dubaiamman243
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GCAA: No mechanical issues before EK521 crash.

Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:11 am

In a new statement issued by the UAE Civil Aviation Authority, GCAA, it has been stated that the B777 that operated EK521 in August last year, has no mechanical issues prior to the flight time and before landing.

Investigators are currently working to determine and analyze the human performance factors that influence flight crew actions during the incident.

"“At approximately 0837:38 UTC, the Aircraft impacted the runway during an attempted go-around at Dubai International Airport. The Aircraft sustained substantial structural damage as a result of the impact and its movement along the runway and was eventually destroyed by fire. Twenty-one passengers, one flight crewmember, and four cabin crewmembers sustained minor injuries. Four cabin crewmembers sustained serious injuries. Approximately nine minutes after the aircraft came to rest, a firefighter was fatally injured as a result of the explosion of the center wing fuel tank,” the statement said."

Emirates is currently waiting for the final report which is expected by year-end.

Source: http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/emergencie ... -1.2069599

I guess its a human factor error.
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cedarjet
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Re: GCAA: No mechanical issues before EK521 crash.

Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:01 pm

Not applying power for a go-around, and raising the gear without a sustained vertical speed, qualifies as human error, yes
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kiowa
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Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:53 pm

Looks like the fingers are starting to point at the Emirate pilots.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... sh-landing
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:55 pm

Hasn't this been known for quite some time now? Maybe I've just thought this since the accident occurred.
Last edited by ikolkyo on Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:04 pm

I've said this from day 1...
When wasn't America great?


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Antarius
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:30 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Hasn't this been known for quite some time now? Maybe I've just thought this since the accident occurred.


I believe it was heavily speculated, but not official. The odds of dual engine flameout are basically zero, so the most likely speculated culprit was crew action.
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727LOVER
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:33 pm

I don't even remember this...are their a.net pics?
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Antarius
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:37 pm

727LOVER wrote:
I don't even remember this...are their a.net pics?


This was the EK flight that crashed at DXB on landing. The aircraft touched down way long on the runway and then seemed to initiate a go around. The wheels seems to have been retracted before establishing positive rate and the aircraft dropped and crashed on the runway

Image
Image
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Varsity1
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:40 pm

Exhausted crews get sloppy. Fatigue is real.
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BravoOne
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:51 pm

Poorly trained crews don't remember that you need to push the power up yourself after touchdown as "TOGA after touchdown" is a completely different animal. WE have all learned something valuable from this accident as it could have been much worse.
 
787Driver
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:58 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Poorly trained crews don't remember that you need to push the power up yourself after touchdown as "TOGA after touchdown" is a completely different animal. WE have all learned something valuable from this accident as it could have been much worse.

I doubt poor training is the cause. As mentioned above, Emirates pilots are working very hard and working long hours both east and west. Even the best pilots make mistakes if they are exhausted.
 
Antarius
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:03 pm

787Driver wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Poorly trained crews don't remember that you need to push the power up yourself after touchdown as "TOGA after touchdown" is a completely different animal. WE have all learned something valuable from this accident as it could have been much worse.

I doubt poor training is the cause. As mentioned above, Emirates pilots are working very hard and working long hours both east and west. Even the best pilots make mistakes if they are exhausted.


It could be a combination of factors. There are plenty of examples of fatigue. That said, we saw the Asiana 777 crash at SFO, where 3 pilots (two rather experienced) didn't understand how the auto throttle worked.

I am sure the EK training process will be scrutinized to see if there is anything lacking there.
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diverdave
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:13 pm

Very sad - can you imagine the firefighters working in 118 degree F heat?
 
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litz
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:20 pm

IIRC, one of the first responders perished fighting that fire.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:06 pm

787Driver wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Poorly trained crews don't remember that you need to push the power up yourself after touchdown as "TOGA after touchdown" is a completely different animal. WE have all learned something valuable from this accident as it could have been much worse.

I doubt poor training is the cause. As mentioned above, Emirates pilots are working very hard and working long hours both east and west. Even the best pilots make mistakes if they are exhausted.


