All Slots should default back to the authorities and then be given to airliner interested and with few or no routes for that airports.

Revelation wrote:

You seem to feel that I am attacking LH and that blame must be shifted to AB, but I am not attacking LH and agree that AB itself could not find a workable business model. EY made a big bet by investing in AB and AZ under the presumption that EU ownership and labor rules would eventually change to its advantage, but no such changes happened, and now Abu Dhabi's recent shunning means that EY needs to take its bets off the table. If EY did not come along, AB would have folded much earlier. The timing is a great advantage to LH, since in the mean time it has set up EW and has created a mechanism to put employees on inferior contracts.

No, I do not think you're attacking LH. I was more surprised by your "diversity in air transport" argument. While diversity is good, too many players in the field cannot be good. With a little bit more market consolidation, other airlines would yield higher profits which I think would be good for the economy.

So, it seems Wöhrl is back in the game, and has submitted an official bid of 500 million for a full takeover, and is open to partnering with the other interested parties.
His "plan": concentrate on DUS, TXL and core domestic routes, do wet lease flying with the remainder. So, basically, what AB does today...
He expects to achieve significant savings on lease rates and interest payments (how I wonder?).

This plan sounds to me like burning through more money and just prolonging the agony...

http://www.airliners.de/hans-rudolf-woe ... ahme/42317

I've heard that Air Berlin plans to cease all Caribbean operations.
Any news about this?

For the end of Caribbean ops, see the separate thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1373505

As for the Wöhrl bid, he will only cough up 50m EUR. The rest - 450m - will depend on airberlin turning around and generating a profit. He also promises the employees with a bonus of up to 100m EUR distributed.

Someone83 wrote:

Seems to be a lot of Air Berlin cancellations today

And 110 so far from Ryanair. French controllers strike

Jayafe wrote:

Someone83 wrote:

Seems to be a lot of Air Berlin cancellations today

And 110 so far from Ryanair. French controllers strike

Affecting flights within Germany or to Sweden and Austria? Not really.
German tabloid BILD claimes that according to unnamed sources negotiations regarding the contracts of pilots and cabin staff stalled yesterday. Which resulted in a "pilot's revolt", e.g. a wildcat strike.

The following A330 is leaving the fleet:

Airbus A330 -223 822 D-ABXD Air Berlin ferried 11sep17 DUS-ZRH on return to AerCap ex EI-EZJ

Currently on a separate one: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1373575

It seems that AerCap is reclaiming its 10 leased A330's back, hence the Caribbean cancellations.

Another buyer for AB has shown up, Mr. Jonathan Pang, owner of Parchim Airport near Schwerin in Meck-Pomm. He wants to relocate AB to his Airport which is about half wqay between HAM and BER. You can check this Information under "hey, I am also here, please listen to me".

PanHAM wrote:

Another buyer for AB has shown up, Mr. Jonathan Pang, owner of Parchim Airport near Schwerin in Meck-Pomm. He wants to relocate AB to his Airport which is about half wqay between HAM and BER. You can check this Information under "hey, I am also here, please listen to me".

It would cost him a lot less to throw some money at Ryanair and have them fly from his airport...

They tried that and would hae had the Chance to become the second Airport after HHN. Unfortunately t state did not pay for the Advertising

Exotic Chinese bids aside, here's one to take quite seriously:

Lauda has made his offer concrete: instead of going it alone, he will bid together with Thomas Cook/Condor to buy Niki + 17 AB aircraft. No long-haul is included in the deal, only short/mid haul to tourist destinations (Niki's current business model). Thomas Cook would guarantee good pax loads by offering holiday packages using Niki.

http://www.airliners.de/niki-lauda-biet ... ahme/42344

Reaction, as DUS is probably having a better catchment area than FRA for holiday flights.

Condor themselves will be waist-deep in poo now that Ryanair is going after them at Frankfurt.... Most people see the Ryanair expansion at Frankfurt (10 aircraft in 2018) in relation to Lufthansa, but the Ryanair network should really cause more headache for Condor than for Lufthansa. So nit sure if the interest in airberlin is a reaction to or a distraction from this challenge...

I would have thought that DE would go for the AB Long distance netork. May be the financing was not possibe.

I wonder who picks that up........... What was the Name of that big German carrier?

vfw614 wrote:

Condor themselves will be waist-deep in poo now that Ryanair is going after them at Frankfurt.... Most people see the Ryanair expansion at Frankfurt (10 aircraft in 2018) in relation to Lufthansa, but the Ryanair network should really cause more headache for Condor than for Lufthansa. So nit sure if the interest in airberlin is a reaction to or a distraction from this challenge...

Does Condor have A320/21s based in FRA? I thought they only had their 767s and long haul ops out of FRA. In the latter case I don´t see how Ryanair can be a threat to Condor at FRA.

