifically US airlines. The international aviation manufacturing scene is highly charged with waiving of many different flags. I'd obviously like to see the manufacturer from my country earn orders from carriers that have a N# registration. US carriers would like me to use their product. They would like me to choose them over other domestic carriers or foreign carriers when I fly internationally. Telling my fellow countrymen in Seattle and Charleston "Too bad, so sad, we went with the Canadians or Europeans", leaves me saying the same when I choose to fly someone else who bought American.

Last I checked, Boeing isn't even supporting US airlines in the fight. Soooooooo?

What do you mean by "not supporting US airlines"? Their place in the industry is different as a manufacturer. Selling to Emirates or Air France is fine. Selling at a lower cost to a foreign carrier to assist them would be an issue.

Again, I would like to see US carriers purchase competitive Boeing products. I try to support US carriers that buy Boeing. Sometimes I can and other times it is not an option. I understand the US carriers may be in the same shoes when purchasing their fleets. It just happens to be something I look at when spending my $$$.

The fight against the ME3. If Boeing is angry about the Cseries subsidy's, but yet still sells to a government subsidized airline that directly affect US jobs as well? It's hypocritical.

Dalmd88 wrote:

The internal rumors is this order, like many is more dependent on the engine deal, not the airframe deal. The A350 was really an engine deal. DL got the Rolls Royce work for for the DL fleet and customer engines. That sealed the deal for the A350.

This makes no sense to me. The 787-9, which was competing against the A350 for that order, has the Rolls-Royce Trent 1000 as one of the engine options. Why would Delta have to order the A350 to get the engine work from Rolls-Royce? DL could have just as easily ordered the 787 with RR engines

Super80Fan wrote:

CX747 wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:

I don't know about you guys, but it's going to get boring planespotting and seeing nothing but 737's and A320's. Dull, cramped, yesterday's aircraft. We need innovation and both Airbus and Boeing are taking the lazy/cheap way out by putting lipstick on a pig. Shame on them. They need innovators, not more corporate snobs.

It would be a MASSIVE jump but I have always wanted to see Cessna get in the race. Their aircraft perform to spec, take a tremendous beating for the most part are a well run company. Maybe they will win the new USAF "COIN" competition and see the opportunities out there in addition to making stellar C-172s etc.

That would actually be amazing! I wonder if they ever thought to enter the commercial aircraft market.

They are creeping up into the midsize jet market with the latitude/longitude.

Textron is very much a pennies and nickles style American corporation, so I don't see the massive R&D will behind it.

Gulfstream on the other hand..

If you show the Stars and Stripes on the tail, you should be flying Boeing.

seahawk wrote:

If you show the Stars and Stripes on the tail, you should be flying Boeing.

And probably get your own Titanium as well, you know, it coming mostly from Russia looks bad nowadays.

Can we get this thread back on track?

Surely one could argue Delta buying the right aircraft A or B that makes them the most money (they are a business after all) is more beneficial to the US economy than just buying from your hometown. Imagine you run an auto shop who chose to buy American tools as apposed foreign, despite the fact that said American tools where unsuitable for your kind of work. As a result you have to lay off your workers because you can't make money. Surely that's going to be worse economically than just buying foreign tools. The aqusition cost of an aircraft is nothing compared to the economic income an aircraft can make over its 20 year life.

NeBaNi wrote:

Dalmd88 wrote:

The internal rumors is this order, like many is more dependent on the engine deal, not the airframe deal. The A350 was really an engine deal. DL got the Rolls Royce work for for the DL fleet and customer engines. That sealed the deal for the A350.

This makes no sense to me. The 787-9, which was competing against the A350 for that order, has the Rolls-Royce Trent 1000 as one of the engine options. Why would Delta have to order the A350 to get the engine work from Rolls-Royce? DL could have just as easily ordered the 787 with RR engines

From what I understand, Boeing couldn't get DL the delivery slots they wanted with 787s (at a time when DL had already pushed back NW's launch order into the 2020s), and offered additional 77Ls as an interim. Meaning GE engines for the first few years, at a time DL wanted work on RR.

SevenNineSeven wrote:

Want some math?

Sure, and some substantiation would be nice.

SevenNineSeven wrote:

It is utterly clear that an order for a Boeing brings far more benefit to the US than an order for an airbus. To think otherwise is simply ignorant, and I'm guessing willfully.

