wedgetail737 wrote:

The EMB-175's are definitely a better airliner by far than the CRJ-200's, CRJ-700's and CRJ-900's. I can't say for the EMB-190's. Anyway, I flew both DL's and AS's EMB-175 and the fact that DL is moving more of the E75's to west coast a good call!

I agree. It makes them more competitive in SEA compared to the CR7 or CR9, and it makes a passenger perhaps more inclined to choose it over a Alaska Q400, especially on longer flights like BOI or YEG, where a first class cabin and it being a jet make the most difference.

wedgetail737 wrote:

The EMB-175's are definitely a better airliner by far than the CRJ-200's, CRJ-700's and CRJ-900's. I can't say for the EMB-190's. Anyway, I flew both DL's and AS's EMB-175 and the fact that DL is moving more of the E75's to west coast a good call!

Mostly agree. Except Compass is a hot mess - operationally and soft-product wise. They are the biggest headache for DL in the Connection carriers.

n7371f wrote:

wedgetail737 wrote:

The EMB-175's are definitely a better airliner by far than the CRJ-200's, CRJ-700's and CRJ-900's. I can't say for the EMB-190's. Anyway, I flew both DL's and AS's EMB-175 and the fact that DL is moving more of the E75's to west coast a good call!

Mostly agree. Except Compass is a hot mess - operationally and soft-product wise. They are the biggest headache for DL in the Connection carriers.

It's interesting to me that both Compass and SkyWest are operating for DL at SEA's hub...similar to QX and OO for AS. I'm surprise there hasn't been any visible conflicts between the two airlines.

n7371f wrote:

wedgetail737 wrote:

The EMB-175's are definitely a better airliner by far than the CRJ-200's, CRJ-700's and CRJ-900's. I can't say for the EMB-190's. Anyway, I flew both DL's and AS's EMB-175 and the fact that DL is moving more of the E75's to west coast a good call!

Mostly agree. Except Compass is a hot mess - operationally and soft-product wise. They are the biggest headache for DL in the Connection carriers.

Are the airplanes more worn-out inside than the brand-new OO jets or are they similar? I know they're older, so it would be good to update their interiors if needed, or just replace them with brand-new E7Ws from OO. Either way though, at least DL can claim they're all jet from SEA. Unless the AS Q400s have a loyal following I don't know about, it seems like it'd be good to advertise.

As we get closer to wrapping up the year, I thought it'd be nice to have a recap for what happened at airports in Washington, whether it's route announcements, routes starting, or other things.

SEA:
Gained AS to IND, PIT, DAL, ICT, SBP, lost COS
Gained DL to RDU, ORD, AUS, BNA, LIH, EUG, MFR, RDM, MSY next year, mainline to YVR, lost Delta Shuttle branding and LHR
Gained UA near-shuttle service to SFO, NK to BWI, IAH, and DTW plus ORD, MSP, DFW, and FLL for 2018, F9 to COS and maybe CVG, DY to LGW, AM to MEX, VS to LHR, EW to CGN, MT to MAN, AF resuming CDG, and EI to DUB for 2018, Got and lost DE to MUC and lost NK to LAX.
PAE:
Started terminal construction and got UA and AS for 2018.
BLI:
Lost AS to LAS
PSC:
Got UA E75 to DEN
GEG:
Got UA to SFO which quickly became mainline, AA to DFW, F9 to DEN, WN to SJC

And....we lost EW to CGN. I could have seen it coming, but I'm still holding on to the small hope that it moves to DUS. At least we're still getting MAN, CDG, and DUB next year.

717atOGG wrote:

As we get closer to wrapping up the year, I thought it'd be nice to have a recap for what happened at airports in Washington, whether it's route announcements, routes starting, or other things.

SEA:
Gained AS to IND, PIT, DAL, ICT, SBP, lost COS
Gained DL to RDU, ORD, AUS, BNA, LIH, EUG, MFR, RDM, MSY next year, mainline to YVR, lost Delta Shuttle branding and LHR
Gained UA near-shuttle service to SFO, NK to BWI, IAH, and DTW plus ORD, MSP, DFW, and FLL for 2018, F9 to COS and maybe CVG, DY to LGW, AM to MEX, VS to LHR, EW to CGN, MT to MAN, AF resuming CDG, and EI to DUB for 2018, Got and lost DE to MUC and lost NK to LAX.
PAE:
Started terminal construction and got UA and AS for 2018.
BLI:
Lost AS to LAS
PSC:
Got UA E75 to DEN
GEG:
Got UA to SFO which quickly became mainline, AA to DFW, F9 to DEN, WN to SJC

That’s an impressive list. I’m assuming that AS SEA-COS will return soon. Is that correct?

