http://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/h ... -1.2071481

Good news for the airlines in both countries, it seems that this October India and UAE will meet to discuss a new air service agreement, I don´t think we will see a open skies policy, now the quota of 130000 seats is at 100% and according to the article the meeting was due at 80% so apparently it´s a bit later than expected.

Not long ago EK was asking for open skies to the northeastern part of India but I did never understand that move, the main markets of India are far from there and if the UAE can grab more seats maybe we can see more A380´s flying to India and some new destinations.

It will be interesting to see how India and UAE solve the problem of giving seat allocation into the different airlines and the different Emirates, I guess airlines like Vistara will be very interested in starting to fly to UAE and some of the low cost could open more routes, we will see what happen in the UAE with 4 main players and I think all will be very interested in adding more seats.

What´s your guess for the new agreement?? 50% more?? the market is really big and planes are almost full all year round.

Wonder if LCCs will now serve Amritsar.

I hope the Indian authorities ensure their own carriers have a fair number of seats allocated relative to the UAE carriers. I want to see India's homegrown airlines compete in a robust and sustainable manner, but so far the regulators' generosity has given the Gulf carriers licence to dominate the market.

the discussions are on since a long time. India isn't going to increase them until the bilterals for Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Sharjah and Ras Al Khaimah are clubbed into single UAE bilaterals. It will free up around 30,000 seats on both sides (from Abu Dhabi).

Now that IndiGo is going long haul, I am confident they will be a major party in bilateral agreement discussions... I am simply not worried about the interests of Indian airlines this time.

There is lot of demand from tier-II cities to international destinations. Many of them are low-yield ones, and given the razor thin margins that Indian carriers operate on and the policies that inhibit Indian carriers in India, and higher financing rates, Indian carriers don't operate as many planes or destinations. However, Dubai has both deep pockets and the metal to serve those areas.

Previously, the UPA govt came up with the absurd 5year/20 plane rule that inhibited the growth of Indian carriers. When the current NDA govt tried to liberalize it, the existing carriers opposed it tooth and nail to preserve their profits, and the Indian govt capitulated and just lifted the 5 year restriction, while holding on to 20 planes one. The govt should have boldly junked the policy in full. Add to this, the lack of good financing environment in India and high taxes (as govt still treats air travel as a luxury), Indian carriers will be limited to acting as feeders for international carriers in ME or SEA. The existing carriers are happy doing that while preventing any new entrants to grab the pie.

But now, there is lots of demand from 2nd tier cities to allow international travel and liberalize bilaterals as Indian carriers are not interested in serving them. Its much easier for govt politically to give away more seats to foreign carriers than to reduce taxes on air travel and appear pro-rich. So we will continue to see more liberalized bilaterals, where probably focus might be on enhanced capacities to 2nd tier airports while restricting the bigger ones, so that Indian carriers don't lose out too.

I read an article few days regarding Vijayawada international airport in India. It was reported that Emirates is set to launch services to/from the airport.
I have no idea how accurate is it.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/c ... awada.html

Seems like the 2 sides may have different issues to talk about:

On UAE side, especially EK, would like more flights/cities
On Indian side, the carriers would like more access to Dubai

Here, EK/EY may not be on the same page

dubaiamman243 wrote:

I read an article few days regarding Vijayawada international airport in India. It was reported that Emirates is set to launch services to/from the airport.
I have no idea how accurate is it.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/c ... awada.html

I am sure EK, FZ and EY are set to increase flights to India and open new routes as soon as possible and but I don´t see Vijayawada being one of the first ones.

If they agree for an open skies agreement then all the problems are solve.

blrsea wrote:

Previously, the UPA govt came up with the absurd 5year/20 plane rule that inhibited the growth of Indian carriers. When the current NDA govt tried to liberalize it, the existing carriers opposed it tooth and nail to preserve their profits, and the Indian govt capitulated and just lifted the 5 year restriction, while holding on to 20 planes one. The govt should have boldly junked the policy in full. Add to this, the lack of good financing environment in India and high taxes (as govt still treats air travel as a luxury), Indian carriers will be limited to acting as feeders for international carriers in ME or SEA. The existing carriers are happy doing that while preventing any new entrants to grab the pie.