Calm down Quixote, the request was simply to SHOW and not just STATE that what goes to Boeing is a better boon... with the added pleasure of knowing full well that that MSPwhatever person wouldn't have the wherewithal to do so. If someone of greater capability could produce and substantiate that data, than far be it for me or anyone else to argue otherwise.

777Mech wrote:

CX747 wrote:

What is the focus here is that Delta is asking for "hometown" support. At the very same time it is not providing "hometown" support to Boeing. That is a double standard in regards to Delta. American and United are not as loudly saying the same thing. Also, take into account that United is almost all Boeing and American has a ton of orders for MAX series aircraft and 787s. If all is the same at the end of the day, I'm putting my money where my mouth is and going to try and support the most "hometown team" if I can.

As an American, I would like to see US companies purchase US products. Specifically US airlines. The international aviation manufacturing scene is highly charged with waiving of many different flags. I'd obviously like to see the manufacturer from my country earn orders from carriers that have a N# registration. US carriers would like me to use their product. They would like me to choose them over other domestic carriers or foreign carriers when I fly internationally. Telling my fellow countrymen in Seattle and Charleston "Too bad, so sad, we went with the Canadians or Europeans", leaves me saying the same when I choose to fly someone else who bought American.

Last I checked, Boeing isn't even supporting US airlines in the fight. Soooooooo?

Absolutely, it`s not in their interests. They need to sell globally to survive, quite a few on here aren't getting it.

From the point of commonality, if DL orders 320neo with PW power, how much of a technology is shared between PW1100 and PW1500, since it has C series on order?

MrHMSH wrote:

StrandedAtMKG wrote:

DDR wrote:

He will not be viewed as unpatriotic if he doesn't buy Boeing. Airbus makes great aircraft and you need American workers to support those aircraft.

Yes he will...by me, at least. American companies have an obligation to purchase American products unless it's absurdly fiscally irresponsible not to. The manufacturing location for a big-ticket item like a widebody jet must absolutely be taken into account when making a purchase this big. The American economy will not grow and prosper if billions of US dollars are being spent in France.

In Delta's case, they need to put their money where their mouth is. Don't come crying to me that American workers at DL are suffering due to unfair competition from the ME3 when you threw Boeing workers under the bus.

What a narrow-minded outlook.

It's just as well the rest of the world doesn't share your convictions, because otherwise Boeing would have fewer aircraft to sell and thus would employ fewer local workers. Like it or not, DL should only be buying the aircraft that suits their needs at the right prices and costs. American companies have zero obligation to buy American products, and nor do the people. The country has spent its entire existence as a destination for migrants, and they define your culture.

The American economy has grown and prospered quite well with airlines ordering foreign-built aircraft for many decades. If DL places the order with Airbus, Airbus produces lots of parts in the USA, and depending on what variant they buy, the planes may be assembled there as well.

You are correct about buying the better product free of politics but, ICYMI, prior to the DL acquisition of NW they, DL, had a sole source agreement in place with Boeing. However, in order to get approval for the acquisition, the EU Government required DL to abandon that sole source agreement. It seemed odd to me that subsequent to the merger, with the exception of the CS100/300 orders, Boeing seems to have gone to Airbus almost exclusively. So, how much do politics have to do with this? Plenty, it appears

seahawk wrote:

If you show the Stars and Stripes on the tail, you should be flying Boeing.

I suppose by that logic foreign brand cars should be banned from the US, heck even some of the domestic brand cars are build outside of the US, ban those too. While you're at it shut down airlines like Skywest who have no need for anything Boeing has to offer, yet "show the Stars and Stripes on the tail". Then Europe and Asia should switch to Airbus, Mitsubishi, and Sukhoi for all their planes, then Boeing would go bankrupt.

Polarisguy wrote:

It seemed odd to me that subsequent to the merger, with the exception of the CS100/300 orders, Boeing seems to have gone to Airbus almost exclusively. So, how much do politics have to do with this? Plenty, it appears

Perhaps you are unaware of the 130 737-900ERs orders that Delta has placed since 2011 in three different orders? Delta has not almost exclusively gone to Airbus. Once all current orders are fulfilled, the 737-900ER will be the biggest fleet type for Delta and all were ordered after the merger. Delta has been ordering from pretty much everyone.

ZEDZAG wrote:

From the point of commonality, if DL orders 320neo with PW power, how much of a technology is shared between PW1100 and PW1500, since it has C series on order?