Well 8 seconds passed between pushing the TOGA switch and manually pushing the power forward, I would say that is indicative of a pilot who did not know that TOGA after TD does not work. Are you qualified on the 787 or 777 BTW? I think EK has a lot of great talented pilots but if you are not trained properly, bad stuff happens. Long hours on duty cannot be blamed for everything that goes wrong these days. How long had these pilots been on duty? If you are a 787 pilot, which I doubt, you must know the significance of what you have just said? Clueless.
 
sgbroimp
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:13 pm

....and throw in the fact that the systems in today's aircraft designed to help are overwhelming some of the folks operating them, say when they are tired or the weather is throwing them all over the sky. One good pilot I respect and his colleagues at a major US trunk are asking to have some of the auto stuff removed. There is too much temptation to watch the system do its thing and not enough temptation to take the bloody controls and fly the bird.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:30 pm

Everyone in the industry (operationally) is aware of the hazards associated with automation. The new EET training is just the tip of the iceberg regarding a more robust training curriculum. Better late than never.
 
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OA940
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:42 pm

Didn't we know this already from like a week after the crash?
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BravoOne
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:19 pm

OA940 wrote:
Didn't we know this already from like a week after the crash?


Well I'm not sure what we didn't know a week after the crash but apparently the OP didn't know this, thus he posted his thoughts. I would be surprised if we ever saw a complete unbiased report regarding this accident but I ask you to look at your watch and think, THUD and then count down 8 seconds and think about what was happening before the pilot pushed up the power and then a couple of seconds or more while the engines spooled back up. This pilot wasn't asleep, and he did not have his hands on the thrust levers according to those in the know. What could go wrong, did go wrong. In his defense I will bet that he never received any "hands on training" for this scenario, i.e., it was not part of his 777 training curriculum.
 
787Driver
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:35 pm

BravoOne wrote:
787Driver wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Poorly trained crews don't remember that you need to push the power up yourself after touchdown as "TOGA after touchdown" is a completely different animal. WE have all learned something valuable from this accident as it could have been much worse.

I doubt poor training is the cause. As mentioned above, Emirates pilots are working very hard and working long hours both east and west. Even the best pilots make mistakes if they are exhausted.


Well 8 seconds passed between pushing the TOGA switch and manually pushing the power forward, I would say that is indicative of a pilot who did not know that TOGA after TD does not work. Are you qualified on the 787 or 777 BTW? I think EK has a lot of great talented pilots but if you are not trained properly, bad stuff happens. Long hours on duty cannot be blamed for everything that goes wrong these days. How long had these pilots been on duty? If you are a 787 pilot, which I doubt, you must know the significance of what you have just said? Clueless.


Qualified on both as it's a common type rating ;-) But flying the 787. Why the need for the insult? I was just sharing my opinion.
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:35 pm

OA940 wrote:
Didn't we know this already from like a week after the crash?


It was not confirmed just speculated.

Many people thought the UAE authorities would mess with the investigation and ensure they did everything to make EK look like it's not at fault, but so far they haven't done that.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:39 pm

sgbroimp wrote:
....and throw in the fact that the systems in today's aircraft designed to help are overwhelming some of the folks operating them, say when they are tired or the weather is throwing them all over the sky. One good pilot I respect and his colleagues at a major US trunk are asking to have some of the auto stuff removed. There is too much temptation to watch the system do its thing and not enough temptation to take the bloody controls and fly the bird.


Thats one of the reasons WN left some automated systems off on their NG Airframes. They noted that they "Wanted their pilots to fly the plane, not babysit" Flying it meant in an emergency the pilots respond better. They were right.
 
coolian2
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:10 pm

rbavfan wrote:
sgbroimp wrote:
....and throw in the fact that the systems in today's aircraft designed to help are overwhelming some of the folks operating them, say when they are tired or the weather is throwing them all over the sky. One good pilot I respect and his colleagues at a major US trunk are asking to have some of the auto stuff removed. There is too much temptation to watch the system do its thing and not enough temptation to take the bloody controls and fly the bird.


