dubaiamman243
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UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:09 am

UAE and Canada held air transport talks yesterday as UAE ambassador to Canada was in discussions with the Canadian department of foreign affairs, trade and development.

The introductory meeting marked the new designation of the Canadian official as the new High Commissioner of Air Transport Affairs at the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development.

source: emirates247.com

Could we see some amendments in the bilateral agreement btw both companies countries?
Although it may be a long way to go, but it's important for both countries.
 
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SQ22
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:13 am

Can you please provide not only your source, but also a link to the source?
 
dubaiamman243
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:21 am

 
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scbriml
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:44 pm

I doubt we'll see much progress as long as the Canadian authorities put Air Canada ahead of giving the Canadian people more choice and competition.
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longhauler
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:59 pm

scbriml wrote:
I doubt we'll see much progress as long as the Canadian authorities put Air Canada ahead of giving the Canadian people more choice and competition.

I always chuckle when people say this ... as the Canadian government very rarely puts Air Canada ahead of anything. Even recently, when the Air Canada Public Participation Act was reviewed, it was deemed that this must stand. For those that don't know, the ACPPA is the set of rules, devised more than 25 years ago, that AC must follow ... that no other airline in or to Canada must follow.

The biliateral between Canada and the UAE is very cut and dry. If O&D traffic warrants expansion, then either country can apply for further access. That is why (for example) China has full access to Canada, much to the disadvantage of Air Canada. And if the Canadian government truly were looking out for Air Canada, then the reason for restricted access to China might be questioned when to date 9 Chinese airlines are flying to Canada. (While Air Canada's request for more access was denied).

I am glad to see this is being reviewed, as it would indicate that the market is maturing and expanding. The very intent of why Canada's bilaterals are written the way they are.
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:34 pm

Yes lots of talk but I doubt anything will actually change. Especially now that AC has expanded aggressively into EK home turf (DEL and Australia from YVR).
AC could very easily stall the talks by threatening to wipe out its c series order.
The current bilateral requirement of O&D is outdated for this day and age. For instance, imagine if it applied to other carriers like KLM that flies to YYC and YEG, where O&D to AMS is virtually zero.
 
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:13 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
Yes lots of talk but I doubt anything will actually change. Especially now that AC has expanded aggressively into EK home turf (DEL and Australia from YVR).
AC could very easily stall the talks by threatening to wipe out its c series order.
The current bilateral requirement of O&D is outdated for this day and age. For instance, imagine if it applied to other carriers like KLM that flies to YYC and YEG, where O&D to AMS is virtually zero.


Australia and India are EK's "Home Turf" now?
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
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SQ22
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:41 pm

dubaiamman243 wrote:
http://www.emirates247.com/business/uae-canada-advancing-air-transport-collaboration-2017-08-11-1.657423


Thanks
 
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scbriml
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:23 pm

longhauler wrote:
The biliateral between Canada and the UAE is very cut and dry. If O&D traffic warrants expansion


That's very much the tail wagging the dog.

Do you not think that the fare-paying customers would benefit from open skies between Canada and UAE? That's who it's supposed to be about.
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VCEflyboy
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:26 pm

Do you know how much traffic the ME3 move to/from Australia and India? Without access to these two markets the ME3 wouldn't be even close to where they are today.
Australia and India are the ME3's bread and butter.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:58 pm

longhauler wrote:
The biliateral between Canada and the UAE is very cut and dry. If O&D traffic warrants expansion

Gonna say that Canada may well have chosen the wisest path. The one that I'd bet Australia wishes it'd chosen, back in the day.


scbriml wrote:
That's very much the tail wagging the dog.
Do you not think that the fare-paying customers would benefit from open skies between Canada and UAE? That's who it's supposed to be about.

It's not as clear-cut as you're assuming it to be.... but no need to take anyone's word for it:
if you're so confident in the theory that this is a net cost benefit to ALL pax in/out/through Canada, then show us the math that proves it.

Make sure you include the impact on the domestic market, which relies on the health of Canadian carriers, at the relative percentages used by the aggregate number of travelers vis-a-vis those that would even utilize the UAE2's service.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:03 pm

scbriml wrote:
longhauler wrote:
The biliateral between Canada and the UAE is very cut and dry. If O&D traffic warrants expansion


That's very much the tail wagging the dog.

Do you not think that the fare-paying customers would benefit from open skies between Canada and UAE? That's who it's supposed to be about.


I underlined the important point. Do you think there is enough traffic between Canada and the UAE?
I don' think so.
 
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:12 pm

scbriml wrote:
I doubt we'll see much progress as long as the Canadian authorities put Air Canada ahead of giving the Canadian people more choice and competition.

