Some statements from the CEO:
"Have had talks with more than 10 interested buyers" "of which several are airlines."
"There will be 2 or 3 buyers".
"We want to close the sale in september, otherwise trust in the airline will vanish."

The German government also seems to now admit that a full takeover is not possible for competition reasons.

http://www.airliners.de/air-berlin-verk ... indt/42157

More info on market shares. This article has a graphic showing AB's top 10 routes by pax number.
Spoiler: 7 of them are domestic, 2 are "pseudodomestic" (within the German-speaking world / LH core countries), with only LH as competitor. Just one is on a more European scale (PMI).

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/u ... 57739.html

Voices are getting louder and rightfully so: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/p ... -1.3634846

It looks to me that this insolvency has been long in the planning. Probably since Mrs Merkel and Mr Spohr visited the UAE earlier this year. Lufthansa seem to have been offered first pickings of the Air Berlin carcass, otherwise why would the interest of Hans Rudolph Wöhrl (and his backers) to keep Air Berlin as going concern with all the staff not be looked at, as opposed to Lufthansa taking only Aircraft and Crews ? The Wöhrl scenario would also prevent a problem regarding monopolies. Like I say, it does not matter what people think of Air Berlin, something is not sitting right with how this insolvency is panning out.

Wöhrl would need to show to be in a financial position to keep the airline running until a turn around is achieved. So far he did not do so convincingly. However the insolvency is full of corruption, as other much more serious contenders have been refused access to the AB data. The EU needs to stop the proceedings right now.

The insolvency was indeed a foreseeable Event.. Tje government had a choice, letting AB die immediately by pulling the AOC (which is mandatory when financing of the ops is no longer available) or back a bridging credit to Keep AB alive until the sale of parts or the whole Business is closed.

The first alternative would not have been free of chare and likely more expensive than Version 2. Employees here are not left Standing in the rain, they are suppported by Job Center payments and that includes health and Pension insurance. Furthermore, creditors would have written off their receivables, reducing their tax payments, The 150 mio bridging credit will likely paid back to the KfW, not by selling Slots but by paying for what the buyers will get.

LH never wanted all of AB, they have no use for te DH8s, what they want is reprtedly the aircraft they fly already plus "Niki" plus the Long haul fleet and leisure cargo and the humber of employees to run that part. The rest will go to others, maybe Easy

Mr. Wölhrls propoal is on the desk and will likely be leaked today or tomorrow. It will be interesting to look at but if that proposal is not workable, there is no one else but LH to Digest and sustain the Operation of the left overs. Political interventions like taking away Slots and giving These to the poor have always failed rather in the short than the long run.

C010T3 wrote:

Voices are getting louder and rightfully so: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/p ... -1.3634846

What exactly was the German government supposed to do then? Let Ryanair take over on zero hour contracts, would that be better than AB salary cuts? Let U2 take over, would they retain the A330s or that many A320s/319s? Would either FR or U2 do anything to continue employing the headquarters staff at Saatwinkler Damm in Berlin?

LTU330 wrote:

It looks to me that this insolvency has been long in the planning. Probably since Mrs Merkel and Mr Spohr visited the UAE earlier this year. Lufthansa seem to have been offered first pickings of the Air Berlin carcass, otherwise why would the interest of Hans Rudolph Wöhrl (and his backers) to keep Air Berlin as going concern with all the staff not be looked at, as opposed to Lufthansa taking only Aircraft and Crews ? The Wöhrl scenario would also prevent a problem regarding monopolies. Like I say, it does not matter what people think of Air Berlin, something is not sitting right with how this insolvency is panning out.

The whole industry knew this day would come. LH Group prepared far better than others and made a commitment, notably through the wet leases. They talked to EY about buying AB outright and this would have been done months ago had it not been for EY's insistence that LH take on AB's billion euro debt.

Merkel and Spohr were in the UAE to negotiate an orderly sale of AB. If anyone had control over planning AB's insolvency it was EY, but in the wake of Mr. Hogan's departure they simply may not have been ready at the time to accept their loss of investment with AB. That changed drastically and abruptly now, but it's also a decision on the part of EY that neither LH nor the German government had planned.

Mr. Wöhrl could have used the past seven years to update the valuations on AB so that he has a precise offer for AB when the time is right. Moreover, if his offer is that great and it's suspected that the government backs LH in spite of not being the best option, then why not publish the amounts Mr. Wöhrl is offering to make it obvious to the voting public that his offer is better?

Slot reductions will equal fleet transfer reductions, which will equate to job losses.

ua900 wrote:

What exactly was the German government supposed to do then? Let Ryanair take over on zero hour contracts, would that be better than AB salary cuts? Let U2 take over, would they retain the A330s or that many A320s/319s? Would either FR or U2 do anything to continue employing the headquarters staff at Saatwinkler Damm in Berlin?

If I had to rely on Lufthansa to get home regularly I'd only see family once or twice a year because their prices are unaffordable on any route on which they operate a monopoly/duopoly.
You seem to be pro-industry and not pro-consumer.
Ryanair and other LCCs are allowing people to fly across Europe at prices which can only be dreamed of in the rest of the world.