Looking at Delta's narrowbody fleet, I don't think commonality is much of a concern.

Tedd wrote:

airbazar wrote:

I just don't know how he can expect any support for his anti-ME3 campaign and then turn around and order a load of Airbus planes. It just doesn't look good. On the other hand, he could be leveraging this order to gain political support for his anti-ME3 campaign. This one will be interesting to follow.

With respect, what on earth has a prospective order for Airbus aircraft got to do with his anti-ME3 campaign, or anything else for
that matter. There seems to be so much suggestion lately that US airlines should buy Boeing & not consider the alternative. With
so many `foreign` airlines buying Boeing planes, isn`t there a hint of shame in that way of thinking? When all is said & done, each
of these the largest of plane makers source their components from all over, with many Airbus parts coming from the US, keeping
businesses there solvent. If the Delta CEO feels his company is best served buying Airbus, then he shouldn`t be subject to outside
influence regardless of views on other matters by either company or person(s). Put another way, how could such a person be deemed
in any way unpatriotic or un-American in not buying Boeing when he is responsible for the employment of so many American personnel.

I believe it is because Delta has specifically framed this as an attempt to save American Jobs. So on one hand they don't want competition from foreign carriers as they feel it will impact people working for American carriers but on the other hand they buy Airplanes that are Manufactured outside of the country and don't really seem to care about the American jobs that decision impacts. You can't have it both ways.

The A321-LR seems to be selling really well lately.
I always wonder if all these "USA firsters" buy inexpensive Chinese imports at WalMart etc.?

SevenNineSeven wrote:

Want some math?

Sure, and some substantiation would be nice.

SevenNineSeven wrote:

It is utterly clear that an order for a Boeing brings far more benefit to the US than an order for an airbus. To think otherwise is simply ignorant, and I'm guessing willfully.

Calm down Quixote, the request was simply to SHOW and not just STATE that what goes to Boeing is a better boon... with the added pleasure of knowing full well that that MSPwhatever person wouldn't have the wherewithal to do so. If someone of greater capability could produce and substantiate that data, than far be it for me or anyone else to argue otherwise.

That's some cute and highly selective quoting. The public source NB jobs and US supplier spend numbers i posted show unequivocally that an order for a 737 has a far greater net impact for US jobs than an a32x order does. Again, willfully ignorant.

Skywatcher wrote:

The A321-LR seems to be selling really well lately.

So far just Azores, Primera, Air Transat, Norwegian, TAP and IAG/Aer Lingus. No US airlines have ordered it. Don't know if DL is considering it or not. Smaller European airlines are the ones most interested so far in the plane.

DDR wrote:

Tedd wrote:

airbazar wrote:

I just don't know how he can expect any support for his anti-ME3 campaign and then turn around and order a load of Airbus planes. It just doesn't look good. On the other hand, he could be leveraging this order to gain political support for his anti-ME3 campaign. This one will be interesting to follow.

With respect, what on earth has a prospective order for Airbus aircraft got to do with his anti-ME3 campaign, or anything else for
that matter. There seems to be so much suggestion lately that US airlines should buy Boeing & not consider the alternative. With
so many `foreign` airlines buying Boeing planes, isn`t there a hint of shame in that way of thinking? When all is said & done, each
of these the largest of plane makers source their components from all over, with many Airbus parts coming from the US, keeping
businesses there solvent. If the Delta CEO feels his company is best served buying Airbus, then he shouldn`t be subject to outside
influence regardless of views on other matters by either company or person(s). Put another way, how could such a person be deemed
in any way unpatriotic or un-American in not buying Boeing when he is responsible for the employment of so many American personnel.

He will not be viewed as unpatriotic if he doesn't buy Boeing. Airbus makes great aircraft and you need American workers to support those aircraft.

YES HE WILL! A , B and C all build great aircraft. Support your country or you ARE unpatriotic. Proud to say it and I back it up by actions. He doesn't have a leg to stand on while complaining about the Im/ex bank and me3 if he doesn't support his own country in the first place.

I think that there's a difference between attempting to level the playing field and asking for a hometown discount. We can debate about which one DL is actually asking for, but they believe that they're asking the US government to address an unfair advantage that the ME3 have via IM/EX.

Re: the nationalist sentiment to bug American - we should be careful what we ask for. The market dynamics of that go far beyond the DL narrow body order and there is a very large market outside the US. That nationalist sword cuts both ways and rarely makes the airlines, the manufacturers or the parts/supply chain better in the long run.

