filipair wrote:

No? You think that Herr Winkelmann has had the BEST intentions for Air Berlin? That his mission every day on the job was to help Air Berlin develop into a thriving, profitable, sustainable airline in the European marketplace?

His mission is to maximize shareholder value in a way consistent with the Board's guidance and ongoing approval, which may be along the lines of "prepare the company for take over by LH and/or others" instead of "help Air Berlin develop into a thriving, profitable, sustainable airline in the European marketplace".

As per lancelot07, "The CEO is appointed by the supervisory board, which in turn is appointed by the AGM of the shareholders.". The board also has supervisory responsibility. They approve whatever business plans the executives make, and it's up to the executives to execute them. If the board feels the best plan to maximize value is to partner with LH, then that's what the executives do. The fact that Winkelmann kept his job after making the leasing deal with LH shows he has board approval.

I've lived through one of these things at a US corporation. A "takeover specialist" CEO was chosen by the board and approved by shareholder vote. Many less desirable assets were sold off at whatever cost they could bring. Budget money was shifted from the remaining longer term projects into a smaller number of quicker projects. The longer term things were still funded well enough so a buyer could see their potential, and the short term things were used to generate a lot of positive press. At the right instant, the deal was closed and the new owner announced. Dozens if not hundreds of executives and managers were given "key man bonuses" with giant lump sum payouts timed to when the transaction closed with agreements to stay on for various periods of time, but shortly after the transaction most of them were pushed aside and allowed to find new jobs while keeping the giant lump sums they were already paid. It all stunk to the high heavens, but it was all done in a way that could not be legally challenged.

This is not the same situation (no insolvency) but the point is that it is not illegal to position a company for takeover or for transfer of key assets IF the board thinks this is the best way to preserve shareholder value.

filipair wrote:

I'm sickened to think this is how the supposedly "free market" is supposed to work. I'm sickened that public funds are - with blessings from the EU (aka Germany) - used to facilitate the smooth transition from AB to LH group.

You may want to read the earlier posts about how Germany's "social market economy" differs from a "free market".

However now that the company is insolvent, it is now run by the creditor's committee whose plans are typically subject to court approval.

It'll be interesting to see how the slots get transferred from the insolvent company to LH. I'm sure the proper amount of white wash is being carefully prepared as we speak.

Seahawk, as long as EY signed for the losses there was no insolvency. Talks between EY and LH, which have taken place earier this year, are also perfectly legal and since bilateral Agreements are involved, it was also OK that the federal government was involved. The stupid remark about the"national Champion" by the Transport Minister was obsolete, LH is European Champion and among the top 3 in the world.

The favoring of LH was by the creditors committee and they must pick the best offer, simply because they are oblidged to ALL the creditors. Which simply means that LH and EZY submitted the best offers. To pick up the numbers quoted in the press, € 250 to 350 by LH and Co simply is better than "UP TO" 500 mio pledged by Mr. Wöhrl.

I really do not see any corruption here everything is accountable and can be checked, or do you think that the many People from the KPMGs or similar who supervise and testify theprocedure really take a fiver on the side?

PanHAM wrote:

Seahawk, as long as EY signed for the losses there was no insolvency. Talks between EY and LH, which have taken place earier this year, are also perfectly legal and since bilateral Agreements are involved, it was also OK that the federal government was involved. The stupid remark about the"national Champion" by the Transport Minister was obsolete, LH is European Champion and among the top 3 in the world.

The favoring of LH was by the creditors committee and they must pick the best offer, simply because they are oblidged to ALL the creditors. Which simply means that LH and EZY submitted the best offers. To pick up the numbers quoted in the press, € 250 to 350 by LH and Co simply is better than "UP TO" 500 mio pledged by Mr. Wöhrl.

I really do not see any corruption here everything is accountable and can be checked, or do you think that the many People from the KPMGs or similar who supervise and testify theprocedure really take a fiver on the side?

The election tomorrow will take away the focus on the fact that the LH offer saves 3000 jobs against the Pang offer saving nearly 8000 jobs.....

Bieter Hans Rudolf Wöhrl zeigte sich "entsetzt" über die Entscheidung pro Lufthansa. ... ergänzte, Pangs Angebot über 600 Millionen Euro sehe die Übernahme aller 8000 Air-Berlin-Beschäftigten vor.

