QXAS
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:26 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:18 am

QXAS wrote:
717atOGG wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
In the long haul, Everett will carry about 10% of the traffic of SeaTac. As such it will provide an important service and relief for an airport which has no room for much more expansion. Bremerton's airport probably has more empty space than any other in the region. While I cannot see it expanding, the region probably should be buying and reserving land around the airport. Just in case.

Probably not 10%. More like 2%. SEA has 45 million passengers a year, and we're talking about a terminal with 15 daily flights and ~500k passengers annually. Won't put a dent in SEA's traffic, it'll only siphon some passengers off living in or around Everett. I live near Bremerton's airport (PWT) and it's a pipe dream of mine to have Allegiant or Alaska/Horizon to serve the airport, but it'd require serious planning, advertising, and modification of the airport itself. One problem is population. Adding up the population of Kitsap County, you get about 265,000 people that would have driving to PWT more convenient. For a daily Q400, for example, you would have 152 seats to fill, which might be difficult, hence the need for advertising. The airport does have land around it, but it has a road nearby and very narrow taxiways, plus not much room to park a plane and build a terminal. It has a 6,000 foot runway which should be sufficient, but there looks to be room to extend it. There is a second runway that has been shut down and is used as a drag strip, which can be bought out, and probably should. Here's a picture of the runway and said obstacles around it:
ImageScreenshot 2017-08-13 at 8.53.20 PM by coolian03, on Flickr
Overall, it's another solution, but it has more obstacles than PAE did and can only support 1 or 2 gates IMO, and looks to be ~10+ years away.

With I-5 so slow constantly it would likely be a better alternative for Jefferson, Mason, and Clallam county residents as well. An additional 160,000 people. I would love to see PWT get air service. How long of a flight assuming a Q400 and at what altitude would a flight from PWT to SEA be? From Bremerton travel time would be a difference of 1 hour from Winslow about 10 minutes. And from Kingston a difference of 25 minutes. (Times were calculated at 11:15 pm so no I-5 traffic by google maps and the WSF ferry schedule estimated crossing times). Jefferson and Clallam counties would have the same driving difference as Kingston. Well close enough for government work that is. I think it could work. Problem is infrastructure at PWT. Kitsap county is only growing.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 4038
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:34 pm

What about Pierce County airport or set up JB Lewis-McChord like CHS where the USAF is on one side and a commercial airport on the other to serve the Tacoma/Olympia communities?
 
717atOGG
Topic Author
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:47 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
What about Pierce County airport or set up JB Lewis-McChord like CHS where the USAF is on one side and a commercial airport on the other to serve the Tacoma/Olympia communities?

JBLM has military housing surrounding it and isn't open to the public, so I'd rule that out. If it were public though, that would be a great option. Pierce County airport could happen, but it only has a 3,650 foot runway. So one is a no-go and one is iffy.
SEA, BWI, HNL, OGG, PHX, IAD, LIH; 717, 73G, 738, 739, A332; AS, HA, WN, UA
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 1640
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:53 pm

There likely are 20 square miles of territory undeveloped immediately adjacent to the Kitsap airport. My only 'recommendation' is that the state work with the Port of Bremerton (whose main industrial area is next to the airport) and keep enough of that land undeveloped so that it is a possibility.

Incidentally, the airport is about 15 miles west of Fauntleroy, via ferry. Fauntleroy is within the city limits of Seattle. Now the ferry goes to the northern tip of Vashon Island (about 4 miles), and continues across a narrow strait to the Kitsap Peninsula.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
717atOGG
Topic Author
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:53 pm

QXAS wrote:
717atOGG wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
In the long haul, Everett will carry about 10% of the traffic of SeaTac. As such it will provide an important service and relief for an airport which has no room for much more expansion. Bremerton's airport probably has more empty space than any other in the region. While I cannot see it expanding, the region probably should be buying and reserving land around the airport. Just in case.

Probably not 10%. More like 2%. SEA has 45 million passengers a year, and we're talking about a terminal with 15 daily flights and ~500k passengers annually. Won't put a dent in SEA's traffic, it'll only siphon some passengers off living in or around Everett. I live near Bremerton's airport (PWT) and it's a pipe dream of mine to have Allegiant or Alaska/Horizon to serve the airport, but it'd require serious planning, advertising, and modification of the airport itself. One problem is population. Adding up the population of Kitsap County, you get about 265,000 people that would have driving to PWT more convenient. For a daily Q400, for example, you would have 152 seats to fill, which might be difficult, hence the need for advertising. The airport does have land around it, but it has a road nearby and very narrow taxiways, plus not much room to park a plane and build a terminal. It has a 6,000 foot runway which should be sufficient, but there looks to be room to extend it. There is a second runway that has been shut down and is used as a drag strip, which can be bought out, and probably should. Here's a picture of the runway and said obstacles around it:
ImageScreenshot 2017-08-13 at 8.53.20 PM by coolian03, on Flickr
Overall, it's another solution, but it has more obstacles than PAE did and can only support 1 or 2 gates IMO, and looks to be ~10+ years away.

With I-5 so slow constantly it would likely be a better alternative for Jefferson, Mason, and Clallam county residents as well. An additional 160,000 people. I would love to see PWT get air service. How long of a flight assuming a Q400 and at what altitude would a flight from PWT to SEA be? From Bremerton travel time would be a difference of 1 hour from Winslow about 10 minutes. And from Kingston a difference of 25 minutes. (Times were calculated by google maps and the WSF ferry schedule estimated crossing times). Jefferson and Clallam counties would have the same driving difference as Kingston. Well close enough for government work that is. I think it could work. Problem is infrastructure at PWT. Kitsap county is only growing.

