Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
ADrum23 wrote:.
Can the Boeing 787 Dreamliners reach Japan, China, etc, from the eastern United States?
treebeard787 wrote:ADrum23 wrote:.
Can the Boeing 787 Dreamliners reach Japan, China, etc, from the eastern United States?
Yes. Yes it can, with ease.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JAL7 ... /KBOS/RJAA
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CHH4 ... /KBOS/ZBAA
ADrum23 wrote:treebeard787 wrote:ADrum23 wrote:.
Can the Boeing 787 Dreamliners reach Japan, China, etc, from the eastern United States?
Yes. Yes it can, with ease.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JAL7 ... /KBOS/RJAA
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CHH4 ... /KBOS/ZBAA
Those are both 789's, what about the 788's?
bzcat wrote:The challenge with midsize US cities on TPAC is demand. The TATL service to midsize US cities are primarily driven by Europe-originating sales and I think similar demand pattern has to develop in TPAC (i.e. Asia-originating travel demand to places like SAN, BNA, CLT, AUS etc.) before we will see service.
2travel2know2 wrote:It's actually a lot a question of demand from either side of the Pacific, so one could probably expect Asian hubs (take for example Star Alliance hubs) ICN, NRT, PEK, PVG, TPE to have flights within a year or two to US/Canada West Coast airports such as ANC, PDX, SEA, SMF, ONT, SNA (?), SAN, PHX, DEN, YVR, YEG, YYC; specially when there are airport pairs not currently flown by any airline.
jbpdx wrote:RIght about YVR, SEA; and SNA.YVR and SEA already have multiple flights to all those cities. Forget ANC, too few people; SNA, inadequate runway; and SMF, too close to Bay Area. Although there's talk of CI to ONT, I doubt it.
bzcat wrote:BOS already has TPAC service, just not to ICN.
bzcat wrote:BOS already has TPAC service, just not to ICN.
airbazar wrote:If CLT gets JL service, and BOS gets KE sevice, MSP should get at least one of the twoThat's a tricky question to answer because such route would likely be served by an Asian carrier however there are still untapped large market by nearly all Asian carriers, and i would expect them to start there before venturing into mid-size markets. For example, no one serves MIA. JL doesn't serve SEA, IAH, or ATL. ANA doesn't serve BOS, DFW, or ATL. CX doesn't serve SEA. KE is the only airline that has pretty much tapped all large markets but somehow are still avoiding BOS.
That leaves us with the Chinese carriers. They may be the first to serve one of the listed mid-size markets due to China's "one route, one airline" policy but at the same time, they have "mid-size markets" of their own that are in some case larger than our own large markets, so they may just continue to tap routes from U.S. large cities to China's mid-size cities.
If I have to give an answer I'd say KE ICN-BOS, If it's only about the cities listed in the initial post, I would guess JL with NRT-CLT.
fsafsx wrote:Indy is perfect for an Asia flight
globalcabotage wrote:fsafsx wrote:Indy is perfect for an Asia flight
Oh dear God, Detroit south with entitlements to every major international market nonstop.
This entitled to LHR, now NRT is getting out of hand. IND is a short drive/flight to ORD and DTW. No reason for IND to NRT.
Sure, you said Asia, but substitute ICN for NRT and the same result.
I'm sure IND ( substitute BNA, CLE, CMH, CVG, MCI, PIT, STL, etc.) can all support flights to CDG, FRA, GRU, HKG, LHR, NRT, SIN, SYD, etc.
MinnesotaPlanes wrote:NO-ONE IS TALKING ABOUT MSP. MSP SHOULD GET MORE TPAC. LOOK AT THE OTHER MSP TATL/TPAC FORUM. (sorry for the all caps, just really passionate about MSP getting excluded from this conversation.
jubguy3 wrote:MinnesotaPlanes wrote:NO-ONE IS TALKING ABOUT MSP. MSP SHOULD GET MORE TPAC. LOOK AT THE OTHER MSP TATL/TPAC FORUM. (sorry for the all caps, just really passionate about MSP getting excluded from this conversation.
... aren't you the guy that said that Denver doesn't have any tourism draw (in reference to MSP)? I've been hearing rumors that KE is considering service to an unserved delta hub... only out of spite do I hope that SLC gets it and not MSP. I know it's unlikely considering the widebody gate restrictions at SLC currently until the terminal redevelopment program is complete, and the hot+high issue / tire speed but out of spite I want to steal Korean air from Minneapolis (or whoever else gets it) now.
MSP can / has to wait it's turn - you already had the haneda flight and seeing as that MSP is in close proximity to DTW I don't think it's super likely. Just as we have to wait for our pickings at the carcass after Seattle and LAX get their share...
globalcabotage wrote:fsafsx wrote:Indy is perfect for an Asia flight
Oh dear God, Detroit south with entitlements to every major international market nonstop.
This entitled to LHR, now NRT is getting out of hand. IND is a short drive/flight to ORD and DTW. No reason for IND to NRT.
Sure, you said Asia, but substitute ICN for NRT and the same result.
I'm sure IND ( substitute BNA, CLE, CMH, CVG, MCI, PIT, STL, etc.) can all support flights to CDG, FRA, GRU, HKG, LHR, NRT, SIN, SYD, etc.
stl07 wrote:globalcabotage wrote:fsafsx wrote:Indy is perfect for an Asia flight
Oh dear God, Detroit south with entitlements to every major international market nonstop.
This entitled to LHR, now NRT is getting out of hand. IND is a short drive/flight to ORD and DTW. No reason for IND to NRT.
Sure, you said Asia, but substitute ICN for NRT and the same result.
I'm sure IND ( substitute BNA, CLE, CMH, CVG, MCI, PIT, STL, etc.) can all support flights to CDG, FRA, GRU, HKG, LHR, NRT, SIN, SYD, etc.
Well PIT did land a TPAC sooooo...
Midwestindy wrote:stl07 wrote:globalcabotage wrote:
Oh dear God, Detroit south with entitlements to every major international market nonstop.
This entitled to LHR, now NRT is getting out of hand. IND is a short drive/flight to ORD and DTW. No reason for IND to NRT.
Sure, you said Asia, but substitute ICN for NRT and the same result.
I'm sure IND ( substitute BNA, CLE, CMH, CVG, MCI, PIT, STL, etc.) can all support flights to CDG, FRA, GRU, HKG, LHR, NRT, SIN, SYD, etc.
Well PIT did land a TPAC sooooo...
A charter flight soooooo.....
fsafsx wrote:Indy is perfect for an Asia flight
fsafsx wrote:Indy is perfect for an Asia flight
SeaDoo wrote:fsafsx wrote:Indy is perfect for an Asia flight
Are you joking? IND doesn't even have Europe. Isn't YYZ the only year round scheduled flight. I think their is seasonal CUN.
ADrum23 wrote:So all the talk right now is focused on which mid-sized city will get TATL service next (or new TATL service if they already do).
I want to now ask the question which mid-sized city will get TPAC service. Cities like AUS, RDU, BNA, MSY, CLT, etc, have shown interest in TPAC flights at one point or another. Granted, it will not be as easy as TATL service and will take longer to land, but it could be doable.
Which mid-sized city will we see direct TPAC service launched from first? And what will the planes be? Can the Boeing 787 Dreamliners reach Japan, China, etc, from the eastern United States?
MinnesotaPlanes wrote:NO-ONE IS TALKING ABOUT MSP. MSP SHOULD GET MORE TPAC. LOOK AT THE OTHER MSP TATL/TPAC FORUM. (sorry for the all caps, just really passionate about MSP getting excluded from this conversation.
izbtmnhd wrote:With TPAC you folks are thinking backwards, to me.
The question should be: What new Chinese cities will gain service to key North American gateways? All the real growth is on that side of the world.
2travel2know2 wrote:jbpdx wrote:RIght about YVR, SEA; and SNA.YVR and SEA already have multiple flights to all those cities. Forget ANC, too few people; SNA, inadequate runway; and SMF, too close to Bay Area. Although there's talk of CI to ONT, I doubt it.
However Asian tourists would love seasonal summer flights to ANC.
Wouldn't rule out some Asian hub - SMF someday, as "it's too close to SFO" was used against Asia-SJC flights a while ago and SJC now does have Asian non-stops.
Midwestindy wrote:ADrum23 wrote:So all the talk right now is focused on which mid-sized city will get TATL service next (or new TATL service if they already do).
I want to now ask the question which mid-sized city will get TPAC service. Cities like AUS, RDU, BNA, MSY, CLT, etc, have shown interest in TPAC flights at one point or another. Granted, it will not be as easy as TATL service and will take longer to land, but it could be doable.
Which mid-sized city will we see direct TPAC service launched from first? And what will the planes be? Can the Boeing 787 Dreamliners reach Japan, China, etc, from the eastern United States?
Out of the ones you mentioned I think it would be CLT, I think there are some others that should also be in the mix with CLT including PHL/SLC. I might have skipped over a few larger ones, but probably next is some combination of AUS/BWI/SMF/maybe RDU, all with decent sized Asian/Chinese/or Japanese percentage of the population(VFR) + also have the business ties which is a good combination, then after that point it is impossible to predict what each market will look like...
jubguy3 wrote:I think SLC will see TPAC service sooner than later - our new airport is under construction (completion of the first phase in 2020, should be able to handle much more widebody traffic), DL announced a JV with KE, SLC's AMS / CDG flights have been performing very well, and the LHR flight has been good. SLC sees slightly more traffic to Asia because of the tech industry (1/7th of the flash memory produced in the world is produced in Lehi, UT) and SLC is a popular skiing destination / hub to the mountain west for SkyTeam. Whether the economics exist is unknown by me but it seems like the conditions for a TPAC flight are in SLC's favor.
If we see a flight on either KE or DL to ICN, I would imagine that it would have to either use a DL A350 (which I don't see delta giving up from DTW) or one of KE's 787-9 (though KE only has 3 in service and 7 orders left) - SLC is hot and high and the previous NRT flight we saw immediately after the NW merger was cancelled because DL was taking too many restrictions on payload with the aircraft they were using at the time, and I don't think the demand was quite there. Its unfortunate that DL cancelled their 787 order because I think that would have put SLC in a position to see more transoceanic traffic - a lot of Delta's fleet are either too large or take too many payload restrictions because SLC is hot and high.
PDX757 wrote:jubguy3 wrote:I think SLC will see TPAC service sooner than later - our new airport is under construction (completion of the first phase in 2020, should be able to handle much more widebody traffic), DL announced a JV with KE, SLC's AMS / CDG flights have been performing very well, and the LHR flight has been good. SLC sees slightly more traffic to Asia because of the tech industry (1/7th of the flash memory produced in the world is produced in Lehi, UT) and SLC is a popular skiing destination / hub to the mountain west for SkyTeam. Whether the economics exist is unknown by me but it seems like the conditions for a TPAC flight are in SLC's favor.
If we see a flight on either KE or DL to ICN, I would imagine that it would have to either use a DL A350 (which I don't see delta giving up from DTW) or one of KE's 787-9 (though KE only has 3 in service and 7 orders left) - SLC is hot and high and the previous NRT flight we saw immediately after the NW merger was cancelled because DL was taking too many restrictions on payload with the aircraft they were using at the time, and I don't think the demand was quite there. Its unfortunate that DL cancelled their 787 order because I think that would have put SLC in a position to see more transoceanic traffic - a lot of Delta's fleet are either too large or take too many payload restrictions because SLC is hot and high.
I seem to recall SLC-NRT was launched shortly after CDG and was only around for a year or so. Not sure if that was due to loads or difficulty using the 767 on the route due to hot and high conditions. I recall the CDG flight needing tech stops shortly after its inauguration; not sure what would be different now.
The wasatch front has grown a lot economically since the NRT flight ran. Maybe ICN would be a better connecting point with the JV, good feed on both ends would probably keep the route alive.
jubguy3 wrote:PDX757 wrote:jubguy3 wrote:I think SLC will see TPAC service sooner than later - our new airport is under construction (completion of the first phase in 2020, should be able to handle much more widebody traffic), DL announced a JV with KE, SLC's AMS / CDG flights have been performing very well, and the LHR flight has been good. SLC sees slightly more traffic to Asia because of the tech industry (1/7th of the flash memory produced in the world is produced in Lehi, UT) and SLC is a popular skiing destination / hub to the mountain west for SkyTeam. Whether the economics exist is unknown by me but it seems like the conditions for a TPAC flight are in SLC's favor.
If we see a flight on either KE or DL to ICN, I would imagine that it would have to either use a DL A350 (which I don't see delta giving up from DTW) or one of KE's 787-9 (though KE only has 3 in service and 7 orders left) - SLC is hot and high and the previous NRT flight we saw immediately after the NW merger was cancelled because DL was taking too many restrictions on payload with the aircraft they were using at the time, and I don't think the demand was quite there. Its unfortunate that DL cancelled their 787 order because I think that would have put SLC in a position to see more transoceanic traffic - a lot of Delta's fleet are either too large or take too many payload restrictions because SLC is hot and high.
I seem to recall SLC-NRT was launched shortly after CDG and was only around for a year or so. Not sure if that was due to loads or difficulty using the 767 on the route due to hot and high conditions. I recall the CDG flight needing tech stops shortly after its inauguration; not sure what would be different now.
The wasatch front has grown a lot economically since the NRT flight ran. Maybe ICN would be a better connecting point with the JV, good feed on both ends would probably keep the route alive.
I'm pretty sure the NRT flight was a relic of the Northwest merger - Delta couldn't make it work. It was cut due to a combination of load factors and low demand. I think the economics of a TPAC flight have definitely changed since then and an ICN flight will work if the right AC is used
PDX757 wrote:jubguy3 wrote:PDX757 wrote:
I seem to recall SLC-NRT was launched shortly after CDG and was only around for a year or so. Not sure if that was due to loads or difficulty using the 767 on the route due to hot and high conditions. I recall the CDG flight needing tech stops shortly after its inauguration; not sure what would be different now.
