ADrum23
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The Future of ORD

Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:54 pm

I'd like to get a serious discussion going about the future of ORD. O'Hare is lagging behind other major airports in services and the terminals are becoming tired and dated. There is a gate shortage and reducing the number of delays has not improved significantly. I have seen no progress on the new proposed Terminal 2 or the proposed expansion of Terminal 5. Chicago desperately needs to get going on rebuilding/expanding and improving the terminals. I have a few questions to get the discussion started.

1. Do you like the proposed Terminal 2 rebuild? Is that and expanding Terminal 5 enough to fix the gate shortage?

2. Whatever happened to the Western Terminal? Do you think it will ever be built?

3. Any progress on a new lease between United/American and ORD?

4. Will we see new western access into the airport (even if it is just a parking garage with a shuttle to the terminals) once IL-390 (the Elgin-O'Hare Expressway) is finished?
 
jayunited
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Re: The Future of ORD

Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:50 pm

Here is a really great article that addresses most of your questions.
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/ ... -for-ohare

In short the city is still in negotiations with the airlines they expect negotiations to wrap up by the end of the year.
1. The current 30 year lease agreement United and American have expires May 2018.
2. Both airlines what to increase the overall number of gates but want the city to keep a lid on landing fees.
3. Both American and United want the city keep a firm handle on the overall cost of the expansion program.
4. The city will drop the proposed western terminal because both American and United objected to paying for a terminal neither of them would be allowed to use.
5. The city in return whats both American and United to give up their "VETO POWER" over airport capitol spending.

There are plenty of other articles out there on this subject and it does seem like progress is being made we will just have to wait till these negotiations end and an agreement is announced to see what the future of ORD will be.
 
ADrum23
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Re: The Future of ORD

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:25 pm

I can't believe they are dropping the western terminal. While I agree the existing terminals first and foremost need rebuilding/expansion (I really like the proposed Terminal 2 rebuild into a "central terminal" with new customs facilities), I still think a small western terminal would be nice for LCC's.
 
jbs2886
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Re: The Future of ORD

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:34 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
I still think a small western terminal would be nice for LCC's.


Which is exactly why AA and UA don't want to pay for it.
 
ADrum23
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Re: The Future of ORD

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:39 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
I still think a small western terminal would be nice for LCC's.


Which is exactly why AA and UA don't want to pay for it.


Who says they have to pay for it? Doesn't the money for these projects come from fees collected from all the airlines that use the airport?

And worse case, if the city had to make a concession to allow AA/UA to use a few of the gates at the western terminal so they'd pay for it (but the majority would still be common use gates), that wouldn't be too bad.
 
jbs2886
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Re: The Future of ORD

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:43 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
I still think a small western terminal would be nice for LCC's.


Which is exactly why AA and UA don't want to pay for it.


Who says they have to pay for it? Doesn't the money for these projects come from fees collected from all the airlines that use the airport?

And worse case, if the city had to make a concession to allow AA/UA to use a few of the gates at the western terminal so they'd pay for it (but the majority would still be common use gates), that wouldn't be too bad.


And AA/UA are the vast majority of those fees....thus, they are paying for their own competition.
 
jayunited
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Re: The Future of ORD

Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:44 pm

[quote="ADrum23"
Who says they have to pay for it? Doesn't the money for these projects come from fees collected from all the airlines that use the airport?

And worse case, if the city had to make a concession to allow AA/UA to use a few of the gates at the western terminal so they'd pay for it (but the majority would still be common use gates), that wouldn't be too bad.[/quote]

I think you are missing the point here. After reading the article both the city and AA/UA are on the same page that ORD needs to modernize. Both American and United are the anchor tenants their main concern is controlling cost, making sure this project doesn't get out of control financially causing landing fees to rise exponentially which could perhaps cause some LCC's to leave ORD. By axing the western terminal they have potentially cut $1 - $2 billion dollars from the project, because according to the article that is what it could cost to build a terminal. The city is fairly certain that neither AA or UA is going to abandon ORD any time soon I'm not so sure the city has the same confidence in the LCC's that you say should be allowed to use the western terminal. As far as I know DL has not stepped up to the plate and offered to help pay for a western terminal so if some of these LCC's go belly up or abandon ORD both AA and UA would have to step up and pay for this unnecessary terminal. From a business a financial perspective both AA and UA are doing the right thing by demanding the western terminal be dropped. It's not about blocking competition because their will be increased competition at ORD once the the main terminals are done. Axing the western terminal is about controlling cost and I think the city finally gets this point which is why if the article is correct the city has finally given up on the western terminal.
 