Where did you ever get that idea? This is simply not true and I'd really like to see you try to back that up. The CBC, a crown corporation, can do nothing but bash Air Canada when they are having a slow news day. If anything the rule says in place are there to protect jobs all around which in turn helps keep the economy going rather than the money getting alk funnelled out to the Middle East.
VCEflyboy wrote:
AC could very easily stall the talks by threatening to wipe out its c series order.

And their bluff would be called. Not only would it be a huge waste of money, but they need the planes and they have put on quite a display of excitement over getting them contrast to the 737 MAX which has been surprisingly quiet. It wouldn't make any sense at any rate to cancel those.
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yycdel
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:19 pm

Canada has open skies with several countries that don't have ANY service to Canada at all, so the argument that agreements are based on o/d traffic is wrong.

Limiting access to ME3 is a very conscious decision based on protectionist policies, which apply to many other industries in Canada as well.
 
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:48 pm

scbriml wrote:
I doubt we'll see much progress as long as the Canadian authorities put Air Canada ahead of giving the Canadian people more choice and competition.


First, I'd like for him to cite the case... anyone who still thinks AC has ties with the Canadian Govt. is just proving they're stuck in the past and they haven't enlighten themselves to reality here and now. It reminds me of a guy who accused the Canadian government on deciding what live AC gets, depending on which political party is in power at the time!

longhauler wrote:
I always chuckle when people say this ... as the Canadian government very rarely puts Air Canada ahead of anything.


Used to chuckle too but I'm actually so tired of it and here I am with an a.net account to respond... When you have the CBC (Crown property) seeming like they're on a crusade to report negative stuff about AC (yes they've had negative events happen, but no need for CBC to cherry pick constantly) while constantly praising the competition while they have warts of their own, it really destroys any credibility that the govt. plays favours to AC but I guess us Canadians don't know any better.
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:07 pm

This could be related to an increase in Emirates flights. I can't remember the source but I remember reading somewhere that Emirates wants to fly DXB-YUL
 
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:33 pm

yycdel wrote:
Canada has open skies with several countries that don't have ANY service to Canada at all, so the argument that agreements are based on o/d traffic is wrong.

What you said makes no sense.

Just because an airline has chosen not to institute a nonstop, doesn't mean that there's not sizeable O&D.
It just tells you that the no one expects the yield to exceed the operational and/or opportunity cost.

Just as random examples:
There's a huge amount of O&D between USA and Thailand, Armenia, Hungary, etc... but no one's going to fly those routes, as yield would be in the toilet.

Doesn't mean the O&D couldn't be measured and any contingent requirements that might've existed be extrapolated from that data.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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worldranger
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:53 pm

The market adjusts to reality - while its working well now for AC, Westjet and EK could eventually launch a coordinated service of WS 787s from YVR and other points etc and feed into EKs system.

The Canadian diaspora deserves one stop service to all points in IN,PAK,BD. The Star Allinace solution with AC through LH etc is not efficient for the consumer. AC's connection to Air India via the YYZ-DXB direct flight does not address the Vancouver, Calgary, Montreal consumer.

Let the market dictate. It's not about Air Canada its about the consumer
 
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:33 pm

worldranger wrote:
the Vancouver, Calgary, Montreal consumer

Those and more Canadian cities have 1-stop acces to at least 4 Indian cities even when not using the Star alliance.
 
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:39 pm

Jetty wrote:
worldranger wrote:
the Vancouver, Calgary, Montreal consumer

Those and more Canadian cities have 1-stop acces to at least 4 Indian cities even when not using the Star alliance.


And as mentioned all points from IN,PAK,BD should have one stop service to the major Canadian metro areas. This can be a achieved by allowing EK to serve those cities at least once a day.

Denying everything outside the four Indian cities that you mention is denying the consumer in favor of one airline.
 
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:16 pm

worldranger wrote:
And as mentioned all points from IN,PAK,BD should have one stop service to the major Canadian metro areas. This can be a achieved by allowing EK to serve those cities at least once a day.

Denying everything outside the four Indian cities that you mention is denying the consumer in favor of one airline.

You are actually the one favoring 1 airline as your demands are intentionally written in such a way they can only be met by 1 airline (EK).

Could you elaborate on the importance for the Canadian consumer of being able to reach Bangladesh with 1 stop? I'm not seeing it. :roll:
 
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:21 am

worldranger wrote:
The market adjusts to reality - while its working well now for AC, Westjet and EK could eventually launch a coordinated service of WS 787s from YVR and other points etc and feed into EKs system.