Hmm. I guess it has better demand than I thought. A flight to SEA probably wouldn't be practical since it's only 50 miles driving and probably even shorter as the crow flies, so probably about 15 minutes flying time. I think a flight to PDX would do better since now that AS has a real hub there, they could have connections to other places. Perhaps SFO could do well on an EMJ also.
SEA, BWI, HNL, OGG, PHX, IAD, LIH; 717, 73G, 738, 739, A332; AS, HA, WN, UA
 
dc10lover
Posts: 1224
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:03 pm

After the reshuffle at Sea - Tac, is there any way Southwest can gain more Gates for more flights?
Ever Wish You Can Go Back In Time And Live In An Earlier Era Of Aviation?
 
717atOGG
Topic Author
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:13 pm

dc10lover wrote:
After the reshuffle at Sea - Tac, is there any way Southwest can gain more Gates for more flights?

I don't know. They use the block of gates at the end of B, about 6 gates, and they should be able to fit in more flights during non-peak times. I believe that the gates are full in the early morning from RONs, though. WN is ending SEA-AUS in January and recently cut SNA so there should be room. I can see WN potentially adding BUR, SFO, LAX, and make ATL year round if there is room. I can't see them staying on BNA much longer with DL and AS on the route.
SEA, BWI, HNL, OGG, PHX, IAD, LIH; 717, 73G, 738, 739, A332; AS, HA, WN, UA
 
BA
Posts: 10217
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:14 pm

dc10lover wrote:
After the reshuffle at Sea - Tac, is there any way Southwest can gain more Gates for more flights?


What reshuffle?
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
QXAS
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:26 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:05 am

BA wrote:
dc10lover wrote:
After the reshuffle at Sea - Tac, is there any way Southwest can gain more Gates for more flights?


What reshuffle?

When the N sat is completed and the new IAF is complete. It's possible that more airlines will move from A to D with AS consolidating at C and N. This would open up space for more Intl out of A. I don't see WN getting more gates as IMO their utilization isn't as high as AS and DL as it is and they're not expanding at SEA.
 
BA
Posts: 10217
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:15 am

QXAS wrote:
BA wrote:
dc10lover wrote:
After the reshuffle at Sea - Tac, is there any way Southwest can gain more Gates for more flights?


What reshuffle?

When the N sat is completed and the new IAF is complete. It's possible that more airlines will move from A to D with AS consolidating at C and N. This would open up space for more Intl out of A. I don't see WN getting more gates as IMO their utilization isn't as high as AS and DL as it is and they're not expanding at SEA.


Ah ok, yeah that's going to be 4 years away since the North Satellite expansion and renovation doesn't complete until 2021.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
iamlucky13
Posts: 808
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:35 pm

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:40 am

717atOGG wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
What about Pierce County airport or set up JB Lewis-McChord like CHS where the USAF is on one side and a commercial airport on the other to serve the Tacoma/Olympia communities?

JBLM has military housing surrounding it and isn't open to the public, so I'd rule that out. If it were public though, that would be a great option. Pierce County airport could happen, but it only has a 3,650 foot runway. So one is a no-go and one is iffy.


McChord has been seriously considered for airline service, at least in the 90's when they were considering a second major airport instead of a 3rd runway at SeaTac. They decided SeaTac's third runway was a better option, as they were talking about a flight volume nearly as large as SeaTac's, and concluded it would be difficult to reconcile that much volume with the military needs. A much lower level of operations like what is going to start up at Paine Field wasn't discussed, because it wouldn't have significantly reduced SeaTac congestion.

The housing around McChord still leaves a large amount of open space within McChord's boundaries. Obviously a passenger terminal would have to be fenced off from the rest of the base, just like at the numerous other airports that are shared between military and civilian operations, like Hickam and Honolulu.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 4038
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:44 am

BA wrote:
QXAS wrote:
BA wrote:

What reshuffle?

When the N sat is completed and the new IAF is complete. It's possible that more airlines will move from A to D with AS consolidating at C and N. This would open up space for more Intl out of A. I don't see WN getting more gates as IMO their utilization isn't as high as AS and DL as it is and they're not expanding at SEA.

in
Ah ok, yeah that's going to be 4 years away since the North Satellite expansion and renovation doesn't complete until 2021.


Even when the expanded N-Concourse opens for business, there is no guarantee that AS will give up the four or five gates in the D-Concourse. The only thing I can really see moving is NK moving to the D-concourse and not having to move around during every flight. I can see SY and F9 moving D as well. But again, that will only happen if AS removes itself from D.

WN has slowly and consistently have been discontinuing flights at SEA. I don't think WN will go anywhere soon nor have a need for additional gates.
 
BA
Posts: 10217
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:15 am

wedgetail737 wrote:
Even when the expanded N-Concourse opens for business, there is no guarantee that AS will give up the four or five gates in the D-Concourse. The only thing I can really see moving is NK moving to the D-concourse and not having to move around during every flight. I can see SY and F9 moving D as well. But again, that will only happen if AS removes itself from D.


I agree. Especially since it's only the addition of 8 gates ad in 4-5 years time, they're going to need more gates as they grow.