Some laws in India are not helping local airlines at all but I don´t know why they are not doing anything about it, has the new govt done anything about the taxes for airplanes and parts?? because I think hey were just huge and some Indian airlines take planes for MX to Sri Lanka and other places outside India.

TheLion wrote:

I hope the Indian authorities ensure their own carriers have a fair number of seats allocated relative to the UAE carriers. I want to see India's homegrown airlines compete in a robust and sustainable manner, but so far the regulators' generosity has given the Gulf carriers licence to dominate the market.

I think many Indian airlines are in very good position now to fights against the ME3, much before than few years ago.

anshabhi wrote:

the discussions are on since a long time. India isn't going to increase them until the bilterals for Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Sharjah and Ras Al Khaimah are clubbed into single UAE bilaterals. It will free up around 30,000 seats on both sides (from Abu Dhabi).

Now that IndiGo is going long haul, I am confident they will be a major party in bilateral agreement discussions... I am simply not worried about the interests of Indian airlines this time.

30.000 seat for each side is a good number, and the clubbing for the UAE bilaterals seems logic to ask, Indigo is very important player in the market now.

Indian carriers should have 10 seats of capacity for every 1 seat granted to ME carriers.

The Indian strategy has always struck me as odd. Why negotiate separate bilats with each Emirate? And why limit cities and flights. Simply negotiate one number of seats between the countries and let them operate to wherever they want. Sure, EK and EY might jam up the metros with seats, but this will actually force the Indian carriers to develop Tier II markets and also to offer more direct services to Europe and Asia from the metros and to partner up with non-ME carriers.

manny wrote:

Indian carriers should have 10 seats of capacity for every 1 seat granted to ME carriers.

Or 20. Or 13. Or 9. Data please?

manny wrote:

Indian carriers should have 10 seats of capacity for every 1 seat granted to ME carriers.

I don´t know why but if they agree an open skies policy they can add as much as they need or as much as they want, I think the market is so big and diverse that the open skies is the best solution for everybody, the needs of AI-9W are not the sames as Indigo or Spicejet for example, same in the UAE side with EK-EY and FZ-Air Arabia,

ytz wrote:

The Indian strategy has always struck me as odd. Why negotiate separate bilats with each Emirate? And why limit cities and flights. Simply negotiate one number of seats between the countries and let them operate to wherever they want. Sure, EK and EY might jam up the metros with seats, but this will actually force the Indian carriers to develop Tier II markets and also to offer more direct services to Europe and Asia from the metros and to partner up with non-ME carriers.

I agree with you, same situation you can see around Europe with main airlines and low cost,

manny wrote:

Indian carriers should have 10 seats of capacity for every 1 seat granted to ME carriers.

Except the point of a bilateral agreement is equal access on both sides...

migair54 wrote:

manny wrote:

Indian carriers should have 10 seats of capacity for every 1 seat granted to ME carriers.

I don´t know why but if they agree an open skies policy they can add as much as they need or as much as they want, I think the market is so big and diverse that the open skies is the best solution for everybody, the needs of AI-9W are not the sames as Indigo or Spicejet for example, same in the UAE side with EK-EY and FZ-Air Arabia,

I would support an open skies agreement if there is a clause that no airline will carry the passengers to a third country. It should be truly bilateral.

manny wrote:

Indian carriers should have 10 seats of capacity for every 1 seat granted to ME carriers.

ME3? QR has nothing to do with this discussion.

Why should the UAE agree to anything other than open skies or equal capacity?

scbriml wrote:

manny wrote:

Indian carriers should have 10 seats of capacity for every 1 seat granted to ME carriers.

Why should the UAE agree to anything other than open skies or equal capacity?

You may have this little wrong; EK seems to have a fairly liberal access to India but not the otherway.

anshabhi wrote:

migair54 wrote:

manny wrote:

Indian carriers should have 10 seats of capacity for every 1 seat granted to ME carriers.

I don´t know why but if they agree an open skies policy they can add as much as they need or as much as they want, I think the market is so big and diverse that the open skies is the best solution for everybody, the needs of AI-9W are not the sames as Indigo or Spicejet for example, same in the UAE side with EK-EY and FZ-Air Arabia,

I would support an open skiesnu agreement if there is a clause that no airline will carry the passengers to a third country. It should be truly bilateral.

Bilateral means you can go between the two countries... it says nothing about going beyond.