Thats one of the reasons WN left some automated systems off on their NG Airframes. They noted that they "Wanted their pilots to fly the plane, not babysit" Flying it meant in an emergency the pilots respond better. They were right.

Yep.

Also "I'm the 737 on pump five, fill it up and tow it back onto the airport if you can"
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hivue
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:32 pm

rbavfan wrote:
They noted that they "Wanted their pilots to fly the plane, not babysit"


Do have a reference for that quote?
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OA940
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:33 pm

PerfectGriffin wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Didn't we know this already from like a week after the crash?


It was not confirmed just speculated.

Many people thought the UAE authorities would mess with the investigation and ensure they did everything to make EK look like it's not at fault, but so far they haven't done that.


So far... ;)
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Antarius
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:41 pm

OA940 wrote:
PerfectGriffin wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Didn't we know this already from like a week after the crash?


It was not confirmed just speculated.

Many people thought the UAE authorities would mess with the investigation and ensure they did everything to make EK look like it's not at fault, but so far they haven't done that.


So far... ;)


be careful what you wish for. Next it might become the fault of Qatar :lol:
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767333ER
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:58 pm

rbavfan wrote:
sgbroimp wrote:
....and throw in the fact that the systems in today's aircraft designed to help are overwhelming some of the folks operating them, say when they are tired or the weather is throwing them all over the sky. One good pilot I respect and his colleagues at a major US trunk are asking to have some of the auto stuff removed. There is too much temptation to watch the system do its thing and not enough temptation to take the bloody controls and fly the bird.


Thats one of the reasons WN left some automated systems off on their NG Airframes. They noted that they "Wanted their pilots to fly the plane, not babysit" Flying it meant in an emergency the pilots respond better. They were right.

What sort if automation did they opt out of other than auto land?
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AWACSooner
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:16 pm

If this were EgyptAir, the story would be different...
 
b747400erf
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:25 pm

PerfectGriffin wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Didn't we know this already from like a week after the crash?


It was not confirmed just speculated.

Many people thought the UAE authorities would mess with the investigation and ensure they did everything to make EK look like it's not at fault, but so far they haven't done that.


By blaming the pilots not the fatigue inducing long sector that route used to have they are making EK look not at fault.
 
b747400erf
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:26 pm

767333ER wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
sgbroimp wrote:
....and throw in the fact that the systems in today's aircraft designed to help are overwhelming some of the folks operating them, say when they are tired or the weather is throwing them all over the sky. One good pilot I respect and his colleagues at a major US trunk are asking to have some of the auto stuff removed. There is too much temptation to watch the system do its thing and not enough temptation to take the bloody controls and fly the bird.


Thats one of the reasons WN left some automated systems off on their NG Airframes. They noted that they "Wanted their pilots to fly the plane, not babysit" Flying it meant in an emergency the pilots respond better. They were right.

What sort if automation did they opt out of other than auto land?


Auto-Throttle.
 
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TOGA10
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:34 pm

b747400erf wrote:
767333ER wrote:
rbavfan wrote:

Thats one of the reasons WN left some automated systems off on their NG Airframes. They noted that they "Wanted their pilots to fly the plane, not babysit" Flying it meant in an emergency the pilots respond better. They were right.

What sort if automation did they opt out of other than auto land?


Auto-Throttle.

Interesting one. I guess this works both ways. You do get a better feel for what the aircraft is doing and it raises your system awareness, but on the other hand it increases workload for both the PF and PM/PNF, which in in turn could lead to a more fatiguiging environment. Not sure which one is better. It depends heavily on the operation, WN's operation is quite different from EK's in term of sector lengths and amount of approaches you make every day/week.
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JannEejit
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:34 pm

What became of the airframe, was it broken up on site or lying discarded in a corner of the airfield ?
 
Antarius
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:39 pm

JannEejit wrote:
What became of the airframe, was it broken up on site or lying discarded in a corner of the airfield ?


It was removed in parts.

This site has some pictures http://www.chinaaviationdaily.com/news/54/54957.html
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SuperSix2
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:13 pm

This may be a stupid question but the port engine looks pretty much intact, could it be used again elsewhere?
 
bennett123
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:16 pm

Would any parts be re used, (wing and enginee etc).