Short haul destinations by Condor from FRA:

Agadir, Antalya, Bari, Burgas, Cagliari, Catania, Chania, Comiso, Corfu, Dalaman, Dubrovnik, Fuerteventura, Funchal, Gran Canaria, Heraklion, Hurghada, Ibiza, Jerez de la Frontera, Kalamata, Kavala, Lamezia Terme, La Palma, Lanzarote, Larnaca, Malta, Marrakesh, Mykonos, Olbia, Paphos, Palermo, Palma de Mallorca, Porto Santo, Rhodes, Rijeka, Samos, Santorini, Skiathos, Split, Tenerife–South, Thessaloniki

Ryanair already covers 11 of those destinations (Agadir, Catania, Chania, Corfu, Gran Canaria, Lanzarote, Mykonos, Palma de Mallorca, Rijeka, Santorini, Tenerife–South)

From that list, Ryanair can't compete on Antalya, Dalaman, or Hurghada as these destinations would require a German AOC due to bilaterals. But in any case, people seem to be assuming that Condor is a free-standing airline. It isn't, it is the flight division of Thomas Cook Germany. It's primary purpose is to provide the flight element of holiday packages sold by member companies of the Thomas Cook Group, and all those destinations are pure leisure ones. While Condor will sell flights separately from the holiday/vacation package, it is only on long haul that they make any serious effort to promote this. So Ryanair can't do so much damage as you might think.

Condor has a significant seat-only business, particularly out of Frankfurt where until now there are hardly any LCC alternatives. No damage would mean that Condor breaks even only with the IT passengers on its flights - I would be very surprised if that was the case.

Interesting information circulating on a German pilots messageboard, apparently posted by an airberlin employee:

He/she says that Lufthansa Group has bought the 10 A330-200 airberlin returned to lessor AerCap - who, without that purchase, was, as he says, in no haste to repossess the aircraft. The move is described as a "pre-emptive strike" to make sure that no-one else can continue airberlin's long-haul ops at DUS. He/she also alleges that Eurowings will take over the Carribbean long-haul routes from Dusseldorf, either directly or through some sort of deal involving Brussels Airlines.

vfw614 wrote:

Interesting information circulating on a German pilots messageboard, apparently posted by an airberlin employee:

He/she says that Lufthansa Group has bought the 10 A330-200 airberlin returned to lessor AerCap - who, without that purchase, was, as he says, in no haste to repossess the aircraft. The move is described as a "pre-emptive strike" to make sure that no-one else can continue airberlin's long-haul ops at DUS. He/she also alleges that Eurowings will take over the Carribbean long-haul routes from Dusseldorf, either directly or through some sort of deal involving Brussels Airlines.

Funny, exactly how I predicted it in the other thread.

I think it is more about keeping IAG / oneworld out of Lufhansa's Frankfurt/Brussels backgarden. Apparently IAG was looking into taking over AB long-haul ops to establish Level at DUS. With the purchase of AB's majority of Airbus A330-200s, this move by IAG has probably been effectively stalled.

Sort of "House of Cards" - the airline version.

All this backhanded dealing given the government bailout sickens me. The airline needs to be sold or shut down. These shady, back alley negotiations and power plays are to the detriment of what remains of Air Berlin, its passengers and employees, as well as European Consumers. Truly scandalous.

Revelation wrote:

It'd be interesting to see how much profit AerCap just harvested on some A330s it wasn't necessarily planning to sell.

Which actually probably means a few more A330 orders...

Easyjet has submitted offer for part of its short haul business

filipair wrote:

All this backhanded dealing given the government bailout sickens me. The airline needs to be sold or shut down. These shady, back alley negotiations and power plays are to the detriment of what remains of Air Berlin, its passengers and employees, as well as European Consumers. Truly scandalous.

AB was not "bailed out"- The Company is insolvent and will be broken up. Without the loan guarantee, the AOC would have been lifted immediatrely and the airine grounded. That would have given LH the option to do exactly that, pick up whatever they want, like 10 A332s with the Slots and Crews plus whatever else they want. LH is Floating in cash and that move which is rmuored is a no brainer.

PanHAM wrote:

AB was not "bailed out"- The Company is insolvent and will be broken up. Without the loan guarantee, the AOC would have been lifted immediatrely and the airine grounded. That would have given LH the option to do exactly that, pick up whatever they want, like 10 A332s with the Slots and Crews plus whatever else they want. LH is Floating in cash and that move which is rmuored is a no brainer.

Yes, and in the meantime the German people are paying for LH to have as smooth as possible a takeover of the AB assets they deem desirable. This is problematic, I hope you can see.

Also BA has allegedly bid for parts of the AB shorthaul business, is reported by the German press, see for example:

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/d ... 00593.html

Que the violin playing on the Titanic, by a former cat house piano player! The "end is near."