The Canadian diaspora deserves one stop service to all points in IN,PAK,BD. The Star Allinace solution with AC through LH etc is not efficient for the consumer. AC's connection to Air India via the YYZ-DXB direct flight does not address the Vancouver, Calgary, Montreal consumer.

Let the market dictate. It's not about Air Canada its about the consumer


I understand that it would be nice to have one stop service to all of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh from smaller Canadian cities, it is just not practical. Calgary is a decent sized Canadian city but has an astronomical amount of long haul international flying for a relatively small city. Please look at relative sized American, and other cities worldwide and you will see what I mean. Thank goodness for a strong Canadian business community, immigration, and that Canadians are cosmopolitan and like to travel or most of these routes would not exist.

As for travelling with Emirates, Etihad, or Qatar, most Desi friends that I have choose not to fly them again after travelling with them only once. They would rather travel nonstop from Canada (AC or PK), or through Europe.

Here are their collective thoughts on the ME3: Feeling valued as a human being is very important, just because they carry enormous amounts of Desi passengers, does not mean they treat them well.

With respect, these are their personal thoughts and I must concur.
 
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:41 am

Jetty wrote:
worldranger wrote:
And as mentioned all points from IN,PAK,BD should have one stop service to the major Canadian metro areas. This can be a achieved by allowing EK to serve those cities at least once a day.

Denying everything outside the four Indian cities that you mention is denying the consumer in favor of one airline.

You are actually the one favoring 1 airline as your demands are intentionally written in such a way they can only be met by 1 airline (EK).

Could you elaborate on the importance for the Canadian consumer of being able to reach Bangladesh with 1 stop? I'm not seeing it. :roll:


Yep, sorry - as it reads it does sound like EK only - what I mean is - EY, QR, EK, Oman whatever - I believe open skies is the answer that helps the consumer most and is better overall for a country & its industries. The U.K. & Oz have essentially open skies with UAE - and its booming - benefitting consumers. I don't care about airlines I care about the free market and choice - cue US & EU aviation markets. Prices have plummeted and anyone can fly.

Who's to say that the ME3 or an Indian carrier wouldn't order the CS1/300 due this open market?

The subsidy argument is a croc as all the big three alliances have govt subsidized partners but because they are not competitors - it's okay.

Open the market wide open I say - and watch the competition explode and prices drop. May the best man win - the consumer!
 
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:30 am

in 2010 the UAE and its state-owned carriers, including Emirates Airline, wanted dozens of new landing slots in Canada in return for letting the Canadian Forces stay in Camp Mirage and continuing the flight in Afghanistan. Well Canada got kicked out and the UAE didn't get the slots. There is some interesting history that will make this interesting.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:51 am

LAX772LR wrote:


scbriml wrote:
It's not as clear-cut as you're assuming it to be.... but no need to take anyone's word for it:
if you're so confident in the theory that this is a net cost benefit to ALL pax in/out/through Canada, then show us the math that proves it.

Make sure you include the impact on the domestic market, which relies on the health of Canadian carriers, at the relative percentages used by the aggregate number of travelers vis-a-vis those that would even utilize the UAE2's service.


The data you're looking for is irrelevant.

His argument is that the competition will enable the consumer to determine what works best. People vote with their wallets. Some suppliers win. Some lose. The market decides.

Your argument is that competition will inevitably have winners and losers, and if anyone loses anything, it's unacceptable. Therefore the government, rather than the market, needs to determine who the winners and losers are.

The fundamental difference is not in any numbers, but whether or not you subscribe to mercantilism or not. You do, and he does not. The general consensus is that the world has generally benefitted since mercantilism was dismantled by Adam Smith.

Canada's aviation policy is inherently mercantilist, ironically much like the US populist economists whose mercantilist approach to NAFTA is making Canadians nervous.

This issue has already been reviewed by a former Minister of Transportation, and his recommendations - released in 2016 - call for a minimum of daily flights to anyone who wants to fly to Canada. Granted, he leans more towards Scribml's position than to Bannon's.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:58 am

767333ER wrote:
Where did you ever get that idea? This is simply not true and I'd really like to see you try to back that up.


Memories are short, eh? Remember when a lease to a military base in the UAE lapsed in 2011 because of the impasse over this issue?

Who had to bear the brunt of it? Not AC. Just the military folk operating in Afghanistan and the folk supporting them. And the Canadian taxpayer/consumer. Only AC benefited.

And then there was that unilateral cancellation of the bilateral agreement with Singapore in the early 1990s at AC's request. How often do countries do that?
Last edited by ElPistolero on Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:13 am

tofur wrote:
I understand that it would be nice to have one stop service to all of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh from smaller Canadian cities, it is just not practical. Calgary is a decent sized Canadian city but has an astronomical amount of long haul international flying for a relatively small city. Please look at relative sized American, and other cities worldwide and you will see what I mean. Thank goodness for a strong Canadian business community, immigration, and that Canadians are cosmopolitan and like to travel or most of these routes would not exist.

As for travelling with Emirates, Etihad, or Qatar, most Desi friends that I have choose not to fly them again after travelling with them only once. They would rather travel nonstop from Canada (AC or PK), or through Europe.

Here are their collective thoughts on the ME3: Feeling valued as a human being is very important, just because they carry enormous amounts of Desi passengers, does not mean they treat them well.


Considering that India and Pakistan are both in the top 5 sources of immigrants to Canada, it's kinda logical that we should be encouraging more connectivity to the region. Assuming, of course, that our policies should reflect the changing nature of our society. If Alberta can support Icelandair, I'm sure it can support greater connectivity to South Asia.

As for desis choosing to not fly EK EY QR etc -if that's the case, what difference does it make how often the ME3 (+ TK) fly here? If no one wants to fly them, so be it. Let them decide instead of presuming to speak for them.

Never really understood the logic of the "don't give them more access because no one will fly them anyway" argument. Why not let the market decide?
 
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:14 am

scbriml wrote:
I doubt we'll see much progress as long as the Canadian authorities put Air Canada ahead of giving the Canadian people more choice and competition.

Putting Canadian jobs ahead of foreign jobs - what a concept!
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ElPistolero
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:27 am

ACDC8 wrote:
Putting Canadian jobs ahead of foreign jobs - what a concept!


Presumably you'll be singing the same tune when the US starts pursuing a NAFTA renegotiation that puts Canadian jobs (lumber, automobile etc) on the line?

Better yet, lets ban or put quotas on Samsung and Apple imports - that should help create a few jobs at Blackberry.

What a concept!
 
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:06 am

longhauler wrote:
scbriml wrote:
I doubt we'll see much progress as long as the Canadian authorities put Air Canada ahead of giving the Canadian people more choice and competition.

I always chuckle when people say this ... as the Canadian government very rarely puts Air Canada ahead of anything. Even recently, when the Air Canada Public Participation Act was reviewed, it was deemed that this must stand. For those that don't know, the ACPPA is the set of rules, devised more than 25 years ago, that AC must follow ... that no other airline in or to Canada must follow.


I always chuckle when people believe that the ACPPA imposes some sort of unnecessary hardship on Air Canada.

Regardless of the fact that it was 'deemed that (it) must stand', Air Canada isn't even fully complying with the act. Firstly, neither Air Canada nor any of its subsidiaries are flying to all of Canada's territories or provinces; I believe it's been several years since Jazz last flew the YFB - YOW route. Secondly, Aveos being shut down has meant that they don't (outside of the tiny amount of routine checks) employ aircraft mechanics in the three provinces mandated in the act. Thirdly, Westjet in essence follows the same rules as Air Canada with regards to language onboard, ownership, and board membership rules even without having the act directly imposed on them. To insinuate that no other airline 'in or to Canada' follows the same sort of rules that Air Canada 'must follow' is factually incorrect.
 
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:16 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Your argument is that competition will inevitably have winners and losers, and if anyone loses anything, it's unacceptable. Therefore the government, rather than the market, needs to determine who the winners and losers are.

You would've been better served to ask what my argument was, instead of presuming to know it... because you got it dead wrong.

What I was saying is that he cannot accurately make an argument assuming a net benefit from a particular action, when he (and anyone else here) doesn't know what the comparative cost NOR comparative benefit of what an adverse action actually would be.

In this case, the action is changing their bilateral to open the floodgates to particular carriers that don't meet current prerequisites for such; versus the adverse action of keeping it in similar stasis or only expanding it slightly, especially in light of how that would affect the Canadian market in total and not just those who fly longhaul. Contrary to what you seem to believe, that's a tangibly definable comparison, and one that their government has assuredly reviewed within its decision making process.

*****************
No one said anything about the unacceptability of "anyone losing anything"-- so no idea where you're deriving that nonsense from.

That and "the market" is determining the "winner" or "loser" here, since again, it's predicated on O&D; which is the benchmark measure of "the market" in terms of international patronage-- so again, no idea where you're actually getting any of the ridiculous statement above from.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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longhauler
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:42 pm

Airlinerdude wrote:

I always chuckle when people believe that the ACPPA imposes some sort of unnecessary hardship on Air Canada.

