United relaunches DEN-LHR

LAXintl · Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:55 pm

Hopefully does better this time around.

Seasonal effective March 2018 with 788.

http://newsroom.united.com/2017-07-26-M ... and-London

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787fan8 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:02 pm

First Edelweiss, then Norwegian and now this. It's great to see DEN getting these new TATL services.

jetmatt777 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:03 pm

With the surging growth of Denver I am hopeful this goes year round, eventually.

Of note Scott Kirby and Jon Roitman are in town today to announce this, as well as petition the city and mayor to halt the Great Hall project

MIAFLLPBIFlyer · Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:08 pm

No shock.

Eirules · Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:08 pm

About time, BA have had it to themselves for too long. Maybe it might quiten some of the Brexit doomers too

LAXdude1023 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:10 pm

Where is the slot coming from?

This seems more of a shot across the bow to Norwegian than anything.

CrawleyBen · Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:16 pm

[threeid][/threeid]

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Where is the slot coming from?

This seems more of a shot across the bow to Norwegian than anything.

I've never flown on either airline myself, but who thinks is likely to see more demand out of UA and DY on this route?

I'm guessing DY in terms of price, but in terms of product would UA come out on top?

Just curious in respect of the above and nothing more.

Cheers

Ben

ual763 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:16 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:

Of note Scott Kirby and Jon Roitman are in town today to announce this, as well as petition the city and mayor to halt the Great Hall project

Just out of curiosity, what is the Great Hall Project?

drdisque · Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:20 pm

With seasonal service they must have some agreement with the LH group to utilize the slot in the Winter.

jetmatt777 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:21 pm

ual763 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

Of note Scott Kirby and Jon Roitman are in town today to announce this, as well as petition the city and mayor to halt the Great Hall project

Just out of curiosity, what is the Great Hall Project?

Covered in a different thread (can't find it at the moment) but essentially a plan to relocate security to the 6th floor and add post-security shopping and concessions to the current security checkpoint areas.

ADent · Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:21 pm

ual763 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

Of note Scott Kirby and Jon Roitman are in town today to announce this, as well as petition the city and mayor to halt the Great Hall project

Just out of curiosity, what is the Great Hall Project?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1364979&p=19689371

KTPAFlyer · Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:23 pm

Will be interesting to see two competing feeds, UA at DEN and BA at LHR. The interesting thing is that in terms of connections, they actually compete in different markets. That said, DEN-LON is getting crowded! Not too long ago, it was just BA and now it's BA, DY, and UA!

TheLion · Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:26 pm

Long overdue in my view. Will quieten a few a.netters who thought it wouldn't happen. Great to see DEN get some love and attract new service.

ual763 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:26 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
ual763 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

Of note Scott Kirby and Jon Roitman are in town today to announce this, as well as petition the city and mayor to halt the Great Hall project

Just out of curiosity, what is the Great Hall Project?

Covered in a different thread (can't find it at the moment) but essentially a plan to relocate security to the 6th floor and add post-security shopping and concessions to the current security checkpoint areas.

Thanks for that! Unfortunately, google is blocked at my current workplace. I wonder why United would be opposed to the airport refreshing the interior layout of T2, unless the airport will pass the cost onto United and the other carriers. But regardless, this is great news for DIA!

msycajun · Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:27 pm

United has such a huge hub at DEN that it was crazy that it took this long (and another competitor) to re-enter DEN-LHR. They could easily fill a 788 with mostly connections and loyal UA fliers.

intotheair · Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:34 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
No shock.

I certainly am! DEN has been doing very well lately, but most people who have been following it didn't think UA would bring back DEN-LHR just because it's LHR, and that a LHR slot would make more money from another hub out east.

I am happy to see that it's back. A 2-class 788 is probably the right airplane for this route — much more suitable than the 3-class 772 that flew it in the PMUA and early merger days. Too bad it's not year-round, but maybe they're just testing the waters again.

This should give DY a hard time.