The wasatch front has grown a lot economically since the NRT flight ran. Maybe ICN would be a better connecting point with the JV, good feed on both ends would probably keep the route alive.
I'm pretty sure the NRT flight was a relic of the Northwest merger - Delta couldn't make it work. It was cut due to a combination of load factors and low demand. I think the economics of a TPAC flight have definitely changed since then and an ICN flight will work if the right AC is used
IIRC the flight was announced a few months after the merger. I'm pretty sure it started with a 333 and then went to 332 and seasonal before being dropped. A KE 332 may be the right aircraft for the job. I wonder if the buildup of SEA to Asia has kept SLC from seeing any nonstops.
I'm interested in your reasoning. Is there a massive Asian-American population in the Indianapolis metropolitan area that I'm not aware of? Does Eli Lilly or Cummins generate enough demand for a flight to Asia? Does the auto parts industry create a large demand for flights to Asia? Do you think that the number of Asian students attending Purdue or IU or IUPUI is sufficient to sustain a non-stop flight to Asia? Are Asian tourists flocking to the modern architecture in Columbus, Indiana, or to experience Indiana's basketball heritage, or has motorsport taken off in Asia to an extent that a trip to the Brickyard is a "must see" destination?
zakuivcustom wrote:I'm surprised that MIA is only mention once in the whole thread
As for "new" destination, I'll say PHL and AUS, follow by the like of BNA and RDU and maybe SMF. SMF do suffered from the fact that it's not a big market while being close enough to Bay Area, however. Someone did mention about SJC, but Silicon Valley itself has a ton more TPAC demand compare to SMF.
Midwestindy wrote:Out of the markets mentioned on this thread without TPAC service BWI, SMF, AUS, RDU, IND, PIT, BNA, MSY, CLT, SLC, PHL, MIA I combined Developed Asia-Pacific and Developing Asia-Pacific to find who had the most total pax to and from Asia.
2011 passengers both ways combined to Asia
SMF: 30,813 (Loses pax to Bay Area)
BNA: 70,340
MSY: 82,751
BWI: 86,300 (Loses pax to IAD)
PIT: 91,169
IND: 97,994
CLT: 102,055 (Connection opportunities)
AUS: 121,296 (Could draw from SAT)
SLC: 134,002 (Connection opportunities)
RDU: 134,350 (Some connection opportunities)
PHL: 144,449 (Connection opportunities)
MIA: 330,431 (Connection opportunities)
kavok wrote:Good Data, thanks for sharing. Taking those numbers, and converting to PDEW for the largest markets on the list yields the following:
PDEW:
IND: 134
CLT: 140
AUS: 166
SLC: 184
RDU: 184
PHL: 198
MIA: 453
So basically, only MIA could fill a 787 with a 250 seat capacity from its own O-D alone. Yes, many of these airports have the ability to make up the difference with connections, but doing so comes at the expense of existing Asia flights. And of course this is also ignoring that these pax are heading to multiple Asian destinations.
ADrum23 wrote:MSY seems to be more European and Caribbean focused
"Michael Hecht, president and CEO of Greater New Orleans Inc., an economic development group that helped lure the flight.
Now, who may be calling next? Hecht said Asia is the obvious next place to look . . . we do know that there's a cultural affinity for New Orleans in Asia that could potentially make it attractive
Local leaders are now laying the groundwork for what is likely the city's biggest tourism play yet -- China.
Perry said it will be years before New Orleans moves the needle on Chinese travel. Local infrastructure gaps range from the major work, such as designing travel packages that appeal specifically to Chinese travelers, to smaller changes, such as making sure local restaurants have menus in Mandarin on hand.
Perry said a lot of legwork is still needed to make sure New Orleans is included in Chinese group travel itineraries and packages.
The availability of international flights into New Orleans is also a hurdle.
When it comes to China, however, Houston is the likely gateway to New Orleans for Chinese travelers for the time being.
"Is it a longer-term play? Sure it is," Perry said. "But the market is so gigantic that even with smaller market penetration there is a huge number."
Midwestindy wrote:2011 passengers both ways combined to Asia
SMF: 30,813 (Loses pax to Bay Area)
BNA: 70,340
MSY: 82,751
BWI: 86,300 (Loses pax to IAD)
PIT: 91,169
IND: 97,994
CLT: 102,055 (Connection opportunities)
AUS: 121,296 (Could draw from SAT)
SLC: 134,002 (Connection opportunities)
RDU: 134,350 (Some connection opportunities)
PHL: 144,449 (Connection opportunities)
MIA: 330,431 (Connection opportunities)