Regardless of the fact that it was 'deemed that (it) must stand', Air Canada isn't even fully complying with the act. Firstly, neither Air Canada nor any of its subsidiaries are flying to all of Canada's territories and provinces; I believe it's been several years since Jazz last flew the YFB - YOW route. Secondly, Aveos being shut down has meant that they don't (outside of the tiny amount of routine checks) employ aircraft mechanics in the three provinces mandated in the act. Thirdly, Westjet in essence follows the same rules as Air Canada with regards to language onboard, ownership, and board membership rules even without having the act directly imposed on them. To insinuate that no other airline 'in or to Canada' follows the same sort of rules that Air Canada 'must follow' is factually incorrect.

The ACPPA has never required that Air Canada fly to all provinces and territories. And looking at Air Canada in 1985 when the act was written ... they did not.

You mention aircraft mechanics, as AVEOS' travails were in the public domain, however, the ACPPA covers just about every employee group and department. Not just placement, but also hiring and training. Air Canada can not hire the best for the job, they have to hire the best for job ... by region. And they do. Then when working, bases and departments must also lie within certain areas of Canada. The ACPPA is the reason there is a pilot base in Winnipeg, a call centre in New Brunswick, accounting in Manitoba, etc etc etc. (Oh ... and mechanics in YVR, YYC, YEG, YWG, YYZ, YOW, YUL, YHZ and YYT).

Bilingualism is a touchy subject, as politics often arise. But very basically, Air Canada must have a bilingual Flight Attendant on every flight. While it is good marketing in a lot of regions of Canada, as Westjet follows as well, however, it borders on "silly" in other areas. For example, a few years ago, I was to position on Air Canada from YVR to YEG. The bilingual F/A on the E190 was called to another flight. There was now no bilingual F/A for the flight .. the flight was cancelled. Many of us flew on Westjet ... where there was no bilingual F/A.

Further examples, EVERY document, manual, form etc in Air Canada must be issued and available in both official languages. It is one of the reasons that for many years, Air Canada had their own print shop. Granted, with the advent of iPads and digital manuals, it is less onerous. I do find it funny that Air Canada has to employ bilingual engineers to translate Pilot Operating Manuals that come from Seattle and San Jose dos Campos. (I am going to assume the ones that come from Toulouse are already available in the language of Moliere). I can't even imagine the machinations required to check, recheck then have Transport Canada approve such an endeavor.

And these are only a few examples.

Factually ... no other airline in Canada nor any flying to Canada has these (and many more) restrictions.

I am pretty sure that Air Canada has very little to do with the decision with regard to bilateral agreements with the UAE. If they did, and thought they might have some input, in my opinion, I would guess that relaxing the ACPPA would come ahead of CSeries purchase as a trade.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:59 pm

It is interesting to see UAE presents different free market theories to different countries while it violating all of them.

Closing Canadian military base, closing airspace to Qatar, not giving prime slots to Indian carriers and completely drive out US carriers.

I think others should follow Canada and China while dealing with UAE. Just don't respond to BASA amendment requests.

Fair competition in their view is like USA, 30+ daily frequencies from ME3 and ZERO from US3. Even questioning such situation is protectionist.

Aussies and Brits taking up temporary contract jobs in the sand pit. How is that good for their aviation sector?
 
ElPistolero
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Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:15 pm

LAX772LR wrote:

What I was saying is that he cannot accurately make an argument assuming a net benefit from a particular action, when he (and anyone else here) doesn't know what the comparative cost NOR comparative benefit of what an adverse action actually would be.

In this case, the action is changing their bilateral to open the floodgates to particular carriers that don't meet current prerequisites for such; versus the adverse action of keeping it in similar stasis or only expanding it slightly, especially in light of how that would affect the Canadian market in total and not just those who fly longhaul. Contrary to what you seem to believe, that's a tangibly definable comparison, and one that their government has assuredly reviewed within its decision making process.

*****************
No one said anything about the unacceptability of "anyone losing anything"-- so no idea where you're deriving that nonsense from.

That and "the market" is determining the "winner" or "loser" here, since again, it's predicated on O&D; which is the benchmark measure of "the market" in terms of international patronage-- so again, no idea where you're actually getting any of the ridiculous statement above from.


And I'll repeat again that he doesn't need to to, because the Government has already sanctioned a review of the the bilateral agreement policy - chaired by a former Minister of Transportation - and its conclusion on the issue is straightforward. To wit:

"Canada’s approach has outlived its usefulness and now renders our air services less competitive, less trade-friendly, and more costly than those of our global competitors."

"Maintaining the status quo presents the risk of continued decline in market share and a weakened economy, due to the higher costs of air travel that flow from a lack of competition."