Honestly I think SEA needs to shift to more of a common use gate model as the standard. They're being forced into it now due to the gate shortages (as I mentioned earlier, I flew out on AA from the South Satellite last month), but even after the IAF and North Satellite are complete, there still will be a gate shortage.

wedgetail737 wrote:
WN has slowly and consistently have been discontinuing flights at SEA. I don't think WN will go anywhere soon nor have a need for additional gates.


They've discontinued but also have added, so I think they've mostly been flat (netted out). I agree that they don't need additional gates and I don't see them needing more in the future either.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
ANCsupercub
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 1:03 pm

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:42 am

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/bo ... 7-percent/

Interesting article on the ballooning expansion costs related to the International Arrivals Facility and the North Satellite expansion.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1158
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:58 am

ANCsupercub wrote:
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/cost-of-sea-tacs-two-big-expansion-projects-rises-17-percent/

Interesting article on the ballooning expansion costs related to the International Arrivals Facility and the North Satellite expansion.


Way to go Port! Only their fault dragging their feet.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 4038
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:05 am

BA wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
Even when the expanded N-Concourse opens for business, there is no guarantee that AS will give up the four or five gates in the D-Concourse. The only thing I can really see moving is NK moving to the D-concourse and not having to move around during every flight. I can see SY and F9 moving D as well. But again, that will only happen if AS removes itself from D.


I agree. Especially since it's only the addition of 8 gates ad in 4-5 years time, they're going to need more gates as they grow.

Honestly I think SEA needs to shift to more of a common use gate model as the standard. They're being forced into it now due to the gate shortages (as I mentioned earlier, I flew out on AA from the South Satellite last month), but even after the IAF and North Satellite are complete, there still will be a gate shortage.

wedgetail737 wrote:
WN has slowly and consistently have been discontinuing flights at SEA. I don't think WN will go anywhere soon nor have a need for additional gates.


They've discontinued but also have added, so I think they've mostly been flat (netted out). I agree that they don't need additional gates and I don't see them needing more in the future either.


I have arrived at the S and A concourses while flying AS, which is odd. But I don't think I've ever seen AA go to the S Concourse since they moved to D. Although I was surprised WN took up the one or two gates that VX had at Concourse B...instead of DL.
 
BA
Posts: 10217
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:53 am

wedgetail737 wrote:
BA wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
Even when the expanded N-Concourse opens for business, there is no guarantee that AS will give up the four or five gates in the D-Concourse. The only thing I can really see moving is NK moving to the D-concourse and not having to move around during every flight. I can see SY and F9 moving D as well. But again, that will only happen if AS removes itself from D.


I agree. Especially since it's only the addition of 8 gates ad in 4-5 years time, they're going to need more gates as they grow.

Honestly I think SEA needs to shift to more of a common use gate model as the standard. They're being forced into it now due to the gate shortages (as I mentioned earlier, I flew out on AA from the South Satellite last month), but even after the IAF and North Satellite are complete, there still will be a gate shortage.

wedgetail737 wrote:
WN has slowly and consistently have been discontinuing flights at SEA. I don't think WN will go anywhere soon nor have a need for additional gates.


They've discontinued but also have added, so I think they've mostly been flat (netted out). I agree that they don't need additional gates and I don't see them needing more in the future either.


I have arrived at the S and A concourses while flying AS, which is odd. But I don't think I've ever seen AA go to the S Concourse since they moved to D. Although I was surprised WN took up the one or two gates that VX had at Concourse B...instead of DL.


Was the arrival into S from Mexico?

Regarding Concourse A, for at least a year or two now Alaska has listed in its inflight magazine and website that they use gates A12 and A13:
https://www.alaskaair.com/content/airpo ... es-Seattle

Regarding my experience flying AA out of S, yes that was unusual. The check-in agent asked me if "I'm familiar with the airport" as she wanted to give me directions on where to go this time.

To add to this story, when we pushed back out of the gate, I saw an Alaska Airlines 737 at the B gates.

Image

Image
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
717atOGG
Topic Author
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:26 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
BA wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
Even when the expanded N-Concourse opens for business, there is no guarantee that AS will give up the four or five gates in the D-Concourse. The only thing I can really see moving is NK moving to the D-concourse and not having to move around during every flight. I can see SY and F9 moving D as well. But again, that will only happen if AS removes itself from D.


I agree. Especially since it's only the addition of 8 gates ad in 4-5 years time, they're going to need more gates as they grow.

Honestly I think SEA needs to shift to more of a common use gate model as the standard. They're being forced into it now due to the gate shortages (as I mentioned earlier, I flew out on AA from the South Satellite last month), but even after the IAF and North Satellite are complete, there still will be a gate shortage.

wedgetail737 wrote:
WN has slowly and consistently have been discontinuing flights at SEA. I don't think WN will go anywhere soon nor have a need for additional gates.


They've discontinued but also have added, so I think they've mostly been flat (netted out). I agree that they don't need additional gates and I don't see them needing more in the future either.


I have arrived at the S and A concourses while flying AS, which is odd. But I don't think I've ever seen AA go to the S Concourse since they moved to D. Although I was surprised WN took up the one or two gates that VX had at Concourse B...instead of DL.