MIAFLLPBIFlyer · Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:40 pm

I think DY had to expect this retaliation though perhaps thinking was UA wouldn't waste a LHR slot on DEN.

jetmatt777 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:42 pm

ual763 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
ual763 wrote:

Just out of curiosity, what is the Great Hall Project?

Covered in a different thread (can't find it at the moment) but essentially a plan to relocate security to the 6th floor and add post-security shopping and concessions to the current security checkpoint areas.

Thanks for that! Unfortunately, google is blocked at my current workplace. I wonder why United would be opposed to the airport refreshing the interior layout of T2, unless the airport will pass the cost onto United and the other carriers. But regardless, this is great news for DIA!

United and the signatory airlines believe that spending money on the main terminal is a waste of time as people prefer to be on the concourses before their flights. They'd rather the airport renovate the concourses and add retail and restaurants there where they will be of much better use. Unless you get to the airport rediculiusly early, I think the terminal concessions post-security won't see a lot of business. I agree with the airlines that amenities need to be near the gates and not a train ride away.

LAXintl · Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:49 pm

Loads were never an issue with the route previously.
UA managed high load factors and broad feed from across the mountain West.
The issue was always yield and traffic mix with flight filled by vacationers and very few premium business travelers.

intotheair · Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:00 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Loads were never an issue with the route previously.
UA managed high load factors and broad feed from across the mountain West.
The issue was always yield and traffic mix with flight filled by vacationers and very few premium business travelers.

And I always thought one reason why it could never really attract business/premium traffic is that UA never flew it year-round. BA has for 20 years. And how much of it was truly a yield/revenue issue so much as it was just that it couldn't justify the use of a LHR slot?

I also think it's important to note that the 3-cabin 772 was just not the right plane for this route, but PMUA didn't really have anything else to fly it with. I can't imagine they sold very many F seats. As I recall, the 763 from DEN in the summer would have faced too many penalties. I'd like to think that the 788 may be just the right equipment for DEN-LHR. In a similar vein, UA was somewhat apprehensive about ever starting DEN-NRT until the 788 came around.

WaywardMemphian · Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:04 pm

CrawleyBen wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Where is the slot coming from?

This seems more of a shot across the bow to Norwegian than anything.

I've never flown on either airline myself, but who thinks is likely to see more demand out of UA and DY on this route?

I'm guessing DY in terms of price, but in terms of product would UA come out on top?

Just curious in respect of the above and nothing more.

Cheers

Ben

I would be flying into Denver for DY, Now it depends on United's Pricing and reward availibilty. I gather this is solely in response to DY but will hurt BA more.

OneSexyL1011 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:35 pm

This is the perfect plane for this route. Pre-merger wise the 777 was too much and the 763 was too weak performance wise.

slcdeltarumd11 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:04 pm

I guess when i really think about this one maybe this is the opportunity UA needed. There whole problem was BA was too established in DEN and committed to year round. With prices about to plummet and Norwegian on the scene, and given who chaotic BA is right now, UA may see this as the opportunity to push BA out of the Denver market and go year round daily. Just them and Norwegian s plenty of seats for DEN-LHR they might be able to push BA out courtesy of their competitor killing leisure fares. United has most of the business market already in Denver.

WaywardMemphian · Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:27 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I guess when i really think about this one maybe this is the opportunity UA needed. There whole problem was BA was too established in DEN and committed to year round. With prices about to plummet and Norwegian on the scene, and given who chaotic BA is right now, UA may see this as the opportunity to push BA out of the Denver market and go year round daily. Just them and Norwegian s plenty of seats for DEN-LHR they might be able to push BA out courtesy of their competitor killing leisure fares. United has most of the business market already in Denver.

If BA loses share and dumps, does BNA or STL benefit?