Take it with a pinch of salt, but he should have been given the chance to show exactly how he would save all 8000 jobs, clearly not by flying out of Parchim though !

I had a good laugh reading that good old Jonathan will relocate the AB fleet to Parchim. I should have topped that with Cochstedt.

PanHAM wrote:

Seahawk, as long as EY signed for the losses there was no insolvency. Talks between EY and LH, which have taken place earier this year, are also perfectly legal and since bilateral Agreements are involved, it was also OK that the federal government was involved. The stupid remark about the"national Champion" by the Transport Minister was obsolete, LH is European Champion and among the top 3 in the world.

The favoring of LH was by the creditors committee and they must pick the best offer, simply because they are oblidged to ALL the creditors. Which simply means that LH and EZY submitted the best offers. To pick up the numbers quoted in the press, € 250 to 350 by LH and Co simply is better than "UP TO" 500 mio pledged by Mr. Wöhrl.

I really do not see any corruption here everything is accountable and can be checked, or do you think that the many People from the KPMGs or similar who supervise and testify theprocedure really take a fiver on the side?

The question is if EY already had the intention to stop paying for AB when the CEO was repalced.

What is the point of going to Parchim.

Also what background does Mr Pang have?.

PanHAM wrote:

I really do not see any corruption here everything is accountable and can be checked, or do you think that the many People from the KPMGs or similar who supervise and testify theprocedure really take a fiver on the side?

Given the latest cases against Big 4 acocuntantcy firms, this remark is not helping your argument. Their credibility have taken a hit lately (not implying they messed up in this case).

What is Parchim, anyway ?
Any experience with running an airline? Writing some numbers into a letter is easy.
Time is extremely important here. There will not be a second bridge loan, and the government will see to have its money back. And then, holiday season is over, and meagre quarters lie ahead.

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/untern ... 69509.html

It seems like Easy and LH will be pay enough money to fully repay the bridging loan and then some. Talk is about 250-350 Million expected for Niki respectively LGW.

This is a really sad mess of an airline. I enjoyed my experience with them and to see how its carcass is being fought over is terrible. Just shut it down and sell off any remaining valuable assets. That said, I'm surprised Easyjet may not have or is getting Niki. It would have fit perfectly into their Easyjet Europe AOC plan. I wonder if Easyjet saw this coming and chose Austria for their EU AOC in turn.

vfw614 wrote:

- TUIfly has indicated that is prepared to operate some of the 13 Boeing 737 currently operating for airberlin in its own right. There is also some talk that Lufthansa will facilitate the placement of some of the aircraft with SunExpress. I guess in both scenarios we are talking about the 8 Boeing 737-800s, not the 5 Boeing 737-700 which will probably exit the market.

Apparently the contract with TUIfly runs out 2019. So I guess it would make the cost of the contract manageable for LH or provide great negotiation opportunities to lower the costs now in exchange for extending the life of the lease.

seahawk wrote:

I call it criminal and I hope somebody will go to court over it.

forget it
in the meantime goverments of some european states are giving a piece of **** on laws and regulations

and the can do it because their peoples dont care

no doubt, there will be no neatly review of the follow up in the future

LH is reported to have offered 200 Mio € plus 100 Mio € to cover for losses until the deal is closed. Considering the fact that AB is worth nothing this is a good offer.

pompos wrote:

vfw614 wrote:

- TUIfly has indicated that is prepared to operate some of the 13 Boeing 737 currently operating for airberlin in its own right. There is also some talk that Lufthansa will facilitate the placement of some of the aircraft with SunExpress. I guess in both scenarios we are talking about the 8 Boeing 737-800s, not the 5 Boeing 737-700 which will probably exit the market.

Apparently the contract with TUIfly runs out 2019. So I guess it would make the cost of the contract manageable for LH or provide great negotiation opportunities to lower the costs now in exchange for extending the life of the lease.

Sure, but I don't understand why they would touch the aircraft at all. TUIfly has a contract with airberlin. As a result of the inevitable fully-fledged future insolvency, the administrator will be able to cancel the contract and the aircraft will be back with TUIfly presto. If Lufthansa takes over Niki, they will not even get near that contract from a legal point of view. So it would really be a lease starting with a clean sheet of paper.

German aviation website skyliner has a short news flash that airberlin will cease all longhaul ops tomorrow, Sep 25. Not sure if this is a mistake / mix-up with the end of SOME long-haul flights tomorrow as flights to these US destinations are still bookable. Can someone on the ground in the US confirm if tomorrow's flights from SFO, LAX, JFK and MIA to DUS will operate?

More A330s will be heading into storage shortly:

At least 5 #A332 of #AirBerlin will leave fleet tomorrow to Lourdes and 2 to Cardiff @AvgeekMel @Frenchpainter back to lessor.

Two are scheduled for ZRH 25/9: D-ALPD (STA 19:00) / D-ALPE (STA 13:00)

https://twitter.com/skylinerav/status/9 ... 0596526081

OK, that means that will AB will be down to five A330-200 on tuesday evening as flights into storage for 11 A330-200 are apparently scheduled to CWL, LDE and ZRH for the next two days (one is already at ZRH since Sep 11). With that fleet, they cannot maintain the remaining long-haul operation to the US and either have to cut back further on cease longhaul altogether.

Other indicators: Last week, someone from airberlin's social media team on facebook acknowledged the end of all long haul flights on Sep 25 when answering an inquiry from a customer (post was later deleted, IIRC). Also, tomorrow and on on tuesday there are employees meetings in Berlin and Düsseldorf.

Smart move as Germany today is preoccupied with the general election...

Just checked the various sources: Tomorrow's five scheduled longhaul flights (DUS-JFK/MIA/SFO/LAX/JFK) are scheduled with four aircraft for which no ferry flights are known plus one for which a ferry is rumoured for Sep 26. So it could be that long haul flights will still be operated at least on Sep 25.

CWL as Ferry Destination for 2 aircraft could mean that BA wants these for "Level".

Some Information on that bridging loan came up today. KfW charges 1 Mio € for costs and 11% interest p.a.. Considering the fact that Money is available in abundance this is pure Profit for the KfW Bank

PanHAM wrote:

LH is reported to have offered 200 Mio € plus 100 Mio € to cover for losses until the deal is closed. Considering the fact that AB is worth nothing this is a good offer.

Nonsense. Something is worth what another will pay for it, so AB is worth EUR 200M.

PanHAM wrote:

CWL as Ferry Destination for 2 aircraft could mean that BA wants these for "Level".

Some Information on that bridging loan came up today. KfW charges 1 Mio € for costs and 11% interest p.a.. Considering the fact that Money is available in abundance this is pure Profit for the KfW Bank

They aren't going to CWL, they are going to DGX which is St. Athan. I can't see them ending up at Level as their fleet and the Iberia fleet of A330s are all GE CF6-80 powered and all the Air Berlin ones are PW4000 powered. I think the two going to ZRH (along with XD which is already there) will get new homes quickly, most likely Eurowings or Condor, and the ones going to LDE will be long term. For info, our systems are still showing ops on JFK, MIA and RSW. The LAX flights already show cancelled. One strange thing that I think is an error is that D-ALPB shows going to DGX, but then shows being back in service at the end of the week !

Today's positioning Flights....

LDE - XC, XE, XF, PC, PG, PI, PJ
ZRH - PD, PE

26th....

DGX - PB, PF

That leaves five in the Fleet with XD already in ZRH.

XA, XB, XG, PA and PH are all showing on various SFO, JFK, MIA, RSW flights in the System as far out as the end of October. Too scared to look past that (joking, we know we are finished) ! It is still possible that they will completely stop all Longhaul as per some comments previously. It's impossible to say until any official statement. A couple of strange ones in the System, must be errors, PB operating a LAX flight on Saturday, but the route is stopped and PB will be in DGX, and a TXL - VRA - TXL rotation in October when all Caribbean ops are already stopped as of today.

UPDATE: First three are already on their way down to LDE. Pretty sad for me to be writing this at the moment.

And here we go:

Airbus A330 -223 444 D-ALPC Air Berlin ferried 25sep17 DUS-LDE on return to lessor (+ 493 D-ALPG, + 911 D-ALPJ) ex F-WWKD

Airbus A330 -223 454 D-ALPD Air Berlin ferried 25sep17 TXL-ZRH on return to lessor (+ 469 D-ALPE) ex F-WWKG

Revelation wrote:

It'll be interesting to see how the slots get transferred from the insolvent company to LH. I'm sure the proper amount of white wash is being carefully prepared as we speak.

.... as long as they are flying that is no problem and they are just bought with the company.

best regards
Thomas

Remaining five A330s leave the fleet on 15th October now according to an update from the CEO.

LTU330 wrote:

Remaining five A330s leave the fleet on 15th October now according to an update from the CEO.

Looking in the system the last flights are on the 15th. They arrive back on the 16th from RSW, MIA and JFK. Then they will be off to Storage or Refurbishment soon after.

LTU330 wrote:

UPDATE: First three are already on their way down to LDE. Pretty sad for me to be writing this at the moment.

I feel for you. I've recently gone through an unplanned job transition and it's very stressful. Do your best to stay as positive as you can. We're all very good at projecting negative things, it helps to understand that much of what we're thinking could happen will not happen. It can turn out better than you thought. I know it did for me. My new job is much less stressful and pays a similar amount. I'm now a lot less emotionally engaged than I was at my last job, which was a good lesson for me to learn. In my new job, if I had another unplanned transition, I'd be fine with it. It's a good job, but it's still just a job. It doesn't define who I am.

tommy1808 wrote:

.... as long as they are flying that is no problem and they are just bought with the company.

Unfortunately not all will remain flying.

Revelation wrote:

LTU330 wrote:

UPDATE: First three are already on their way down to LDE. Pretty sad for me to be writing this at the moment.

I feel for you. I've recently gone through an unplanned job transition and it's very stressful. Do your best to stay as positive as you can. We're all very good at projecting negative things, it helps to understand that much of what we're thinking could happen will not happen. It can turn out better than you thought. I know it did for me. My new job is much less stressful and pays a similar amount. I'm now a lot less emotionally engaged than I was at my last job, which was a good lesson for me to learn. In my new job, if I had another unplanned transition, I'd be fine with it. It's a good job, but it's still just a job. It doesn't define who I am.

tommy1808 wrote:

.... as long as they are flying that is no problem and they are just bought with the company.

Unfortunately not all will remain flying.

Thanks for the kind words Revelation. I am resigned to looking elsewhere now. It seems there is no interest to do anything at MUC. Time for some more training I think and move on to pastures new. Just hope I get to stay in Bavaria at the end of it all. I have had too many other personal situation issues in the last year and a half already without having to move as well.

The movement of "PF" to DGX is changed to Wednesday now....

That leaves five in the Fleet with XD already in ZRH.

XA, XB, XG, PA and PH are all showing on various SFO, JFK, MIA, RSW flights in the System as far out as the end of October

Can five aircraft realistically operate twice-daily flights to JFK, daily flights to MIA and SFO and 3/4 (?) weekly flights to RSW? That looks like a pretty tight ship.

airberlin have confirmed they will cease all long-haul flights by 15 October 2017. HAM-MUC and CGN-MUC will end on 29 September.

They blame lessors for withdrawing their A330 aircraft. DUS-LAX will end (has ended) today.

For the long haul flights, this was long in the GDS' as I had reported (the zero'ing of flights).

Revelation wrote:

Unfortunately not all will remain flying.

Yup, but I am fairly confident they won't axe anything that is valuable in terms of slots. Neither LH nor EZ will be very interested in those long haul slots, the latter because they don't fly long haul, the former because they have all the slots they need, and I would assume UA would need to buy some of AB or pay LH half of the slot value due to the JV.
I don't see any specific slots-hard-to-get destination in their European network that LH or EZ would be espechilly interested in, so this is mostly slots in DUS and TXL, and I guess both potential buyers can afford to lose some of them.

Best regards
Thomas

Very sad to see indeed... 4 330s in the air now heading to LDE...

LTU330 I wish you all the best and good luck

AlexA340B777 wrote:

4 330s in the air now heading to LDE...

Make that 6 A330s.

What a sight!

This comes in addition to the 3 A330s that have been ferried to LDE this morning:



And the first A330 that left the fleet in early September:



Air Berlin is now down to 7 A330s.

Interesting post by an AB employee in a German forum: He says that the employees today were informed that easyjet is not interested in operating from DUS, but only want to take over a large number of A320s for a TXL-base. And another surprising information was that Lufthansa wants to take over both Niki and LGW (apparently incl. the Q400s, at least initially).

vfw614 wrote:

Interesting post by an AB employee in a German forum: He says that the employees today were informed that easyjet is not interested in operating from DUS, but only want to take over a large number of A320s for a TXL-base. And another surprising information was that Lufthansa wants to take over both Niki and LGW (apparently incl. the Q400s, at least initially).

I think easyjet could do well in TXL and DUS. They could do a multiple base in city strategy in Berlin just like they do in Paris (CDG/ORY hubs), London (STN, LTN, LGW, SEN bases)

Revelation wrote:

PanHAM wrote:

LH is reported to have offered 200 Mio € plus 100 Mio € to cover for losses until the deal is closed. Considering the fact that AB is worth nothing this is a good offer.

Nonsense. Something is worth what another will pay for it, so AB is worth EUR 200M.

Well, the assets of AB are worth 200m+. The company is worth nothing, because of the debt - though the shares still trade for a market cap of 50m.

Now Ryanair need to put 4 planes with crews to MUC take the open slots an go MUC-HAM and MUC-CGN every 1.5 hours shuttle.

anstar wrote:

vfw614 wrote:

Interesting post by an AB employee in a German forum: He says that the employees today were informed that easyjet is not interested in operating from DUS, but only want to take over a large number of A320s for a TXL-base. And another surprising information was that Lufthansa wants to take over both Niki and LGW (apparently incl. the Q400s, at least initially).

I think easyjet could do well in TXL and DUS. They could do a multiple base in city strategy in Berlin just like they do in Paris (CDG/ORY hubs), London (STN, LTN, LGW, SEN bases)

EasyJet used to operate at DUS and they left.

I assume the main difference for U2 is that DUS is a very German-point-of-sale market and they might scared of Eurowings becoming too big there (and CGN) + Ryanair at CGN/NRN, and then the leisure routes have the Condor, Germanias, etc.

Berlin is a more a big city break destination with more growing opportunities so it is also easier to sell the easyJet brand abroad. Also Eurowings has comparatively less presence than in DUS.

SCQ83 wrote:

anstar wrote:

vfw614 wrote:

Interesting post by an AB employee in a German forum: He says that the employees today were informed that easyjet is not interested in operating from DUS, but only want to take over a large number of A320s for a TXL-base. And another surprising information was that Lufthansa wants to take over both Niki and LGW (apparently incl. the Q400s, at least initially).

I think easyjet could do well in TXL and DUS. They could do a multiple base in city strategy in Berlin just like they do in Paris (CDG/ORY hubs), London (STN, LTN, LGW, SEN bases)

EasyJet used to operate at DUS and they left.

I assume the main difference for U2 is that DUS is a very German-point-of-sale market and they might scared of Eurowings becoming too big there (and CGN) + Ryanair at CGN/NRN, and then the leisure routes have the Condor, Germanias, etc.

Berlin is a more a big city break destination with more growing opportunities so it is also easier to sell the easyJet brand abroad. Also Eurowings has comparatively less presence than in DUS.

The difference is really that easyJet are already present in the Berlin market and I would assume their logic is that if they do not go for Berlin now they will be cornered by a larger EW and FR. They might as well grow whilst they can in Berlin.

This fits in with easyJet's strategy of trying to grow where they are strong and moving away from weaker markets. That said, easyJet is still relatively weak in some aspects in Berlin - notably no domestic routes. Acquiring the TXL operation would solve that problem and better position them whether or not everything moves over to BER in the long run.

DUS is whole different animal - EZY was unable to make DUS work to LGW and would now come in with zero presence. In fact if you look at the entire Ruhr region and beyond (including CGN, FRA), easyJet is down to only 1 daily flight to DTM. DTM is also a failed base, so perhaps that is still in people's minds at EZY HQ.

So going all in at TXL/BER seems like the logical thing to do rather than spreading resources and risking loosing a battle against EW who will have (in any case) a huge (monopolistic) market share at DUS.

Delta777Jet wrote:

Now Ryanair need to put 4 planes with crews to MUC take the open slots an go MUC-HAM and MUC-CGN every 1.5 hours shuttle.

HAM maybe, but the load factors on MUC - CGN - MUC have been abysmal. I have seen on most flights (AB) loads of less than 100 pax for over a year. These flights were normally operated by the Tui 737s which makes it even worse as there was no chance to make any money on that route due to the ridiculous contract costs. HAM load factors normally above 90% so that would be a winner for FR, unless of course LH drop the price to next to nothing to keep them out of the market.

Delta777Jet wrote:

Now Ryanair need to put 4 planes with crews to MUC take the open slots an go MUC-HAM and MUC-CGN every 1.5 hours shuttle.

FR had that Chance already on FRA routes like FRA to HAM and SXF/TXL. They are not interested in big scale German domestic, too complicated. Besides, a shuttle at fix hours. That would be consumer oriented. Nothing for FR, they fly when it makes Money for them. Besides, FR has no international connecting traffic which is a big chunk on hub routes

I wonder who will fill the void at DUS

Easy and EW.

Two more A330 ferry flights are scheduled for today, bringing the fleet down to just 5 aircraft:

Airbus A330 -223 423 D-ALPB Air Berlin ferried 26sep17 DUS-DGX on return to lessor (+ 476 D-ALPF) ex F-WWYG

I'd love a U2 hub at TXL. Good way to use some of my Emirates miles and get to avoid SXF.

KarelXWB wrote:

Two more A330 ferry flights are scheduled for today, bringing the fleet down to just 5 aircraft:

Airbus A330 -223 423 D-ALPB Air Berlin ferried 26sep17 DUS-DGX on return to lessor (+ 476 D-ALPF) ex F-WWYG

I guess that info is from Skyliners ? According to our AIMS System D-ALPB will ferry tomorrow (Wednesday) to DGX. D-ALPF goes today.

I haven't seen this stated anywhere, but Walsh confirms that IAG has submitted a firm bid for AB (article does not specify if all or parts of it though), but he expects LH to come out as winner [who doesn't?].

Article in Spanish:
http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/09/ ... b45c6.html

The current airberlin CEO Thomas Winkelmann did come from a leading position within the LH Group. He had been with LH for 19 years, being the CEo of Germanwings and later the CEO of the Munich Hub while also representing LH in the board of directors at jetblue. And this guy left LH for airberlin in February of 2017 - does this sound legit to you?

No? You think that Herr Winkelmann has had the BEST intentions for Air Berlin? That his mission every day on the job was to help Air Berlin develop into a thriving, profitable, sustainable airline in the European marketplace?

Now how can LH have appointed him ? Not possible.

As I have posted earlier in this long thread, Winkelmann is what you call a Trojan horse. He was placed there by LH to prepare AB for bankruptcy and takeover. What we are seeing now was already planned in february, after a meeting of Spohr, Merkel and Etihad in AUH. Spohr needed EY's approval to place his Trojan in the company - that was part of the thn announced LH-EY "alliance". For EY, it offered a way to get out of the ruinous AB. But the whole thing needed political approval as it would result in a domestic monop...err...national champion. That's where Merkel comes in.

By the way, a trojan horse is perfectly legal and not uncommon business practice (see Microsoft with Nokia). Whether it is morally acceptable, and whether it has to more to do with crony capitalism than with open competition, is another debate.

DTM is also a failed base

In this case, it is not U2's fault however. The whole strategy depended on the administration extending the night curfew from 2200 to 2300, which didn't happen. Needless to say, you can't operate a base at an airport that closes at 2200. So that was the end of the story.

DUS will really lose a lot of US connections from this event. AFAIK the only DUS-USA that will still operate (and is not AB) is DL DUS-ATL. UA and AA don't operate there. However, I wouldn't be surprised if we see UA/AA start JFK/EWR/ORD-DUS soon.

What are the breakdown of a/c in each base left? I cant find any info on that