Let's see if LH picks up any assets!

filipair wrote:

PanHAM wrote:

AB was not "bailed out"- The Company is insolvent and will be broken up. Without the loan guarantee, the AOC would have been lifted immediatrely and the airine grounded. That would have given LH the option to do exactly that, pick up whatever they want, like 10 A332s with the Slots and Crews plus whatever else they want. LH is Floating in cash and that move which is rmuored is a no brainer.

Yes, and in the meantime the German people are paying for LH to have as smooth as possible a takeover of the AB assets they deem desirable. This is problematic, I hope you can see.

The German People are not paying a cent. The loan is not paid from tax Money and taxes are paid in accordance with personal ability and not as per public spending. The loan is not public spending. With the number of interested parties, the loan will flow back to the KfW Bank.

What is important, the bidders must be able to operate what they intend to obtain. Air Parchim will certainly not be Chosen and LH on the other side has good chances to get parts of the cake because they are financially strong. Ryanair is not interested at all, they won't even operate domestic flights from FRA although they could. So much for reality vs bla bla.

PanHAM wrote:

The loan is not public spending. With the number of interested parties, the loan will flow back to the KfW Bank.

Except that the KfW is owned by the public, so they are indirectly involved. The question is if the loan is made at "normal market conditions" or not. If not then that amounts to a state intervention.

I'm not saying this is bad or should not be allowed, but it is plainly wrong to claim that the taxpayer isn't involved in this at all because they are.

The loan is made at 10% interest, so they will get plenty back considering normal interest rates are so low at the moment. Don't lose track of the fact that this is the exact purpose of the Kfw bank. I am pretty certain that most German people are happy to have a system that allows companies a chance to get themselves together, either by restructuring or sell offs. I have paid a hell of a lot of money over the years here in various taxes to ensure that there is a safety net when things go belly up. Everyone who is working more than a €450 job also pays a percentage. That's the system.

They will get "plenty back" if the loan is not defaulted on. Otherwise you, me and the other German tax payers will be let to pick up the pieces.
Also, would a favourable KfW loan be available for say, a Latvian company in trouble that needs transformation? If not then this amounts to an unfair state intervention in the EU single aviation and economic markets.

The loan is state aid. Kfw is owned by the government, a 10 pct interest was chosen to make it look legit and undermines that there are no securities for e.g. aircraft etc backing the loan. It is hard to believe , but in case of Air Berlin I doubt that there is any asset which could be monitized in way of a sale except the subsidiary Niki and may be LGW and Technics. Air Berlin itself has no value and there is nothing to be sold.

If Niki , LGW and Technics can generate 150 million flowing back to Kfw will be seen.

Also BA has allegedly bid for parts of the AB shorthaul business, is reported by the German press, see for example:

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/d ... 00593.html

Some other interesting infos out of that article:

- The winning bidder(s) will be announced one day after the German election - another indication that this bankruptcy had been intended and carefully timed.
- Air Berlin Aeronautics (the dummy AOC that had been applied for earlier this year in order to move assets to a "good" airline) has not yet received its AOC, so that option seems out (but Niki could still be made the "good" airline)

The list of bidders "seems" to be (as several are still semi-official):
- LH of course
- Niki Lauda and Condor for Niki and part of the short haul ops
- U2 for parts of the short haul ops
- BA (sic) - rather IAG - for parts of former Deutsche BA (according to "industry sources", not official)
- investor Wöhrl for the full airline
- investor Utz Claassen for unknown
- LGW for the cargo business

The Chinese investor Jonathan Pang has not submitted a bid in time, asking for an extension of the deadline

Yes, but help for whom?

the state has an interest to find new jobs for as many AB employees as possible and it also had an interest that Ab does not stopp flying during the summer holidays, which would have left many German citizens stranded.
I really do not understand the fuss about that loan, the interest rate is reasonable, the duration is short, the likelihood to regain the money is high and there was a public interest to keep AB flying. Compared to AZ it looks really minor to me.

Some information on the KfW Bank, which is not owned by the People, as some here assume and not by the government either. The owners are to 4/5 the Federal Republif of Germany and to 1/5 the federal states. The supervising Body of the Federal Finance Ministry and the legal form is a "Corporation under Public Law". The KfW is used for financing numerous Projects which other Banks might turn down. The aim is to finance Special Projects for small and medium companies such as environmental projcts. KfW is the third largest bank in Germany and made more Profit (in 2015( than Deutsche Bank and Commerzbank together /2 Billion €). So much for the poor German tax payer. This guy, whoever that is, is not involved at all.

The Air Berlin loan has not even been fully called Forward, so far less than 50 Million are in the fire and 10% is the market rate for loans to companies under receivership but secured by a Patronage of the Federal Repubic with the condition that repayment from receipts of the AB sell out have priority over any other credtor.