MIflyer12 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:28 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I guess when i really think about this one maybe this is the opportunity UA needed. There whole problem was BA was too established in DEN and committed to year round. With prices about to plummet and Norwegian on the scene, and given who chaotic BA is right now, UA may see this as the opportunity to push BA out of the Denver market and go year round daily. Just them and Norwegian s plenty of seats for DEN-LHR they might be able to push BA out courtesy of their competitor killing leisure fares. United has most of the business market already in Denver.

UA is going to drive off BA with a seasonal flight? I don't think so. There's good Denver-London O&D and demand beyond London to places not served by the UA network.

fry530 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:28 pm

Wow, this is quite interesting. At the beginning of the year our TATL service was only LHR, KEF, FRA, and MUC. This time next year we will have FRA, MUC, KEF, LHR (on UA and BA!), LGW, CDG, and ZRH! It's nice to see UA being competitive and trying to offer something on their own metal across the pond. I just hope BA can keep bringing the 747 here as well. Pretty exciting to see how much international service we have gained here in Denver!

Kden95 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:35 pm

I wonder if British Airways will go to a 787 or a 777. It's nice to see Denver get the additional international flights, I just hope it's not much at once.

caverunner17 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:47 pm

So that's 2/12 788's in Denver now. I assume they're going to do a W routing somehow - SFO-DEN-NRT-DEN-LHR-SFO

IrishAyes · Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:57 pm

BA does fine at DEN. It has been a 744 for some time now. It provides plenty of feed into LHR which has a huge connecting hub on the other end. It also hasn't been impacted by LH to FRA nor the entrance of LH to MUC.

BA will not dump DEN for STL or BNA.

subramak1 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:02 pm

I think the 744 is a ski season service. It reverts to 772 in summer. could be wrong

Subu

fry530 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:05 pm

subramak1 wrote:
I think the 744 is a ski season service. It reverts to 772 in summer. could be wrong

Subu

Nope, 744 is year-round. It was a year-round 772 for a long time, but they switched it to a 744 in 2015.

airfrnt · Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:13 pm

Wow. I am really shocked at this. There is just a immense amount of TATL traffic that has been added. That said, I have a flight in two weeks to London, and a economy plus seat on BA was quoted out at $11k.

slider · Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:17 pm

OneSexyL1011 wrote:
This is the perfect plane for this route. Pre-merger wise the 777 was too much and the 763 was too weak performance wise.

Yup- that's my thought precisely. 787-8 is perfect--would have the range, payload at DEN elevation, and just right amount of seats to work.

rajincajun01 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:19 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I guess when i really think about this one maybe this is the opportunity UA needed. There whole problem was BA was too established in DEN and committed to year round. With prices about to plummet and Norwegian on the scene, and given who chaotic BA is right now, UA may see this as the opportunity to push BA out of the Denver market and go year round daily. Just them and Norwegian s plenty of seats for DEN-LHR they might be able to push BA out courtesy of their competitor killing leisure fares. United has most of the business market already in Denver.

If BA loses share and dumps, does BNA or STL benefit?

Why does the a.net world think everything revolves around BNA getting TATL service? DEN's LHR service has NOTHING to do with BNA.

Back on topic, it will be tough for all three carriers to be successful to LON at these levels. I see BA dropping back to a 777 at some point.

NichCage · Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:36 pm

Denver is doing pretty good with gaining new European flights. Lufthansa to Munich, Edelweiss to Zurich, Norwegian to Paris-CDG, and now United to London.

11725Flyer · Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Are there any incentives associated with any of the new flights?

diatraveler · Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:38 pm

BA has traditionally carried a lot of freight on the DEN-LHR route which helps when passenger loads fluctuate.
January 2017 - 369,884 lbs.
December 2016 - 342,971 lbs.
November 2016 - 308,121 lbs.
October 2016 - 421,445 lbs.

Stats from Aviation database

intotheair · Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:39 pm

I'm sure BA will be fine. They have flown a 744 on DEN-LHR/LGW at least in the summer months for most of the route's existence, and in the winter, they'll only be going up against 2/3x weekly DY.