This is Indian Donald Trump worthy stuff

vadodara wrote:

You may have this little wrong; EK seems to have a fairly liberal access to India but not the otherway.

Is that fact or your opinion? There seems to be plenty of Air India Express, Jet and Indigo flights at Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Sharjah whenever I'm there. If the current agreement isn't equitable, then that the fault of the Indian Government.

However, that doesn't change my point - why would the UAE agree to giving Indian carriers 10 seats to each one for them in a new agreement as suggested by manny?

As far as DXB is concerned 66502 seats out of a maximum possible 66504 seats are utilized. Same goes for the Indian carriers as well. While EK and FZ operate something like 212 weekly services with all but 30 of those being with widebodies, Indian carriers operate over 320 services but mostly with narrow-bodies (only AI/DEL and 9W/BOM operate with a 787 / 77W).

There is strong case for open-sky if people could look beyond their noses, beyond faux patriotism, political jingoism, religious bigotry and petty politicking of Indian air carriers and private airport operators:

UAE with 21.29 non-resident Indians is the 2nd largest host country for Indian expatriates
UAE with USD 59.1 billion of trade is India’s 3rd largest trading partner
UAE is currently the 5th largest investor into India. When added to the USD 75 billion worth of investments committed during PM Modi’s visit, UAE will emerge as by far the largest investor into India
UAE is one of India’s closest strategic partners in defence and military cooperation

Employment opportunities: Given India's leadership in space, agriculture, pharmaceuticals and bio-technology, there is considerable scope for business as well as employment opportunities for Indians in UAE. For the Expo 2020 Dubai would require more than 2 million foreign workers – both skilled and unskilled. With the world’s second largest English speaking pool of employable citizens, India is ideally placed to become the human resource hub for UAE’s needs in the coming decade. Opening up every state capital in India and secondary business hubs in states to airlines of the UAE will greatly enhance the opportunity for Indian citizens from these cities to cheaply, quickly and effectively participate in this immense job market.

Enhancing the market for Indian exports: UAE is the second largest market globally for Indian products. The main items of exports from India included mineral fuels, natural or cultured pearls, cereals, gems and jewellery, yarn, fabrics, metals, cotton yarn, marine products, machinery and equipment, plastic and linoleum products, tea and meat and preparations. Opening up secondary Indian cities will ensure short transit times for natural and perishable products from India to the 250+ destinations that are served beyond UAE. Besides, open skies ensure that major items of imports from UAE such mineral fuels, mineral oils, natural or cultured pearls, precious or semi-precious stones, metal ores & metal scrap, sulphur and unroasted iron pyrites, electrical machinery and equipment and parts thereof, iron and steel etc. can all be delivered closer to the factories and plants by avoiding time consuming and expensive surface trans-shipment after they arrive into one of the major airports in the country today.

Boost for Tourism: We see a major push by the Government of India to promote tourism. With four international air transport hubs in the UAE inbound tourism into India has excellent potential for future growth. With an open sky to every state capital and secondary city in India, Indian and UAE carriers are better placed than any other international hub, in view of our close geographic proximity – to promote ‘Destination India’ with special focus on cultural tourism, religious tourism to a country which uniquely is the birthplace of four major global religions, beach and mountain tourism, heritage tourism and medical tourism. Apart from being able to introduce a host of global nationalities to touristic attractions in India, high spending Emiratis can be pushed to use Indian health services, including the ayurvedic establishments and other natural healing/remedies.

Finally, the UAE and indeed bilaterals with any country interested in flying into India could be made conditional to them supporting the UDAN scheme. Today, we charge regular domestic flyers a surcharge to fund the Regional Connectivity Fund (RCF). Scrap this. Make it conditional for any foreign carrier wishing to operate to Tier 1 cities to put X amount of money per seat into the RCF. That way we aren’t burdening our domestic passengers to subsidise UDAN but yet ensuring a decent and steady flow of funding to promote and enhance regional connectivity. Further ideas could be to make them contribute to the development of the 200 new airports that the Government is anyway planning to develop, with a condition of giving them an open sky there for 5 years in lieu of their support.

The key here is to look beyond the selfish interests of Indian carriers and Indian private airport operators both of who stand to lose if foreign airlines start serving every major population centre in India.

