chalupas54 wrote:

The easy answer to Cleveland: Domestic Holes. CLE, much like STL and PIT, was destroyed by dehubbing. Currently, STL and CLE have bounced back. STL much more than anyone else. CLE is focused on restoring its domestic network before focusing elsewhere.

Look, I love Columbus. It's an amazing city. However, if you're pushing this 'millennial' argument, how come STL was just named the best city for millennials in the country? Indianapolis was also very high on the list. Columbus was not in the top 20. Also, in terms of colleges, STL and IND have several major universities based in them. WUSTL (ranked higher than OSU in virtually all sectors), SLU, Butler, IUPUI, etc. EIther way, the Columbus metro area does not support the business traffic of CMH-LHR. I can assure you that the premium cabin would be empty. Also, CMH is in the range of a 757. If DL has not launched CMH-CDG, then we clearly have a problem. Also, New Orleans is NOT a "trendy, hip, millennial" city. Have you ever been? It's old, stagnant economy, high crime, rampant poverty. It has a huge tourist draw, however.

Columbus is not Austin. Austin is a booming tech city with huge corporate presences. Being a state capital does have influence, however, IND is a state capitol as well. STL is the primary airport for both Jefferson City, MO and Springfield, IL. Double whammy. Not to mention, Kansas City, MO is supportive of an STL TATL.


Those old, scurfy Fortune 500 cities, however, have significantly more air service than CMH does.

Let me close with this:

I am not trying to bash Columbus. We just have to be realistic here. The facts are:

1. CMH has pitiful domestic service for a metro of its size. Low frequency, not many non-stops.
2. Very few routes to the West Coast. The ones in place are heavily subsidized. In fact, CMH has revenue guarantees in place for CMH-OAK...and Southwest has cut that route back to seasonal.
3. The Columbus Metro CANNOT support a 787 TATL. There is no business or tourist draw to Greater Columbus that would support a flight.
4. CMH's proximity to other TATL cities proves a conflict. DTW, CVG, PIT all are close by. That drastically cuts into any CMH market draw.
5. CMH is a Delta/WN airport. American/OW has a very small presence at the airport. BA is OW. I also know that many Columbus area companies have contracts with DL and WN.
6. Club Access: No. Where will Premium Cabin passengers wait for their flight? Not in the terminal...

flymco753 wrote:

First of all, if DTW can give BA good incentives, and extra funds to secure this flight, there's no reason that BA wouldn't do it, because I'm pretty sure the incentives offered by IND, CMH, CLE, STL and what have you aren't as good, and I invite y'all to discuss it with me.

klm617 wrote:

Unless you work for BA and are . . . blah blah blah

Midwestindy wrote:

1. This is a meaningless arguement, PIT wasn't even discussed as the five cities being looked at by BA(CMH/CLE/IND/STL/BNA).

PIT already has 3 TATL flights, and the one non-leisure flight, DL PIT-CDG, has continually had its season shrunk because of poor seat utilization. The last TATL numbers showed PIT(29,041) had fewer pax to London than IND(30,732). PIT is less likely than even CMH.

Until they give an estimate (like STL/IND have) of the amount of incentives they will offer you can't possibly make the argument that they are higher.

PIT only gave 500k and 800k to DE and WW, which isn't even close to the incentives to be offered at STL/IND. What makes you think PIT will give BA the 5+ millions of dollars that STL/IND will offer, when they already have DL (who they gave 9 million), and recently have only given WW and DE 500-800k.

chalupas54 wrote:

Also, New Orleans is NOT a "trendy, hip, millennial" city. Have you ever been? It's old, stagnant economy, high crime, rampant poverty.

LAX772LR wrote:

chalupas54 wrote:

Also, New Orleans is NOT a "trendy, hip, millennial" city. Have you ever been? It's old, stagnant economy, high crime, rampant poverty.

..........huh????