Is AS BLI-LAS a permanent deletion orcwull it be back?

Also, not sure it AS did GEG-ANC this year so that might be a loss.

717atOGG wrote:

n7371f wrote:

wedgetail737 wrote:

The EMB-175's are definitely a better airliner by far than the CRJ-200's, CRJ-700's and CRJ-900's. I can't say for the EMB-190's. Anyway, I flew both DL's and AS's EMB-175 and the fact that DL is moving more of the E75's to west coast a good call!

Mostly agree. Except Compass is a hot mess - operationally and soft-product wise. They are the biggest headache for DL in the Connection carriers.

Are the airplanes more worn-out inside than the brand-new OO jets or are they similar? I know they're older, so it would be good to update their interiors if needed, or just replace them with brand-new E7Ws from OO. Either way though, at least DL can claim they're all jet from SEA. Unless the AS Q400s have a loyal following I don't know about, it seems like it'd be good to advertise.

DL owns the Compass E75's. They were ordered (and owned) by Northwest prior to merger.

The "soft" product has been updated - current seat covers, new bulkhead, 2 extra rows of Economy Comfort. But there was no work on the sidewalls and overhead bins and bathrooms. All have terrible wear and tear. Not unusual to see chipped sidewalls with exposed fiberglass & extremely worn overhead bins with chips and bad discoloration.

717atOGG wrote:

As we get closer to wrapping up the year, I thought it'd be nice to have a recap for what happened at airports in Washington, whether it's route announcements, routes starting, or other things.

SEA:
Gained AS to IND, PIT, DAL, ICT, SBP, lost COS
Gained DL to RDU, ORD, AUS, BNA, LIH, EUG, MFR, RDM, MSY next year, mainline to YVR, lost Delta Shuttle branding and LHR
Gained UA near-shuttle service to SFO, NK to BWI, IAH, and DTW plus ORD, MSP, DFW, and FLL for 2018, F9 to COS and maybe CVG, DY to LGW, AM to MEX, VS to LHR, EW to CGN, MT to MAN, AF resuming CDG, and EI to DUB for 2018, Got and lost DE to MUC and lost NK to LAX.
PAE:
Started terminal construction and got UA and AS for 2018.
BLI:
Lost AS to LAS
PSC:
Got UA E75 to DEN
GEG:
Got UA to SFO which quickly became mainline, AA to DFW, F9 to DEN, WN to SJC

From enilria's weekly schedule update, I believe SEA lost the EW flight to CGN.

I believe NK has dropped LAX. I checked wikipedia, I know, I know its not always accurate, but I see NK is only year round to BWI and LAS. I thought some of their routes were seasonal. Did SEA lose a seasonal route on NK, or was LAX the only drop. I thought they might have had 4 year round destinations at one time.

Did AS used to fly (at least seasonally) from BLI to HNL. I thought they did. Maybe you didn't include it as it wasn't dropped this year. I think BLI to OGG used to be daily. Now it is only showing as four weekly. I can't remember if it was year round, but I think it was daily when they were running it. Again, I realize this might be older than 2017, so perhaps that is why you didn't address.

Lastly, thanks for your summary.

For Pasco / Tri - Cities Airport:

This year, Pasco is on track to exceed 400,000 boardings, breaking the 2016 record of about 376,000.

http://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/loca ... 83794.html

dc10lover wrote:

For Pasco / Tri - Cities Airport:

This year, Pasco is on track to exceed 400,000 boardings, breaking the 2016 record of about 376,000.

http://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/loca ... 83794.html

This is really great to hear. When I went to school in Walla Walla 12+ years ago, you could only get to PDX, SEA and SLC from PSC. It was a big deal that one of the SLC flights was a mainline DL 737, and an even bigger deal when UA added DEN in ~2004. To go from that to double the terminal space and 45 daily flights in a relatively small market is no small feat. Didn't realize there is an MSP nonstop now. Long ride in a CRJ9, but still cool.