For those whose patriotic sentiments i may have hurt and who may feel that MEB3 and their brethern are Neo East India Companies, may i remind them to ditch their Apple iphones, Samsung TVs, refrigerators, microwaves, Toyota cars, Electrolux washing machines and put on an HMT watch, buy a nice EC TV and drive an Ambassador before they cast the first stone at my thoughts.

brgds//Vimanav

With the growth of Indian carriers there will be one stop connectivity to the major international cities from secondary cities anyways. The expansion of EK is India will increase passenger numbers but will hurt Indian aviation as whole. The best thing that can come out of this negotiations is that India-UAE billaterals are unified and not per Emirates.
It's not about patriotic sentiments, it about direct connectivity from India to the world.
Gone are the days when Indian carriers could not make profit. There would have been more nonstops to USA if the Gulf carriers were restricted to point to point demand only.

Dubai cannot milk UAE-India relationship. Also millions of expats can come back with one incident. Not a valid argument to give away perpetual air rights.

Abu Dhabi is content with EY/9W deal.

Indian carriers should look for O&D traffic rather than dropping passengers at a major hub.

Hopefully all he incremental capacity don't end up with the large cities and EK/FZ are given access to more number of secondary cities

Vimanav wrote:

As far as DXB is concerned 66502 seats out of a maximum possible 66504 seats are utilized. Same goes for the Indian carriers as well. While EK and FZ operate something like 212 weekly services with all but 30 of those being with widebodies, Indian carriers operate over 320 services but mostly with narrow-bodies (only AI/DEL and 9W/BOM operate with a 787 / 77W).

There is strong case for open-sky if people could look beyond their noses, beyond faux patriotism, political jingoism, religious bigotry and petty politicking of Indian air carriers and private airport operators:

brgds//Vimanav

Why be so dramatic - religious bigotry? Seriously? Firstly the UAE is hardly a religiously tolerant country, and if people don't want to connect there, its because of their lack of religious freedoms (and how they treat South Asians) not the other way around - they just granted their first Hindu temple in Abu Dhabi - Jee thanks Emir (where's the begging bowl for the next ask). The people on this forum who want to limit the ME3 do so primarily for one reason - to develop Indian aviation in a fair and just manner. Why hasn't the UAE govt merged their separate Emirate bilaterals to allow unused seats to be used to Dubai? Remember this would help the UAE economy by bringing more Indian tourists in. It's because they are looking out for THEIR (meaning each Emirates') interests. India needs to do the same. Something like only 30% of EK's and EY's traffic from India is O&D (the rest connecting). They are free to stop offering super cheap flights to non UAE destinations and pick up more O&D traffic. Oh but wait they won't because they have built a global network on India's back (but many on Anet won't even acknowledge this). You say tourism and business development - well India is well connected to the ME and UAE in particular. What India needs is more nonstop connectivity to world. Dubai went from being backwater (in the 80's - I was there) to a global city in no small part because of EK. India lacks even one network global carrier. There is no other example in the world of a large source country not having even one global carrier. You really think Indian carriers have no desire to serve new routes? Something like 2.5 million pax fly between India & the US - you think US carriers or Indian carriers don't want to serve these routes? They don't because of the ME3 competition. For the record, I don't think India should roll back the seats given to the ME3 (Indian aviation is growing so fast, that new demand is created each year). India now has good competition from the ME3, allowing pax the choice to fly them (and pax who want to fly them should). Let new demand go to push Indian airlines to fly more abroad and encourage foreign carriers to begin new nonstop flights. India-OZ, India-US, India-China being the areas that desperately need nonstop connectivity. Open skies would be a disaster and there is no way the GOI would ever offer that. While I don't agree with the way the previous govt's aviation policy, India achieved one thing, keeping the UAE & Qatar dependent on India. Let's discuss reforming Indian tax policies rather than saying India can't change so just give away the house. Aviation brings a ton of jobs. I would guess most workers in the ME would rather have a job in their home country rather than be based in Dubai, Doha, etc.

scbriml wrote:

vadodara wrote:

You may have this little wrong; EK seems to have a fairly liberal access to India but not the otherway.

Is that fact or your opinion? There seems to be plenty of Air India Express, Jet and Indigo flights at Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Sharjah whenever I'm there. If the current agreement isn't equitable, then that the fault of the Indian Government.

Hmm, it is the Indian airliners like Jet and Indigo asking for flights entitled under the existing rights and being denied by the Dubai authorities.