New Orleans is often sited (by everyone from Forbes, to Time, to Rolling Stone, to the local papers) as one of best and fastest growing cities in the nation for millennials to live, relocate, and/or start a business.

http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/ ... leans.html
http://wgno.com/2017/06/06/what-makes-n ... llennials/
https://www.forbes.com/pictures/hhkk45l ... 919a083140

Even five seconds worth of research could've shown you this.

Midwestindy wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

chalupas54 wrote:

Also, New Orleans is NOT a "trendy, hip, millennial" city. Have you ever been? It's old, stagnant economy, high crime, rampant poverty.

..........huh????

New Orleans is often sited (by everyone from Forbes, to Time, to Rolling Stone, to the local papers) as one of best and fastest growing cities in the nation for millennials to live, relocate, and/or start a business.

http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/ ... leans.html
http://wgno.com/2017/06/06/what-makes-n ... llennials/
https://www.forbes.com/pictures/hhkk45l ... 919a083140

Even five seconds worth of research could've shown you this.

Peope I'm sorry the millenial argument is a dead end, every city is labeled as millennial, even IND

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyl ... bc9f51666a
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/consume ... ty-n623021
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/22/the-25- ... nials.html
https://www.forbes.com/pictures/fjle45e ... 9025db598d

SCQ83 wrote:

chalupas54 wrote:

As much as I love the Columbus area, CMH is really a non-contender for this. Just because a city is millenial does not at all mean a city can sell premium seats on 787. If anything, it means the contrary. Also, the Columbus metro area is far smaller than STL, and a bit smaller than IND. Not to forget that STL and IND have traffic numbers that completely eclipse CMH. I think another aspect to this is the resurgence of Cleveland. If BA is coming to Ohio, they'll pick CLE. Cleveland has a global economy in healthcare and in petroleum. BP has a major operation in downtown Cleveland. Columbus has a very national economy. As I said for IND, CMH has a ton of domestic holes. CMH does not even have a flight to SFO. There is a heavily subsidized seasonal flight on WN to OAK. If I was in charge of route development at CMH, landing TATL service would be last on my list. Either way, as clearly pointed out by the posters on this forum, if BA is to expand in North America again, it is going to be STL or IND, not CMH or CLE.

Which Cleveland resurgence?

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/ne ... oming.html

Here are the 25-year projections for Ohio's major cities:

Columbus will grow from 2.02 million residents in 2015 to 2.65 million in 2040. That 30.8 percent growth rate is good enough for 30th out of 933 metropolitan areas tracked.

Cincinnati will grow from 2.16 million residents in 2015 to 2.33 million in 2040, a growth rate of 8 percent.

Cleveland will shrink from 2.06 million residents in 2015 to 1.89 million in 2040. That drop of 8.4 percent is the worst projected loss among the country's major metros.

The trend is clear. British Airways and Norwegian are incresingly targeting "millenial" and trendy economies (read that in a broad sense, but I think it is clear what I mean). Anything from New Orleans to Austin or Denver. Old, scurfy Fortune 500 HQ cities are out of the way! And I can't think of a worse example than BP. If CLE hasn't been able to sustain a LHR flight with oil at +$100, how is it going to be able to sustain it in the future with the help of BP?

LAX772LR wrote:

chalupas54 wrote:

Also, New Orleans is NOT a "trendy, hip, millennial" city. Have you ever been? It's old, stagnant economy, high crime, rampant poverty.

..........huh????

New Orleans is often sited (by everyone from Forbes, to Time, to Rolling Stone, to the local papers) as one of best and fastest growing cities in the nation for millennials to live, relocate, and/or start a business.

http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/ ... leans.html
http://wgno.com/2017/06/06/what-makes-n ... llennials/
https://www.forbes.com/pictures/hhkk45l ... 919a083140

Even five seconds worth of research could've shown you this.

chalupas54 wrote:

These are all clickbait.

chalupas54 wrote:

New Orleans Metro is bleeding residents to Houston and Dallas. The only industry thriving in NOLA is tourism, which is exploding.

chalupas54 wrote:

2. Very few routes to the West Coast. The ones in place are heavily subsidized. In fact, CMH has revenue guarantees in place for CMH-OAK...and Southwest has cut that route back to seasonal.
3. The Columbus Metro CANNOT support a 787 TATL. There is no business or tourist draw to Greater Columbus that would support a flight.
4. CMH's proximity to other TATL cities proves a conflict. DTW, CVG, PIT all are close by. That drastically cuts into any CMH market draw.
5. CMH is a Delta/WN airport. American/OW has a very small presence at the airport. BA is OW. I also know that many Columbus area companies have contracts with DL and WN.

chalupas54 wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

chalupas54 wrote:

Also, New Orleans is NOT a "trendy, hip, millennial" city. Have you ever been? It's old, stagnant economy, high crime, rampant poverty.

..........huh????

New Orleans is often sited (by everyone from Forbes, to Time, to Rolling Stone, to the local papers) as one of best and fastest growing cities in the nation for millennials to live, relocate, and/or start a business.

http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/ ... leans.html
http://wgno.com/2017/06/06/what-makes-n ... llennials/
https://www.forbes.com/pictures/hhkk45l ... 919a083140

Even five seconds worth of research could've shown you this.

These are all clickbait. Every city is ranked on these at least once. I have been New Orleans many times. It's a beautiful city. But unfortunately has high crime, a stagnant economy, rampant southern racism, poverty, etc. New Orleans Metro is bleeding residents to Houston and Dallas. The only industry thriving in NOLA is tourism, which is exploding.

klm617 wrote:

chalupas54 wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

..........huh????

New Orleans is often sited (by everyone from Forbes, to Time, to Rolling Stone, to the local papers) as one of best and fastest growing cities in the nation for millennials to live, relocate, and/or start a business.

http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/ ... leans.html
http://wgno.com/2017/06/06/what-makes-n ... llennials/
https://www.forbes.com/pictures/hhkk45l ... 919a083140

Even five seconds worth of research could've shown you this.

These are all clickbait. Every city is ranked on these at least once. I have been New Orleans many times. It's a beautiful city. But unfortunately has high crime, a stagnant economy, rampant southern racism, poverty, etc. New Orleans Metro is bleeding residents to Houston and Dallas. The only industry thriving in NOLA is tourism, which is exploding.

Not to mention a very drug infested region.

ADrum23 wrote:

Ok, clearly this thread is no longer productive. The most likely destinations for BA (and TATL service in general) after BNA would be IND and STL. That's it. End of story. CLE and CMH just don't have the appeal right now. Those three have the strongest economies of the remaining cities that don't have TATL service currently, but are vying for it. My guess is BNA and IND get BA to LHR service this fall and STL gets DL to AMS or CDG sometime within the next two years.

The End.

stl07 wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Ok, clearly this thread is no longer productive. The most likely destinations for BA (and TATL service in general) after BNA would be IND and STL. That's it. End of story. CLE and CMH just don't have the appeal right now. Those three have the strongest economies of the remaining cities that don't have TATL service currently, but are vying for it. My guess is BNA and IND get BA to LHR service this fall and STL gets DL to AMS or CDG sometime within the next two years.

The End.

I agree with you. BTW what makes you think STL won't also get BA like Ind or even Condor to Fra -- why Delta to their Euro hubs

klm617 wrote:

Not to mention a very drug infested region.

ADrum23 wrote:

That's it. End of story. The End.

DeltaRules wrote:

chalupas54 wrote:

2. Very few routes to the West Coast. The ones in place are heavily subsidized. In fact, CMH has revenue guarantees in place for CMH-OAK...and Southwest has cut that route back to seasonal.
3. The Columbus Metro CANNOT support a 787 TATL. There is no business or tourist draw to Greater Columbus that would support a flight.
4. CMH's proximity to other TATL cities proves a conflict. DTW, CVG, PIT all are close by. That drastically cuts into any CMH market draw.
5. CMH is a Delta/WN airport. American/OW has a very small presence at the airport. BA is OW. I also know that many Columbus area companies have contracts with DL and WN.