atcpeter wrote:

dc10lover wrote:

For Pasco / Tri - Cities Airport:

This year, Pasco is on track to exceed 400,000 boardings, breaking the 2016 record of about 376,000.

http://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/loca ... 83794.html

This is really great to hear. When I went to school in Walla Walla 12+ years ago, you could only get to PDX, SEA and SLC from PSC. It was a big deal that one of the SLC flights was a mainline DL 737, and an even bigger deal when UA added DEN in ~2004. To go from that to double the terminal space and 45 daily flights in a relatively small market is no small feat. Didn't realize there is an MSP nonstop now. Long ride in a CRJ9, but still cool.

My last ride on a 727 was PSC-SLC on DL in 2000. I also remember when DL had a mainline PSC-GEG tag on one of its SLC flights.

Im not sure if this would be appropriate in this discussion but it does involve washington state. Mods delete if needed

Anyways i was born in Kennewick and my first flight was on republic in 1982. Flew Pasco-SEA than SEA-MSP. What did RP fly on that route?

atcpeter wrote:

dc10lover wrote:

For Pasco / Tri - Cities Airport:

This year, Pasco is on track to exceed 400,000 boardings, breaking the 2016 record of about 376,000.

http://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/loca ... 83794.html

This is really great to hear. When I went to school in Walla Walla 12+ years ago, you could only get to PDX, SEA and SLC from PSC. It was a big deal that one of the SLC flights was a mainline DL 737, and an even bigger deal when UA added DEN in ~2004. To go from that to double the terminal space and 45 daily flights in a relatively small market is no small feat. Didn't realize there is an MSP nonstop now. Long ride in a CRJ9, but still cool.

I am really glad also. I hope many more airports break their 2016 record.

dc10lover wrote:

atcpeter wrote:

dc10lover wrote:

For Pasco / Tri - Cities Airport:

This year, Pasco is on track to exceed 400,000 boardings, breaking the 2016 record of about 376,000.

http://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/loca ... 83794.html

This is really great to hear. When I went to school in Walla Walla 12+ years ago, you could only get to PDX, SEA and SLC from PSC. It was a big deal that one of the SLC flights was a mainline DL 737, and an even bigger deal when UA added DEN in ~2004. To go from that to double the terminal space and 45 daily flights in a relatively small market is no small feat. Didn't realize there is an MSP nonstop now. Long ride in a CRJ9, but still cool.

I am really glad also. I hope many more airports break their 2016 record.

SEA definitely should. I think BLI will probably drop a little bit with AS dropping LAS and G4 no longer being 3x daily to LAS. GEG should increase though with AA adding DFW and UA adding SFO and ORD, among other adds IIRC.

Sorry that I didn't find this until now, but SEA-CVG on F9 isn't happening due to lack of aircraft. Hopefully it'll be re-announced in S19, but on the bright side, according to Wikipedia (not the most reliable of sources, but still) DL is making the route year-round. This is a welcome change since the route has been pulling 90+% loads in the summer.
Source: (partially behind paywall) https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/ ... -from.html

Originally I thought Eurowings was not going to offer the SEA-CGN service next summer. But according to Eurowings' website, it appears to be coming back in June 2018 with 2X weekly flights.

wedgetail737 wrote:

Originally I thought Eurowings was not going to offer the SEA-CGN service next summer. But according to Eurowings' website, it appears to be coming back in June 2018 with 2X weekly flights.

Oh, that's good. I still wish it would move to DUS, but the onward connections from CGN probably help a bit in filling up the flight, and cruise traffic is probably also a big reason for it. The fares seem to be pretty reasonable too, about $650 RT in July.

Seattle will break a record for 2017 and I read Spokane will too. All of the Summer flights out of Spokane really helped increase the numbers.

dc10lover wrote:

Seattle will break a record for 2017 and I read Spokane will too. All of the Summer flights out of Spokane really helped increase the numbers.

2018 is going to be very busy year for SEA...if you think 2017 was busy. DL will be replacing a lot of their RJ flights with mainline...especially out of SFO. I think we'll see additional action from AS as well.