The consumer hasn't got lobbyists to whisper in the ear of Government or set the mood music in the media.
Today as I was driving to work I was hearing the competition authority speaking out saying that the politicians should remember whose interests they should be serving.

ua900 wrote:

C010T3 wrote:

Voices are getting louder and rightfully so: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/p ... -1.3634846

What exactly was the German government supposed to do then? Let Ryanair take over on zero hour contracts, would that be better than AB salary cuts? Let U2 take over, would they retain the A330s or that many A320s/319s? Would either FR or U2 do anything to continue employing the headquarters staff at Saatwinkler Damm in Berlin?

LTU330 wrote:

It looks to me that this insolvency has been long in the planning. Probably since Mrs Merkel and Mr Spohr visited the UAE earlier this year. Lufthansa seem to have been offered first pickings of the Air Berlin carcass, otherwise why would the interest of Hans Rudolph Wöhrl (and his backers) to keep Air Berlin as going concern with all the staff not be looked at, as opposed to Lufthansa taking only Aircraft and Crews ? The Wöhrl scenario would also prevent a problem regarding monopolies. Like I say, it does not matter what people think of Air Berlin, something is not sitting right with how this insolvency is panning out.

The whole industry knew this day would come. LH Group prepared far better than others and made a commitment, notably through the wet leases. They talked to EY about buying AB outright and this would have been done months ago had it not been for EY's insistence that LH take on AB's billion euro debt.

Merkel and Spohr were in the UAE to negotiate an orderly sale of AB. If anyone had control over planning AB's insolvency it was EY, but in the wake of Mr. Hogan's departure they simply may not have been ready at the time to accept their loss of investment with AB. That changed drastically and abruptly now, but it's also a decision on the part of EY that neither LH nor the German government had planned.

Mr. Wöhrl could have used the past seven years to update the valuations on AB so that he has a precise offer for AB when the time is right. Moreover, if his offer is that great and it's suspected that the government backs LH in spite of not being the best option, then why not publish the amounts Mr. Wöhrl is offering to make it obvious to the voting public that his offer is better?

Slot reductions will equal fleet transfer reductions, which will equate to job losses.

The problem I have is that a Government person last week (I can not remember his name right now) actually said that Air Berlin has to be split up. It only "has" to be split up if that is what has been agreed already between LH and EY and the Government. To not even look at any other proposal clearly implies a collusion between those three groups and AB. Whatever people think, and I am one of them, regarding the absolutely ridiculous miss management of AB from the Mehdorn era onward, the people on the shop floor are actually very hard working and loyal, but are now getting (too late) tired of the constant stream of useless information from the Management team. With regard to being looked after, I calculate that I will be 1600 Euro minus per month when I go to the Arbeitsamt compared to my current monthly income, which is the average for my position in any Airline I have contacts at, and actually a lot less than at British Airways where I previously worked. Still, maybe we get offered positions in any new MRO called Eurowing/Easyjet/Condor/Ryanair Europe and then maybe I am only 1400 Euro worse off but working 40 hours instead of zero hours I need to dust off my 777 course notes and say hello to Fedex.

The nice Thing about Germany is that the interests of all People are protected... If all carriers Charge the lowest FR Prices, there would not be a single carrier alive, including Ryanair And if it would only be FR, air Transport would be a miserable experience. But also the interests of the employees are looked after and that is one of the reasons that FR flies next to None domestic route in Germany. Pilot contractswith Zero hours for self employed pilots are simply illegal. Low pay for FAs would not hold up. What can be regulated for Polish truck Drivers driving on Kabotage in Germany can be done for FR employees as well. MOL know that.

So do't expect tickets that are cheaper than a subsidized bus ticket that gets you to the Airport. Everything has it's Price and that will catch up with FR sooner or later.

PanHAM wrote:

The nice Thing about Germany is that the interests of all People are protected... If all carriers Charge the lowest FR Prices, there would not be a single carrier alive, including Ryanair And if it would only be FR, air Transport would be a miserable experience. But also the interests of the employees are looked after and that is one of the reasons that FR flies next to None domestic route in Germany. Pilot contractswith Zero hours for self employed pilots are simply illegal. Low pay for FAs would not hold up. What can be regulated for Polish truck Drivers driving on Kabotage in Germany can be done for FR employees as well. MOL know that.

So do't expect tickets that are cheaper than a subsidized bus ticket that gets you to the Airport. Everything has it's Price and that will catch up with FR sooner or later.

Well said PanHAM. Some people are simply obsessed with cheap flights. They give not a single consideration to the conditions of the people working for the company. I would be happy to take a big pay cut if the owner of my Apartment also then accepts that I pay less to him, and the Agip Tankstelle let's me get fuel for half the normal price. But this will not happen. My cost of living will remain the same if I work for Lufthansa, Air Berlin or Ryanair. The difference is that two of those companies look (or looked) after their Employees by giving them a living wage, the other doesn't give a.......

35 years in business and you are predicitng Ryanair's imminent demise.

You see things as you want them to be not how they are and what you want is not in the interests of the consumer/public.

It was announced last week that the Irish are the best travelled people in the world.
They weren't always the best travelled. The Irish used to have an American wake because when they emigrated they never came back and were as good as dead.
Thanks to LCCs such as Ryanair and price competition that is no longer the case.