Or would they just scrap it.
 
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caoimhin
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:11 am

787Driver wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
787Driver wrote:
I doubt poor training is the cause. As mentioned above, Emirates pilots are working very hard and working long hours both east and west. Even the best pilots make mistakes if they are exhausted.


Well 8 seconds passed between pushing the TOGA switch and manually pushing the power forward, I would say that is indicative of a pilot who did not know that TOGA after TD does not work. Are you qualified on the 787 or 777 BTW? I think EK has a lot of great talented pilots but if you are not trained properly, bad stuff happens. Long hours on duty cannot be blamed for everything that goes wrong these days. How long had these pilots been on duty? If you are a 787 pilot, which I doubt, you must know the significance of what you have just said? Clueless.


Qualified on both as it's a common type rating ;-) But flying the 787. Why the need for the insult? I was just sharing my opinion.


Just to clarify, TOGA thrust will do nothing when activated on the ground? The thrust levers must be advanced manually? This makes nothing but sense, but it seems like an odd oversight.
 
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77west
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:55 am

bennett123 wrote:
Would any parts be re used, (wing and enginee etc).

Or would they just scrap it.


Highly unlikely, besides, they probably could not get it back until the investigators release it. The parts paper trail and potential liability down the road would be a nightmare.
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ltbewr
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Re: GCAA: No mechanical issues before EK521 crash.

Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:07 am

Weren't wind and other conditions a possible factor, such that the PIC made a miscalculation of their landing position, speed, ect. ?
 
dubaiamman243
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Re: GCAA: No mechanical issues before EK521 crash.

Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:34 am

The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
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767333ER
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:21 am

b747400erf wrote:
767333ER wrote:
rbavfan wrote:

Thats one of the reasons WN left some automated systems off on their NG Airframes. They noted that they "Wanted their pilots to fly the plane, not babysit" Flying it meant in an emergency the pilots respond better. They were right.

What sort if automation did they opt out of other than auto land?


Auto-Throttle.

They use auto throttle nowadays as it saves a lot of money the long run and only didn't in the past for commonality's sake. I'm sure though how the need to fiddle manually with the thrust levers during the entire flight makes one a better pilot. All I see is the extra fatigue it insidiously infuses into the operation.
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Ugly51
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Re: GCAA: No mechanical issues before EK521 crash.

Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:24 am

PIC the Captain for the flight is no longer with Emirates so I have been told. The First Officer returned to QANTAS, I am not sure if he is still there or not. This accident could have been so much worse. A very well trained Cabin crew really makes a difference.
 
787Driver
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:42 am

caoimhin wrote:
787Driver wrote:
BravoOne wrote:

Well 8 seconds passed between pushing the TOGA switch and manually pushing the power forward, I would say that is indicative of a pilot who did not know that TOGA after TD does not work. Are you qualified on the 787 or 777 BTW? I think EK has a lot of great talented pilots but if you are not trained properly, bad stuff happens. Long hours on duty cannot be blamed for everything that goes wrong these days. How long had these pilots been on duty? If you are a 787 pilot, which I doubt, you must know the significance of what you have just said? Clueless.


Qualified on both as it's a common type rating ;-) But flying the 787. Why the need for the insult? I was just sharing my opinion.


Just to clarify, TOGA thrust will do nothing when activated on the ground? The thrust levers must be advanced manually? This makes nothing but sense, but it seems like an odd oversight.


It'll work on takeoff, but not, as described in this incident in case you want to go around after you touch down. They recently added a callout in my company when going around, which is "thrust" to make the pilots verify that you have the toga thrust when going around.

So in case of go around: "go around", "thrust", "flaps 20"..
 
b747400erf
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Re: GCAA: No mechanical issues before EK521 crash.

Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:53 am

If you press TOGA twice the throttles advance to full automatically in the 777 the fatigued pilots returning from all night flying to India and back having no relief crew spent 8 seconds on that. Blaming them is unfair but EK are never going to get the blame, pin it on the pilots and quietly change that route so you have a relief pilot finally but make no mention of that in public.
 