Internationally, it's going to be even more hectic! You have AF returning with 777-200ER's in March. Also DL will be replacing the A330-300 with the 777-200ER's on SEA-CDG route and a 777-200ER replacing the A330-200 on the SEA-HKG route. My guess is that the shuffle is due to the introduction of their A350-900's.

Keep going, we have EI starting the SEA-DUB and Thomas Cook starting in June to MAN. As I mentioned earlier, Eurowings will bring back the SEA-CGN route. Norwegian has mentioned starting a new route or two from SEA...in addition to their existing SEA-LGW route.

Lastly, I heard EK will reinstate the morning SEA-DXB flight and BR might reinstate the morning SEA-TPE flight. MF plans to increase SEA-SZX from 3X to 4X weekly.

This is on top of the normal increase in service for Seattle's peak season!

Did I miss anything?

I am hoping for an Asian carrier to announce new service to SEA. Strong rumors include TG and CI.

wedgetail737 wrote:

dc10lover wrote:

Seattle will break a record for 2017 and I read Spokane will too. All of the Summer flights out of Spokane really helped increase the numbers.

2018 is going to be very busy year for SEA...if you think 2017 was busy. DL will be replacing a lot of their RJ flights with mainline...especially out of SFO. I think we'll see additional action from AS as well.

Internationally, it's going to be even more hectic! You have AF returning with 777-200ER's in March. Also DL will be replacing the A330-300 with the 777-200ER's on SEA-CDG route and a 777-200ER replacing the A330-200 on the SEA-HKG route. My guess is that the shuffle is due to the introduction of their A350-900's.

Keep going, we have EI starting the SEA-DUB and Thomas Cook starting in June to MAN. As I mentioned earlier, Eurowings will bring back the SEA-CGN route. Norwegian has mentioned starting a new route or two from SEA...in addition to their existing SEA-LGW route.

Lastly, I heard EK will reinstate the morning SEA-DXB flight and BR might reinstate the morning SEA-TPE flight. MF plans to increase SEA-SZX from 3X to 4X weekly.

This is on top of the normal increase in service for Seattle's peak season!

Did I miss anything?

I am hoping for an Asian carrier to announce new service to SEA. Strong rumors include TG and CI.

About DL, they're now delaying MKE mainline to June, and AS is now going mainline on the route in March now. As mentioned before, CVG is moving to year-round and YVR gains mainline on a single 738. I'm curious to hear how AF does, and if they do well, hopefully we see KLM take over a SEA-AMS flight with a 787. SEA-DUB should be a strong performer, and SEA-MAN only runs for a short season (late May-early August) so it looks to only be built on cruise traffic. I'd be intrigued to hear what DY has planned for SEA. CDG is probably off the table now that AF will be on it, however. I'm also curious about EK as their loads aren't too good here, but if the second daily flight would be for cargo, it could be worth it. BR has also struggled with 2x daily, but if they have some cargo contract I don't know about, again, would be logical to move back to 2x. MF going to 4x weekly is a good sign, and it makes HU adding SEA-CTU or CKG look realistic with the AS codeshare. About the new Asian carrier I'd expect TG as they announced the intention to serve SEA a few months ago. I'd expect it to be nonstop with a 789 as opposed to via ICN like past rumors suggested just because SEA-ICN is a crowded market. In a perfect world they'd codeshare with AS but I'm not crossing my fingers because IIRC AS doesn't codeshare with many *A members. Other than above mentioned DL mainline adds you didn't miss anything. Thanks for the summary!

With 2017 now ending, I thought it'd be nice to list some predictions for 2018 about Washington state aviation. Personally I'm dividing my predictions into realistic and less realistic categories. I could see almost all realistic things happening and could maybe imagine a few, but not all less realistic stuff happening.