People seem to think that relatively unskilled workers are protected in Germany. They are not. Unskilled works in Germany earn meagre wages.
Excluding LCCs to the benefit of Lufthansa in the bidding process only benefits Lufthansa. Lufthansa have no intention of extending existing Lufthansa terms and conditions to these employees of Air Berlin. They've be moved to a vehicle which can be managed with the least possible Governmental or Union interference.
Lufthansa are not the good guys.

Exactly. And while FR has not right to demand the full liquidation of the company and the auctioning of shares, LH has no right for first pick either.

The interest of the customer outweighs the interest of the employees, therefore finding a buyer that will compete with LH is most important.

Leghorn, i did not predict FRs demise, what I said was that one day the labor laws in Germany willl catch up with them. The compnsation of the pilots with 0 hour contracts as self employed is simply illegal. Same as the quoted Polish truck Driver on a German domestic trip must be paid Grman Minimum wage. FR avoids that by flying mainly internationally , simple trick. MOL is not interested to buy anything from the AB shambles. He interested in free PR and the stupid press buys that and gives him plenty.


The m&m commission has said that there won't be a single bidder. i wonder why, LH has always said that they are not interested in LGW and leave most of the unassigned 320s to Easyjet. They want Niki, they want Leisure Cargo and they want the Long range fleet. Who else but LH could handle the 17 A330?

leghorn wrote:

You see things as you want them to be not how they are and what you want is not in the interests of the consumer/public.

Ryan Air's "employment model" is problematic to say the least.
the second leg they stand on is the (contested) Irish tax scheme.

PanHAM wrote:

What can be regulated for Polish truck Drivers driving on Kabotage in Germany can be done for FR employees as well. MOL know that.

But, that's old fashioned protectionism, nothing else.

L410Turbolet wrote:

But, that's old fashioned protectionism, nothing else.

Well, if the thing that's about to be protected are employees' rights, then hooray for protectionism!

leghorn wrote:

People seem to think that relatively unskilled workers are protected in Germany. They are not. Unskilled works in Germany earn meagre wages.
Excluding LCCs to the benefit of Lufthansa in the bidding process only benefits Lufthansa. Lufthansa have no intention of extending existing Lufthansa terms and conditions to these employees of Air Berlin. They've be moved to a vehicle which can be managed with the least possible Governmental or Union interference.
Lufthansa are not the good guys.

Leghorn: Unskilled workers in Germany earn a minimum wage, and I think at the moment that stands at 8.50 Euro/hour. Now compare that to the minimum wage in Portugal which is also an EU country.
What part of working for an Airline, Pilot, Cabin Crew, Licensed Engineer is unskilled ? All have training. For me an unskilled worker cleans toilets or stacks shelves, and even that needs a little training. So I should ignore the fact that I have more than 35 years experience and training in the Aviation industry and then now accept a shit wage that that won't cover my outgoings just so everyone can have cheap flights ? I want cheaper fuel for my car. Let's pay everyone in the Oil industry 8.50 Euro per hour to make that happen. I am just now reminded from a friend who works in security at MUC T2. Some people there on mini jobs (450 Euro/month) are paid 10 euro per hour to sit and watch that everyone gets on the little train out to the T2 satellite OK. Embarrassing that you can earn more doing that than a Cabin crew member or qualified Mechanic can earn working for a company like Ryanair.

L410Turbolet wrote:

PanHAM wrote:

What can be regulated for Polish truck Drivers driving on Kabotage in Germany can be done for FR employees as well. MOL know that.

But, that's old fashioned protectionism, nothing else.

It's not protectionism, it's called having a minimum wage, like the other 20 odd EU countries have. It just happens that the minimum wage in Germany is higher than some of the other EU Countries, and that is because if it wasn't, no one could afford to live in Germany !

Some people are simply obsessed with cheap flights

Nobody is demanding cheap flights. But we are demanding fairly priced flights. And AB guarantees that on many routes where it is LH's sole competitor. They still go for 180-200EUR round trip, but that's way better than what a LH monopoly would ask for.
I have already shown that the minimum price for a German domestic round-trip is around 150EUR, set by taxes. Not even FR can go below that sustainably - that is why they are not interested in German domestic. But the maximum price is set by competition - today it is AB. But tomorrow?

Who else but LH could handle the 17 A330?

If this insolvency had happened a year later: Level. But now it's a bit far-fetched. IAG could still use at least a handful of them however.

L410Turbolet wrote:

PanHAM wrote:

What can be regulated for Polish truck Drivers driving on Kabotage in Germany can be done for FR employees as well. MOL know that.

But, that's old fashioned protectionism, nothing else.

Who is protected? The Polish truck Driver who makes more than his Boss when driving Kabotage.

I took this example because it fits what FR is doing, rather not doing because they avoid German domestic flying by all means, it could ruin their Business Modell. MOL should sht up, he has no dice in the AB game

Has anyone notioced how quet AFKL and BA(IAG are. They all have burned their noses on other turf

PanHAM wrote:

Who is protected? The Polish truck Driver who makes more than his Boss when driving Kabotage.

