I am wondering if BOS will eventually pass CVG for DL? Once WN moves out of Terminal A at BOS (supposed to be in late 2018) that'll open up 5 more mainline gates to DL to expand a bit more.

B752OS wrote:

I am wondering if BOS will eventually pass CVG for DL? Once WN moves out of Terminal A at BOS (supposed to be in late 2018) that'll open up 5 more mainline gates to DL to expand a bit more.

By daily flights it already has, not sure about seats.

Varsity1 wrote:

AA will probably scale back PHL and either PHX or LAX.

I doubt it. PHL is one of the largest cities in the US with a huge catchment area, and AA has the run of the place. Besides, no slots (unlike the nearby NYC airports) or competition. PHL allows AA to run much of the Northeast.

TransWorldOne wrote:

AT&T moved their world HQ from San Antonio to Dallas. The top reason cited? Not enough nonstop destinations served from SAT.

Same with La Quinta around the year 2000 FWIW.

grbauc wrote:

alasizon wrote:

acentauri wrote:

AA will probably scale back PHL CLT and either PHX or LAX.

Just curious, whats your basis for a CLT drawdown based on? CLT may have relatively low O&D but it is setup great for a massive connection hub and the cost per enplanement makes it very attractive.

Yea I'm wondering also it's appears to be a gem of a hub for AA and US before. Just because it's international role is not the same now with MIA GATWAY and JFK gatway plus ORD.

AA (and US before them) really seem to like the CLT hub due to low fees, thus making it possible to keep it profitably more easily for connecting traffic. Certainly, AA nowadays tries to push through CLT on itineraries from NYC to all kinds of places. Even DTW and YYZ!!!!

Varsity1 wrote:

AA will probably scale back PHL and either PHX or LAX.

I don't see AA reducing PHL. It is their biggest northeast hub and main TATL gateway. If anything, I think AA would dehub JFK instead.

PHX is going nowhere. It serves a growing metro area and is AA's only hub for western USA connections (LAX doesn't have room to handle PHX's traffic). Plus, AA's CEO spent over a decade with PHX as his airline's headquarters, so he understands the PHX market and how to make a hub work.

LAX future depends on how the TPAC routes perform - a recession or rise in fuel prices could make some TPAC routes unviable.

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

WWads wrote:

Sigh. CVG is still a hub, regardless of what people on the internet think. It's still banked, and has more daily departures than RDU or BOS.

Mainline: Atlanta, Boston, Denver, Detroit, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Orlando, Paris–Charles de Gaulle, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Tampa
Seasonal: Cancún, New York–JFK, New York–LaGuardia, Seattle/Tacoma, Washington–National

Delta Connection: Baltimore, Boston, Charlotte, Chicago–O'Hare, Dallas/Fort Worth, Detroit, Fayetteville/Bentonville, Hartford, Houston–Intercontinental, Kansas City, Memphis, Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Nashville, New York–JFK, New York–LaGuardia, Newark, Philadelphia, Raleigh/Durham, St. Louis, Toronto–Pearson, Washington–National
Seasonal: Denver, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Tampa

DL maintains a small hub there due to strong O/D demand, along with some connection traffic (as high as 20%).

In terms of the topic, I previously thought that PHX would be at risk, but with LAX being a perpetual mess, and AA already having a weak presence in the western part of the country, I think it survives, and perhaps sees some expansion. AS being forced to distance itself from AA makes this even more likely IMO.

Also corporate traffic. CVG has some corporate clients of DL. They've right-sized the operation. It hasn't been great for the airport or the region but it's actually quite logical now. CVG has enough O&D to support this sort of focus city/mini-hub operation unlike MEM which didn't have that and was purely a connecting hub (more or less) for NW.

It's got to be O&D. Trying to make connections in CVG is next to impossible, depending on the city pairings.

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

WWads wrote:

Sigh. CVG is still a hub, regardless of what people on the internet think. It's still banked, and has more daily departures than RDU or BOS.

Mainline: Atlanta, Boston, Denver, Detroit, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Orlando, Paris–Charles de Gaulle, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Tampa
Seasonal: Cancún, New York–JFK, New York–LaGuardia, Seattle/Tacoma, Washington–National

Delta Connection: Baltimore, Boston, Charlotte, Chicago–O'Hare, Dallas/Fort Worth, Detroit, Fayetteville/Bentonville, Hartford, Houston–Intercontinental, Kansas City, Memphis, Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Nashville, New York–JFK, New York–LaGuardia, Newark, Philadelphia, Raleigh/Durham, St. Louis, Toronto–Pearson, Washington–National
Seasonal: Denver, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Tampa

DL maintains a small hub there due to strong O/D demand, along with some connection traffic (as high as 20%).