SEA:
Realistic:
-AS restarts SEA-COS, announces a SEA-Ohio flight, announces SEA-DSM on E175
-DL announces/starts PHL, WAS, DFW or IAH on A319/738, MCI or STL and ABQ on E175, adds some mainline on SJC, SMF, and SNA, and upgauges NRT back to A333
-UA goes all E175 on SEA-LAX
-WN adds SEA-LAX
-NK adds SEA-OAK/PHX, goes year-round on ORD, DFW, IAH
-F9 re-announces CVG for S19
-DY adds SEA-OSL
-KE cuts SEA-ICN due to poor loads (40-60%)
Less realistic:
-DL adds SEA-OAK/BUR on E175, makes TUS and MSY year-round
-WOW Air adds SEA-KEF
-CX adds SEA-HKG
-TG adds SEA-BKK
-HU adds SEA-CTU or CKG on 788
-MT extends the season for SEA-MAN during S19
-Port of Seattle announces a new terminal either as an extension of D or expansion of S
GEG, PSC, etc:
Realistic:
-DL goes mainline on GEG-LAX
-AS announces PAE-PDX/GEG/SFO/LAX/HNL
-AA adds PSC-PHX
-UA adds EAT-SFO
Less realistic:
-WN announces GEG-BWI (if ABQ can get it, GEG for S19 on a 73G might not be too unrealistic)
-AA or UA announces seasonal PSC-ORD on a E175 beginning S19

717atOGG wrote:

With 2017 now ending, I thought it'd be nice to list some predictions for 2018 about Washington state aviation. Personally I'm dividing my predictions into realistic and less realistic categories. I could see almost all realistic things happening and could maybe imagine a few, but not all less realistic stuff happening.

SEA:
Realistic:
-AS restarts SEA-COS, announces a SEA-Ohio flight, announces SEA-DSM on E175
-DL announces/starts PHL, WAS, DFW or IAH on A319/738, MCI or STL and ABQ on E175, adds some mainline on SJC, SMF, and SNA, and upgauges NRT back to A333
-UA goes all E175 on SEA-LAX
-WN adds SEA-LAX
-NK adds SEA-OAK/PHX, goes year-round on ORD, DFW, IAH
-F9 re-announces CVG for S19
-DY adds SEA-OSL
-KE cuts SEA-ICN due to poor loads (40-60%)
Less realistic:
-DL adds SEA-OAK/BUR on E175, makes TUS and MSY year-round
-WOW Air adds SEA-KEF
-CX adds SEA-HKG
-TG adds SEA-BKK
-HU adds SEA-CTU or CKG on 788
-MT extends the season for SEA-MAN during S19
-Port of Seattle announces a new terminal either as an extension of D or expansion of S
GEG, PSC, etc:
Realistic:
-DL goes mainline on GEG-LAX
-AS announces PAE-PDX/GEG/SFO/LAX/HNL
-AA adds PSC-PHX
-UA adds EAT-SFO
Less realistic:
-WN announces GEG-BWI (if ABQ can get it, GEG for S19 on a 73G might not be too unrealistic)
-AA or UA announces seasonal PSC-ORD on a E175 beginning S19

Do you think KE would end SEA-ICN, or DL cede it to KE? What are Asiana’s numbers compared to KE?

DL's only issue with SEA is the lack of gate space to do any significant expansion. They are seeking any gate opportunities in S, B and A concourses. I think there is space for additional international carriers, just not between 10am to 2pm. Because pax can be pre-screened at DUB, EI can easily use any widebody gate for ops...probably the end of A Concourse.

717atOGG wrote:

With 2017 now ending, I thought it'd be nice to list some predictions for 2018 about Washington state aviation. Personally I'm dividing my predictions into realistic and less realistic categories. I could see almost all realistic things happening and could maybe imagine a few, but not all less realistic stuff happening.

SEA:
Realistic:
-AS restarts SEA-COS, announces a SEA-Ohio flight, announces SEA-DSM on E175
-DL announces/starts PHL, WAS, DFW or IAH on A319/738, MCI or STL and ABQ on E175, adds some mainline on SJC, SMF, and SNA, and upgauges NRT back to A333
-UA goes all E175 on SEA-LAX
-WN adds SEA-LAX
-NK adds SEA-OAK/PHX, goes year-round on ORD, DFW, IAH
-F9 re-announces CVG for S19
-DY adds SEA-OSL
-KE cuts SEA-ICN due to poor loads (40-60%)
Less realistic:
-DL adds SEA-OAK/BUR on E175, makes TUS and MSY year-round
-WOW Air adds SEA-KEF
-CX adds SEA-HKG
-TG adds SEA-BKK
-HU adds SEA-CTU or CKG on 788
-MT extends the season for SEA-MAN during S19
-Port of Seattle announces a new terminal either as an extension of D or expansion of S
GEG, PSC, etc:
Realistic:
-DL goes mainline on GEG-LAX
-AS announces PAE-PDX/GEG/SFO/LAX/HNL
-AA adds PSC-PHX
-UA adds EAT-SFO
Less realistic:
-WN announces GEG-BWI (if ABQ can get it, GEG for S19 on a 73G might not be too unrealistic)
-AA or UA announces seasonal PSC-ORD on a E175 beginning S19