I took this example because it fits what FR is doing, rather not doing because they avoid German domestic flying by all means, it could ruin their Business Modell. MOL should sht up, he has no dice in the AB game

LH is being protected from the spectre of a bunch of slots being made available to its competitors.

Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) analyst Damian Brewer believes that a Lufthansa takeover would indeed mainly be to thwart the likes of Ryanair. "For Lufthansa we see any moves as defensive - blocking other more competitive airlines from expanding. Air Berlin's Düsseldorf airport slots would likely be a valuable asset to Lufthansa while freezing new entrants out, unless the German authorities require slots to be surrendered to new entrants," he said in a note.

Ref: http://www.dw.com/en/airlines-swoop-in- ... a-40111787

The new entrant does not mean FR, though. Easy for example would tick the box just as well, or Condor opening additional routes. It could also be Wizz, Norwegian or Vueling, there is no legal right for FR to be considered, especially not if any of the other bidders is willing to pay for the slots or hire AB employees.

For the customer though it would be great when 50% of the AB slots go to FR . I mean who does not love cheap tickets?

LTU330 wrote:

leghorn wrote:

People seem to think that relatively unskilled workers are protected in Germany. They are not. Unskilled works in Germany earn meagre wages.
Excluding LCCs to the benefit of Lufthansa in the bidding process only benefits Lufthansa. Lufthansa have no intention of extending existing Lufthansa terms and conditions to these employees of Air Berlin. They've be moved to a vehicle which can be managed with the least possible Governmental or Union interference.
Lufthansa are not the good guys.

Leghorn: Unskilled workers in Germany earn a minimum wage, and I think at the moment that stands at 8.50 Euro/hour. Now compare that to the minimum wage in Portugal which is also an EU country.
What part of working for an Airline, Pilot, Cabin Crew, Licensed Engineer is unskilled ? All have training. For me an unskilled worker cleans toilets or stacks shelves, and even that needs a little training. So I should ignore the fact that I have more than 35 years experience and training in the Aviation industry and then now accept a shit wage that that won't cover my outgoings just so everyone can have cheap flights ? I want cheaper fuel for my car. Let's pay everyone in the Oil industry 8.50 Euro per hour to make that happen. I am just now reminded from a friend who works in security at MUC T2. Some people there on mini jobs (450 Euro/month) are paid 10 euro per hour to sit and watch that everyone gets on the little train out to the T2 satellite OK. Embarrassing that you can earn more doing that than a Cabin crew member or qualified Mechanic can earn working for a company like Ryanair.

This is all scaremongering with no proof and is the type of rubbish I hear from stop stewards in state owned monopoly transport companies back home run for the benefit of the staff not the travelling public.
Ryanair pay above minimum wage for cabin crew in Ireland and in countries with near full employment like Ireland and Poland they and other employers have had to review renumeration to retain staff.

I have seen how bad transport companies who establish monopoly positions can be in terms of service and value for money to their Customers so I am not distracted by your whataboutery.

leghorn wrote:

Lufthansa are not the good guys.

And Ryanair is?

How much then is Irish Minimum wage and do they also have 6 weeks paid vacation, employers share of health and retirement, unemployed insurance? That raises the costs )oh I forgot sick pay= Minimum wage to over 12 € per hour.

I fell pity for AB staff who will have a choice between accepting Sub Standard wages, but that happens in other fields of employment as well. We have not been prepared about the single market..Many People here complain about the lack of competitio but actually we have far more competition within the ECAA than in the USA. Only Germany does not have that valve called Chapter 11. What happens with AB right now does not come Close to chapter 11. At least People here do not lose their state pensions and if AB has had a Company scheme These are usually protected from Administrators.

Now, if Vuelling, WIZZ would want to Play a role in Germany, they could do that without much asking. Norwegian has plans for DUS, now, why don't they take the Chance to fly domestic? Perfect Chance to get feed for their planned l/d Services from DUS.

And, i think it was Leghorn who compared domestic fares of AB and "expensive" LH. Guess what, LH is profitable and AB was not. Companies HAVE to be profitable, there is no way around that, it is mandatroy and FR is a perfect example on how it works when you Train self loading cargo to fly when THEY want and rip them off with all These little side charges for instance reserved sat, priority Boarding to avoid getting run over by younger peole who expect to pay nothing but grab the best seats for that. FR is wonderful for their stockholders. They make mones endlessly because they brainwashed their Pax every day suggesting them that they are cheap. What works for Aldi and Ikea works for FR, AB was messed up a Long time ago, they should have done that re-orgaisation 10 ears ago

And Easy will take many slots anyway.

http://www.airliners.de/bericht-diesen- ... ign=buffer

About half of the AB slots at DUS are going to Easy according to that article including the intra German routes (maybe except STR where EW had no service so far) Imho FR is mostly pissed because it seems that at least 3 competitors worked together to block them out.

PanHAM wrote:

How much then is Irish Minimum wage

higher than Germany.
9.25 p.h.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/em ... tml#l1f4da

leghorn wrote:

LTU330 wrote:

leghorn wrote:

People seem to think that relatively unskilled workers are protected in Germany. They are not. Unskilled works in Germany earn meagre wages.
Excluding LCCs to the benefit of Lufthansa in the bidding process only benefits Lufthansa. Lufthansa have no intention of extending existing Lufthansa terms and conditions to these employees of Air Berlin. They've be moved to a vehicle which can be managed with the least possible Governmental or Union interference.
Lufthansa are not the good guys.