Some information on the KfW Bank, which is not owned by the People, as some here assume and not by the government either. The owners are to 4/5 the Federal Republif of Germany and to 1/5 the federal states. The supervising Body of the Federal Finance Ministry and the legal form is a "Corporation under Public Law". The KfW is used for financing numerous Projects which other Banks might turn down. The aim is to finance Special Projects for small and medium companies such as environmental projcts. KfW is the third largest bank in Germany and made more Profit (in 2015( than Deutsche Bank and Commerzbank together /2 Billion €). So much for the poor German tax payer. This guy, whoever that is, is not involved at all.

The Air Berlin loan has not even been fully called Forward, so far less than 50 Million are in the fire and 10% is the market rate for loans to companies under receivership but secured by a Patronage of the Federal Repubic with the condition that repayment from receipts of the AB sell out have priority over any other credtor.

PanHAM wrote:

. The owners are to 4/5 the Federal Republif of Germany and to 1/5 the federal states..... The KfW is used for financing numerous Projects which other Banks might turn down.

Firstly, this is exactly what owned by the people means: 80% by the Federal Republic and 20% by Local State Governments. So in no way can the KfW be described as a private entity!

Also, and here is the salient point, the KfW finance projects which others might not. So you could argue that Air Berlin would not have received this loan/guarantee on the open market and had to rely upon a 100% state owned entity to be saved.

Regardless, I do think a controlled "dying" of Air Berlin is better for all in the long run. Nobody wants to see an overnight collapse and stranded passengers all over like we saw with Sabina and Malev. However, this is only provided that others don't use the situation to keep others unfairly out of the market in the future!

r2rho wrote:

Exotic Chinese bids aside, here's one to take quite seriously:

Lauda has made his offer concrete: instead of going it alone, he will bid together with Thomas Cook/Condor to buy Niki + 17 AB aircraft. No long-haul is included in the deal, only short/mid haul to tourist destinations (Niki's current business model). Thomas Cook would guarantee good pax loads by offering holiday packages using Niki.

http://www.airliners.de/niki-lauda-biet ... ahme/42344

Even if no long haul is included for the Niki deal, those A330s could be very attractive to Thomas Cook replace the B763s in the Condor fleet, which are 24-25 years old. Thomas Cook also needs to look at replacing its owned A330s, which are primarily ex-Airtours A330s. Now, if it turns out that AerCap has actually sold the Air Berlin A330s other than the repossessed frame to Lufthansa, it now becomes interesting as to what Lufthansa will do with DUS, which would also allow the sole A330-300 at DUS to return to FRA or MUC. (That A333 flies only DUS-EWR, which I see being kept in favor of DUS-JFK, and BER-EWR could become a W-route on Lufthansa---DUS-EWR-BER-EWR-DUS.)

You cannot own something which you cannot sell and for which you have no right of disposal. That goes for the Government as well, they need a parliamentary vote for any changes in KfW. The Members of Parliament represent the 80 Million Germans and have the power of attorney. In case a parliamentary vote was needed, such matters are usually handled by the committee in Charge. Normal procedure in a bank that has a "turnover" of 535 Billion € p.a..In that relation, 150 Million is a rather small amount. The threshold for making loans subject to a board decision is around 500 Million.

Of course would no Commercial bank have given a single Cent to Air Berlin, unless the state would have guaranteed such a loan. Something which happens BTW regularly in Italy (AZ). AB is flat broke and EY has cut the lifeline, hence the Situation was that the manure hit the fan. The Goal was to Keep the corpse alive and for that, Money was needed. Without that Transfusion, the LBA would have seized the AOC and the rest would have been more or leess worthless. All aircraft would have been grounded.

More to that, about 300000 passengers would have been left stranded in europe and North Amewrica with no means to fly them home in Peak season. A side effect is, BTW, to Keep the remains flying and allowing interested parties to bid for parts of AB. A grounded carrier would hav been up for grabs. As you have said as well. I just don't see how someone is kept out when an open bidding takes place. The numbers which are on the table require however that the bidder is financially able to handle such a purchase. That filetrs out the noodle shops

Revelation wrote:

HHScot wrote:

Regardless, I do think a controlled "dying" of Air Berlin is better for all in the long run. Nobody wants to see an overnight collapse and stranded passengers all over like we saw with Sabina and Malev.

The thing being avoided is having the "national champion" compete with the Ryanairs and Wizz Airs of the world, which is what did happen at Budapest.

Interesting article: https://www.economist.com/blogs/gullive ... 05/hungary

This "national Champion" phrase uttered by our clueless Transport Minister was rubbish. LH is the European Champion and they Play in the top league world wide. Even with shackles like passenger tax etc.