This is more of an effort to chase DY out of the market. I think it's not necessarily a coincidence that UA announced this a week after DY announced CDG in addition to LGW before it even started. UA is cutting back on one EWR frequency to do DEN-LHR, so they must really think this is a fight worth fighting.

11725Flyer wrote:
Are there any incentives associated with any of the new flights?

Colorado is giving incentives to DY for DEN-CDG, but I don't think anything else is. DEN offered incentives to UA for DEN-NRT a few years ago, though it was tied up in a renegotiated lease at the airport, so I'm not sure if it was outright cash so much as it was a sweetheart deal to keep the UA DEN hub. I think BA and LH had their landing fees waived for the first year or so when they came to DEN too.

77H · Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:52 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
ual763 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

Covered in a different thread (can't find it at the moment) but essentially a plan to relocate security to the 6th floor and add post-security shopping and concessions to the current security checkpoint areas.

Thanks for that! Unfortunately, google is blocked at my current workplace. I wonder why United would be opposed to the airport refreshing the interior layout of T2, unless the airport will pass the cost onto United and the other carriers. But regardless, this is great news for DIA!

United and the signatory airlines believe that spending money on the main terminal is a waste of time as people prefer to be on the concourses before their flights. They'd rather the airport renovate the concourses and add retail and restaurants there where they will be of much better use. Unless you get to the airport rediculiusly early, I think the terminal concessions post-security won't see a lot of business. I agree with the airlines that amenities need to be near the gates and not a train ride away.

The airport and the airlines both have valid arguments. The airport is trying to bring in more revenue by making itself a destination in and of itself. Increased revenues will likely benefit both the airports and tenants if successfuly. On the other hand, the airlines have a point that most travelers arrive at the airport and go straight through security and head for the concourses. For the majority of people arriving into DEN they head from the concourse to curbside as quick as possible. DEN is an O&D heavy airport and while the airport is designed well for connections, I agree that added concessions in the main terminal aren't likely to attract too many people on layover unless they have a several hours. Passengers on connection often get off their arriving flight and beeline to their next gate, maybe stopping at a restaurant or retail outlet along the way to their gate. Moreover, unless DEN does a great deal of advertising in the concourses how will passengers on layover know about amenities in the main terminal?

77H

jhsusman · Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:10 pm

I believe the A concourse has 4 widebody international arrival gates at DEN - how are late afternoons going to work? LH's Frankfurt, Munich, United's LHR, Norwegian's GTW/CDG, Edelweiss's ZRH and BA's LHR all are scheduled to arrive around the same time on many days. Plus you have the regular Mexico / Costa Rica / Belize arrivals plus up to two Iceland departures daily. . . Maybe they will start to tow the United and LH planes over to the B concourse after everyone deplanes. . .

OzarkD9S · Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:18 pm

There are plenty of good Star connections at LHR as well, with most (if not all?) Star airlines at LHR operating from T2, UA should get plenty of feed there as well. I'm surprised UA waited this long to bring it back.

skipness1E · Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:24 pm

So, where's the slot coming from? Did United have a summer slot on lease to someone? Be good to see the B788s back at LHR.

slcdeltarumd11 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:29 pm

788 is the perfect plane for this route.

United might be seasonal right now, but with a 788 i could see them go year round if/when bookings look good. Fall 2018 is along time away for scheduling.

United787 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:33 pm

IrishAyes wrote:
BA does fine at DEN. It has been a 744 for some time now. It provides plenty of feed into LHR which has a huge connecting hub on the other end. It also hasn't been impacted by LH to FRA nor the entrance of LH to MUC.

BA will not dump DEN for STL or BNA.

I wonder what will happen when Brexit takes effect... not just for the BA DEN route. If BA loses the ease of connection to the EU at LHR, that could be devastating for BA.

FlyHossD · Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:42 pm

skipness1E wrote:
So, where's the slot coming from? Did United have a summer slot on lease to someone? Be good to see the B788s back at LHR.

According to an earlier post, the slot will come from EWR.