Leghorn: Unskilled workers in Germany earn a minimum wage, and I think at the moment that stands at 8.50 Euro/hour. Now compare that to the minimum wage in Portugal which is also an EU country.
What part of working for an Airline, Pilot, Cabin Crew, Licensed Engineer is unskilled ? All have training. For me an unskilled worker cleans toilets or stacks shelves, and even that needs a little training. So I should ignore the fact that I have more than 35 years experience and training in the Aviation industry and then now accept a shit wage that that won't cover my outgoings just so everyone can have cheap flights ? I want cheaper fuel for my car. Let's pay everyone in the Oil industry 8.50 Euro per hour to make that happen. I am just now reminded from a friend who works in security at MUC T2. Some people there on mini jobs (450 Euro/month) are paid 10 euro per hour to sit and watch that everyone gets on the little train out to the T2 satellite OK. Embarrassing that you can earn more doing that than a Cabin crew member or qualified Mechanic can earn working for a company like Ryanair.

This is all scaremongering with no proof and is the type of rubbish I hear from stop stewards in state owned monopoly transport companies back home run for the benefit of the staff not the travelling public.
Ryanair pay above minimum wage for cabin crew in Ireland and in countries with near full employment like Ireland and Poland they and other employers have had to review renumeration to retain staff.

I have seen how bad transport companies who establish monopoly positions can be in terms of service and value for money to their Customers so I am not distracted by your whataboutery.

Well I'm no Shop Steward and I was from a Military life before joining the Civilian world of Aviation and detest Unions, but there is no scaremongering in what I say. Even Spohr says he will welcome a lot of Air Berlin staff but not in their contracts. That means less money, full stop. Now I can go to the Arbeitsamt and sit and do nothing and be paid around 1600 Euro per month less than I get now, or I can go to the "new" company whatever it will be called, and work 40 hours per week and get still more than 1000 Euro less per month, so in effect working 40 hours a week for effectively 150 euro per week when related to what I get to just do nothing, neither of which options pays my house and expenses anyway. Then, how do you now class value for money ? Is the value for money in your world not simply the cheapest option irrespective of how they manage it ?

From the Ryanair website: Cabin Crew. Pay after tax 1200 to 1500 euro. It could be less than 1000 euro depending on standby or if you are sick. Training takes six weeks and you pay it yourself (around 2000 euro). It sounds like a fantastic company to work for, I should have applied when they started years ago. Now, try living on that if you live in any place in Germany. Glad I am not Cabin Crew, although I am getting pretty tired of this industry now.

LTU330 wrote:

Well I'm no Shop Steward and I was from a Military life before joining the Civilian world of Aviation and detest Unions, but there is no scaremongering in what I say. Even Spohr says he will welcome a lot of Air Berlin staff but not in their contracts. That means less money, full stop. Now I can go to the Arbeitsamt and sit and do nothing and be paid around 1600 Euro per month less than I get now, or I can go to the "new" company whatever it will be called, and work 40 hours per week and get still more than 1000 Euro less per month, so in effect working 40 hours a week for effectively 150 euro per week when related to what I get to just do nothing, neither of which options pays my house and expenses anyway. Then, how do you now class value for money ? Is the value for money in your world not simply the cheapest option irrespective of how they manage it ?

I'm sorry but they are currently working for a failing company. If you think all the employees are going to come out of this with equal or greater pay and benefits than current you are living in a dreamworld. Nobody is going to take the employees with the same contracts (there is a reason "Eurowings" is constantly mentioned in the same breath as LH taking over AB). If the pay the employees where receiving was actually sustainable based on the revenue coming in then Air Berlin would not be the verge of collapse and we would not be having this discussion in the first place.

LTU330 wrote:

From the Ryanair website: Cabin Crew. Pay after tax 1200 to 1500 euro. It could be less than 1000 euro depending on standby or if you are sick. Training takes six weeks and you pay it yourself (around 2000 euro). It sounds like a fantastic company to work for, I should have applied when they started years ago. Now, try living on that if you live in any place in Germany. Glad I am not Cabin Crew, although I am getting pretty tired of this industry now.

I have earned less than that for most of my working life, and survived well, could even raise family (my spouse's average salary is also in the same ballpark). And we both have studied years to get higher academic degrees.

I feel absolutely zero sympathy for those who try to play martyrs when getting such salaries - or even worse, high paid persons getting a little less high salary. There are words for people like that but I do not want to mention them.

IMO, all the salaries of the aviation professionals could be halved overnight. They would still earn much more than an average guy with similar education. The huge salaries are all taken dishonestly from poor consumers, some of which have to travel between work and family to get bread and love to their children.

Reuters: Ryanair's O'Leary would be interested in buying all of Air Berlin says:

"We would be very happy to bid for the whole of Air Berlin, which is generally a short-haul, domestic, intra-EU carrier," O'Leary said by telephone.