It may be the fault of the past Indian govt.'s that they may have signed a non-equitable agreement; however, not exactly the reason to justify extending a lopsided agreement.

scbriml wrote:

However, that doesn't change my point - why would the UAE agree to giving Indian carriers 10 seats to each one for them in a new agreement as suggested by manny?

Wasnt debating that point; but based on your previous justification, what if UAE authorities were willing? Sounds like that would be OK.

Vimanav wrote:

As far as DXB is concerned 66502 seats out of a maximum possible 66504 seats are utilized. Same goes for the Indian carriers as well. While EK and FZ operate something like 212 weekly services with all but 30 of those being with widebodies, Indian carriers operate over 320 services but mostly with narrow-bodies (only AI/DEL and 9W/BOM operate with a 787 / 77W).

There is strong case for open-sky if people could look beyond their noses, beyond faux patriotism, political jingoism, religious bigotry and petty politicking of Indian air carriers and private airport operators:

brgds//Vimanav

Hmmm! So why is Abu Dhabi pumping in billions to replicate EK's success? By your logic, they should allow EK to be the UAE's carrier as opposed to Dubai's carrier.

In anycase, my point is simple. If DXB is going to arm-twist Indian carriers from granting favorable slots, then they probably should not expect a favorable response.

If anything, let DXB come-up with an equitable way to allow for development of the market. After all, trade is a 2-way street.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 190_1.html

India and Dubai are likely to finalise an agreement to increase the seat entitlement by 6,000 seats a week. However, the outcome of the talks depends on Indian carriers agreeing to hold talks without any commitment of getting preferred slots at Dubai's main airport.

Is there any update on the meeting that was scheduled for the first week of October 2017

Emirates and Qatar Airways have most likely exhausted all of there rights to India.

I think it was at least wise for Etihad Airways to invest in Jet Airways, at least it gave them more access to India via another airline.

Both Emirates and Fly Dubai are willing to launch Amritsar (ATQ) as new Indian destination but Amritsar is still not a point of contact for carriers from Dubai or Abu Dhabi in UAE. Indian carriers however can fly to both destinations. Currently, both Air India Express and SpiceJet flights to Dubai are getting almost 100% passenger load. There is no onward connections available to passengers from Dubai as both Indian carriers do not code share with any other carriers.

Emirates or Fly Dubai starting flights will be a big boost for the travelers from Punjab, India but Indian Civil Aviation Ministry continues to ignore Amritsar by not allowing Dubai carriers. Turkish Airlines asking to allow Amritsar for many many years now but India continues to say NO to it.

CanadaFair wrote:

Wonder if LCCs will now serve Amritsar.

So what was the result?

Wait, 320 slots for Indian airlines versus 212 for Dubai airlines... So unfair...

The UAE well not set the example of a lopsided bilateral.

I don't understand the emotionality.
1. Because of Europe curfews, passengers prefer catching a flight to the UAE, have an in flight nap, and then connect onward.
2. India airports high fuel taxes make their airlines less competitive on long haul connections.
3. Lack of international to international connections due to GoI policies handicaps Indian airlines on many routes.

So because of this, EK and EY serve how many cities not served by Indian airlines? For example, flights to and from Australia/Malaysia/Indonesia to Europe would be well served from DEL or BOM (or a new Mumbai airport) if they could connect with the service (times) and costs customers expect. That should have been the Kangaroo route, not Dubai... But service must meet customer expectations. Prices must show up on search engines near the top.

Indian airlines aren't allowed to compete, so why expect them to?

NichCage wrote:

Emirates and Qatar Airways have most likely exhausted all of there rights to India.

I think it was at least wise for Etihad Airways to invest in Jet Airways, at least it gave them more access to India via another airline.

Everyone has exhausted their rights. It is now a zero sum game instead of growth.

To others, Bilaterals include more than air service. Is there nothing India wants more of from the UAE outside of aviation?

Both will benefit from an expansion.

Lightsaber

Indian PM is scheduled to visit UAE in February. Maybe something is announced at that time.

http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/society/in ... -1.2157542

Modi’s upcoming visit is expected to further boost the political, diplomatic and economic ties between the two countries.
The Indian community in the UAE is also expecting their prime minister to make new announcements that will benefit the expat community.