Did WN take the gates over? I'm curious. I did see a VX A319 at B1 in December shortly before they moved to D, and then I saw a DL 757 at that gate three weeks ago, so one would guess that DL took the gates, although I may be wrong.
SEA, BWI, HNL, OGG, PHX, IAD, LIH; 717, 73G, 738, 739, A332; AS, HA, WN, UA
 
717atOGG
Topic Author
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:44 pm

If AB shuts down, does anyone think that SEA-CGN could be shifted to DUS? I hope so, I think it could have a better chance of success there.
SEA, BWI, HNL, OGG, PHX, IAD, LIH; 717, 73G, 738, 739, A332; AS, HA, WN, UA
 
iamlucky13
Posts: 808
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:35 pm

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:40 pm

n7371f wrote:
ANCsupercub wrote:
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/cost-of-sea-tacs-two-big-expansion-projects-rises-17-percent/

Interesting article on the ballooning expansion costs related to the International Arrivals Facility and the North Satellite expansion.


Way to go Port! Only their fault dragging their feet.


There were a mix of factors listed in the article, including the contractor both underbidding and not factoring in some code requirements.

Odd that the contractor can say, "We bid lower than we should have and we ignored legally required things" and the Port responds with, "Alright then, here's some more money," instead of, "And we're supposed to reward you for your mistake?"

I'm assuming this was a typical fixed price design and build contract, not a cost-plus contract.

Scope changes were also factor, which would be on the Port.

There was no explanation given for how this grew from the original $344 million project to the $660 million budgeted before these latest changes.

In their latest status update 3 months ago, they claimed both the International Arrivals project and the north satellite upgrades were on-budget.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 1640
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:52 pm

There is currently, and in the foreseeable future, a shortage of construction workers. Also Maritime workers, also well paid bus drivers. LOL - we need more immigrants!
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
BA
Posts: 10217
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:21 pm

717atOGG wrote:
Did WN take the gates over? I'm curious. I did see a VX A319 at B1 in December shortly before they moved to D, and then I saw a DL 757 at that gate three weeks ago, so one would guess that DL took the gates, although I may be wrong.


Are you sure these aren't common use gates? Concourse B has a number of gates that are common use and aren't leased to one specific airline.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
717atOGG
Topic Author
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:04 am

BA wrote:
717atOGG wrote:
Did WN take the gates over? I'm curious. I did see a VX A319 at B1 in December shortly before they moved to D, and then I saw a DL 757 at that gate three weeks ago, so one would guess that DL took the gates, although I may be wrong.


Are you sure these aren't common use gates? Concourse B has a number of gates that are common use and aren't leased to one specific airline.

They might be common-use. Thanks for the correction.
SEA, BWI, HNL, OGG, PHX, IAD, LIH; 717, 73G, 738, 739, A332; AS, HA, WN, UA
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 7259
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:19 am

717atOGG wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
In the long haul, Everett will carry about 10% of the traffic of SeaTac. As such it will provide an important service and relief for an airport which has no room for much more expansion. Bremerton's airport probably has more empty space than any other in the region. While I cannot see it expanding, the region probably should be buying and reserving land around the airport. Just in case.

Probably not 10%. More like 2%. SEA has 45 million passengers a year, and we're talking about a terminal with 15 daily flights and ~500k passengers annually. Won't put a dent in SEA's traffic, it'll only siphon some passengers off living in or around Everett. I live near Bremerton's airport (PWT) and it's a pipe dream of mine to have Allegiant or Alaska/Horizon to serve the airport, but it'd require serious planning, advertising, and modification of the airport itself. One problem is population. Adding up the population of Kitsap County, you get about 265,000 people that would have driving to PWT more convenient. For a daily Q400, for example, you would have 152 seats to fill, which might be difficult, hence the need for advertising. The airport does have land around it, but it has a road nearby and very narrow taxiways, plus not much room to park a plane and build a terminal. It has a 6,000 foot runway which should be sufficient, but there looks to be room to extend it. There is a second runway that has been shut down and is used as a drag strip, which can be bought out, and probably should. Here's a picture of the runway and said obstacles around it:
ImageScreenshot 2017-08-13 at 8.53.20 PM by coolian03, on Flickr
Overall, it's another solution, but it has more obstacles than PAE did and can only support 1 or 2 gates IMO, and looks to be ~10+ years away.


I believe 5 or 6 years ago, Allegiant kicked the tires on PWT. Driving through the area, it certainly feels pretty rural and not really central to most of the population. Were QX to fly in there, I'd imagine PDX would be the logical connection point, but really it probably would have to be something like Penair or the like.
-Dave
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4742
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:33 pm

QXAS wrote:
With I-5 so slow constantly it would likely be a better alternative for Jefferson, Mason, and Clallam county residents as well. An additional 160,000 people. I would love to see PWT get air service. How long of a flight assuming a Q400 and at what altitude would a flight from PWT to SEA be? From Bremerton travel time would be a difference of 1 hour from Winslow about 10 minutes. And from Kingston a difference of 25 minutes. (Times were calculated by google maps and the WSF ferry schedule estimated crossing times). Jefferson and Clallam counties would have the same driving difference as Kingston. Well close enough for government work that is. I think it could work. Problem is infrastructure at PWT. Kitsap county is only growing.

I'd go even further and say that with the way traffic between Tacoma and Seattle is worsening, PWT would even be able to draw traffic from Tacoma and points south like Thurston County, especially with little details like cheaper/closer parking.
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 2753
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:49 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
n7371f wrote:
ANCsupercub wrote:
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/cost-of-sea-tacs-two-big-expansion-projects-rises-17-percent/

Interesting article on the ballooning expansion costs related to the International Arrivals Facility and the North Satellite expansion.