"The Govern­ ment could issue a policy declaration that Canada will pursue more liberalized air agree­ ments with an objective of “open skies” with all willing, safe, and secure partner jurisdic­ tions within a transition period of no more than 10 years. The aim should be to narrow the gap with other major aviation markets that have competitive air hubs in terms of the pace and scope of Canada’s effort to liberalize its market for international air services. A recali­ bration to address the issues of cost and competitiveness would bring Canada closer to the OECD average for “trade friendliness” in air transport."

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/ctareview2014/CTAR_Vol1_EN.pdf

All this talk of 'adverse action' and "effect on the Canadian market" is a throwback to mercantilist rhetoric, so I'm not really convinced that I've misinterpreted you. How it affects (adversely or otherwise) airlines in Canada or elsewhere is down to how consumers choose to fly. Point being: either one believes that the Government should determine how traffic flows (and who it flows on), or one doesn't. We know where scribml stands. And we know you disagree with him.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:27 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
It is interesting to see UAE presents different free market theories to different countries while it violating all of them.

Closing Canadian military base, closing airspace to Qatar, not giving prime slots to Indian carriers and completely drive out US carriers.

I think others should follow Canada and China while dealing with UAE. Just don't respond to BASA amendment requests.

Fair competition in their view is like USA, 30+ daily frequencies from ME3 and ZERO from US3. Even questioning such situation is protectionist.

Aussies and Brits taking up temporary contract jobs in the sand pit. How is that good for their aviation sector?


Or one could simply ask the question: what is best for Canadian consumers. A Canadian commentator and trained economist far smarter than me distilled this issue to its core very succinctly in 2011:

"To be sure, the Emirates misplayed their hand by threatening to close the air base to us if they did not get their way: nobody likes bowing to threats, least of all Harper. But it never should have come to that. Opening the Canadian airline market to competition, from Emirates Airlines or anyone else, is not something we should grudgingly concede under pressure, but embrace in our own interest, for the lower prices and better service it promises Canadian travellers. If it costs Air Canada a few bucks, tough: we do not put planes in the skies to give airline workers something to do, but to fly airline passengers where they would like to go. (Emirates is subsidized, you say? Then it is Canadian passengers who are the beneficiaries.)"

Most of the arguments beyond that (including these notions of "fair" trade) depend on whether you believe airlines exist to serve consumers, or consumers exist to serve airlines.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 4985
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:51 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Or one could simply ask the question: what is best for Canadian consumers. A Canadian commentator and trained economist far smarter than me distilled this issue to its core very succinctly in 2011:.


Sure, it is up to Canadian authorities to find what suits Canada's interests. On same note how is blocking QR working out for Emirati air passengers, they are forced to pay more for sub par service.

They already overplayed their hand everywhere, now don't know what to do.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:53 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Or one could simply ask the question: what is best for Canadian consumers. A Canadian commentator and trained economist far smarter than me distilled this issue to its core very succinctly in 2011:.


Sure, it is up to Canadian authorities to find what suits Canada's interests. On same note how is blocking QR working out for Emirati air passengers, they are forced to pay more for sub par service.

They already overplayed their hand everywhere, now don't know what to do.


The EK-Canada issue isn't just an EK issue. It affects other carriers such as TK, ET, SV, QR etc (and probably a few more). It's become the "EK issue" because that's been the most visible case - one in which Canada actually contrived to come out worse off; the UAE managed to maintain status quo. That obviously makes some folk here bitter, and leads to framing this issue as an EK only issue. I personally see it as a harbinger of whether or not policies are going to put consumer interests ahead of airline interests. I frankly could care less what happens to EK as long as any airline that wants to fly to Canada can start with at least a daily frequency.

The larger economic point applies to all countries everywhere. Either you believe that consumers exist to give certain industry workers something to do (a view held by Bannon populists and the alt right in your country), or you believe that industries cater to consumers. Theres nothing Canada-centric about it.

(And no, I don't see any merit in what's going on in the Gulf between Saudi Arabia/UAE and Qatar - not from the transportation side and not from the geopolitical side).
 
Airlinerdude
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:07 am

Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:35 pm

longhauler wrote:

The ACPPA has never required that Air Canada fly to all provinces and territories. And looking at Air Canada in 1985 when the act was written ... they did not.

You mention aircraft mechanics, as AVEOS' travails were in the public domain, however, the ACPPA covers just about every employee group and department. Not just placement, but also hiring and training. Air Canada can not hire the best for the job, they have to hire the best for job ... by region. And they do. Then when working, bases and departments must also lie within certain areas of Canada. The ACPPA is the reason there is a pilot base in Winnipeg, a call centre in New Brunswick, accounting in Manitoba, etc etc etc. (Oh ... and mechanics in YVR, YYC, YEG, YWG, YYZ, YOW, YUL, YHZ and YYT).