ADrum23
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Re: The Future of ORD

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:02 pm

jayunited wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Who says they have to pay for it? Doesn't the money for these projects come from fees collected from all the airlines that use the airport?

And worse case, if the city had to make a concession to allow AA/UA to use a few of the gates at the western terminal so they'd pay for it (but the majority would still be common use gates), that wouldn't be too bad.


I think you are missing the point here. After reading the article both the city and AA/UA are on the same page that ORD needs to modernize. Both American and United are the anchor tenants their main concern is controlling cost, making sure this project doesn't get out of control financially causing landing fees to rise exponentially which could perhaps cause some LCC's to leave ORD. By axing the western terminal they have potentially cut $1 - $2 billion dollars from the project, because according to the article that is what it could cost to build a terminal. The city is fairly certain that neither AA or UA is going to abandon ORD any time soon I'm not so sure the city has the same confidence in the LCC's that you say should be allowed to use the western terminal. As far as I know DL has not stepped up to the plate and offered to help pay for a western terminal so if some of these LCC's go belly up or abandon ORD both AA and UA would have to step up and pay for this unnecessary terminal. From a business a financial perspective both AA and UA are doing the right thing by demanding the western terminal be dropped. It's not about blocking competition because their will be increased competition at ORD once the the main terminals are done. Axing the western terminal is about controlling cost and I think the city finally gets this point which is why if the article is correct the city has finally given up on the western terminal.


My concern is the new Terminal 2 rebuild (which I am very much in support of) is not going to create enough common use gates, because UA/AA will gobble up the space (they both stated they want more capacity). That is why I still think some sort of western terminal is needed, to ensure there is enough gates for LCC's. I hope I'm wrong.

Even if there is no western terminal, they still need to create western access from the new IL-390 tollway. I think some sort of Transportation Center with connections to the terminals would be nice here.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: The Future of ORD

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:16 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Who says they have to pay for it? Doesn't the money for these projects come from fees collected from all the airlines that use the airport?

And worse case, if the city had to make a concession to allow AA/UA to use a few of the gates at the western terminal so they'd pay for it (but the majority would still be common use gates), that wouldn't be too bad.


I think you are missing the point here. After reading the article both the city and AA/UA are on the same page that ORD needs to modernize. Both American and United are the anchor tenants their main concern is controlling cost, making sure this project doesn't get out of control financially causing landing fees to rise exponentially which could perhaps cause some LCC's to leave ORD. By axing the western terminal they have potentially cut $1 - $2 billion dollars from the project, because according to the article that is what it could cost to build a terminal. The city is fairly certain that neither AA or UA is going to abandon ORD any time soon I'm not so sure the city has the same confidence in the LCC's that you say should be allowed to use the western terminal. As far as I know DL has not stepped up to the plate and offered to help pay for a western terminal so if some of these LCC's go belly up or abandon ORD both AA and UA would have to step up and pay for this unnecessary terminal. From a business a financial perspective both AA and UA are doing the right thing by demanding the western terminal be dropped. It's not about blocking competition because their will be increased competition at ORD once the the main terminals are done. Axing the western terminal is about controlling cost and I think the city finally gets this point which is why if the article is correct the city has finally given up on the western terminal.


My concern is the new Terminal 2 rebuild (which I am very much in support of) is not going to create enough common use gates, because UA/AA will gobble up the space (they both stated they want more capacity). That is why I still think some sort of western terminal is needed, to ensure there is enough gates for LCC's. I hope I'm wrong.

Even if there is no western terminal, they still need to create western access from the new IL-390 tollway. I think some sort of Transportation Center with connections to the terminals would be nice here.