VC10er · Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:55 pm

Wow, my friends (all professional friends BTW) in Denver, Boulder and Ft Collins are thrilled with this news. My friends travel to London/Europe all the time (in paid business) and often connect to other cities on Star carriers. They hated the connection through IAD, IAH, EWR and ORD. I would think that given so many people in the area are MileagePlus members they would even pay a bit more for United just for mile accrual and status. Also, whatever the flight time is, it will be better than EWR or IAD as you will have more time to eat and get more than 3/4 hours of sleep before a meeting.

I too think that this is perfect for the 788 (because I know so much about fleet deployment) also, I wouldn't be surprised to see that 788 being up gauged in the future as the route matures.

Bravo...I love seeing red lines on the map in HEMISPHERES

Arion640 · Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:55 pm

United787 wrote:
IrishAyes wrote:
BA does fine at DEN. It has been a 744 for some time now. It provides plenty of feed into LHR which has a huge connecting hub on the other end. It also hasn't been impacted by LH to FRA nor the entrance of LH to MUC.

BA will not dump DEN for STL or BNA.

I wonder what will happen when Brexit takes effect... not just for the BA DEN route. If BA loses the ease of connection to the EU at LHR, that could be devastating for BA.

If BA lose the connections from the EU then LH, AF and especially KL lose all their UK feed too. KLM fly to more UK airports than any other airline.

jetero · Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:36 pm

intotheair wrote:
Colorado is giving incentives to DY for DEN-CDG, but I don't think anything else is. DEN offered incentives to UA for DEN-NRT a few years ago, though it was tied up in a renegotiated lease at the airport, so I'm not sure if it was outright cash so much as it was a sweetheart deal to keep the UA DEN hub. I think BA and LH had their landing fees waived for the first year or so when they came to DEN too.

Cash subsidies of routes by U.S. airports is illegal. The airport effectively extended credits to UA that it was eligible for only if it met ASM targets.

Straight out landing fee abatement is allowed only for the first 2 years of a route's operation. And they don't make a bit of difference to an airline like BA or LH (not that they won't happily accept them).

phluser · Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:11 pm

jetero wrote:
intotheair wrote:
Colorado is giving incentives to DY for DEN-CDG, but I don't think anything else is. DEN offered incentives to UA for DEN-NRT a few years ago, though it was tied up in a renegotiated lease at the airport, so I'm not sure if it was outright cash so much as it was a sweetheart deal to keep the UA DEN hub. I think BA and LH had their landing fees waived for the first year or so when they came to DEN too.

Cash subsidies of routes by U.S. airports is illegal. The airport effectively extended credits to UA that it was eligible for only if it met ASM targets.

Straight out landing fee abatement is allowed only for the first 2 years of a route's operation. And they don't make a bit of difference to an airline like BA or LH (not that they won't happily accept them).

Hasn't Maryland subsidized the British Airways flight out of BWI?
https://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/n ... ar-to.html

jetero · Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:46 pm

phluser wrote:
jetero wrote:
intotheair wrote:
Colorado is giving incentives to DY for DEN-CDG, but I don't think anything else is. DEN offered incentives to UA for DEN-NRT a few years ago, though it was tied up in a renegotiated lease at the airport, so I'm not sure if it was outright cash so much as it was a sweetheart deal to keep the UA DEN hub. I think BA and LH had their landing fees waived for the first year or so when they came to DEN too.

Cash subsidies of routes by U.S. airports is illegal. The airport effectively extended credits to UA that it was eligible for only if it met ASM targets.

Straight out landing fee abatement is allowed only for the first 2 years of a route's operation. And they don't make a bit of difference to an airline like BA or LH (not that they won't happily accept them).

Hasn't Maryland subsidized the British Airways flight out of BWI?
https://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/n ... ar-to.html

They're grandfathered under the FAA as a State agency running BWI. PANYNJ, too, but for different reasons--they can use airport monies to subsidize other modes. A couple of other exceptions, but not the case for DEN.

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