Way to go Port! Only their fault dragging their feet.


There were a mix of factors listed in the article, including the contractor both underbidding and not factoring in some code requirements.

Odd that the contractor can say, "We bid lower than we should have and we ignored legally required things" and the Port responds with, "Alright then, here's some more money," instead of, "And we're supposed to reward you for your mistake?"

I'm assuming this was a typical fixed price design and build contract, not a cost-plus contract.

Scope changes were also factor, which would be on the Port.

There was no explanation given for how this grew from the original $344 million project to the $660 million budgeted before these latest changes.



In their latest status update 3 months ago, they claimed both the International Arrivals project and the north satellite upgrades were on-budget.


Same thing happened on the light rail extension across I-90. Contractor realized they needed to do retrofitting due to the weight of the trains after they had already submitted the bid and state said "no problem, we've got you covered" instead of asking how the contractor could not have taken that into consideration on the bid
 
QXAS
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:26 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:51 pm

HPRamper wrote:
QXAS wrote:
With I-5 so slow constantly it would likely be a better alternative for Jefferson, Mason, and Clallam county residents as well. An additional 160,000 people. I would love to see PWT get air service. How long of a flight assuming a Q400 and at what altitude would a flight from PWT to SEA be? From Bremerton travel time would be a difference of 1 hour from Winslow about 10 minutes. And from Kingston a difference of 25 minutes. (Times were calculated by google maps and the WSF ferry schedule estimated crossing times). Jefferson and Clallam counties would have the same driving difference as Kingston. Well close enough for government work that is. I think it could work. Problem is infrastructure at PWT. Kitsap county is only growing.

I'd go even further and say that with the way traffic between Tacoma and Seattle is worsening, PWT would even be able to draw traffic from Tacoma and points south like Thurston County, especially with little details like cheaper/closer parking.

I wasn't even considering that traffic. There would be a market if it were ever attempted. The key would be enough service to make it a viable alternative but not overcapacity. And of course PWT currently lacks infrastructure for a passenger terminal. With all the space they have out there though it wouldn't be hard. Heck if a ferry wasn't required I could see PWT being the site of an eventual SEA replacement because of all the room to grow.
 
BA
Posts: 10217
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:16 pm

Model of the IAF. Looking at the model in detail, it appears gate A8 will be eliminated. Initially it looked like they were going to squeeze it in as a non-international gate, that could still be the case and it's just not reflected in the model, although gate A5 which will not be an international gate is reflected.

Image
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
717atOGG
Topic Author
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:33 pm

QXAS wrote:
HPRamper wrote:
QXAS wrote:
With I-5 so slow constantly it would likely be a better alternative for Jefferson, Mason, and Clallam county residents as well. An additional 160,000 people. I would love to see PWT get air service. How long of a flight assuming a Q400 and at what altitude would a flight from PWT to SEA be? From Bremerton travel time would be a difference of 1 hour from Winslow about 10 minutes. And from Kingston a difference of 25 minutes. (Times were calculated by google maps and the WSF ferry schedule estimated crossing times). Jefferson and Clallam counties would have the same driving difference as Kingston. Well close enough for government work that is. I think it could work. Problem is infrastructure at PWT. Kitsap county is only growing.

I'd go even further and say that with the way traffic between Tacoma and Seattle is worsening, PWT would even be able to draw traffic from Tacoma and points south like Thurston County, especially with little details like cheaper/closer parking.

I wasn't even considering that traffic. There would be a market if it were ever attempted. The key would be enough service to make it a viable alternative but not overcapacity. And of course PWT currently lacks infrastructure for a passenger terminal. With all the space they have out there though it wouldn't be hard. Heck if a ferry wasn't required I could see PWT being the site of an eventual SEA replacement because of all the room to grow.

I agree. However, PWT is pretty far from downtown Seatlle, but I could see it serving the Kitsap County and Tacoma passengers, but as you said, enough service to not have pax drive to SEA, but not too much that it's unsustainable. If service were to happen, I could see roads and stuff being moved, a 2 or 3 gate terminal, and the runway being extended 1000 to 2000 feet just for safety. At the bare minimum AS could serve PDX and SFO for connections with the outside chance of GEG, LAX, and a Sat. only HNL during peak times. However, it's just talk and unlikely to happen. I can dream though... :scratchchin:
SEA, BWI, HNL, OGG, PHX, IAD, LIH; 717, 73G, 738, 739, A332; AS, HA, WN, UA
 
717atOGG
Topic Author
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:01 am

BA wrote:
Model of the IAF. Looking at the model in detail, it appears gate A8 will be eliminated. Initially it looked like they were going to squeeze it in as a non-international gate, that could still be the case and it's just not reflected in the model, although gate A5 which will not be an international gate is reflected.