If Terminal 6 happens, they may not need a western terminal. That would also solve the problem of the split DL operation.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ADrum23
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Re: The Future of ORD

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:18 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
jayunited wrote:

I think you are missing the point here. After reading the article both the city and AA/UA are on the same page that ORD needs to modernize. Both American and United are the anchor tenants their main concern is controlling cost, making sure this project doesn't get out of control financially causing landing fees to rise exponentially which could perhaps cause some LCC's to leave ORD. By axing the western terminal they have potentially cut $1 - $2 billion dollars from the project, because according to the article that is what it could cost to build a terminal. The city is fairly certain that neither AA or UA is going to abandon ORD any time soon I'm not so sure the city has the same confidence in the LCC's that you say should be allowed to use the western terminal. As far as I know DL has not stepped up to the plate and offered to help pay for a western terminal so if some of these LCC's go belly up or abandon ORD both AA and UA would have to step up and pay for this unnecessary terminal. From a business a financial perspective both AA and UA are doing the right thing by demanding the western terminal be dropped. It's not about blocking competition because their will be increased competition at ORD once the the main terminals are done. Axing the western terminal is about controlling cost and I think the city finally gets this point which is why if the article is correct the city has finally given up on the western terminal.


My concern is the new Terminal 2 rebuild (which I am very much in support of) is not going to create enough common use gates, because UA/AA will gobble up the space (they both stated they want more capacity). That is why I still think some sort of western terminal is needed, to ensure there is enough gates for LCC's. I hope I'm wrong.

Even if there is no western terminal, they still need to create western access from the new IL-390 tollway. I think some sort of Transportation Center with connections to the terminals would be nice here.


If Terminal 6 happens, they may not need a western terminal. That would also solve the problem of the split DL operation.


Terminal 6? What is that?
 
Cubsrule
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Re: The Future of ORD

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:23 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

My concern is the new Terminal 2 rebuild (which I am very much in support of) is not going to create enough common use gates, because UA/AA will gobble up the space (they both stated they want more capacity). That is why I still think some sort of western terminal is needed, to ensure there is enough gates for LCC's. I hope I'm wrong.

Even if there is no western terminal, they still need to create western access from the new IL-390 tollway. I think some sort of Transportation Center with connections to the terminals would be nice here.


If Terminal 6 happens, they may not need a western terminal. That would also solve the problem of the split DL operation.


Terminal 6? What is that?


The Daley terminal modernization plan from the early 00s called for roughly a mirror image of Terminal 5 immediately east of and connected to Terminal 5. The idea was that Terminal 2 would get FIS, AA/Oneworld would get F and UA/Star would get E. CO and NW used most of the "leg" of E at that time and US had high F gates.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ADrum23
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Re: The Future of ORD

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:27 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

If Terminal 6 happens, they may not need a western terminal. That would also solve the problem of the split DL operation.


Terminal 6? What is that?


The Daley terminal modernization plan from the early 00s called for roughly a mirror image of Terminal 5 immediately east of and connected to Terminal 5. The idea was that Terminal 2 would get FIS, AA/Oneworld would get F and UA/Star would get E. CO and NW used most of the "leg" of E at that time and US had high F gates.


I don't think that is in the cards anymore. The latest plans only call for 9 new gates to be added to Terminal 5.
 
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kngkyle
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Re: The Future of ORD

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:40 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

Terminal 6? What is that?


The Daley terminal modernization plan from the early 00s called for roughly a mirror image of Terminal 5 immediately east of and connected to Terminal 5. The idea was that Terminal 2 would get FIS, AA/Oneworld would get F and UA/Star would get E. CO and NW used most of the "leg" of E at that time and US had high F gates.


I don't think that is in the cards anymore. The latest plans only call for 9 new gates to be added to Terminal 5.


All of which will be common use gates that LCC carriers can use.

The Western terminal was always a bad idea and only came about to get the support of the western suburbs for the modernization project. Modernizing the existing complex is much more feasible and cost effective. There should be announcement before the end of the year on the actual expansion/re-development plan for Terminal 2. What we saw earlier this year were just concepts the city was proposing to UA/AA. The actual plan could be wildly different.

Both the 9-gate expansion to T5 and the 5-gate expansion to T3 are currently under construction.
 