2) CMH-LAX is operated by two airlines daily. STL-OAK is also reduced temporarily around the same time CMH-OAK is next February; the suggestion I saw was something to do with the fleet.
3) Ignore business for a minute: is there ANY tourist draw which would bring anyone from Europe to ANY of these cities? Ohio Stadium, the Arch, Indianapolis Motor Speedway, and the Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame are the first things which come to mind for each and are all very niche things. The same could be said for PIT (I've honestly got nothing, there) and the very specific Country draw to BNA, yet they both have TATL service (and, in the case of PIT, with three airlines).
4) Proximity should also disqualify CLE (DTW/PIT) and IND (DTW/CVG/ORD), then.
5) You talking customer loyalty or actual stats? AA has more market share at this point than DL does.

ADrum23 wrote:

stl07 wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Ok, clearly this thread is no longer productive. The most likely destinations for BA (and TATL service in general) after BNA would be IND and STL. That's it. End of story. CLE and CMH just don't have the appeal right now. Those three have the strongest economies of the remaining cities that don't have TATL service currently, but are vying for it. My guess is BNA and IND get BA to LHR service this fall and STL gets DL to AMS or CDG sometime within the next two years.

The End.

I agree with you. BTW what makes you think STL won't also get BA like Ind or even Condor to Fra -- why Delta to their Euro hubs

I could be wrong, but it seems most of STL's European business ties come outside of the U.K, hence, why service to AMS or CDG may make more sense there (on either Delta or a Foreign carrier). BNA and IND have more ties to the UK, which is why I believe they are prioritizing London for their entrance into the TATL market.

Yes, Seasonal Condor to Frankfurt could work as well in STL (and BNA for that matter). I'll bet BNA gets seasonal Condor service to Frankfurt after the London flight is announced.

mtbga wrote:

Word has it that BA is about to announce their next A380 and it will be in the U.S.

joeman wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

chalupas54 wrote:

As much as I love the Columbus area, CMH is really a non-contender for this. Just because a city is millenial does not at all mean a city can sell premium seats on 787. If anything, it means the contrary. Also, the Columbus metro area is far smaller than STL, and a bit smaller than IND. Not to forget that STL and IND have traffic numbers that completely eclipse CMH. I think another aspect to this is the resurgence of Cleveland. If BA is coming to Ohio, they'll pick CLE. Cleveland has a global economy in healthcare and in petroleum. BP has a major operation in downtown Cleveland. Columbus has a very national economy. As I said for IND, CMH has a ton of domestic holes. CMH does not even have a flight to SFO. There is a heavily subsidized seasonal flight on WN to OAK. If I was in charge of route development at CMH, landing TATL service would be last on my list. Either way, as clearly pointed out by the posters on this forum, if BA is to expand in North America again, it is going to be STL or IND, not CMH or CLE.

Which Cleveland resurgence?

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/ne ... oming.html

Here are the 25-year projections for Ohio's major cities:

Columbus will grow from 2.02 million residents in 2015 to 2.65 million in 2040. That 30.8 percent growth rate is good enough for 30th out of 933 metropolitan areas tracked.

Cincinnati will grow from 2.16 million residents in 2015 to 2.33 million in 2040, a growth rate of 8 percent.

Cleveland will shrink from 2.06 million residents in 2015 to 1.89 million in 2040. That drop of 8.4 percent is the worst projected loss among the country's major metros.

The trend is clear. British Airways and Norwegian are incresingly targeting "millenial" and trendy economies (read that in a broad sense, but I think it is clear what I mean). Anything from New Orleans to Austin or Denver. Old, scurfy Fortune 500 HQ cities are out of the way! And I can't think of a worse example than BP. If CLE hasn't been able to sustain a LHR flight with oil at +$100, how is it going to be able to sustain it in the future with the help of BP?