Image

Thanks for sharing. When I was at SEA two weeks ago I took a picture of that but didn't post it. With the expansion of wide-body capable gates from 12 to 20 I assume the gates are coming from Concourse A. That increases the odds of NK and SY moving elsewhere, as there may be less space to park at A with DL potentially expanding internationally out of SEA. On that note, HKG is going to a 772 starting next spring. I know nothing's finalized, but it's something to shut down the "SEA is a failing DL hub" people. Interesting that HKG has more capacity than NRT, ICN, PEK, or PVG from SEA.
SEA, BWI, HNL, OGG, PHX, IAD, LIH; 717, 73G, 738, 739, A332; AS, HA, WN, UA
 
BA
Posts: 10217
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:07 am

717atOGG wrote:
BA wrote:
Model of the IAF. Looking at the model in detail, it appears gate A8 will be eliminated. Initially it looked like they were going to squeeze it in as a non-international gate, that could still be the case and it's just not reflected in the model, although gate A5 which will not be an international gate is reflected.

Image

Thanks for sharing. When I was at SEA two weeks ago I took a picture of that but didn't post it. With the expansion of wide-body capable gates from 12 to 20 I assume the gates are coming from Concourse A. That increases the odds of NK and SY moving elsewhere, as there may be less space to park at A with DL potentially expanding internationally out of SEA. On that note, HKG is going to a 772 starting next spring. I know nothing's finalized, but it's something to shut down the "SEA is a failing DL hub" people. Interesting that HKG has more capacity than NRT, ICN, PEK, or PVG from SEA.


Yep, the additions are from Concourse A. They will still however handle domestic flights, so really they're just going to become dual purpose (domestic and international) gates, which is how the South Satellite is used currently too.

When Concourse A was built in 2004, it should have been built as an international concourse to begin with. Oh well, better late than never...
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
Posts: 10217
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:22 am

717atOGG wrote:
When I was at SEA two weeks ago I took a picture of that but didn't post it.


Where is this model? I'm flying out next week so I'll try to check it out.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
717atOGG
Topic Author
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:24 am

BA wrote:
717atOGG wrote:
When I was at SEA two weeks ago I took a picture of that but didn't post it.


Where is this model? I'm flying out next week so I'll try to check it out.

Near baggage claim 1, below the giant plane that's to the left of the ticket counters for the foreign airlines.
SEA, BWI, HNL, OGG, PHX, IAD, LIH; 717, 73G, 738, 739, A332; AS, HA, WN, UA
 
BA
Posts: 10217
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:41 am

717atOGG wrote:
BA wrote:
717atOGG wrote:
When I was at SEA two weeks ago I took a picture of that but didn't post it.


Where is this model? I'm flying out next week so I'll try to check it out.

Near baggage claim 1, below the giant plane that's to the left of the ticket counters for the foreign airlines.


Thanks! I'll check it out next week.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
717atOGG
Topic Author
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:42 am

BA wrote:
717atOGG wrote:
BA wrote:
Model of the IAF. Looking at the model in detail, it appears gate A8 will be eliminated. Initially it looked like they were going to squeeze it in as a non-international gate, that could still be the case and it's just not reflected in the model, although gate A5 which will not be an international gate is reflected.

Image

Thanks for sharing. When I was at SEA two weeks ago I took a picture of that but didn't post it. With the expansion of wide-body capable gates from 12 to 20 I assume the gates are coming from Concourse A. That increases the odds of NK and SY moving elsewhere, as there may be less space to park at A with DL potentially expanding internationally out of SEA. On that note, HKG is going to a 772 starting next spring. I know nothing's finalized, but it's something to shut down the "SEA is a failing DL hub" people. Interesting that HKG has more capacity than NRT, ICN, PEK, or PVG from SEA.


Yep, the additions are from Concourse A. They will still however handle domestic flights, so really they're just going to become dual purpose (domestic and international) gates, which is how the South Satellite is used currently too.

When Concourse A was built in 2004, it should have been built as an international concourse to begin with. Oh well, better late than never...

I agree, but hindsight is 20/20. Keep in mind, SEA was a very different place 13 years ago, so expanding the facilities wasn't really on the Port's radar until 2014. If I were in charge I would have started building the new IAF in 2015 so it would be almost complete by now. I guess the inconvenience of construction will be worth it on the long term.
SEA, BWI, HNL, OGG, PHX, IAD, LIH; 717, 73G, 738, 739, A332; AS, HA, WN, UA
 
dc10lover
Posts: 1224
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:02 am

Success: Just this Summer United started service between San Francisco & Spokane and using Embraer 175's. Now they are using the 737 - 900.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL1737
Ever Wish You Can Go Back In Time And Live In An Earlier Era Of Aviation?
 
717atOGG
Topic Author
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:05 am

dc10lover wrote:
Success: Just this Summer United started service between San Francisco & Spokane and using Embraer 175's. Now they are using the 737 - 900.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL1737

Not surprised. Seemed like a hole in GEG's network for a long time. Perhaps also a preemptive strike against AS, who might add GEG-SFO...???
SEA, BWI, HNL, OGG, PHX, IAD, LIH; 717, 73G, 738, 739, A332; AS, HA, WN, UA
 
BA
Posts: 10217
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:36 am

With regards to SEA-PDX traffic, WSDOT released the new Point Defiance bypass Amtrak Cascades schedule which adds 2 additional Seattle - Portland trips, one early morning and one late evening trip designed for business travelers to be able to do same day trips. There will be a total of 6 round trips between Seattle and Portland, in addition to the daily Coast Starlight long distance train to/from Los Angeles (though it's 40 minute slower than the Cascades runs). Start date for the new schedule hasn't been finalized, but supposedly will be sometime in December as they finish up the new Tacoma station and trestle project.

http://www.king5.com/traffic/traffic-ne ... /464422190

Travel times are reduced to 3 hours 20 minutes on all six trains, that's only 5 minutes slower than the scheduled travel time for BoltBus. Keeping in mind while BoltBus makes no stops, the Amtrak Cascades makes 6 stops on the way (Tukwila, Tacoma, Olympia/Lacey, Centralia, Longview/Kelso, and Vancouver WA), so that 5 minute extra travel time is a small price to pay for the added flexibility over BoltBus through 6 intermediate stops. If the train were to make no stops like BoltBus, it would be faster than BoltBus by I estimate a good 20 minutes if not more.