Can we simply talk about Delta and what the best plane for them is? The comments make it clear that the competition is based in the merits of the airplanes and both the 737MAX and A320neo would work well in the Delta fleet. I learned new things reading this thread about how Delta tech ops may be trying to grow their business attaching work to this order. Seems like a very good idea.

Getting my popcorn.....

I would like to see the 320/321 NEO and the CS100/300 win this.as I feel like it fits DL needs the best.

This is about more than American jobs. It's about protecting an industry that also contributes to our national security. The US 3 fly thousands of military personnel all over the world as part of our national security structure. If foreign airlines destroy the civil airline industry in the US and our airlines cease to exist it will affect the ability to move troops all over the world. It's about more than just a couple thousand jobs in the US, it's a threat to an entire industry across all airlines.

Boeing has reaped the benefit of selling lots of expensive planes to the ME3 through the Export/Import bank which assists the ME3 in paying less for the planes, who in turn dump seats into the US international market at below cost until the competitor exits the market because they cannot compete. The fact that Boeing has refused to produce a REAL 737 (or 757 for that matter) replacement for the last 20 years using technology that they have had since the 80s is the reason airlines are ordering foreign products. All this bellyaching about buying foreign airliners is a direct result of Boeing's refusal to innovate (narrow body) and produce products that the airlines want or need.

So we know that DL is looking at 75 frames, do we know if there are options attached to this order as well?

If people are worried about American jobs they should hope Airbus wins these orders:

https://leehamnews.com/2017/08/21/airbu ... -spending/

"Airbus continues its drive to purchase goods from suppliers outside Europe, encouraging development of an aerospace cluster around its new Mobile (AL) plant.
Washington State, the home to arch-rival Boeing, has moved up slightly as a major supplier to Airbus."

A few meter stretch, 10-15% capacity growth might be the trick to move over big aging A320 fleets with operators like Delta, United and Air France. The A321s are a big jump in capacity & costs if the aging A320s fleet need replacements.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-vRKbA-E0ELo/WVusylzR7nI/AAAAAAAABLc/TZnts3o3MCMqMP0NGn38BUF4KCy4Jn_OQCLcBGAs/s1600/A320%2BNEO%2BPlus%2B737-8%2BMAX%2BAirbus%2BBoeing%2Bkeesje%2Bstretch.jpg

The cabin difference between the 737-8 and 737-10 is 4.3 meters, the A321 is a nearly 7m cabin step up over the A320. The new A321 door arrangement increases the capacity gap.

keesje wrote:

A few meter stretch, 10-15% capacity growth might be the trick to move over big aging A320 fleets with operators like Delta, United and Air France. The A321s are a big jump in capacity & costs if the aging A320s fleet need replacements. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-vRKbA-E0ELo/WVusylzR7nI/AAAAAAAABLc/TZnts3o3MCMqMP0NGn38BUF4KCy4Jn_OQCLcBGAs/s1600/A320%2BNEO%2BPlus%2B737-8%2BMAX%2BAirbus%2BBoeing%2Bkeesje%2Bstretch.jpg

wouldn't there be a bit of a bump in capacity if you replace A320CEO with 738MAX?

SevenNineSeven wrote:

SevenNineSeven wrote:

Want some math?

Sure, and some substantiation would be nice.

SevenNineSeven wrote:

It is utterly clear that an order for a Boeing brings far more benefit to the US than an order for an airbus. To think otherwise is simply ignorant, and I'm guessing willfully.

Calm down Quixote, the request was simply to SHOW and not just STATE that what goes to Boeing is a better boon... with the added pleasure of knowing full well that that MSPwhatever person wouldn't have the wherewithal to do so. If someone of greater capability could produce and substantiate that data, than far be it for me or anyone else to argue otherwise.

That's some cute and highly selective quoting. The public source NB jobs and US supplier spend numbers i posted show unequivocally that an order for a 737 has a far greater net impact for US jobs than an a32x order does. Again, willfully ignorant.

It is not - and never should be - DL (or any airlines) duty to buy a product that does best for the economy of that country. It is the airlines duty to but the frame that provides the best return for its shareholders. End of story.

The persistent posts on here that American airlines should buy Boeing - well as said elsewhere that leads to a trade war. All European airlines must buy Airbus? I do not see the American First supporters suggesting that would be correct. In fact they would probably complain bitterly were that to happen.

flyabr wrote:

wouldn't there be a bit of a bump in capacity if you replace A320CEO with 738MAX?