ADrum23
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Re: The Future of ORD

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:48 pm

kngkyle wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

The Daley terminal modernization plan from the early 00s called for roughly a mirror image of Terminal 5 immediately east of and connected to Terminal 5. The idea was that Terminal 2 would get FIS, AA/Oneworld would get F and UA/Star would get E. CO and NW used most of the "leg" of E at that time and US had high F gates.


I don't think that is in the cards anymore. The latest plans only call for 9 new gates to be added to Terminal 5.


All of which will be common use gates that LCC carriers can use.

The Western terminal was always a bad idea and only came about to get the support of the western suburbs for the modernization project. Modernizing the existing complex is much more feasible and cost effective. There should be announcement before the end of the year on the actual expansion/re-development plan for Terminal 2. What we saw earlier this year were just concepts the city was proposing to UA/AA. The actual plan could be wildly different.

Both the 9-gate expansion to T5 and the 5-gate expansion to T3 are currently under construction.


Would LCC's like Frontier, Spirit, etc, use the 9 new gates in International Terminal 5, or is ORD backing away from that (i.e, that Terminal 5 is a strictly international terminal).

Good point about the Western Terminal, but I still think they need to accommodate some sort of access road from the new IL-390 tollway, as well as some efficient way to get to the terminals from there (CTA or ATS extension?)

And are you sure the Terminal 5 expansion is under construction? I haven't heard anything recently regarding that, not even a groundbreaking ceremony or anything.
 
MLIAA
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Re: The Future of ORD

Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:12 pm

Why is ORD so stingy about who goes into T5? DFW, ATL, LAX, PHL and many other airports allow all pax into "international" terminals, and no harm comes from it. ORD has the shuttle, why not allow people to flow freely to T5, to catch their flights, in addition to being able to go back to T1/2/3 inside security?

Further, PHL keeps Spirit at terminal A, the international terminal. Would ORD be able to move B6, NK, and F9 to T5? (Assuming VX follows AS and uses AA facilities in T3)
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toltommy
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Re: The Future of ORD

Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:10 am

MLIAA wrote:
Further, PHL keeps Spirit at terminal A, the international terminal.


Nope, NK moved to Terminal E at PHL about 6 weeks ago.
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Cubsrule
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Re: The Future of ORD

Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:18 am

ADrum23 wrote:
kngkyle wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Would LCC's like Frontier, Spirit, etc, use the 9 new gates in International Terminal 5, or is ORD backing away from that (i.e, that Terminal 5 is a strictly international terminal).


Terminal 5 has had domestic LFCs more or less continuously since it opened. I think U5 used Terminal 5 for its entire existence, for instance.
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ILS28ORD
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Re: The Future of ORD

Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:10 am

Usa3000 used T5 for all of their flights, domestic and international. All other LCC have always used T3.

Why not build a post security underground walkway from T5 to T3 like united has in T1 or run a continuous shuttle in both directions like UA does from concourse E to/from B/C instead of the one way shuttle AA now runs?
 
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United787
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Re: The Future of ORD

Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:53 pm

I don't believe T5 is under construction yet, I thought it is still pending.

The expansion to T3L is under construction and can be seen from I-190... but I can't remember if we saw any drawings... we may not know what it looks like until it is completed :(
 
NichCage
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Re: The Future of ORD

Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:38 pm

Can ORD handle the A380 yet?
 
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787fan8
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Re: The Future of ORD

Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:42 pm

NichCage wrote:
Can ORD handle the A380 yet?

British Airways is bringing the A380 to ORD starting in May of 2018
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ADrum23
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Re: The Future of ORD

Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:54 pm

I just hope they announce something soon as far as plan to rebuild ORD.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: The Future of ORD

Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:09 pm

Looks to me like the "revised (?)" T2 rebuild would benefit UA and DL with T3 staying much the same. I can't see AA signing on to that.
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ADrum23
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Re: The Future of ORD

Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:29 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
Looks to me like the "revised (?)" T2 rebuild would benefit UA and DL with T3 staying much the same. I can't see AA signing on to that.


That was just a concept. The negotiations are currently underway, and will likely include a vast overhaul that will benefit both UA and AA, while also increasing competition and utilizing the new western access that will be provided by the new Elgin-O'Hare Western Access roadway (IL-390/I-490). I hope something is announced soon.