Hopefully they're able to keep to the 88% on time reliability that BNSF is guaranteeing, as poor on-time performance is the main problem the existing service suffers from and will deter business travelers which need dependable schedules. We shall see...

With regards to air travel, won't make make much of a difference, but it'll be interesting to see if same day business travelers, that normally would fly on Horizon, would now consider taking the train. Or if it will be mainly travelers that travel by bus or car that choose to take the train instead.

Here's the schedule:
https://www.scribd.com/document/3564656 ... d-Schedule

It allows a 9 hour stay in Portland or Seattle, should be good for business travelers.

From an airport connectivity standpoint, Tukwila Station is only 5 miles from Sea-Tac Airport, so transfers to/from Amtrak Cascades and the airport are only a 10 minute cab/Uber/Lyft ride or 20 minute bus/light-rail ride. For those that live along points between Seattle and Portland, it's a decently convenient option to use to fly out of Sea-Tac.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
717atOGG
Topic Author
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:09 pm

BA wrote:
With regards to SEA-PDX traffic, WSDOT released the new Point Defiance bypass Amtrak Cascades schedule which adds 2 additional Seattle - Portland trips, one early morning and one late evening trip designed for business travelers to be able to do same day trips. There will be a total of 6 round trips between Seattle and Portland, in addition to the daily Coast Starlight long distance train to/from Los Angeles (though it's 40 minute slower than the Cascades runs). Start date for the new schedule hasn't been finalized, but supposedly will be sometime in December as they finish up the new Tacoma station and trestle project.

http://www.king5.com/traffic/traffic-ne ... /464422190

Travel times are reduced to 3 hours 20 minutes on all six trains, that's only 5 minutes slower than the scheduled travel time for BoltBus. Keeping in mind while BoltBus makes no stops, the Amtrak Cascades makes 6 stops on the way (Tukwila, Tacoma, Olympia/Lacey, Centralia, Longview/Kelso, and Vancouver WA), so that 5 minute extra travel time is a small price to pay for the added flexibility over BoltBus through 6 intermediate stops. If the train were to make no stops like BoltBus, it would be faster than BoltBus by I estimate a good 20 minutes if not more.

Hopefully they're able to keep to the 88% on time reliability that BNSF is guaranteeing, as poor on-time performance is the main problem the existing service suffers from and will deter business travelers which need dependable schedules. We shall see...

With regards to air travel, won't make make much of a difference, but it'll be interesting to see if same day business travelers, that normally would fly on Horizon, would now consider taking the train. Or if it will be mainly travelers that travel by bus or car that choose to take the train instead.

Here's the schedule:
https://www.scribd.com/document/3564656 ... d-Schedule

It allows a 9 hour stay in Portland or Seattle, should be good for business travelers.

From an airport connectivity standpoint, Tukwila Station is only 5 miles from Sea-Tac Airport, so transfers to/from Amtrak Cascades and the airport are only a 10 minute cab/Uber/Lyft ride or 20 minute bus/light-rail ride. For those that live along points between Seattle and Portland, it's a decently convenient option to use to fly out of Sea-Tac.

Great. I don't take the train very often, but when I did in March on the Cascades, it was full and on time, which is good. I believe that Amtrak has less business passengers though, and that mostly connecting passengers and people traveling for work take the Alaska shuttle. Because the E175 isn't showing up much on the shuttle, I think a subfleet of Q400s with a 6F/64Y configuration could work, but I don't think that would happen in the near future, although it would be an argument to take Alaska rather than Amtrak since both would offer a F cabin.
SEA, BWI, HNL, OGG, PHX, IAD, LIH; 717, 73G, 738, 739, A332; AS, HA, WN, UA
 
dc10lover
Posts: 1224
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:48 pm

I would LOVE to see Spokane have more non - stops to more Cities. Maybe bring back non - stop to Atlanta via Delta. What about service to Vancouver, BC on Air Canada for International Flights as an alternative to Seattle. I guess this has not affected demand on Alaska on their Seattle / Portland routes?
Ever Wish You Can Go Back In Time And Live In An Earlier Era Of Aviation?
 
717atOGG
Topic Author
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:41 am

dc10lover wrote:
I would LOVE to see Spokane have more non - stops to more Cities. Maybe bring back non - stop to Atlanta via Delta. What about service to Vancouver, BC on Air Canada for International Flights as an alternative to Seattle. I guess this has not affected demand on Alaska on their Seattle / Portland routes?

I would love to have new growth from GEG, it might alleviate some of the squeeze on SEA. GEG-ATL would be a perfect CS100 route, and GEG-YVR could be a good Q100/300 route. If MDT can support YYZ, GEG can support YVR. At the very least, AS could also start GEG-SFO/SAN without cannibalizing SEA.
SEA, BWI, HNL, OGG, PHX, IAD, LIH; 717, 73G, 738, 739, A332; AS, HA, WN, UA
 
n7371f
Posts: 1158
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:06 am

717atOGG wrote:
dc10lover wrote:
Success: Just this Summer United started service between San Francisco & Spokane and using Embraer 175's. Now they are using the 737 - 900.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL1737

Not surprised. Seemed like a hole in GEG's network for a long time. Perhaps also a preemptive strike against AS, who might add GEG-SFO...???


