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Just been hearing that TAP's been doing well in 2017 but I noticed that they seem to have a lack of capacity on the A330 routes to America. Do anyone have any ideas how they can manage on the new A330 Neo's or maybe they can explore a new transatlantic aircraft like the 777X?

777X will be too big for their current routes.

Their strategy has been made very clear: The plan to remain a full service carrier while still being able to compete with LCC's. They think they can do that by maintaining a low operating cost and putting more seats in their planes.
In the TATL market, they ordered the A321LR to expand to up to 10 destinations in the U.S. and 8 more in Brazil.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/todayint ... /29210715/
I think they intend to fill the gap between the large network carriers and the LCC's in the TATL market.
The A333NEO's will replace their current widebody fleet. These already offer a capacity increase from the current A332 fleet and most of the cities they will serve in N.America will have a hard time filling an A333 in the off season so anything larger would be bad, IMO. As it is they've already started cutting down JFK and BOS for the upcoming Winter schedule and those are their 2 largest markets in the U.S.

I think that the A339NEO and A321NEOLR will be the core of TAP future in long haul but maybe we could see a small number of a bigger airplane (A359 would be nice) if in the future they have the market for it.

I hope one day they do a RTW fare similar to Lufthansas/Austrian/Swiss (though they'll likely need an Asian destination for that to work) I booked a Lufthansa RTW fare and while intra-European legs were on TAP, I am still annoyed I could not make use of TAPs very good connections to secondary cities in Brazi as well as Venezuela.I guess the market would be too small, but I really wanted a direct flight to Belem instead of having to go via Frankfurt and Sao Paulo :p

But in seriousness, I think their strategy of a "low cost full service carrier" is a good one and so far seems to be doing good for them. Their widebody fleet needs urgent replacing, which they're doing, and the premium cabins on their shorthaul also need a refurb (seriously, their E190s use the exact same seats in business as economy! Same pitch and everything iirc)

dredgy wrote:

But in seriousness, I think their strategy of a "low cost full service carrier" is a good one and so far seems to be doing good for them. Their widebody fleet needs urgent replacing, which they're doing, and the premium cabins on their shorthaul also need a refurb (seriously, their E190s use the exact same seats in business as economy! Same pitch and everything iirc)

Is there any European airline that has special seats in business on short haul flights? Some will give you a few extra cm legroom, but all airlines I've encountered uses the same seats in business and economy.

PortugalAviator wrote:

Just been hearing that TAP's been doing well in 2017 but I noticed that they seem to have a lack of capacity on the A330 routes to America. Do anyone have any ideas how they can manage on the new A330 Neo's or maybe they can explore a new transatlantic aircraft like the 777X?

They have to be able to fill the capacity on deep off-peak at a profit, sometimes that will mean turning business way in the peaks, but this will, hopefully, also drive up yield. Portugal itself has a very seasonal travel market, so these are problems shared with several other mid-size European airlines, EI being another, with a very similar fleet.

Bostrom wrote:

dredgy wrote:

But in seriousness, I think their strategy of a "low cost full service carrier" is a good one and so far seems to be doing good for them. Their widebody fleet needs urgent replacing, which they're doing, and the premium cabins on their shorthaul also need a refurb (seriously, their E190s use the exact same seats in business as economy! Same pitch and everything iirc)

Is there any European airline that has special seats in business on short haul flights? Some will give you a few extra cm legroom, but all airlines I've encountered uses the same seats in business and economy.

Air serbia i believe, ba Midhaul 321 if you get them on a short flight, same if you get a replacement in the for of a pair of air Berlin 320's in abu dhabi mode. Plus the odd widebody on shorthaul, but that doesnt count.

airbazar wrote:

As it is they've already started cutting down JFK and BOS for the upcoming Winter schedule and those are their 2 largest markets in the U.S.

Where did your hear that? AFAIK no reduction is planned for JFK or BOS besides what is usual. JFK should remain daily and BOS reduces to 5 weekly. As for the biggest markets in NA, I think MIA is bigger than BOS.

Bostrom wrote:

dredgy wrote:

But in seriousness, I think their strategy of a "low cost full service carrier" is a good one and so far seems to be doing good for them. Their widebody fleet needs urgent replacing, which they're doing, and the premium cabins on their shorthaul also need a refurb (seriously, their E190s use the exact same seats in business as economy! Same pitch and everything iirc)

Is there any European airline that has special seats in business on short haul flights? Some will give you a few extra cm legroom, but all airlines I've encountered uses the same seats in business and economy.

