A fairly comprehensive article about BUF's attempts to bring in transatlantic service, having met with 43 different airlines in the last 2 years.

They sound fairly optimistic it will happen.

http://buffalonews.com/2017/08/05/buffa ... c-flights/

The first airline that came to my mind, JetBlue. This seems to be the perfect route for them to start TATL service. obviously, there would be very little feed on the BUF end of things. An A321 or a B737 would be the perfect aircraft. I can see DL having a go at BUF TATL. Best bet would be either Norwegian or Wow Air.

Have they talked to Baltia?

jumbojet wrote:

The first airline that came to my mind, JetBlue. This seems to be the perfect route for them to start TATL service. obviously, there would be very little feed on the BUF end of things. An A321 or a B737 would be the perfect aircraft. I can see DL having a go at BUF TATL. Best bet would be either Norwegian or Wow Air.

Why do you say there would be very little feed? Buffalo isn't a tiny city, the metro population is only slightly smaller than Salt Lake City, Hartford, and New Orleans.

Honestly BUF is a hard sell given its distance from major East Coast cities, and its proximity to YYZ, but I suppose it is not completely unreasonable. WOW Air seems like the most likely candidate given their similar service to PIT.

One factor that one must also consider is the weather, BUF is smack in the middle of lake effect country, and some carriers might shy away for that reason alone unless they were only considering seasonal summer routes.

D8 seems more likely than other possibilities that are being mentioned.

maximairways wrote:

jumbojet wrote:

The first airline that came to my mind, JetBlue. This seems to be the perfect route for them to start TATL service. obviously, there would be very little feed on the BUF end of things. An A321 or a B737 would be the perfect aircraft. I can see DL having a go at BUF TATL. Best bet would be either Norwegian or Wow Air.

Why do you say there would be very little feed? Buffalo isn't a tiny city, the metro population is only slightly smaller than Salt Lake City, Hartford, and New Orleans.

By feed I presume they mean connecting traffic.

Besides D8 and WW, I wonder if Condor couldn't propose flights to BUF in place of or in parallel to YYZ they are now serving?

maximairways wrote:

jumbojet wrote:

The first airline that came to my mind, JetBlue. This seems to be the perfect route for them to start TATL service. obviously, there would be very little feed on the BUF end of things. An A321 or a B737 would be the perfect aircraft. I can see DL having a go at BUF TATL. Best bet would be either Norwegian or Wow Air.

Why do you say there would be very little feed? Buffalo isn't a tiny city, the metro population is only slightly smaller than Salt Lake City, Hartford, and New Orleans.

Yes, #50 MSA by size.
I think there may be two factors:
-YYZ traffic for cheaper fares
-Developing Niagara Falls tourism - however US side of falls ... let me put it nicely.... may benefit from some improvements in basic services, like restroom availability....

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

Besides D8 and WW, I wonder if Condor couldn't propose flights to BUF in place of or in parallel to YYZ they are now serving?

The article said the most likely and best suited aircraft would be in the 150 to 180 seat range. None of DE's planes that can reach BUF have anywhere near that number, (the smallest being 233 seats), so doubtful. FI on the other hand is a possibility as well, because they have planes that are the right size for the market.

Good to see so much news about TATL service come out in the past week, looks like big things are coming in the next year!

I'd be happy with it, easier to reach BUF by car for me over JFK coming from the Finger Lakes region.

Midwestindy wrote:

maximairways wrote:

jumbojet wrote:

The first airline that came to my mind, JetBlue. This seems to be the perfect route for them to start TATL service. obviously, there would be very little feed on the BUF end of things. An A321 or a B737 would be the perfect aircraft. I can see DL having a go at BUF TATL. Best bet would be either Norwegian or Wow Air.

Why do you say there would be very little feed? Buffalo isn't a tiny city, the metro population is only slightly smaller than Salt Lake City, Hartford, and New Orleans.

By feed I presume they mean connecting traffic.

that is correct. I mean, is BUF even a hub or a focus city for any airline?

Living in Hamilton area I would look forward to an alternative to Europe from YYZ. Hopefully some healthy direct flights. But alas the CDN dollar needs a little more strength to lure Canadians.

Midwestindy wrote:

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

Besides D8 and WW, I wonder if Condor couldn't propose flights to BUF in place of or in parallel to YYZ they are now serving?

The article said the most likely and best suited aircraft would be in the 150 to 180 seat range. None of DE's planes that can reach BUF have anywhere near that number, (the smallest being 233 seats), so doubtful. FI on the other hand is a possibility as well, because they have planes that are the right size for the market.

Right, I did not read the article and only added my to the others' comments.

AvroLanc wrote:

Living in Hamilton area I would look forward to an alternative to Europe from YYZ. Hopefully some healthy direct flights. But alas the CDN dollar needs a little more strength to lure Canadians.

Flights BUF to the rest of USA have a big tax advantage vs. Canada-USA. Land border crossings are free but air is not.

That same advantage doesn't really hold for USA-Europe vs. Canada-Europe. ITA Matrix gives examples of taxes/fees JKF-CDG-JFK vs. YYZ-CDG-YYZ:

total $125.66 for JFK-CDG-JFK

US International Departure Tax (US)
$18.00
US September 11th Security Fee (AY)
$5.60
US Passenger Facility Charge (XF)
$4.50
France Passenger Service Charge International (QX)
$33.10
France Civil Aviation Tax Domestic And International (FR)
$9.60
France Airport Tax Domestic And International (FR)
$15.10
France Air Passenger Solidarity Tax (IZ)
$5.30
USDA APHIS Fee (XA)
$3.96
US Immigration Fee (XY)
$7.00
US Customs Fee (YC)
$5.50
US International Arrival Tax (US)
$18.00


YYZ-CDG-YYZ (currency $US), $106.20

Toronto Airport Improvement Fee (SQ)
$19.90
Canadian Harmonized Sales Tax (ON) (RC)
$2.60
Canadian Air Travelers Security Charge (CA)
$20.60
France Passenger Service Charge International (QX)
$33.10
France Civil Aviation Tax Domestic And International (FR)
$9.60
France Airport Tax Domestic And International (FR)
$15.10
France Air Passenger Solidarity Tax (IZ)
$5.30

YYZ is a pretty competitive TATL market. I don't see much point in Canadians driving from Toronto or Hamilton to BUF for TATL flights; yes, some routes/date will be cheaper NYC/BOS vs. YYZ, I'm sure.

[quoteOne factor that one must also consider is the weather, BUF is smack in the middle of lake effect country, and some carriers might shy away for that reason alone unless they were only considering seasonal summer routes.][/quote]

BUF has experienced little downtime and rarely closes during the winter. They have an excellent snow removal process and is probably one of the best in the country. In fact snow removal symposiums are held at BUF quite often. Granted, lake effect snow is more intense than regular snow at times but this causes more problems in getting to the airport than flying out. I'm not saying cancellations don't happen, but they happen less often than you think.

Transatlantic flights would not only be attractive to Canadians, but the Rochester and Syracuse areas as well not to mention Northwestern PA so there is a relatively large catchment area.

Time will tell.

Taxes are one thing, but look at airport costs!

If D8 can do BUF on the MAX8, I would guess BUF to be on the short list for Norwegian.

Being from BUF, I can see TATL being a possibility with Solar City about to open. Amazon is opening up a sorting facility so I can see the cargo side of things also expanding soon. Or at least upgauging some aircraft.

Between this and news of other non-hub airports in the US getting, or trying to get, a transatlantic flight... it seems all of these airports are now on the verge of being awarded flights to Europe.

It is practically an Oprah show now. "Transatlantic for you, and transatlantic for you, and transatlantic for you..."

kjeld0d wrote:

Have they talked to Baltia?

Right after Air Azul/Jet America

As to Canadian customers, let us not forget the potential hassles of entering the USA, additional travel times including USA border processing, limited frequency (especially if things go wrong), as well as fluctuations in USA/Canadian exchange rates that may be unfavorable that could limit opportunities to TATL at BUF. For USA side customers, it may still be cheaper in terms of time and money to connect to EWR or JFK for the TATL part of the flight, unless it is a ULCC like Norwegian.

kavok wrote:

Between this and news of other non-hub airports in the US getting, or trying to get, a transatlantic flight... it seems all of these airports are now on the verge of being awarded flights to Europe.

It is practically an Oprah show now. "Transatlantic for you, and transatlantic for you, and transatlantic for you..."

My thoughts exactly.

RL757PVD wrote:

Taxes are one thing, but look at airport costs!

I can look at airport costs per enplaned passenger and recognize that carriers go where the passengers are. Some U.S.. airports with highest costs also have the highest international passenger counts: EWR, JFK, MIA, SFO.

https://dwuconsulting.com/airport-finan ... -passenger

Key point:

But Hartford’s Bradley landed Aer Lingus with an incentive package — up to $9 million in revenue guarantees over two years offered by the State of Connecticut — along with a $3.6 million marketing program over the next three years.

Vanecek says New York offers no similar incentives. Neither does any local government like Erie County. As a result, competing against such incentives proves difficult for the NFTA when international carriers explore new U.S. airports.

“If I’m looking at Bradley and they throw $9 million at me, it’s a no-brainer,” he acknowledged. “It’s difficult to operate under those conditions.”

[quote="MIflyer12"][/quote]

Its old data now but you can see how quickly these costs add up...

https://torontopearson.com/uploadedFile ... 20Fees.pdf

It would surprise me to see Buffalo to Europe. I don't think Buffalo has the business community that PIT or PVD have. It's close, and maybe, but I'm not quite convinced.

ltbewr wrote:

As to Canadian customers, let us not forget the potential hassles of entering the USA, additional travel times including USA border processing, limited frequency (especially if things go wrong), as well as fluctuations in USA/Canadian exchange rates that may be unfavorable that could limit opportunities to TATL at BUF.

Canadians have absolutely no problem coming down in masses to invade our local shopping malls, with the heavy difference in clothing tax between the two countries. Other than the small wait times one may encounter at bridge crossings, it is hardly a hassle to cross between the US and Canada in the Western New York region. Crossing the border is in fact a very regular thing for people who live in this area around New York and Ontario.

The parking lot at SYR is always crammed with cars with Ontario and Quebec plates so a lot do bother making the border crossing. Same goes at the Syracuse Amtrak station. At least on Interstate 81 the crossing, which I make several times per year, takes 10 minutes at most on most days. It can take a lot longer on holidays though but generally it's pretty quick.

SYR has been talking to a bunch of carriers lately as well trying to land a TATL route.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/busin ... 47973.html

http://www.independent.ie/business/in-t ... 03960.html

Back when WN had their BUF-PHX non stops, I would fly a few times a year, and it was a decent amount Canadians on board.

737MAX/A321LR seems to be the most likely play. Or even an old 757.

I hope Buffalo can get translantic service one day, Buffalo is such an amazing destination and people take it for granit.

airzona11 wrote:

Back when WN had their BUF-PHX non stops, I would fly a few times a year, and it was a decent amount Canadians on board.

737MAX/A321LR seems to be the most likely play. Or even an old 757.

They still fly BUF-PHX

Right now, it is cheaper to fly to Europe from Toronto than Buffalo. The current exchange rate helps, but normally flights from the United States to International destinations are not cheaper than from Canada. In fact, when checking fares on a search engine for BUF to LHR, a popup suggesting YYZ showed cheaper fares! That is probably why Buffalo as a catchment for Toronto area for international flights has never really caught on.

Certainly, (for tax reasons), it is far cheaper to fly to the US from Buffalo than Canada ... but that's about it. The drive down the QEW from Toronto to Buffalo can be a gamble at times, and the Customs lines are often announced at exceeding 90 minutes ... but, local Buffalo hotels are now selling a great product. Get there the day before, buy one night in a hotel, get vacation parking at a reduced rate and take the hotel bus to the airport. When you consider that airport parking at Toronto is $175 a week (I'm not kidding), a traveler can save on more than just airfare.

There are a lot of Ontario licence plates at KBUF and in local retail establishments. Cheaper prices, perhaps. But ... remember that almost a million Canadians live closer to KBUF than CYYZ.

"Longtime local residents surely recall the days when charter flights to Europe often arrived and departed from Niagara Falls."

http://www.niagara-gazette.com/opinion/glynn-falls-airport-left-out-of-overseas-flight-talks/article_e21c814b-146c-589e-81fe-87b4c889b5e0.html


Anyone have any details about these flights?

maximairways wrote:

A fairly comprehensive article about BUF's attempts to bring in transatlantic service, having met with 43 different airlines in the last 2 years.

They sound fairly optimistic it will happen.

http://buffalonews.com/2017/08/05/buffa ... c-flights/

It's taken them 2 years and 43 different airlines to sound optimistic!

I think people read into things to much, the airport will probably say the same by the time they get to their 50th airline.

And having met 43 different airlines sounds a bit far fetched in my opinion.

Airlines may respond to airports requests for new routes but as long as the airlines expenses are paid for as in hotels, traveling costs, etc plus a free lunch or two there probably not going to refuse but as proven by BUF after 43 meetings it doesn't always amount to anything.

Sounds more like airport administration went to one of those aviation planning conferences with the airline speed-dating sessions where they get to spend 10 minutes making pitches to various industry executives. Then the media article summaries to more or less justify that they are "doing something".

Absolutely spot on

jumbojet wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

maximairways wrote:

Why do you say there would be very little feed? Buffalo isn't a tiny city, the metro population is only slightly smaller than Salt Lake City, Hartford, and New Orleans.

By feed I presume they mean connecting traffic.

that is correct. I mean, is BUF even a hub or a focus city for any airline?

BUF is not a hub or focus city for any airline and I highly doubt there is much (if any) connecting traffic.

cvgComair wrote:

jumbojet wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

By feed I presume they mean connecting traffic.

that is correct. I mean, is BUF even a hub or a focus city for any airline?

BUF is not a hub or focus city for any airline and I highly doubt there is much (if any) connecting traffic.

BNIA / Buffalo would have to be the end destination for passengers and not a hub where people would pick up connecting flights.

They would have to sell that BNIA is about a 90 minute drive to Toronto and 20 minutes from Niagara Falls. That seems crazy right?