Have our CMH friends calculated yet the exact time and date the CLE metro will be extinct?

chalupas54 wrote:

5) No, that's actual knowledge on my part. I have a lot of extended family in the greater Columbus area working in companies such as Cardinal Health, Huntington, and some smaller corps. They exclusively fly DL or WN. I don't believe that AA point for a second, sorry. I have flown through CMH on WN(2014), DL (2015), and AA (2017). The American gate area was dead at 6:30 AM compared to Delta or Southwest.

izbtmnhd wrote:

CLE is an absolute disaster. I mean with it's domestic non-stops to SEA, PDX, SFO, LAS, SAN, LAS, PHX all despite not having a hub or even a real focus city. And it shows that nobody believes in CLE because every domestic airline serves Hopkins sans AS. Clearly the lack of international service has nothing to do with the awful customs facility along with the costs of the airport. The metro just can't support air service even though it's on pace to match the pax count of the final year of the UA hub either this year or next with just O&D. Yes, CLE is on life support!

SCQ83 wrote:

Robert1010 wrote:

Pretty funny but not sure if the metro will be extinct! Just saw the 2016 CSA and much to my surprise CLE was 15th , so there will always be potential , think facilities play a major factor as well!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combine ... tical_area

The trend is interesting nonetheless.

2016 Estimate 2010 Census

CLE: Cleveland-Akron-Canton, OH Combined Statistical Area 3,483,311 3,515,646 −0.92%
CMH: Columbus-Marion-Zanesville, OH Combined Statistical Area 2,443,402 2,308,509 +5.84%

Cleveland is one of the very few (and the largest among them) metro areas in the US that has lost population between 2010 and 2016, which has been overall positive for American demographics and economy. Usually companies do not like to invest in shrinking markets. Btw by comparison some of the metro areas recently announced by BA:

BNA: Nashville-Davidson–Murfreesboro, TN Combined Statistical Area 1,987,778 1,788,434 +11.15%
MSY: New Orleans-Metairie-Hammond, LA-MS Combined Statistical Area 1,501,213 1,413,965 +6.17%

For some reason I cannot find Austin in the list (?).

chalupas54 wrote:

DeltaRules wrote:

chalupas54 wrote:

2. Very few routes to the West Coast. The ones in place are heavily subsidized. In fact, CMH has revenue guarantees in place for CMH-OAK...and Southwest has cut that route back to seasonal.
3. The Columbus Metro CANNOT support a 787 TATL. There is no business or tourist draw to Greater Columbus that would support a flight.
4. CMH's proximity to other TATL cities proves a conflict. DTW, CVG, PIT all are close by. That drastically cuts into any CMH market draw.
5. CMH is a Delta/WN airport. American/OW has a very small presence at the airport. BA is OW. I also know that many Columbus area companies have contracts with DL and WN.

2) CMH-LAX is operated by two airlines daily. STL-OAK is also reduced temporarily around the same time CMH-OAK is next February; the suggestion I saw was something to do with the fleet.
3) Ignore business for a minute: is there ANY tourist draw which would bring anyone from Europe to ANY of these cities? Ohio Stadium, the Arch, Indianapolis Motor Speedway, and the Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame are the first things which come to mind for each and are all very niche things. The same could be said for PIT (I've honestly got nothing, there) and the very specific Country draw to BNA, yet they both have TATL service (and, in the case of PIT, with three airlines).
4) Proximity should also disqualify CLE (DTW/PIT) and IND (DTW/CVG/ORD), then.
5) You talking customer loyalty or actual stats? AA has more market share at this point than DL does.

PSA- done with MSY. Did not mean to open up that can of worms.

Responding-

2) Service to two west coast cities for a city as prosperous as Columbus is really pathetic. The STL part of that is due to fleet constraints. CMH is not from my understanding. Either way, CMH really has a ton of domestic holes. Giving a low cost airline like WN revenue guaruntees to fly to Oakland and not SFO is not a positive sign.
3) Yes actually. St. Louis has the largest tourist draw of the three. Many British tour companies begin and end their tours in St. Louis. St. Louis, given its problems, is still a very popular tourist destination. St. Louis has some incredible museums as well as architecture. The Indianapolis 500 is an extremely popular global sporting event that attracts people from all over the world. You got me on Cleveland, I have nothing. Also, Ohio Stadium is not a tourist attraction..that is the last thing I would see in Columbus.
4) A valid point, However CMH's proximity is much more damaging.
5) No, that's actual knowledge on my part. I have a lot of extended family in the greater Columbus area working in companies such as Cardinal Health, Huntington, and some smaller corps. They exclusively fly DL or WN. I don't believe that AA point for a second, sorry. I have flown through CMH on WN(2014), DL (2015), and AA (2017). The American gate area was dead at 6:30 AM compared to Delta or Southwest.