"But we don't know how much restructuring it will take, how much money is it losing, why is it losing so much money in a market where we make money," he said.
...
O'Leary told Reuters Ryanair needed information on Air Berlin's leases, employment contracts and terms with airports before it could determine how much restructuring it would need.

So the tennis ball is smacked back over the net....

Popcorn time!

I like Ryanairs offer. I guess he would never take over Air Berlin, but because he is interested to make an offer, they must look on it. If they just continue discussion behind the curtain and exclude Ryanair thats for sure another argument for a huge anti trust complain but also the administrators of Air Berlin would make themselves personal liable, because they did not consider all offers and therefore eventually damaged creditor assets. Seconly, time is running out and eventually Air Berlin will collapse even before a deal is done. This way the winner are all who can fill the slots immediately.

If FR bids for AB, what is it going to do with those DHC8's. As for the A330's is it time for him to start TATL. Then there are the A320's, whereas FR is solely B737's.

All sounds like hot air from MOL. Nothing new there.

leghorn wrote:

ua900 wrote:

What exactly was the German government supposed to do then? Let Ryanair take over on zero hour contracts, would that be better than AB salary cuts? Let U2 take over, would they retain the A330s or that many A320s/319s? Would either FR or U2 do anything to continue employing the headquarters staff at Saatwinkler Damm in Berlin?

If I had to rely on Lufthansa to get home regularly I'd only see family once or twice a year because their prices are unaffordable on any route on which they operate a monopoly/duopoly.
You seem to be pro-industry and not pro-consumer.
Ryanair and other LCCs are allowing people to fly across Europe at prices which can only be dreamed of in the rest of the world.

The consumer hasn't got lobbyists to whisper in the ear of Government or set the mood music in the media.
Today as I was driving to work I was hearing the competition authority speaking out saying that the politicians should remember whose interests they should be serving.

I don't see FR or the other LCCs going away any time soon. LH didn't start EW because of AB, but exactly because of FR, U2, and long haul because of DY and WW, not because of AB or say DE.

I rely on *A to get me home on a regular basis, and if their prices go up then Skyteam, Oneworld and all the others come in and start a price war. I see $416 TATL RT LAX-HAM on the legacies and slightly lower on the LLCs. In the US I see lots of $49 one way tickets, not as cheap as FR $19, but on average we also make more money here than in Europe. As a consumer I'm pro consumer first, but I don't see the industry lacking diversity or choice by AB's demise. In German speaking countries, you still have plenty of options, the trains and the buses for short haul, and LLCs for routes longer than 3-4 hours by train. If the current LH+AB market share on a given route is high and the route makes good money, you can bet that someone will step in.

LTU330 wrote:

ua900 wrote:

C010T3 wrote:

Voices are getting louder and rightfully so: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/p ... -1.3634846

What exactly was the German government supposed to do then? Let Ryanair take over on zero hour contracts, would that be better than AB salary cuts? Let U2 take over, would they retain the A330s or that many A320s/319s? Would either FR or U2 do anything to continue employing the headquarters staff at Saatwinkler Damm in Berlin?

LTU330 wrote:

It looks to me that this insolvency has been long in the planning. Probably since Mrs Merkel and Mr Spohr visited the UAE earlier this year. Lufthansa seem to have been offered first pickings of the Air Berlin carcass, otherwise why would the interest of Hans Rudolph Wöhrl (and his backers) to keep Air Berlin as going concern with all the staff not be looked at, as opposed to Lufthansa taking only Aircraft and Crews ? The Wöhrl scenario would also prevent a problem regarding monopolies. Like I say, it does not matter what people think of Air Berlin, something is not sitting right with how this insolvency is panning out.

The whole industry knew this day would come. LH Group prepared far better than others and made a commitment, notably through the wet leases. They talked to EY about buying AB outright and this would have been done months ago had it not been for EY's insistence that LH take on AB's billion euro debt.

Merkel and Spohr were in the UAE to negotiate an orderly sale of AB. If anyone had control over planning AB's insolvency it was EY, but in the wake of Mr. Hogan's departure they simply may not have been ready at the time to accept their loss of investment with AB. That changed drastically and abruptly now, but it's also a decision on the part of EY that neither LH nor the German government had planned.

Mr. Wöhrl could have used the past seven years to update the valuations on AB so that he has a precise offer for AB when the time is right. Moreover, if his offer is that great and it's suspected that the government backs LH in spite of not being the best option, then why not publish the amounts Mr. Wöhrl is offering to make it obvious to the voting public that his offer is better?

Slot reductions will equal fleet transfer reductions, which will equate to job losses.

The problem I have is that a Government person last week (I can not remember his name right now) actually said that Air Berlin has to be split up. It only "has" to be split up if that is what has been agreed already between LH and EY and the Government. To not even look at any other proposal clearly implies a collusion between those three groups and AB. Whatever people think, and I am one of them, regarding the absolutely ridiculous miss management of AB from the Mehdorn era onward, the people on the shop floor are actually very hard working and loyal, but are now getting (too late) tired of the constant stream of useless information from the Management team. With regard to being looked after, I calculate that I will be 1600 Euro minus per month when I go to the Arbeitsamt compared to my current monthly income, which is the average for my position in any Airline I have contacts at, and actually a lot less than at British Airways where I previously worked. Still, maybe we get offered positions in any new MRO called Eurowing/Easyjet/Condor/Ryanair Europe and then maybe I am only 1400 Euro worse off but working 40 hours instead of zero hours I need to dust off my 777 course notes and say hello to Fedex.