Whatever happens, please keep DL from expanding too much.
 
_AA_777_MAN
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Re: The Future of ORD

Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:55 pm

787fan8 wrote:
NichCage wrote:
Can ORD handle the A380 yet?

British Airways is bringing the A380 to ORD starting in May of 2018



Yes it can. EK flew a one off, and BA will introduce it on one of it 2x daily flights in May of 2018 as stated above. Other flight will be a 744.
the A380 first landed in ORD in 2007 only issue has been no gates capable of handling such aircraft. Now there are 2 A380 gates at T5. AFAIK no other terminal is capable of handling the A380 hence why LH sends a 2x daily 748i since they depart from T1.
 
glbltrvlr
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Re: The Future of ORD

Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:57 pm

ILS28ORD wrote:
run a continuous shuttle in both directions like UA does from concourse E to/from B/C instead of the one way shuttle AA now runs?


The UA shuttle is a joke. There's always a long line on both ends, the vehicle is not large enough to accommodate the line and they only run it every 15 minutes. I walk it faster every time I need it.
 
_AA_777_MAN
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Re: The Future of ORD

Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:59 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
I'd like to get a serious discussion going about the future of ORD. O'Hare is lagging behind other major airports in services


How is ORD lagging behind other major airports in services? It might not be JFK or LAX but it still has a lot of diverse carriers. The terminals I do agree need to be updated as well as addition of gates.
 
CHI2DFW
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Re: The Future of ORD

Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:04 am

ORD gate leases are up next year, expect movement on the rebuilt / new terminal / new gates.

DL is not going to make ORD a focus city (sure it's s big O&D market, but between DTW & MSP, as well as major hubs for UA, AA, and WN at MDW). It will be a very large spoke with future flights to BOS, LAX, and possibly RDU.

UA and AA want more gates, but they don't want to pay for gates that will go to F9 or NK (I agree with that; if the ULCCs want to expand at ORD, build your own gates, or move to MKE, RFD, DTW, etc.)-Anetters will be thrilled with that!
 
ADrum23
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Re: The Future of ORD

Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:11 am

_AA_777_MAN wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
I'd like to get a serious discussion going about the future of ORD. O'Hare is lagging behind other major airports in services


How is ORD lagging behind other major airports in services? It might not be JFK or LAX but it still has a lot of diverse carriers. The terminals I do agree need to be updated as well as addition of gates.


I meant terminal services (such as restaurants, shops, bathrooms, gates, etc). They are very dated and need of a major upgrade. Plus, some areas (like Terminal 2) lack them entirely in some areas. I agree that ORD has done a much better job at diversifying its carriers as opposed to other airports of its size (outside of LAX and JFK) with major hubs (such as ATL, DFW, DTW, MSP, etc, those airports could learn a thing or two about diversifying their airline carriers).

ORD is a outdated airport (both the layout and aesthetically) that is way overdue for a major terminal overhaul. It has a lot of potential (especially with the new western access that IL-390/I-490 will provide), but the City of Chicago needs to get off their behinds and get something going. If we are not seeing a groundbreaking on a major terminal rebuild/expansion by 2020, there is a major problem.
 
ADrum23
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Re: The Future of ORD

Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:14 am

CHI2DFW wrote:
ORD gate leases are up next year, expect movement on the rebuilt / new terminal / new gates.

DL is not going to make ORD a focus city (sure it's s big O&D market, but between DTW & MSP, as well as major hubs for UA, AA, and WN at MDW). It will be a very large spoke with future flights to BOS, LAX, and possibly RDU.

UA and AA want more gates, but they don't want to pay for gates that will go to F9 or NK (I agree with that; if the ULCCs want to expand at ORD, build your own gates, or move to MKE, RFD, DTW, etc.)-Anetters will be thrilled with that!


While the majority of gates will go to UA and AA, it is not unreasonable to add some common use gates as part of the airport expansion.
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: The Future of ORD

Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:49 am

Why not start from scratch on the West side. It can be built without major impacts and demolish the old terminals after everyone moves. Never Happen. Too much infrastructure in-place that cannot be easily replicated. The only expansion that makes sense is to follow the inter-terminal tramway.
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