Top priority for the Port of Pasco is to secure at least seasonal (and ideally daily) service to LAX. The largest domestic travel destination for the PSC catchment area is SoCal, with Mexico being the top international destination. With big construction projects ahead at SEA, and the main terminal work coming up at PDX, a strong case could be made for AS and DL to provide PSC-LAX with E175. A darkhorse could be UA.

I just don't see PSC-ORD...maybe PSC-PHX, as we have a large and growing retirement community here. The newly remodeled PSC is wonderful...I love traveling through here now, and its my new home airport. Within 10-20 years, I think we'll see more gates added, and possibly an international destination in Mexico (GDL, MEX, CUN). PSC has two runways that are approx. 7,700' x 150' each, which are the same as OGG, meaning we could handle aircraft like 767, 787, even 777. Only challenge with larger aircraft like those would be weight restrictions during the summer months here.

Surprised to see KE is doing so poorly in SEA. My guess is that they cede it to DL, but in exchange, DL cedes PDX-NRT, and KE moves in to serve ICN-PDX with 787 or A330.

I think DL will cede to KE and start moving passengers to KE as part of their JV. KE has a much better product than DL's 767-300 and I'm pretty sure DL knows that. It's kind of like DL ceding to VA on the SEA-LHR route. KE opening or moving to PDX is a pipe dream. KE's load factor is only suffering because the 777-300ER is just too big for the market with all the competition. However, I wonder what KE is thinking? Maybe KE will reduce their capacity by reinstating either 777-200ER or an A330-200. Maybe SEA-ICN will become a 787-9 market.

What have KE's load factors been to SEA this year on a monthly basis? I flew them in September/October and the loads were pretty poor, but it was also the Chuseok holiday week which may have affected travel patterns.

I hope they don't leave SEA as their product/service is just phenomenal.

BA wrote:

What have KE's load factors been to SEA this year on a monthly basis? I flew them in September/October and the loads were pretty poor, but it was also the Chuseok holiday week which may have affected travel patterns.

I hope they don't leave SEA as their product/service is just phenomenal.

I'm not denying that their product is great, but I think that they will either downgauge, have DL end their SEA-ICN flight, which I believe is most likely, or end their flight then have DL upgauge its flight. From January to May of 2017 KE had loads in the high-60s and 81% in June which isn't that good. I overestimated how bad they were doing and I apologize for that, but KE still is not really thriving on SEA-ICN, compared to OZ and DL. OZ had an average of 77% in those 6 months which is somewhat better, and I haven't seen exact loads for DL but seat maps in January look full and fares are high. With that in mind, I alter my prediction to that DL ends their SEA-ICN flight and KE takes over, kind of like what VS did with LHR. KE should have no trouble filling up a daily 77W then.

717atOGG wrote:

Less realistic:
-MT extends the season for SEA-MAN during S19

I think this is right, the aircraft MT will use on the route is leased from "air tanker" which has no IFE. For a 10 (or thereabouts) hour sector, that is a major issue.

I'd be surprised if MT bring the route back next year, but lets see how the loads look this summer.

*FI SEA-KEF MAY 1.7>3 JUN 1.8>3 JUL 1.9>3 AUG 1.8>3 SEP 1.7>3

FI is 3x daily on SEA-KEF now. Absolutely crazy. I don't know if even JFK or BOS have this much frequency. It isn't showing up in bookings, but I'd assume one early-morning departure from SEA and two near-simultaneous departures in the late afternoon. I'd expect that they're all on 752. Clearly FI is doing well in SEA, and they have loads in the 90's during the summer. What really gets me is that now, KEF is the most frequently served European destination from SEA.

Washington State Air Service Discussion 2018 is now open for discussion. Please continue to add your comments there.

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