I don't fly intra-European business that often, but I've had a few that use 3 standard seats divided into 2, which is fine. TAP is the only one in my limited experience that uses the exact same seats. Booked to fly LH and TAP again in business intra europe, so will soon find out more soon!

I haven't flown TAP in many years. I used to fly them just after VARIG died to go to Europe from Rio for work. Business Class was slightly less that fine. Or "not that good" the seat, about the same as LH's angled seat (LHbwas pretty but not comfortable either) over night in an angled seat was easily suffered. Then I'd connect onwards. Last month I flew them in business on an A319 for a 3 hour flight, (yes, an economy seat but w more space and food)in and it was excellent. I would love to try their new International Business Class because I have a feeling it's pretty good today.
Fernando Pinto (TAP's CEO) was at VARIG when we (at Landor) did the new VARIG livery and while I personally never met him, my colleagues did and they LOVED him: wicket smart and very nice.
Given what people I respect said about him gives me faith he's been doing a good job at TAP.
LAST: the problem with TAP, is sort of NOT TAP's fault. People (Americans) don't have the same lust to visit Portugal as they do many other parts of Europe. I think Portugal is yet to be fully discovered! Lisbon is a fabulous city in so many ways. I think TAP's new ads "Stop in Lisbon on the way to Rome, Paris etc) is brilliant. I believe if people stopped for 2 days in Lisbon they'd fall in love and go back one day and do Portugal top to bottom.
The hotel in Lisbon I recently stayed in I could have moved into and stayed the rest of my life!

dredgy wrote:

I don't fly intra-European business that often, but I've had a few that use 3 standard seats divided into 2, which is fine. TAP is the only one in my limited experience that uses the exact same seats. Booked to fly LH and TAP again in business intra europe, so will soon find out more soon!

All intra-european flights I've been has used the exact same seats in the whole cabin. Some will block the middle seat in the premium cabin, and some will give the passengers in the front a bit of extra legroom. But apart from that, the hard product has been the same as in economy.

LXwing wrote:

airbazar wrote:

As it is they've already started cutting down JFK and BOS for the upcoming Winter schedule and those are their 2 largest markets in the U.S.

Where did your hear that? AFAIK no reduction is planned for JFK or BOS besides what is usual. JFK should remain daily and BOS reduces to 5 weekly. As for the biggest markets in NA, I think MIA is bigger than BOS.

In the OAG thread. JFK being suspended for the Winter and BOS reduced.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1367287

dredgy wrote:

But in seriousness, I think their strategy of a "low cost full service carrier" is a good one and so far seems to be doing good for them. Their widebody fleet needs urgent replacing, which they're doing, and the premium cabins on their shorthaul also need a refurb (seriously, their E190s use the exact same seats in business as economy! Same pitch and everything iirc)

As others have pointed out, it is extremely rare to find a J/F seat that is different than Y in European short haul routes on any airline. TP is not any different.

To AirBazar,

Further updates were done that same week and JFK-LIS is back to it's normal schedule and not cut for the winter like it was posted before.


TP is also leasing 4x A330-900neo and an additional A320neo from ALC.

VC10er wrote:

. People (Americans) don't have the same lust to visit Portugal as they do many other parts of Europe. I think Portugal is yet to be fully discovered! Lisbon is a fabulous city in so many ways.

and I hope it stays that way and doesn't become a Venice, Rome, or Barcelona swamped with obnoxious American tourists.

FlyRow wrote:

Air serbia i believe, ba Midhaul 321 if you get them on a short flight, same if you get a replacement in the for of a pair of air Berlin 320's in abu dhabi mode. Plus the odd widebody on shorthaul, but that doesnt count.

Unfortunately Air Serbia has removed their excellent J seats. Aeroflot and Tarom do still have different seats.

dredgy wrote:

Bostrom wrote:

dredgy wrote:

But in seriousness, I think their strategy of a "low cost full service carrier" is a good one and so far seems to be doing good for them. Their widebody fleet needs urgent replacing, which they're doing, and the premium cabins on their shorthaul also need a refurb (seriously, their E190s use the exact same seats in business as economy! Same pitch and everything iirc)

Is there any European airline that has special seats in business on short haul flights? Some will give you a few extra cm legroom, but all airlines I've encountered uses the same seats in business and economy.