It's high-time summer bookings. GEG falls in the fall, if you will, and Jan/Feb are big dumps. Check out the airport website for annual traffic.
 
Wingtips56
Posts: 963
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:26 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:11 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:

I believe 5 or 6 years ago, Allegiant kicked the tires on PWT. Driving through the area, it certainly feels pretty rural and not really central to most of the population. Were QX to fly in there, I'd imagine PDX would be the logical connection point, but really it probably would have to be something like Penair or the like.


That's a "no" on PenAir. They filed Chapter 11 bankruptcy and are done in the PNW with the exception of the PDX-CEC route pending finding a new carrier to take the EAS contract for CEC. Max 90 days. They already closed ACV, RDD, LMT and OTH with only 3 days notice.

There isn't anyone else on this side of the U.S. with a Saab-like capacity, so PWT is unlikely. Maybe 8-seat Boutique.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired)
 
Passedv1
Posts: 526
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:40 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:45 am

If AS does a Hawaii service I think OGG is more likely than HNL. HNL Is maxed out gate-wise unless they dump LAX-HNL which would not surprise me but seems less likely.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 4038
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:27 pm

Wingtips56 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

I believe 5 or 6 years ago, Allegiant kicked the tires on PWT. Driving through the area, it certainly feels pretty rural and not really central to most of the population. Were QX to fly in there, I'd imagine PDX would be the logical connection point, but really it probably would have to be something like Penair or the like.


That's a "no" on PenAir. They filed Chapter 11 bankruptcy and are done in the PNW with the exception of the PDX-CEC route pending finding a new carrier to take the EAS contract for CEC. Max 90 days. They already closed ACV, RDD, LMT and OTH with only 3 days notice.

There isn't anyone else on this side of the U.S. with a Saab-like capacity, so PWT is unlikely. Maybe 8-seat Boutique.


The only sizeable commuters left, really...are Key Lime out of Colorado with the Dornier jets or even more remotely, Contour out of BNA. I guess Silver could do it, but they're not doing too well either.
 
717atOGG
Topic Author
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:06 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
Wingtips56 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

I believe 5 or 6 years ago, Allegiant kicked the tires on PWT. Driving through the area, it certainly feels pretty rural and not really central to most of the population. Were QX to fly in there, I'd imagine PDX would be the logical connection point, but really it probably would have to be something like Penair or the like.


That's a "no" on PenAir. They filed Chapter 11 bankruptcy and are done in the PNW with the exception of the PDX-CEC route pending finding a new carrier to take the EAS contract for CEC. Max 90 days. They already closed ACV, RDD, LMT and OTH with only 3 days notice.

There isn't anyone else on this side of the U.S. with a Saab-like capacity, so PWT is unlikely. Maybe 8-seat Boutique.


The only sizeable commuters left, really...are Key Lime out of Colorado with the Dornier jets or even more remotely, Contour out of BNA. I guess Silver could do it, but they're not doing too well either.

I don't really think that PWT would get EAS because there's no dire need for air service to the area, and people drive to SEA mainly, so QX would be the most likely candidate for service.
SEA, BWI, HNL, OGG, PHX, IAD, LIH; 717, 73G, 738, 739, A332; AS, HA, WN, UA
 
717atOGG
Topic Author
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:18 pm

For 2017 through the end of June, SEA hit 22,154,850 passengers. That's more than SEA had the entire year of 1994! Looks like SEA is on track for 46 or 47 million pax by year's end! It's exciting to see continued growth here, and I hope that the CUTE system will allow for more growth at non-peak times. If anyone has the statistics so far for GEG, BLI, or PSC, I'd be happy to see them.
SEA, BWI, HNL, OGG, PHX, IAD, LIH; 717, 73G, 738, 739, A332; AS, HA, WN, UA
 
User avatar
ASMD11
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:40 pm

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:38 pm

717atOGG wrote:
For 2017 through the end of June, SEA hit 22,154,850 passengers. That's more than SEA had the entire year of 1994! Looks like SEA is on track for 46 or 47 million pax by year's end! It's exciting to see continued growth here, and I hope that the CUTE system will allow for more growth at non-peak times. If anyone has the statistics so far for GEG, BLI, or PSC, I'd be happy to see them.


Through June 2017 GEG was at 1,630,251 passengers a 7.86% increase from last year.
 
iamlucky13
Posts: 808
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:35 pm

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:23 am

Looking up BLI's own page, I don't see anything newer than year-end 2016:
http://www.portofbellingham.com/Archive.aspx?AMID=36

829,000 passengers for the full year, down from the 2013 peak of 1,172,528.

BTS has 5 months data posted for 2017
https://www.transtats.bts.gov/Data_Elements.aspx?Data=1

That's 166,527 pax this year vs. 188,621 pax for the same 5 months last year (enplaned only figures, I guess. The rest of our figures seem to be enplaned and deplaned). The US-CAN exchange rate changes are not being good to BLI.
 
MaxTrimm
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:43 pm

Re: Washington State air service discussion

Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:33 am

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos