Updated: Air Berlin to cease operations

Someone83 · Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:29 am

Looking at Eurowings schedule i January, I notice several flight TXL to the Nordicas to be operated by 737-800. Does this mean they plan to take over the Air Berlin TUI aircraft?

bmibaby737 · Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:15 am

Eurowings use 737-800s from SunExpress, not sure of that route in particular but not massively unusual to see that aircraft type in the Eurowings network.

f4f3a · Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:56 pm

Article also says that easy will have 60% market share on berlin . I'm guessing most of the 30 a/c will be based in txl possibly with a smaller base in dus

WIederling · Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:51 pm

f4f3a wrote:
I think the uk could do with a chapter 11 style rule . It would have saved a lot of money and stress . This happened with excel and is not good for anyone

Chapter 11 style insolvency allows those that mismanaged to f* with those that did not
( like the workforce and their pensions and health care )
going for another cycle of rinse, repeat.

Proper solution:
Take the mismanaged company down while keeping damage to others minimal.

LTU932 · Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:58 pm

http://www.heute.de/air-berlin-betriebs ... 91050.html (German only)

It seems AB is planning to fire its ground and administrative personnel until October 31st. Those still needed to maintain operations will remain with the company until end of February 2018.

a320fan · Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:09 pm

This article hypothesises that they will cease operations on the 1st of November.
http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/ ... er-1-2017/

Sad to see them go, enjoyed my flight on them on Monday, ground and flight staff were friendly and professional. Felt bad for their uncertainty. Hopefully Easy grow in to a big force in Berlin and the rest of Germany with as many AB staff as possible.

KLDC10 · Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:57 pm

a320fan wrote:
This article hypothesises that they will cease operations on the 1st of November.
http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/ ... er-1-2017/

Sad to see them go, enjoyed my flight on them on Monday, ground and flight staff were friendly and professional. Felt bad for their uncertainty. Hopefully Easy grow in to a big force in Berlin and the rest of Germany with as many AB staff as possible.

I believe that Monarch did a similar thing shortly before they ceased operations; namely selling flights only at ludicrous prices. The postulation of that article could well be correct.

f4f3a · Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:43 am

Reuters article says talks with easyjet are at risk of collapse as company had reduced its offer for 30 aircraft.

PanHAM · Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:17 pm

Latest News is that AB will cease ops on Oct 29th, however Niki and LGW will cotinue to operate. No Details yet whether there will be a trasition to LH and EZY
The exclusivity of talks with LH and EZYwill end Thursday this week, if no agreeents have been negotiated until then, the available parts will be up for anyone coming up with a serious offer.

f4f3a · Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:40 pm

Saw an article that said that until Europe finalise deal remnents taht have been bought will continue to operate in a holding company wet leased out to the buyers to operate the routes

mxaxai · Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:09 pm

PanHAM wrote:
Latest News is that AB will cease ops on Oct 29th, however Niki and LGW will cotinue to operate. No Details yet whether there will be a trasition to LH and EZY
The exclusivity of talks with LH and EZYwill end Thursday this week, if no agreeents have been negotiated until then, the available parts will be up for anyone coming up with a serious offer.

Additionally, wet lease flying (e. g. for Eurowings) will continue until those parts of the AB operation are properly and legally integrated into their various successors. So most flights "XYZ operated by AB" will stay beyond Oct 29th (or Oct 28th according to other sources).

In completely unrelated news, Eurowings has been granted 1 billion € from the LH parent for the acquisition of 41 A32* and 20 Dash8-Q400, along with 3000 new jobs.

SpaceshipDC10 · Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Wow, Air Berlin has come a long way from the time they acquired LTU some ten years ago. I don't remember at the moment, was LTU in the same situation back then as is AB today?

Also, will Niki launch long-haul flights with AB crew/equipment?

cosyr · Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:37 pm

I know the insolvency is being discussed, but this is a development that I thought warranted its own discussion:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 747176001/

I really hope they can find a buyer to avoid too many job losses.

PatrickZ80 · Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:49 pm

Could see that coming. A lot of their flights have already been cut, these are just the last ones remaining. It was only a matter of time.

cosyr · Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:07 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Could see that coming. A lot of their flights have already been cut, these are just the last ones remaining. It was only a matter of time.

It's still sad to see another European country loosing a competing home brand, (Like BMI in the UK). I know that Easyjet and Ryan air have bases in every country, but its not the same.

rlwynn · Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:07 pm

Today Evelop did JFK-DUS and there was also FPO from paris doing a flight.

f4f3a · Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:17 pm

Lh will use eurowings brand for long haul expansion . All be it operated by sun express germany

thekorean · Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:33 pm

I do wonder how they would have turned out if BER was actually done on time.

atcsundevil · Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:18 pm

I have updated the thread title to reflect the new reality beyond insolvency. I feel it is best for the discussion to continue in this thread, rather than having similar discussions split off into another topic.

✈️ atcsundevil

aemoreira1981 · Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:31 am

rlwynn wrote:
Today Evelop did JFK-DUS and there was also FPO from paris doing a flight.

Evelop has been showing up here last week and over the weekend (I photographed it on Friday), but it goes to an IAT (Terminal 4) hardstand rather than Terminal 8 at JFK. Today, it positioned back to MAD. I suspect that E9 was doing a cruise charter.

Channex757 · Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:39 am

thekorean wrote:
I do wonder how they would have turned out if BER was actually done on time.

Very likely there wouldn't have been a lot of difference, it was the structural problems at AB that brought it down. Whilst having a properly operational BER may have been useful, all those problems would still have been there.

It really is a shame and one for the history books now. Germany is big and rich enough to easily afford a good second tier carrier after LH, or even a direct competitor. Many hours will be spent debating just where the first mistakes were made.

PanHAM · Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:15 am

Worse Comes to bad as Monarch went bust as well. That puts Easy into the Situation to pick the raisons from 2 failed Airlines. Which, in turns means that they have reduced their offer for their parts from AB from 50 to 30 Million €. Obvisouly they Need cash for buying parts of Monarch, including pilots and other staff from "crss the road".We will know more on Thursday.

PanHAM · Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:24 am

Channex757 wrote:
thekorean wrote:
I do wonder how they would have turned out if BER was actually done on time.

Very likely there wouldn't have been a lot of difference, it was the structural problems at AB that brought it down. Whilst having a properly operational BER may have been useful, all those problems would still have been there.

It really is a shame and one for the history books now. Germany is big and rich enough to easily afford a good second tier carrier after LH, or even a direct competitor. Many hours will be spent debating just where the first mistakes were made.

Again, the market is not Germany but Europe, better, the ECAA. Now, even if you consider the German market alone, the question is not that Germany can "afford" but rather can Germany "support" a second carrier. The answer is no, since from Starters there would not be enough slot capacity available. Plus the competition from German rail, whch de facto is that second carrier at least on the trunk routes. Besides we do have niche carriers like Condor, Germania TUI etc. If the market promises a profitable Operation on certain domestic routes, may be then Germania will fill the void. We will see

seahawk · Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:13 am

PanHAM wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
thekorean wrote:
I do wonder how they would have turned out if BER was actually done on time.

Very likely there wouldn't have been a lot of difference, it was the structural problems at AB that brought it down. Whilst having a properly operational BER may have been useful, all those problems would still have been there.

It really is a shame and one for the history books now. Germany is big and rich enough to easily afford a good second tier carrier after LH, or even a direct competitor. Many hours will be spent debating just where the first mistakes were made.

Again, the market is not Germany but Europe, better, the ECAA. Now, even if you consider the German market alone, the question is not that Germany can "afford" but rather can Germany "support" a second carrier. The answer is no, since from Starters there would not be enough slot capacity available. Plus the competition from German rail, whch de facto is that second carrier at least on the trunk routes. Besides we do have niche carriers like Condor, Germania TUI etc. If the market promises a profitable Operation on certain domestic routes, may be then Germania will fill the void. We will see

There I disagree, there is or better was room for a second big carrier in Germany. The downfall always happened due to wrong decisions. LTU was solid for decades until they were hit by the fall of Swissair and their over ambitious growth plans in combination with 9/11. AB in the end failed for the same reasons. They grew too much and too fast. And in the process they forgot what they wanted to be. The EY influence in the end only made matters worse, when the hybdrid model became even more distorted.

There is no room for 2 Lufthansas in Germany, but there was enough demand, slots and space to have a reliable business outside the core services provided by LH and even with the option to compete with LH in a limited form. This is over now though, as LH moved in to fill this gap with Eurowings,

SCQ83 · Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:49 am

seahawk wrote:
There I disagree, there is or better was room for a second big carrier in Germany. The downfall always happened due to wrong decisions. LTU was solid for decades until they were hit by the fall of Swissair and their over ambitious growth plans in combination with 9/11. AB in the end failed for the same reasons. They grew too much and too fast. And in the process they forgot what they wanted to be. The EY influence in the end only made matters worse, when the hybdrid model became even more distorted.

There is no room for 2 Lufthansas in Germany, but there was enough demand, slots and space to have a reliable business outside the core services provided by LH and even with the option to compete with LH in a limited form. This is over now though, as LH moved in to fill this gap with Eurowings,

I see your point; the problem is that German market was already more complicated than Lufthansa and Air Berlin.

For long-haul leisure, you have (notably) Condor. For short/medium leisure, Condor, TUI or SunExpress. For European everything, the Ryanairs, easyJets and Eurowings. And then of course all the connecting possibilities, and that some airports like DUS are not far from Belgium or Netherlands, which means a spill to other countries.

I also think a "problem" with Germany (despite being such a large market) is that it is not easy to find a niche and focus on it. In Spain, you have UX competing with IB in the very Spanish niche of LATAM flights. In France, you have several carriers competing in the very French niche of DOMTOMs. In the UK, several carriers in the UK niche of TATL US flights. But in Germany (and Italy), it is harder to find that niche.

seahawk · Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:02 am

SCQ83 wrote:

I see your point; the problem is that German market was already more complicated than Lufthansa and Air Berlin.

For long-haul leisure, you have (notably) Condor. For short/medium leisure, Condor, TUI or SunExpress. For European everything, the Ryanairs, easyJets and Eurowings. And then of course all the connecting possibilities, and that some airports like DUS are not far from Belgium or Netherlands, which means a spill to other countries.

I also think a "problem" with Germany (despite being such a large market) is that it is not easy to find a niche and focus on it. In Spain, you have UX competing with IB in the very Spanish niche of LATAM flights. In France, you have several carriers competing in the very French niche of DOMTOMs. In the UK, several carriers in the UK niche of TATL US flights. But in Germany (and Italy), it is harder to find that niche.

No it is (was) not. Condor for example flew long haul from FRA mostly, which left other airports open for long haul ops that are aiming at the leisure market mostly. AB and LTU were well established in the holiday market, but due to external influences they were forced to move the focus of their operations. The idea to compete with DUS against FRA as a long haul hub was stupid, but it was also stupid that all flights to Asia and Africa were stopped and routed through the EY hub. The Asia flights were always making money and large parts of the seats were easily sold to tour operators. (which moved to EK mostly)

Imho the big fault both times was the idea that external investors wanted to tackle LH on its home turf, instead of working around LH.

Antarius · Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:21 pm

Channex757 wrote:
thekorean wrote:
I do wonder how they would have turned out if BER was actually done on time.

Very likely there wouldn't have been a lot of difference, it was the structural problems at AB that brought it down. Whilst having a properly operational BER may have been useful, all those problems would still have been there.

It really is a shame and one for the history books now. Germany is big and rich enough to easily afford a good second tier carrier after LH, or even a direct competitor. Many hours will be spent debating just where the first mistakes were made.

Agreed. AB seemingly has no strategy, or if they did, it changed every quarter.

runway23 · Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:30 pm

According to Airlineroute, EW have put on sale a number of new routes (they havne't listed routes that gain frequencies), mostly out of TXL but also out of DUS.

Most interesting is that routes are actively listed as operated by LGW and some 737-800 operated routes (without an operator listed). Seems that if EW have put these on sale, some sort of agreement may have been reached with AB's creditors.

KarelXWB · Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:28 pm

Word is on the street that LH and Air Berlin reached an agreement.

Lufthansa (LHAG.DE) is poised to agree a deal to buy assets of Air Berlin (AB1.DE), a person familiar with the matter told Reuters ahead of a Thursday deadline for talks to carve up the insolvent German airline.

“The deal with Lufthansa is done, there is agreement,” the person said on Wednesday, adding that talks with easyJet (EZJ.L) were not yet completed.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-air- ... SKBN1CG1UR

VictorKilo · Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:17 pm

Wrong link to the Reuters article. Here's the right one:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-air- ... SKBN1CG1UR

Article mentions Niki + LGW + Additional aircraft (probably the EuroWings wet lease operation) as the parts of Air Berlin purchased by Lufthansa.

eamondzhang · Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:57 am

VictorKilo wrote:
Wrong link to the Reuters article. Here's the right one:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-air- ... SKBN1CG1UR

Article mentions Niki + LGW + Additional aircraft (probably the EuroWings wet lease operation) as the parts of Air Berlin purchased by Lufthansa.

I agree, plus those leased to Austrian as well. That will account for 35 of the 76 A320 series that AB currently has (excluding the Niki ones).

Michael

KarelXWB · Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:02 am

A glimpse of the stored A320s/A321s:

https://flic.kr/p/C4ruxo

SQ22 · Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:07 pm

According to Reuters talks between U2 and AB about U2 taking over 25 aircraft are in its final stages and we can expect announcement by tomorrow.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-air- ... SKBN1CO23B

German version has a bit more details. 20 of these aircrafts to be based in Berlin. Expected a split and more than 5 for DUS, but lets wait and see.

http://de.reuters.com/article/deutschla ... EKBN1CO21C

f4f3a · Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:23 pm

according to Reuters easyjet part of the deal is going to be announced tomorrow

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/mobile.reu ... SKBN1CO23B

readytotaxi · Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:03 pm

Nothing announced yet Friday pm

SQ22 · Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:19 pm

There has been no announcement. I have merged the U2 and AB agreement to be announced Friday thread into this one.

According to German media talks are going to continue, but they are no longer exclusive between U2 and AB.

Furthermore talks for AB maintenance unit are ongoing.

http://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen ... 83658.html

SQ22 · Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:21 pm

Here is an article in english:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-air-be ... CP1OY?il=0

According to this article LH confirmed to remain a major customer for the maintenance unit after being sold, so this is actually good news for a potential buyer as well as the employees.

f4f3a · Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:51 am

Looks like deal was supposed to have been done but faltered at the last moment. Not sure the reason it was supposed to be done yesterday .
I think if this deal fails and no other company that can be viable likely that the whole thing might be a no go regarding Lufthansa.
There’s no way competition authorities will approve lh deal unless someone else takes up 20 plus a/c

seahawk · Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:59 am

On the contrary, it makes it even easier for LH to get their part of the deal. Dividing AB between 2 parties meant that the slots must be used so that there is no monopoly on routes. Now all slots not taken by LH default back to the authorities and become available to anybody interested. It is then up to the parties taking the slots which routes they fly. It is not as if LH would be banned from serving a route, just because no other airline wants to fly it.

asdf · Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:11 pm

f4f3a wrote:
Looks like deal was supposed to have been done but faltered at the last moment. Not sure the reason it was supposed to be done yesterday .
I think if this deal fails and no other company that can be viable likely that the whole thing might be a no go regarding Lufthansa.
There’s no way competition authorities will approve lh deal unless someone else takes up 20 plus a/c

maybe it has something to do with the blocking of the A320 in island?
other dept holders are now maybe thinking on doing the same like island and are going to block AB planes somewhere else

it is then the full risk of the buyer of the planes to get them out there
and it seems like they can only get them out if they pay to full depts of air berlin in that country

maybe they will wait till AB has completely ceased operations and the birds can legaly owned and registered on them

vfw614 · Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:55 pm

Looks like deal was supposed to have been done but faltered at the last moment. Not sure the reason it was supposed to be done yesterday

Because there was an exclusicity agreement in place until then, making easyjet the preferred bidder not allowing airberlin to negotiate with others (such as Condor). Nothing to do with aircraft impounded in Iceland.

727LOVER · Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:09 pm

Why didn't the OW partners bail them out?

If AA or BA were ffailing....wouldn't one bail the other out?

Revelation · Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:14 pm

asdf wrote:
maybe it has something to do with the blocking of the A320 in island?
other dept holders are now maybe thinking on doing the same like island and are going to block AB planes somewhere else

it is then the full risk of the buyer of the planes to get them out there
and it seems like they can only get them out if they pay to full depts of air berlin in that country

maybe they will wait till AB has completely ceased operations and the birds can legaly owned and registered on them

AB itself owns no aircraft, they are all leased.

Therefore it is the lessor who owns the problem of recovering the aircraft so it can be moved on to the new owner.

This makes it less clear to me what one buys when one wins a bid on an AB asset.

They don't own many physical things.

I suppose they are selling the ability to transfer leases along with crews?

If so they do need to get the aircraft out of hock in various locations.

vfw614 · Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:50 pm

I suppose they are selling the ability to transfer leases along with crews?

No. Buyers will not be interested in the leases and the employment contracts as both had to do with the downfall of airberlin - too expensive.So the lease contracts would be re-negotiated anyway, I suppose.

A sale mostly gives the buyer the ability to transfer slots at slot-constrained airports although the AOCs required to do this have all been distributed already, if I have not missed anything (Niki AOC, LGW AOC). The AOC of airberlin proper is not attractive as it would mean that airberlin's contracts would need to be taken over as well

LTU330 · Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:16 pm

vfw614 wrote:
I suppose they are selling the ability to transfer leases along with crews?

No. Buyers will not be interested in the leases and the employment contracts as both had to do with the downfall of airberlin - too expensive.So the lease contracts would be re-negotiated anyway, I suppose.

A sale mostly gives the buyer the ability to transfer slots at slot-constrained airports although the AOCs required to do this have all been distributed already, if I have not missed anything (Niki AOC, LGW AOC). The AOC of airberlin proper is not attractive as it would mean that airberlin's contracts would need to be taken over as well

Some AB contracts may be a bit too high for buyers, but as an example a lot of AB pilots previously jumped over to EWG because they offered more money. The reality is that AB problems had absolutely nothing to do with how much they paid the staff. The problems stemmed from the Tui contract, BER fiasco, stupid leasing rates and mismanagement.

Cunard · Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:43 pm

asdf wrote:
f4f3a wrote:
Looks like deal was supposed to have been done but faltered at the last moment. Not sure the reason it was supposed to be done yesterday .
I think if this deal fails and no other company that can be viable likely that the whole thing might be a no go regarding Lufthansa.
There’s no way competition authorities will approve lh deal unless someone else takes up 20 plus a/c

maybe it has something to do with the blocking of the A320 in island?
other dept holders are now maybe thinking on doing the same like island and are going to block AB planes somewhere else

it is then the full risk of the buyer of the planes to get them out there
and it seems like they can only get them out if they pay to full depts of air berlin in that country

maybe they will wait till AB has completely ceased operations and the birds can legaly owned and registered on them

You have mentioned it a couple of times but what do you mean by 'island'?

Do you mean 'Ireland' as in the country?

asdf · Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:54 pm

KEF for Kevlavic, Island ( sorry english form of it is Iceland)
a AB A320 is impounded there

Finn350 · Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:07 pm

asdf wrote:
KEF for Kevlavic, Island ( sorry english form of it is Iceland)
a AB A320 is impounded there

Iceland is one of the few countries who have not signed Cape Town Treaty. Apparently other countries AB flies to cannot impound the planes because of the treaty.

SQ22 · Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:11 pm

You have mentioned it a couple of times but what do you mean by 'island'?

Do you mean 'Ireland' as in the country?

We have a separate thread about it:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1376707

LTenEleven · Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:24 am

All has gone quiet around the EasyJet deal... but the clock is ticking.

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