To finally end the CMH discussion: There has been no peep from the Columbus Airport Authority on LHR flights in a few years. That's not good. STL and IND however are actively pursuing it. Important to note that BNA is the only airport getting BA this year. No indication whatsoever that IND or STL will get them as well this time.

Also to those saying STL will get AMS on DL- what? Delta has a very weak customer base in St. Louis. They tried to build one after the demise of AA but failed miserably. Not to mention that would require Delta to change concourses, as I do not believe the A Concourse has the facilities to hold larger than a 752. The airport is not even pursuing AMS on any airline. The only airlines publicly exploring STL and that have met with the Airport Commission are British Airways and Condor.

SCQ83 wrote:

Robert1010 wrote:

Pretty funny but not sure if the metro will be extinct! Just saw the 2016 CSA and much to my surprise CLE was 15th , so there will always be potential , think facilities play a major factor as well!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combine ... tical_area

The trend is interesting nonetheless.

2016 Estimate 2010 Census

CLE: Cleveland-Akron-Canton, OH Combined Statistical Area 3,483,311 3,515,646 −0.92%
CMH: Columbus-Marion-Zanesville, OH Combined Statistical Area 2,443,402 2,308,509 +5.84%

Cleveland is one of the very few (and the largest among them) metro areas in the US that has lost population between 2010 and 2016, which has been overall positive for American demographics and economy. Usually companies do not like to invest in shrinking markets. Btw by comparison some of the metro areas recently announced by BA:

BNA: Nashville-Davidson–Murfreesboro, TN Combined Statistical Area 1,987,778 1,788,434 +11.15%
MSY: New Orleans-Metairie-Hammond, LA-MS Combined Statistical Area 1,501,213 1,413,965 +6.17%

For some reason I cannot find Austin in the list (?).

SCQ83 wrote:

Interestingly, BA announces BNA with a video featuring Kings of Leon, a "millennial" band https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9atlC4I_Jl8

So where are those Fortune 500 BP execs that will fill BA out of CLE?

Midwestindy wrote:

For AUS you must combine it with SAT to get the CSA

I know but I can't find either San Antonio in that list.

Midwestindy wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

Interestingly, BA announces BNA with a video featuring Kings of Leon, a "millennial" band https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9atlC4I_Jl8

So where are those Fortune 500 BP execs that will fill BA out of CLE?

Midwestindy wrote:

For AUS you must combine it with SAT to get the CSA

I know but I can't find either San Antonio in that list.

I meant SAT(Metro) + AUS(Metro)= 2,454,061 + 2,056,405 = 4,510,466

jbpdx wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

Interestingly, BA announces BNA with a video featuring Kings of Leon, a "millennial" band https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9atlC4I_Jl8

So where are those Fortune 500 BP execs that will fill BA out of CLE?



I know but I can't find either San Antonio in that list.

I meant SAT(Metro) + AUS(Metro)= 2,454,061 + 2,056,405 = 4,510,466

San Antonio and Austin are separate Metropolitan Statistical Areas, not one CSA. They don't fit the criteria for being considered a Combined Statistical Area, which is why they aren't on the CSA list.

MichianaOrthx wrote:

Any chance they give SJU a try again?

LAX772LR wrote:

why are you assuming to know what the incentives being offered actually are, since most of the above haven't made theirs public?

Midwestindy wrote:

jbpdx wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

I meant SAT(Metro) + AUS(Metro)= 2,454,061 + 2,056,405 = 4,510,466

San Antonio and Austin are separate Metropolitan Statistical Areas, not one CSA. They don't fit the criteria for being considered a Combined Statistical Area, which is why they aren't on the CSA list.