I don't fly intra-European business that often, but I've had a few that use 3 standard seats divided into 2, which is fine. TAP is the only one in my limited experience that uses the exact same seats. Booked to fly LH and TAP again in business intra europe, so will soon find out more soon!

Your experience will very much depend on whether you catch a TAP frame whose interior has been done recently or not. Some have been updated, some haven´t yet. I know people who travelled on 18 year old frames and said: I just travelled on a brand new TAP A320.

With regards to TAP's expansion, anyone can clarify why they do not fly direct to JHB?
Surely with a large community in the country, they would have a demand?

They need to improve their service they are horrible . flew with them from lisbon to vienna they offered a snack service but we had to line all the way to the back to actually get it flight attendants won't service they are extremely rude with a lot of attitude

The 777X is colossal for them. Maybe the 787-10, but that too seems big and TAP has already committed to the A330neo

OGLOBAL wrote:

They need to improve their service they are horrible . flew with them from lisbon to vienna they offered a snack service but we had to line all the way to the back to actually get it flight attendants won't service they are extremely rude with a lot of attitude

You were clearly unlucky. I fly TAP once or twice a year (every year!!!). They're not great, but they're not bad either. And usually polite!

JJMilk wrote:

With regards to TAP's expansion, anyone can clarify why they do not fly direct to JHB?
Surely with a large community in the country, they would have a demand?

Not very certain about the community in Johor Baru, Malaysia...but presuming you mean JNB...Johannesburg, then yes there is demand, but lots of options...TAAG taking a lot of traffic between SA and Portugal. Probably low yielding. Maybe sometime in the future TAP will return to JNB, if they can also offer good 1-stop options to Europe and North America

i'd like to see them to HAV, low yield, i know but would be likely the shortest trip from Cuba and could connect many cities, double daily would do with a332 ... 9:30 likely tha a321LR wouldn't make it.

santos wrote:

To AirBazar,
Further updates were done that same week and JFK-LIS is back to it's normal schedule and not cut for the winter like it was posted before.

That's great to hear. I was a little surprised when I heard the news.

continental004 wrote:

VC10er wrote:

. People (Americans) don't have the same lust to visit Portugal as they do many other parts of Europe. I think Portugal is yet to be fully discovered! Lisbon is a fabulous city in so many ways.

and I hope it stays that way and doesn't become a Venice, Rome, or Barcelona swamped with obnoxious American tourists.

No longer true. Portugal is now the "it" destination for Americans. Yes, it's nowhere on the level of Paris or Rome, but there's a reason why TP is scrambling every airplane it can to start routes to the U.S. Having said that, I find the type of Brits who visit Portugal to be significantly more obnoxious than the Americans. Frankly, maybe because I'm a Portuguese living in the U.S., I find American tourists to be quite pleasant and well behaved.

OGLOBAL wrote:

They need to improve their service they are horrible . flew with them from lisbon to vienna they offered a snack service but we had to line all the way to the back to actually get it flight attendants won't service they are extremely rude with a lot of attitude

You must have been on one of the "reduced crew" flights. They are having crew shortage problems and when a flight operates with a reduced crew, they [the crew] have the option under the current contract of not serving any food and beverages on the flight. Hopefully they'll sort that out for next Summer.

I hope TAP starts a link from Lisbon to Edinburgh. Should be enough demand for pax from Portugal to Scotland and also connections. Easyjet fly twice a week from EDI to LIS, but seems clearly too short capacity.

rbrunner wrote:

OGLOBAL wrote:

They need to improve their service they are horrible . flew with them from lisbon to vienna they offered a snack service but we had to line all the way to the back to actually get it flight attendants won't service they are extremely rude with a lot of attitude

You were clearly unlucky. I fly TAP once or twice a year (every year!!!). They're not great, but they're not bad either. And usually polite!

i have to be fair check in process check in staff were polite and amazing just on board it was very weird. for me they are like brussels Airlines but at least with brussels the cabin staff are nice. they weren't rude to me personally but to other passengers of a specific race. the airport though was nice they had lots of food and shopping options

airbazar wrote:

santos wrote:

To AirBazar,
Further updates were done that same week and JFK-LIS is back to it's normal schedule and not cut for the winter like it was posted before.