Are we reading the same version of the ACPPA?

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/A-10.1/

Nothing is stated in the act about having to protect jobs outside of maintenance activities in any of the places you've mentioned. Furthermore, it does state quite clearly that Air Canada must offer some sort of service to the provinces and territories listed in the act.

The 'burden' that you seem to imply Air Canada endures because of this act is just laughable. The very fact that the Quebec government drops their lawsuit against AC with regards to the aforementioned Aveos when the CSeries were ordered, goes to show how much lenience AC enjoys.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/aveos-montreal-city-hall-air-canada-lawsuit-1.3459047

longhauler wrote:
Bilingualism is a touchy subject, as politics often arise. But very basically, Air Canada must have a bilingual Flight Attendant on every flight. While it is good marketing in a lot of regions of Canada, as Westjet follows as well, however, it borders on "silly" in other areas. For example, a few years ago, I was to position on Air Canada from YVR to YEG. The bilingual F/A on the E190 was called to another flight. There was now no bilingual F/A for the flight .. the flight was cancelled. Many of us flew on Westjet ... where there was no bilingual F/A.

Further examples, EVERY document, manual, form etc in Air Canada must be issued and available in both official languages. It is one of the reasons that for many years, Air Canada had their own print shop. Granted, with the advent of iPads and digital manuals, it is less onerous. I do find it funny that Air Canada has to employ bilingual engineers to translate Pilot Operating Manuals that come from Seattle and San Jose dos Campos. (I am going to assume the ones that come from Toulouse are already available in the language of Moliere). I can't even imagine the machinations required to check, recheck then have Transport Canada approve such an endeavor.


Bilingualism is also mandated to be maintained by all subsidiaries of Air Canada according to the act. From personal experience I can assure you that when AC Jazz was a subsidiary of ACE, bilingualism was not maintained on every flight, due to the nature of many flights only operating with a sole flight attendant. Call it as you will, however that to me is a direct violation of the act.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 4985
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:44 pm

@ElPistolero

While your macro economic theory is valid, for the most part, it didn't work out well for air service agreements with UAE.

USA-UAE - Open Skies - Local competition completely disseminated
India-UAE - Liberal ASAs - Local carriers recovered only after ME3 maxed out
China-UAE - Restrictive ASA - All six local carriers are thriving
Canada-UAE - Restrictive ASA- Air Canada doing well

USA-China - Liberal ASA - Even with Chinese route subsidies, US3 are doing reasonably well.
 
Airlinerdude
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:07 am

Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:55 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
It's not as clear-cut as you're assuming it to be.... but no need to take anyone's word for it:
if you're so confident in the theory that this is a net cost benefit to ALL pax in/out/through Canada, then show us the math that proves it.

Make sure you include the impact on the domestic market, which relies on the health of Canadian carriers, at the relative percentages used by the aggregate number of travelers vis-a-vis those that would even utilize the UAE2's service.


You don't need to have any empirical evidence to prove that greater competition would be a net benefit to 'ALL pax in/out/through Canada'; it's called perfect competition. Albeit, I don't believe that perfect competition will ever exist within Canada's aviation industry on any route, nor should it, for the sake of those employed by Canadian airlines. Though edging towards perfect competition would significantly decrease air fares for consumers as Air Canada's monopolistic hold of many markets would be decreased. If you're going to start claiming that economic theories don't hold true in this case, at least back it up with countering economic theories.

To your second point, I would love to see the duopoly that AC/WS currently hold, diminished. Have a look at many routes in Canada where the only two carriers are AC/WS, and you'll see the exact same prices time and time again.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1619
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:14 pm

USA-UAE flights earlier too was pretty less, at most one flight a day from US3 majors. They didn't have much flights beyond ME to other countries. They preferred to transfer people through their EU partners. To say that the competition completely disseminated is bit of a stretch given how low the US3 flights were. And all US carriers are showing record profits.

USA-China has lots more O&D. Chinese are probably the highest number of immigrants in US and there is good traffic between US & China, and most of the major US-China city pairs are within non-stop flying distance, without the ULH of India-US routes. So Chinese don't have to backtrack to Dubai to fly to US. And there aren't as many Chinese or US in ME as those from South & SouthEast Asia.