When using space-flex lavatories on the A320, there is hardly any difference between the A320 and the 737-8. Delta has 160 seats in both.

European legacy carriers, like British Airways and Lufthansa, configure their newly delivered (or recently refurbished) A320s with 180 seats, while KLM and Scandinavian have 170 and 181 seats respectively in their 737-800.

Looking at how the LCCs are configuring their aircraft in all Y layout, makes it easier to compare:

Number of seats on the 737-800:
176, Southwest
186, Norwegian
189, Ryanair

Number of seats on the A320 (with space-flex):
180, Frontier
182, Spirit
186, Easyjet

Certified maximum: A320 @ 195 seats, 737-8 @ 189 seats. The difference is due to the larger front and rear doors on the A320. No A320 have been delivered with more than 186 seats as far as I know.

In orders words, any slight size difference between the A320 and the 737-8 will not be an important factor for Delta.

reidar76 wrote:

When using space-flex lavatories on the A320, there is hardly any difference between the A320 and the 737-8. Delta has 160 seats in both.

Interesting info...does DL use those space-flex lavs in their fleet?

reidar76 wrote:

flyabr wrote:

wouldn't there be a bit of a bump in capacity if you replace A320CEO with 738MAX?

When using space-flex lavatories on the A320, there is hardly any difference between the A320 and the 737-8. Delta has 160 seats in both.

European legacy carriers, like British Airways and Lufthansa, configure their newly delivered (or recently refurbished) A320s with 180 seats, while KLM and Scandinavian have 170 and 181 seats respectively in their 737-800.

Looking at how the LCCs are configuring their aircraft in all Y layout, makes it easier to compare:

Number of seats on the 737-800:
176, Southwest
186, Norwegian
189, Ryanair

Number of seats on the A320 (with space-flex):
180, Frontier
182, Spirit
186, Easyjet

Certified maximum: A320 @ 195 seats, 737-8 @ 189 seats. The difference is due to the larger front and rear doors on the A320. No A320 have been delivered with more than 186 seats as far as I know.

In orders words, any slight size difference between the A320 and the 737-8 will not be an important factor for Delta.

First off, Delta had to take seats out of the A320 with the new interiors because the galleys were unworkable and too small so they only have 157 seats.

I don't think that is a very fair comparison since Delta has not redone the 737-800 interiors. A new 737-8 would likely have the latest seats, slimmer lavatories, smaller galleys and the new sky interior and probably fit in an extra row. For reference American Airlines went from 160 seats on the 737-800 to 172 on the 737-8. Most of the space saving features in the Airbus Spaceflex can also be available on the 737MAX, and the 737-8 has a longer cabin than the A320. I would expect Delta to put more seats in a 737-8 than the old 737-800s have. My guess would be 166 seats on a 737-8 (just like United on their new build 737-800) vs 157 on the A320.

By the way, Norwegian has 189 seats on their 737MAX.

I think the 737-8 cabin is about 2 m / 12 seats longer than a A320 cabin. Which is a disadvantage for the A320.

Delta supposedly is replacing the MD88's with the larger 321ceo's, but it seems the experts here think the next order will be for the 320, with the 737-8MAX a remote possibility.

ehaase wrote:

Delta supposedly is replacing the MD88's with the larger 321ceo's, but it seems the experts here think the next order will be for the 320, with the 737-8MAX a remote possibility.

The A321CEOs are replacing some MD88s, 752s and 763s. The average age of the A320 fleet is about 22 years, and the MD90 20 years. Wouldn't those be ripe for replacement in the next 3 to 8 years?

A few points from when Ed met with employees in Seattle, he talked about a lot of things. Particularly, the A350, CS500 and NEO vs Max.

On the A350, they got an offer from Boeing on 789, an offer from Airbus on A359. Ed went back to Boeing and told them what Airbus was offering. Boeing basically told him that there was no way in hell that they could get anywhere close and if that's truly what they're offering, take it. A359 on property now.

As for BBD and CS500:
If they offered it tomorrow, we would order it yesterday. They're talking to BBD about the airplane.

As far as A vs B, B is getting first crack, whatever they get from A, they'll take it to B for a counter.
It's basically going to probably end up a split order. A321NEO and 737-8.

Said the thing with Gulf carriers needs to be solved or fixed before ordering.