That's great to hear. I was a little surprised when I heard the news.

continental004 wrote:

VC10er wrote:

. People (Americans) don't have the same lust to visit Portugal as they do many other parts of Europe. I think Portugal is yet to be fully discovered! Lisbon is a fabulous city in so many ways.

and I hope it stays that way and doesn't become a Venice, Rome, or Barcelona swamped with obnoxious American tourists.

No longer true. Portugal is now the "it" destination for Americans. Yes, it's nowhere on the level of Paris or Rome, but there's a reason why TP is scrambling every airplane it can to start routes to the U.S. Having said that, I find the type of Brits who visit Portugal to be significantly more obnoxious than the Americans. Frankly, maybe because I'm a Portuguese living in the U.S., I find American tourists to be quite pleasant and well behaved.

OGLOBAL wrote:

They need to improve their service they are horrible . flew with them from lisbon to vienna they offered a snack service but we had to line all the way to the back to actually get it flight attendants won't service they are extremely rude with a lot of attitude

You must have been on one of the "reduced crew" flights. They are having crew shortage problems and when a flight operates with a reduced crew, they [the crew] have the option under the current contract of not serving any food and beverages on the flight. Hopefully they'll sort that out for next Summer.

sorry about double post but just saw this reply now after posting the other one . probably my first leg it was with tap express and the cabin were polite and nice also service provided shortage of staff would make sense but still .. hopefully they solve it fast i like portugal and also tap concept and marketing

airbazar wrote:

santos wrote:

To AirBazar,
Further updates were done that same week and JFK-LIS is back to it's normal schedule and not cut for the winter like it was posted before.

That's great to hear. I was a little surprised when I heard the news.

As far as I could understand, the thing is that TAP is changing the JFK-LIS flight number and schedule for W17, thus the current TP208 vanishes to give way to a TP204 still on a daily basis.
The JFK route could never be suspended or even reduced for the winter, as the latest pax numbers on this route show that TAP was able to increase pax on its own flights at the same time that Delta started the route also with great success - an 80% overall increase YOY in July.

I just read online that TAP Portugal will 'change' it's name back to TAP Air Portugal from the 14th of September.
http://www.sapo.pt/noticias/economia/ta ... 1a0a08c9ef

Bostrom wrote:

Is there any European airline that has special seats in business on short haul flights? Some will give you a few extra cm legroom, but all airlines I've encountered uses the same seats in business and economy.

SU and TK have US domestic first style recliners throughout their mainline fleets.

In addition, TK also runs quite a few regularly scheduled daily flat bed flights to places like London, Paris, Frankfurt or Berlin, for example 3x daily on A330s to Paris, 3x daily on 777/330 to London and at least once daily to TXL, FRA, MUC and DUS on 330s. Not bad for 3-3.5 hour flights.

ua900,
I think TP also fly with wide bodies to several European destinations such as Vienna, London Heathrow or Paris. But I think is to make a better use of their WB fleet during the day then anything else.

grjplanes wrote:

JJMilk wrote:

With regards to TAP's expansion, anyone can clarify why they do not fly direct to JHB?
Surely with a large community in the country, they would have a demand?

Not very certain about the community in Johor Baru, Malaysia...but presuming you mean JNB...Johannesburg, then yes there is demand, but lots of options...TAAG taking a lot of traffic between SA and Portugal. Probably low yielding. Maybe sometime in the future TAP will return to JNB, if they can also offer good 1-stop options to Europe and North America

Yes, I meant JNB. Thanks.

santos wrote:

I just read online that TAP Portugal will 'change' it's name back to TAP Air Portugal from the 14th of September.
http://www.sapo.pt/noticias/economia/ta ... 1a0a08c9ef

So everyone, any update on the new title/brand/livery reveal today? I've been checking online and twitter but there's been nothing so far...

TheLion wrote:

santos wrote:

I just read online that TAP Portugal will 'change' it's name back to TAP Air Portugal from the 14th of September.
http://www.sapo.pt/noticias/economia/ta ... 1a0a08c9ef

So everyone, any update on the new title/brand/livery reveal today? I've been checking online and twitter but there's been nothing so far...