But Seattle Airport has Emirates service with has bus service to Vancouver, Canada. The bus service is 156 miles, 3 hours+ bus ride, and a US / Canada boarder in between.

So it is possible to sell an airline on that idea and BNIA already has that bus service to Toronto Niagara falls. So it wouldnt be something new they would have to add.

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

So it is possible to sell an airline on that idea and BNIA already has that bus service to Toronto Niagara falls. So it wouldnt be something new they would have to add.

I can't think of an airline that has the rights into BUF that does not already have the rights into YYZ. So, I don't think it would be a matter of "selling" an airline on the idea of a bus between the two markets. (Emirates sells YVR through SEA as an effort to capture both markets).

So that leaves "selling" the idea to a Toronto area passenger to take transportation through BUF. And ... as BUF is presently more expensive, and far far less convenient, that would be a tough sell. Presently, the only market cheaper out of BUF than YYZ, is domestic American flights, as there are fewer taxes.

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

cvgComair wrote:

jumbojet wrote:

that is correct. I mean, is BUF even a hub or a focus city for any airline?

BUF is not a hub or focus city for any airline and I highly doubt there is much (if any) connecting traffic.

BNIA / Buffalo would have to be the end destination for passengers and not a hub where people would pick up connecting flights.

They would have to sell that BNIA is about a 90 minute drive to Toronto and 20 minutes from Niagara Falls. That seems crazy right?

But Seattle Airport has Emirates service with has bus service to Vancouver, Canada. The bus service is 156 miles, 3 hours+ bus ride, and a US / Canada boarder in between.

So it is possible to sell an airline on that idea and BNIA already has that bus service to Toronto Niagara falls. So it wouldnt be something new they would have to add.

90 mins is not so bad compared to what Norwegian does between NY and SWF. When I went up to SWF it took 120 minutes so I could see BUF being used as a secondary airport to Toronto.

The first problem here is that YYZ has TATL fares that are lower (and in most cases, much lower) than the USA in general. So not only would BUF goincomplete with YYZ in terms of capture area, but it would also compete with what is almost certainly a much higher TATL fare at BUF compared to significantly lower fares at YYZ.

The second problem is that you can fly direct from many locations in YYZ. So unless the destination was the location where the proposed BUF TATL service would go to, why would you fly BUF-EU-XXX when you can drive to YYZ and fly direct?

Given the close proximity to YYZ, BUF is really at a disadvantage in getting TATL service compared to other midsize markets of similar size.

Could be a perfect fit as a FI B737MAX destination.

flyPIT wrote:

"Longtime local residents surely recall the days when charter flights to Europe often arrived and departed from Niagara Falls."

http://www.niagara-gazette.com/opinion/glynn-falls-airport-left-out-of-overseas-flight-talks/article_e21c814b-146c-589e-81fe-87b4c889b5e0.html
Anyone have any details about these flights?

Reaching back into my memory here: I'm originally from Rochester. Around 1980-1981, my piano teacher's assistant told me that she took a charter flight from IAG to Europe. I want to say it was her honeymoon, but I'm not sure. She said she flew on a KLM DC-8.

If there's an Airliners.netter in Niagara Falls, NY who wants to go to the public library and pull the files on IAG, that's one place one might find more detail.

Jim

If a TATL flight ever does come to fruition at BUF, I would say Norwegian, Icelandair and WOW Air are the 3 airlines most likely to start it.

787fan8 wrote:

If a TATL flight ever does come to fruition at BUF, I would say Norwegian, Icelandair and WOW Air are the 3 airlines most likely to start it.

Yeah, I can see those airlines and maybe Condor.

Like someone mentioned earlier .....They made a good point, Emirates or other major carriers wont ditch Toronto Airport for BNIA. It would have to be an airline that currently doesnt fly to Toronto and wants to get into the Toronto market without breaking the bank.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 08233.html

I feel like Buffalo / BNIA missed out on this one ..... it would've been a nice addition! But once again, new routes going to airports that are continuing to grow. In the original Buffalo news article, Iceland was specifically mentioned too.

But maybe BNIA just needs more flights to prove it can handle more passengers. In 2006 or 2007 (i think) BNIA hit 5.5 million passengers and showed growth before the mergers.

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/wow-air-expands-across-us-offering-four-new-midwest-destinations-300508233.html

I feel like Buffalo / BNIA missed out on this one ..... it would've been a nice addition! But once again, new routes going to airports that are continuing to grow. In the original Buffalo news article, Iceland was specifically mentioned too.

But maybe BNIA just needs more flights to prove it can handle more passengers. In 2006 or 2007 (i think) BNIA hit 5.5 million passengers and showed growth before the mergers.

Could see FI since BUF is in MAX range.

I see them being able to land WOW or Norwegian less then daily service. Its in narrow body range , all they need to do is offer an incentive.