Sorry to hear that, I would consider FX if needed, but you're right that MRO staff is likely to stay as EW MRO. While it's not ideal, it's been coming for a while now and is certainly better than what's going to happen to the office staff at Saatwinkler Damm. AB was a good airline that took on too much debt as the result of a management team that was out of touch with reality, especially Mr. Hunold. Slow and organic growth combined with professional top management a la DE would have been better. The statement from the German government was likely made this way because it's taken as inevitable that LH will play a major role but won't be allowed to take over everything. If Mr. Woehrl has a better offer to make he can have everything, but then he should lay the cards on the table and start naming his terms. He can't stem the price apparently, and AB likely won't get sold to him for $1 like Deutsche BA.

Revelation wrote:

Reuters: Ryanair's O'Leary would be interested in buying all of Air Berlin says:

"We would be very happy to bid for the whole of Air Berlin, which is generally a short-haul, domestic, intra-EU carrier," O'Leary said by telephone.

"But we don't know how much restructuring it will take, how much money is it losing, why is it losing so much money in a market where we make money," he said.
...
O'Leary told Reuters Ryanair needed information on Air Berlin's leases, employment contracts and terms with airports before it could determine how much restructuring it would need.

So the tennis ball is smacked back over the net....

Popcorn time!

Well played. Now the authorities should stop any proceedings granting parts of AB to LH.

ua900 wrote:

I don't see FR or the other LCCs going away any time soon. LH didn't start EW because of AB, but exactly because of FR, U2, and long haul because of DY and WW, not because of AB or say DE.

I rely on *A to get me home on a regular basis, and if their prices go up then Skyteam, Oneworld and all the others come in and start a price war. I see $416 TATL RT LAX-HAM on the legacies and slightly lower on the LLCs. In the US I see lots of $49 one way tickets, not as cheap as FR $19, but on average we also make more money here than in Europe. As a consumer I'm pro consumer first, but I don't see the industry lacking diversity or choice by AB's demise. In German speaking countries, you still have plenty of options, the trains and the buses for short haul, and LLCs for routes longer than 3-4 hours by train. If the current LH+AB market share on a given route is high and the route makes good money, you can bet that someone will step in.

Maybe that is your impression. If you look at the facts (posted earlier in this topic), almost all German domestic air routes could be left with an LH Group monopoly with the demise of Air Berlin. That is in no one's interest even with some competition from trains and long distance buses.

I rely on *A to get me home on a regular basis, and if their prices go up then Skyteam, Oneworld and all the others come in and start a price war.

You are still not getting it...
1) This is not about TATL, on which an AB takeover will have little impact.
2) There is no such thing as a price war on TATL anyway, since it is an oligopoly controlled by 3 entitities (D8's influence is not yet strong enough to have an impact)

If the current LH+AB market share on a given route is high and the route makes good money, you can bet that someone will step in.

For the 7th time: this can only happen if there are free slots that can be taken by a new entrant! Which is not the case if LH acquires AB's slots at MUC, DUS, TXL...

In German speaking countries, you still have plenty of options

Throughout the entire thread, I have been posting data that shows that an AB takeover would result in a LH monoply in German-speaking Europe. I have shown why the train is not a valid alternative on 9 of AB's 10 most successful routes. And busses....seriously??

If FR bids for AB, what is it going to do with those DHC8's.

The same question applies to everyone else, since nobody wants to take them. Having said that, I agree about the hot air, a full takeover doesn't make sense for FR. But some smaller pieces could. FR did enter conversations with MUC airport about a base, but pulled out due to lack of slots. Getting AB's juicy peak-hour slots there could change the equation.

It seems like the plan never saw LH taking all slots. German media says 50% of the slots at (DUS) could go to Easy with Condor also taking a smaller percentage. Easy would be in a position to start intra-German routes, Condor would grow on the holiday routes. LH/EW would mostly get routes they do not currently serve (mostly the niki holiday routes) and the long haul ops. (which they also do not serve at the moment) In addition maybe some selected routes like DUS-STR where AB had a practical monopoly.

In all fairness and although I am no fan of LH, the management will never have been so deluded to believe that they can get all the slots and avoid any competition.

Polot wrote:

LTU330 wrote:

Well I'm no Shop Steward and I was from a Military life before joining the Civilian world of Aviation and detest Unions, but there is no scaremongering in what I say. Even Spohr says he will welcome a lot of Air Berlin staff but not in their contracts. That means less money, full stop. Now I can go to the Arbeitsamt and sit and do nothing and be paid around 1600 Euro per month less than I get now, or I can go to the "new" company whatever it will be called, and work 40 hours per week and get still more than 1000 Euro less per month, so in effect working 40 hours a week for effectively 150 euro per week when related to what I get to just do nothing, neither of which options pays my house and expenses anyway. Then, how do you now class value for money ? Is the value for money in your world not simply the cheapest option irrespective of how they manage it ?