US3 are doing pretty well, seeing how good their traffic are. They never had many non-stops to India, or to Dubai. Still they are doing pretty good. Similarly Air Canada won't go under just because of ME3 carriers. Majority of their bread & butter routes are to US & Europe and there is no way that ME3 will take that away. At least Air Canada is operating non-stops to India, which will always be preferred to one-stop through ME. Just like AI is drawing a fair share of passengers on its US-India non-stops, similarly, Air Canada will continue to see healthy loads to India.

Indian carriers are a special category as they suffer from multiple policy issues. The cost of fuel, the 5/20 rule, labour issues, taxes etc all contributed to poor show by Indian carriers. Plus the long distance between India and US, the high cost of fuel over the last decade,unviability of bases outside India also played a role. If fuel was still around $100 per barrel, doubt AI could have profitably launched non-stop to US, even with 787s. The 5/20 rule effectively crippled Indian carriers, as they couldn't fly the profitable international routes to offset the losses on domestic end.

Even if US3 shut down the token non-stops to India that they have, it won't affect their bottom lines much. Same for AC.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:37 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
@ElPistolero

While your macro economic theory is valid, for the most part, it didn't work out well for air service agreements with UAE.

USA-UAE - Open Skies - Local competition completely disseminated
India-UAE - Liberal ASAs - Local carriers recovered only after ME3 maxed out
China-UAE - Restrictive ASA - All six local carriers are thriving
Canada-UAE - Restrictive ASA- Air Canada doing well

USA-China - Liberal ASA - Even with Chinese route subsidies, US3 are doing reasonably well.


That doesn't align with reality. The US carriers all have larger profit margins than AC and WS.The US market is also more competitive than the Canadian market - lower fares and all that. The Governments review of air travel is pretty clear on this point (see quotes above).

Any company will do well if it's protected from competition or segments thereof. Whether it's good for the country is a separate issue.

Can't speak to China -don't follow them.
 
ddp
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:57 pm

Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:06 pm

To me the parallel with this is is what happened with Iceland. Several years ago Iceland and Canada signed an open skies agreement, Air Canada was against since there was not enough O&D traffic to the island. Ben Smith, a VP at AC came out publicly and said it should not happen. It did happen, and what happened several cities received flights to Iceland, leading to easier and cheaper one stop travel between Canada and Europe. Vancouver, Edmonton, Toronto, Halifax and Montreal all now have direct service - and ask people in those cities if they are complaining about the new air travel?

Same thing with the Middle east, there is a large Indian and Pakistani diaspora in Canada, US passport holders also do not need tourist Visa's to India any longer. Having a one stop in the ME countries makes sense, considering how weak those countries are at creating there own hubs. What will happen is cheaper flights, shorter travel times, better connections to secondary cities and more competition. Even if it doesn't go full access, let them do 3x a week out of Vancouver and Calgary respectively. Maybe let Qatar go up to 4x a week out of Montreal, and leave Toronto as is.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 9455
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:53 am

Airlinerdude wrote:
You don't need to have any empirical evidence to prove that greater competition would be a net benefit to 'ALL pax in/out/through Canada'; it's called perfect competition.

The word "perfect" in there, should be your first clue that this bunk isn't worth wasting breath on discussing... it doesn't exist in any real world application or scenario.



Airlinerdude wrote:
Albeit, I don't believe that perfect competition will ever exist within Canada's aviation industry

Orrrrrrr anywhere, for that matter :roll:
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:29 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Airlinerdude wrote:
You don't need to have any empirical evidence to prove that greater competition would be a net benefit to 'ALL pax in/out/through Canada'; it's called perfect competition.

The word "perfect" in there, should be your first clue that this bunk isn't worth wasting breath on discussing... it doesn't exist in any real world application or scenario.



Airlinerdude wrote:
Albeit, I don't believe that perfect competition will ever exist within Canada's aviation industry

Orrrrrrr anywhere, for that matter :roll:


You are correct perfect competition only exists when all things are equal - so for airlines its access to slots, capital, cheap oil, govt subsidies (in a equal manner), low corp tax rates, etc). People just think open skies means level playing field. But kudos to AC for starting those new flights to India. With the three flights, they are probably offering one stop connections to the bulk of the travelers between India and Canada. With a good percentage getting nonstop (Canada is a very different market than the US when it comes to India traffic on where they fly to and the % of VFR vs business travelers).
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 4985
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:32 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
...Any company will do well if it's protected from competition or segments thereof. Whether it's good for the country is a separate issue.


At the end of the day, It is your decision. All I am saying don't leave the barn door wide open and complain later like we are doing.
 
User avatar
yowza
Posts: 4377
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

Re: UAE and Canada holds talk on aviation

Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:31 pm

I suspect nothing at all will come of this. I haven't seen a peep about this in ANY Canadian media.

YOWza

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