There you go zeke. You found the cause. It is PM's fault. Case closed.

Varsity1 wrote:

Exhausted crews get sloppy. Fatigue is real.

Exhausted crews yes. Poorly trained crews do as well. There's a reason many get the hell out of there as soon as they can get a better job.

BravoOne wrote:

787Driver wrote:

BravoOne wrote:

Poorly trained crews don't remember that you need to push the power up yourself after touchdown as "TOGA after touchdown" is a completely different animal. WE have all learned something valuable from this accident as it could have been much worse.

I doubt poor training is the cause. As mentioned above, Emirates pilots are working very hard and working long hours both east and west. Even the best pilots make mistakes if they are exhausted.

Well 8 seconds passed between pushing the TOGA switch and manually pushing the power forward, I would say that is indicative of a pilot who did not know that TOGA after TD does not work. Are you qualified on the 787 or 777 BTW? I think EK has a lot of great talented pilots but if you are not trained properly, bad stuff happens. Long hours on duty cannot be blamed for everything that goes wrong these days. How long had these pilots been on duty? If you are a 787 pilot, which I doubt, you must know the significance of what you have just said? Clueless.

Does it emit a warning sound if it is pushed when it is inoperative?

b747400erf wrote:

If you press TOGA twice the throttles advance to full automatically in the 777 the fatigued pilots returning from all night flying to India and back having no relief crew spent 8 seconds on that. Blaming them is unfair but EK are never going to get the blame, pin it on the pilots and quietly change that route so you have a relief pilot finally but make no mention of that in public.

The crew had deadheaded to India 2 days before operating this flight....... I think we had covered that in the initital thread in detail already, fatigue is not the issue here,
training relating to TOGA after touchdown seems the primary subject. The report really tells us nothing new that we have not already covered on this platform in detail, except tp confirm that the AC was free of techies.

As Bravo1 already hinted in his posts, we are back to a training and knowledge issue of what TOGA does once the mains have hit terra firma, and until this incident, what was a very little known fact among many triple skippers.... and not just at EK.

RickNRoll wrote:

BravoOne wrote:

787Driver wrote:

I doubt poor training is the cause. As mentioned above, Emirates pilots are working very hard and working long hours both east and west. Even the best pilots make mistakes if they are exhausted.

Well 8 seconds passed between pushing the TOGA switch and manually pushing the power forward, I would say that is indicative of a pilot who did not know that TOGA after TD does not work. Are you qualified on the 787 or 777 BTW? I think EK has a lot of great talented pilots but if you are not trained properly, bad stuff happens. Long hours on duty cannot be blamed for everything that goes wrong these days. How long had these pilots been on duty? If you are a 787 pilot, which I doubt, you must know the significance of what you have just said? Clueless.

Does it emit a warning sound if it is pushed when it is inoperative?

No

Why is there this ambiguity about automation on airplanes? Perhaps not everywhere but somewhere. IMO something should be automatic or not, or clearly indicated when the automatic is on or off. Why does this TOGA switch does not clearly indicate when it is "armed" and when it is off? I suppose it exists to reduce the workload when in a dangerous situation. How does it do that when you have to train to know when the function exist and when it does not exists? Why is it not lightened when armed or beeping when pushed and off? What anyway is the rationale for TOGA being off when the MLG has touched down, is there never a situation that an airplane has to go around after touch down?
I am just a private pilot, no automation at all on the birds I fly.

mjoelnir wrote:

What anyway is the rationale for TOGA being off when the MLG has touched down

Regardless of the rationale, it's better to have it available than not!

My only experience of anything like this was on board an Etihad A346 landing at Heathrow on 09L. The main gear had touched down and before the nose was down the engines were spooling up again and a couple of seconds later we leaped back off the runway and went around.

dtw2hyd wrote:

There you go zeke. You found the cause. It is PM's fault. Case closed.

I never said anything about who was to blame I pointed out the differances between the manuals which was previously claimed as not existing.

zeke wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

There you go zeke. You found the cause. It is PM's fault. Case closed.

I never said anything about who was to blame I pointed out the differances between the manuals which was previously claimed as not existing.

You haven't blamed anyone zeke. After 4 years of intense investigation, GCAA will find fault with one of the two things. It is either PM or contaminated fuel. One expat and another fuel supplied by a foreign country. Fits their never our fault motto. They are not going find fault with a native PF, do they? PF is off-limits.

dtw2hyd wrote:

zeke wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

There you go zeke. You found the cause. It is PM's fault. Case closed.

I never said anything about who was to blame I pointed out the differances between the manuals which was previously claimed as not existing.

You haven't blamed anyone zeke. After 4 years of intense investigation, GCAA will find fault with one of the two things. It is either PM or contaminated fuel. One expat and another fuel supplied by a foreign country. Fits their never our fault motto. They are not going find fault with a native PF, do they? PF is off-limits.

How about we wait and see what the final verdict is and then read it and pass judgement? Oh right, there's a big conspiracy....