I'm sorry but they are currently working for a failing company. If you think all the employees are going to come out of this with equal or greater pay and benefits than current you are living in a dreamworld. Nobody is going to take the employees with the same contracts (there is a reason "Eurowings" is constantly mentioned in the same breath as LH taking over AB). If the pay the employees where receiving was actually sustainable based on the revenue coming in then Air Berlin would not be the verge of collapse and we would not be having this discussion in the first place.

According to Herr Pichler who was the CEO before the Lufthansa guy here now, Air Berlin had a lower Staff cost base than Eurowings. Air Berlin are not in this position because of what they pay the staff, it is because of the stupid things like TUI contract and higher than normal leasing costs. If it was down to wages Air Berlin could simply tell all staff they need to take a pay cut to keep the Airline flying.

YIMBY wrote:

LTU330 wrote:

From the Ryanair website: Cabin Crew. Pay after tax 1200 to 1500 euro. It could be less than 1000 euro depending on standby or if you are sick. Training takes six weeks and you pay it yourself (around 2000 euro). It sounds like a fantastic company to work for, I should have applied when they started years ago. Now, try living on that if you live in any place in Germany. Glad I am not Cabin Crew, although I am getting pretty tired of this industry now.

I have earned less than that for most of my working life, and survived well, could even raise family (my spouse's average salary is also in the same ballpark). And we both have studied years to get higher academic degrees.

I feel absolutely zero sympathy for those who try to play martyrs when getting such salaries - or even worse, high paid persons getting a little less high salary. There are words for people like that but I do not want to mention them.

IMO, all the salaries of the aviation professionals could be halved overnight. They would still earn much more than an average guy with similar education. The huge salaries are all taken dishonestly from poor consumers, some of which have to travel between work and family to get bread and love to their children.

No one want's your sympathy really. What they want is to have a living wage. Tell me a little about yourself if you don't mind, like which City do you live in that allows you to live on less than 1200 Euro per month without an assisted housing system, and what is your degree that only gives you such a wage ? I have friends here in Germany with Engineering Degrees, and they are earning way more than I am. People live to their means. It's great that you can live comfortably on your wage. Now, as your boss, I tell you that I quit the Company and a new one will offer you a job but on less money. I doubt you will be so happy with that as maybe you will not survive as well then. This scenario is what everyone at AB looks at now. Sympathy required ? No. Staff are Martrys ? No. Little less salary ? Around a 30% cut is a little less ? Not in most peoples worlds. Maybe if you take home 10,000 Euro a month like a Captain, but not if that pay cut is more than you pay for your house every month.

You would be surprised at what some captains at Ryanair are earning (that's 3-6 years away for most Air Berlin crew). Combined with a very stable roster (5 on, 4 off), home with the family every night, and a modern and well maintained fleet, it's not such a bad deal. The main difficult factor is the need to move base when gaining command.

r2rho wrote:

If the current LH+AB market share on a given route is high and the route makes good money, you can bet that someone will step in.

For the 7th time: this can only happen if there are free slots that can be taken by a new entrant! Which is not the case if LH acquires AB's slots at MUC, DUS, TXL...

In German speaking countries, you still have plenty of options

Throughout the entire thread, I have been posting data that shows that an AB takeover would result in a LH monoply in German-speaking Europe. I have shown why the train is not a valid alternative on 9 of AB's 10 most successful routes. And busses....seriously??

If FR bids for AB, what is it going to do with those DHC8's.

The same question applies to everyone else, since nobody wants to take them. Having said that, I agree about the hot air, a full takeover doesn't make sense for FR. But some smaller pieces could. FR did enter conversations with MUC airport about a base, but pulled out due to lack of slots. Getting AB's juicy peak-hour slots there could change the equation.

Regarding slots, there is not a single major airport in germany without slot control and very few remaining slots in peak hours. You are correct that any competitor would have a hard time on its own.
Competition wise, the newspapers said that a full merger of AB & LH (group) will result in a 92% market share of the combined entity within Germany. That is significant.

LTenEleven wrote:

You would be surprised at what some captains at Ryanair are earning (that's 3-6 years away for most Air Berlin crew). Combined with a very stable roster (5 on, 4 off), home with the family every night, and a modern and well maintained fleet, it's not such a bad deal. The main difficult factor is the need to move base when gaining command.

Which shows it is not staff costs that doomed Air Berlin, and that they are not overpaid.

mxaxai wrote:

Competition wise, the newspapers said that a full merger of AB & LH (group) will result in a 92% market share of the combined entity within Germany. That is significant.

Nevertheless, I believe that the transaction should be analyzed from a slot standpoint only.
Domestic flying in Germany is not the most attractive market, which is why Pan-European carriers have a small presence in comparison to International.

And the creditors circle decided to not hand over AB to LH nor to divide it up and sell it to LH and Easy. They decided to wait and take the time to consider the offers of other interested parties.

Does anyone have any insight on where AB's aircraft will end up? Are there talks of one-off transaction in the works or will they go through the normal bankruptcy proceedings in Germany? I understand they have a handful of A320s that are leased.

All aircraft operated by them are leased.

And now Germania has also expressed interest in taking over routes.

http://www.aerotelegraph.com/germania-w ... in-beerben (sorry only in German)