WE KNOW! but in the airline sense of things AUS+SAT are combined when talking about int'l air service.

SCQ83 wrote:

Robert1010 wrote:

Pretty funny but not sure if the metro will be extinct! Just saw the 2016 CSA and much to my surprise CLE was 15th , so there will always be potential , think facilities play a major factor as well!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combine ... tical_area

The trend is interesting nonetheless.

2016 Estimate 2010 Census

CLE: Cleveland-Akron-Canton, OH Combined Statistical Area 3,483,311 3,515,646 −0.92%
CMH: Columbus-Marion-Zanesville, OH Combined Statistical Area 2,443,402 2,308,509 +5.84%

Cleveland is one of the very few (and the largest among them) metro areas in the US that has lost population between 2010 and 2016, which has been overall positive for American demographics and economy. Usually companies do not like to invest in shrinking markets. Btw by comparison some of the metro areas recently announced by BA:

BNA: Nashville-Davidson–Murfreesboro, TN Combined Statistical Area 1,987,778 1,788,434 +11.15%
MSY: New Orleans-Metairie-Hammond, LA-MS Combined Statistical Area 1,501,213 1,413,965 +6.17%

For some reason I cannot find Austin in the list (?).

izbtmnhd wrote:

I mean CMH is paying WN so it can access San Fran through OAK. Meanwhile CLE has service to places like PDX and SAN.

izbtmnhd wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

Robert1010 wrote:

Pretty funny but not sure if the metro will be extinct! Just saw the 2016 CSA and much to my surprise CLE was 15th , so there will always be potential , think facilities play a major factor as well!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combine ... tical_area

The trend is interesting nonetheless.

2016 Estimate 2010 Census

CLE: Cleveland-Akron-Canton, OH Combined Statistical Area 3,483,311 3,515,646 −0.92%
CMH: Columbus-Marion-Zanesville, OH Combined Statistical Area 2,443,402 2,308,509 +5.84%

Cleveland is one of the very few (and the largest among them) metro areas in the US that has lost population between 2010 and 2016, which has been overall positive for American demographics and economy. Usually companies do not like to invest in shrinking markets. Btw by comparison some of the metro areas recently announced by BA:

BNA: Nashville-Davidson–Murfreesboro, TN Combined Statistical Area 1,987,778 1,788,434 +11.15%
MSY: New Orleans-Metairie-Hammond, LA-MS Combined Statistical Area 1,501,213 1,413,965 +6.17%

For some reason I cannot find Austin in the list (?).

Citing population estimates are great and all but if CLE is such a terrible market why is all the domestic feed going towards CLE?

I mean CMH is paying WN so it can access San Fran through OAK. Meanwhile CLE has service to places like PDX and SAN.

It's mainly about available O&D which can be quite different than population.

Cubsrule wrote:

izbtmnhd wrote:

I mean CMH is paying WN so it can access San Fran through OAK. Meanwhile CLE has service to places like PDX and SAN.

I realize that there is rhetorical value in putting down OAK, but why exactly is OAK an inferior bay area airport for CMH passengers? SFO offers TPAC connections, which aren't much good to people in our part of the country, but it also offers fog and congestion. I have more service to SFO than to OAK or SJC in my city but use OAK and SJC for more than 90 percent of my bay area travel.

Cubsrule wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

jbpdx wrote:

San Antonio and Austin are separate Metropolitan Statistical Areas, not one CSA. They don't fit the criteria for being considered a Combined Statistical Area, which is why they aren't on the CSA list.

WE KNOW! but in the airline sense of things AUS+SAT are combined when talking about int'l air service.

I don't think it's quite that easy. I absolutely think some SAT passengers drive to AUS to catch BA, but it's equally clear that the percentage of SAT TATL passengers who do that is less than 100 percent.

Malayil wrote:

Is CSA the best metric for airport market size, or is MSA better?