There's no new livery. The only thing that will change is the replacement of the word TAP by AIR. The vertical "TAP PORTUGAL" on both sides of the vertical stab will become "AIR PORTUGAL". Everything else will remain unchanged.

Any updates on possible service to SFO??

dash500 wrote:

TheLion wrote:

santos wrote:

I just read online that TAP Portugal will 'change' it's name back to TAP Air Portugal from the 14th of September.
http://www.sapo.pt/noticias/economia/ta ... 1a0a08c9ef

So everyone, any update on the new title/brand/livery reveal today? I've been checking online and twitter but there's been nothing so far...

There's no new livery. The only thing that will change is the replacement of the word TAP by AIR. The vertical "TAP PORTUGAL" on both sides of the vertical stab will become "AIR PORTUGAL". Everything else will remain unchanged.

Ok thanks. Have they done the reveal yet, as it was reported in ch-aviation that they would today once their new A333 arrived?

The starting point of this thread - that TAP should add another long-haul fleet type - is no-go. TAP is a survivor. Most other national carriers of medium/small size countries in Europe vanished. An airline the size of TAP should work the efficiencies of a single long-haul type by adjusting frequency seasonally and managing seat pricing wisely. For its size, it is vulnerable to a competitive attack and

TheLion wrote:

[Ok thanks. Have they done the reveal yet, as it was reported in ch-aviation that they would today once their new A333 arrived?

I believe the 4th A333 didn't arrive today. The official date for the change of the trade name will be September 14.

However, some yellow cabs in NYC already sport the new logo:

incitatus wrote:

The starting point of this thread - that TAP should add another long-haul fleet type - is no-go. TAP is a survivor. Most other national carriers of medium/small size countries in Europe vanished. An airline the size of TAP should work the efficiencies of a single long-haul type by adjusting frequency seasonally and managing seat pricing wisely. For its size, it is vulnerable to a competitive attack and

TAP's bet on the long haul will rely on the A339 and on the A321LR which they hope to be a game changer in the shorter transatlantic routes.

* According to Airliner World, the A339 fleet is now intended to total 20 aircraft.

In Jornal de Negócios

dash500 wrote:

incitatus wrote:

The starting point of this thread - that TAP should add another long-haul fleet type - is no-go. TAP is a survivor. Most other national carriers of medium/small size countries in Europe vanished. An airline the size of TAP should work the efficiencies of a single long-haul type by adjusting frequency seasonally and managing seat pricing wisely. For its size, it is vulnerable to a competitive attack and

TAP's bet on the long haul will rely on the A339 and on the A321LR which they hope to be a game changer in the shorter transatlantic routes.

* According to Airliner World, the A339 fleet is now intended to total 20 aircraft.

Currently they have plans to get 18 A339: 12 bought directly, 4 leased from ALC (2 of these are a sale and lease back from TAP's order), and 2 leased from BOC aviation.
But they still have 6 options from their order, so they could get more if necessary.

The 12 A321LR mentioned in the shown presentation are the current plan, up from their original order of 10 with the additional 2 also being leased from BOC aviation.

LXwing wrote:

Currently they have plans to get 18 A339: 12 bought directly, 4 leased from ALC (2 of these are a sale and lease back from TAP's order), and 2 leased from BOC aviation.
But they still have 6 options from their order, so they could get more if necessary.

The 12 A321LR mentioned in the shown presentation are the current plan, up from their original order of 10 with the additional 2 also being leased from BOC aviation.

The order placed directly with Airbus was originally for 14 A339 but it seems the numbers were adjusted for 12 aircraft.
http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... craft.html

The A321neo breakdown was originally 14 LR and 10 non-LR. Then it changed to 8 LR and 16 non-LR; now it seems to be 12 LR and 12 non-LR.

“The real growth catalyst will be when the A321neo LRs start coming. We would love to get the LR sooner,”
Urbahn said. TAP Portugal will start taking A321neos fitted with two auxiliary tanks in from 2018, ahead of the
arrival of its first LRs in 2020.
TAP will use its 14 threeclass
A321neo LRs to serve Brazil and destinations in North America, such as Montreal,
Toronto and Washington. The Portuguese carrier currently has a large morning bank of flights, followed by a
smaller second peak. The new aircraft will be used to build the second bank.

dash500 wrote:

LXwing wrote:

Currently they have plans to get 18 A339: 12 bought directly, 4 leased from ALC (2 of these are a sale and lease back from TAP's order), and 2 leased from BOC aviation.
But they still have 6 options from their order, so they could get more if necessary.