WIederling
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Re: Emirates 777 crash not mechanical

Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:35 am

BravoOne wrote:
TOGA after TD does not work.


As a Noob:

Any good design reasoning to have it that way?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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zeke
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Re: GCAA: No mechanical issues before EK521 crash.

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:09 am

The captain had been flagged twice before for long landings, it is speculation the reason for going around was another long landing. However to put this in perspective the wheels were on the ground with around 3000 m of runway left.

From what I recall back at the time where the EK procedures were posted, they did not have a requirement in the manual to manually move the thrust levers forward. This seemed strange to me as it differed from our manuals.
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BravoOne
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Re: GCAA: No mechanical issues before EK521 crash.

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:25 am

Zeke, that is not really the case here. Do I need to tell you to pull back to rotate? Of course not. You are suppose to have you right hand in this case on the thrust levers and initiate the application of power while pushing the TOGA switch. Pretty simple? The fact that TOGA does not work after TD is an issue that probably was not emphasized during training and the fact that the pilot was relying on automation that did not exist at that moment in time became a dal breaker. Of course had he just flown the airplane instead of relying on this it would have made a big difference.

Pilots have been flying airplane all night, with long duty hours for years. You could have two more pilots on the flight deck ,and the results would have been the same al likelihood. This accident was probably the result of inadequate training in the use of automation along wth some missing common sense.

Also EK has equipped their 777's with a automatic call out feature that announces the long landing issue. Doesn't sound as if it added any safety to this landing
 
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zeke
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Re: GCAA: No mechanical issues before EK521 crash.

Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:18 pm

BravoOne wrote:
You are suppose to have you right hand in this case on the thrust levers and initiate the application of power while pushing the TOGA switch.


However that was not in their manuals. It is in our manuals, so is how to rotate.

BravoOne wrote:
Pilots have been flying airplane all night, with long duty hours for years.


As far as I am aware the pilot positioned to TRV the day before. The flight leaves TRV at 10 am, arrives in DXB around 1 pm.

BravoOne wrote:
Also EK has equipped their 777's with a automatic call out feature that announces the long landing issue. Doesn't sound as if it added any safety to this landing


Calling people into the office to explain themselves for a long landing on a 4000+ long runway tells me there is a structural problem with the SMS.
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BravoOne
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Re: GCAA: No mechanical issues before EK521 crash.

Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:15 pm

Zeke we are on the same page. The B777 FCTM cover rotation techniques very well, but is not the subject matter at hand. It was just an example.
 
BravoOne
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Re: GCAA: No mechanical issues before EK521 crash.

Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:56 pm

zeke wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
You are suppose to have you right hand in this case on the thrust levers and initiate the application of power while pushing the TOGA switch.


However that was not in their manuals. It is in our manuals, so is how to rotate.

BravoOne wrote:
Pilots have been flying airplane all night, with long duty hours for years.


As far as I am aware the pilot positioned to TRV the day before. The flight leaves TRV at 10 am, arrives in DXB around 1 pm.

BravoOne wrote:
Also EK has equipped their 777's with a automatic call out feature that announces the long landing issue. Doesn't sound as if it added any safety to this landing


Calling people into the office to explain themselves for a long landing on a 4000+ long runway tells me there is a structural problem with the SMS.



I have to call you on that one as it most certainly is in their manuals.
 
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zeke
Posts: 13634
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: GCAA: No mechanical issues before EK521 crash.

Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:09 am

BravoOne wrote:
I have to call you on that one as it most certainly is in their manuals.


The EK go-around procedure at the time is in the GCAA preliminary report, the last two pages of this link

https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublication ... A6-EMW.pdf

When I compare that to what we have in our manuals, EK has nothing in there to call the modes on the FMA, our manuals state if the Autothrottle FMA status is blank, the PF shall call “Set Thrust” and manually advance the Thrust Levers e.g. “Set Thrust, TO/GA, TO/GA, AP”, the PM shall adjust the thrust levers and call “Thrust Set”, once the required thrust is set.
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