The 12 A321LR mentioned in the shown presentation are the current plan, up from their original order of 10 with the additional 2 also being leased from BOC aviation.

The order placed directly with Airbus was originally for 14 A339 but it seems the numbers were adjusted for 12 aircraft.
http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... craft.html

The A321neo breakdown was originally 14 LR and 10 non-LR. Then it changed to 8 LR and 16 non-LR; now it seems to be 12 LR and 12 non-LR.

“The real growth catalyst will be when the A321neo LRs start coming. We would love to get the LR sooner,”
Urbahn said. TAP Portugal will start taking A321neos fitted with two auxiliary tanks in from 2018, ahead of the
arrival of its first LRs in 2020.
TAP will use its 14 threeclass
A321neo LRs to serve Brazil and destinations in North America, such as Montreal,
Toronto and Washington. The Portuguese carrier currently has a large morning bank of flights, followed by a
smaller second peak. The new aircraft will be used to build the second bank.

To try and clarify my previous post.
TAP ordered 14 A339 with 6 further options. From those 14, 2 were sold and leased back from ALC. Another 2 will be leased from ALC, and a further 2 from BOC aviation. Adding the 6 leased aircraft to the remaining 12 from the original order, we get the said 18 A339. The 6 options still stand.
TAP ordered 24 A321neo, for which the version breakdown was not known AFAIK despite several rumors. Some months ago it was disclosed (internally) that it would be 10 LR and 14 non-LR, and that has not changed AFAIK. What changed is that 2 additional A321LR will be leased from BOC, to make a total of 12.

Here is the plan of delivery for the ordered A330neo and A320neo aircraft, according to what was known earlier this year. The leased aircraft were not yet included.

LXwing wrote:

dash500 wrote:

LXwing wrote:

TAP ordered 24 A321neo, for which the version breakdown was not known AFAIK despite several rumors. Some months ago it was disclosed (internally) that it would be 10 LR and 14 non-LR, and that has not changed AFAIK. What changed is that 2 additional A321LR will be leased from BOC, to make a total of 12.

Now it shows 22x A321neo at Airbus.com

The information disclosed internally some months ago doesn't agree with your numbers. Anyway, I believe they changed again.

dash500 wrote:

LXwing wrote:

dash500 wrote:

Now it shows 22x A321neo at Airbus.com

The information disclosed internally some months ago doesn't agree with your numbers. Anyway, I believe they changed again.

When is the first NEO of any variant due to be delivered to TAP?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In the future, maybe they would fly to more cities in the Americas especially to Asia maybe.

Hey guys,
I have fond memories of a day spotting at Macau airport in the late 90s, before Macau was handed back to the Chinese. A TAP A340-300 was one of the highlights of the day. Besides some A32Xs at LHR, that A340 is the only TAP plane that I have ever photographed.
I believe that TAP does not fly to Macau anymore - is that correct? Are there any plans for TAP to resume Macau?
Cheers,
Bunumuring

dash500 wrote:

LXwing wrote:

dash500 wrote:

Now it shows 22x A321neo at Airbus.com

The information disclosed internally some months ago doesn't agree with your numbers. Anyway, I believe they changed again.

I think my numbers agree with both the graph that I posted (not considering leases) and the slide that you posted above (considering the leases). Anyway, I'm not trying to create an argument or anything around the exact numbers, as they have changed along time like you said and they could still change again. The expansion of TAP following the privatization has been rather dynamic, with constant updates and changes to the original fleet and route plans, so we'll just have to wait and see exactly what comes out of it.

PanAm_DC10 wrote:

dash500 wrote:

LXwing wrote:

Now it shows 22x A321neo at Airbus.com

The information disclosed internally some months ago doesn't agree with your numbers. Anyway, I believe they changed again.

When is the first NEO of any variant due to be delivered to TAP?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Without looking at the production list, I believe it will be start with the A321neo in the first half of 2018. That is considering the A330neo program is delayed and there won't be any deliveries before the 3Q2018.