In terms of the topic, I previously thought that PHX would be at risk, but with LAX being a perpetual mess, and AA already having a weak presence in the western part of the country, I think it survives, and perhaps sees some expansion. AS being forced to distance itself from AA makes this even more likely IMO.

Also corporate traffic. CVG has some corporate clients of DL. They've right-sized the operation. It hasn't been great for the airport or the region but it's actually quite logical now. CVG has enough O&D to support this sort of focus city/mini-hub operation unlike MEM which didn't have that and was purely a connecting hub (more or less) for NW.

It's got to be O&D. Trying to make connections in CVG is next to impossible, depending on the city pairings.

grbauc wrote:

No need for closures, the big 3 have pretty good equilibrium has noted up tread. I think the future growth for American Airlines and possibly even United Airlines will be in smaller focus cities small and little hubs. Delta is by means of needs doing this. AA and UA will catch on.

A point that was made in a previous thread was that Delta has focus cities because many of their hubs are not in the top major metro areas of the US (MSP, SLC, CVG, and even DTW and SEA) while AA has 7 hubs in top major metro areas such as Chicago, Dallas, LA, S. Florida, NYC, WAS, and PHL...all mega cities. Same with UA's 5 hubs namely IAH, WAS, LA, NYC, and Chicago.

1 New York-Newark-Jersey City, NY-NJ-PA Metropolitan Statistical Area 20,153,634 (AA/DL/UA)
2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area 13,310,447 (AA/DL/UA)
3 Chicago-Naperville-Elgin, IL-IN-WI Metropolitan Statistical Area 9,512,999 (AA/UA)
4 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX Metropolitan Statistical Area 7,233,323 (AA)
5 Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land, TX Metropolitan Statistical Area 6,772,470 (UA)
6 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV Metropolitan Statistical Area 6,131,977 (AA/UA)
7 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD Metropolitan Statistical Area 6,070,500 (AA)
8 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area 6,066,387 (AA)
9 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Roswell, GA Metropolitan Statistical Area 5,789,700 (DL)
10 Boston-Cambridge-Newton, MA-NH Metropolitan Statistical Area 4,794,447
11 San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area (UA)
12 Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ Metropolitan Statistical Area 4,661,537 (AA)
13 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area 4,527,837
14 Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI Metropolitan Statistical Area 4,297,617 (DL)
15 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA Metropolitan Statistical Area 3,798,902 (DL)
16 Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI Metropolitan Statistical Area 3,551,036 (DL)
17 San Diego-Carlsbad, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area 3,317,749
18 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area 3,032,171
19 Denver-Aurora-Lakewood, CO Metropolitan Statistical Area 2,853,077 (UA)
20 St. Louis, MO-IL Metropolitan Statistical Area 2,807,002
21 Baltimore-Columbia-Towson, MD Metropolitan Statistical Area 2,798,886
22 Charlotte-Concord-Gastonia, NC-SC Metropolitan Statistical Area 2,474,314 (AA)

Austin787 wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

AA will probably scale back PHL and either PHX or LAX.

I don't see AA reducing PHL. It is their biggest northeast hub and main TATL gateway. If anything, I think AA would dehub JFK instead.

PHX is going nowhere. It serves a growing metro area and is AA's only hub for western USA connections (LAX doesn't have room to handle PHX's traffic). Plus, AA's CEO spent over a decade with PHX as his airline's headquarters, so he understands the PHX market and how to make a hub work.

LAX future depends on how the TPAC routes perform - a recession or rise in fuel prices could make some TPAC routes unviable.

No way AA is going to dismantle an international hub in the nations biggest city. Arguably one of the best terminals at JFK. They may not get the feed as a PHL might, but they aren't going to draw down JFK.

AAvgeek744 wrote:

Austin787 wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

AA will probably scale back PHL and either PHX or LAX.

I don't see AA reducing PHL. It is their biggest northeast hub and main TATL gateway. If anything, I think AA would dehub JFK instead.

PHX is going nowhere. It serves a growing metro area and is AA's only hub for western USA connections (LAX doesn't have room to handle PHX's traffic). Plus, AA's CEO spent over a decade with PHX as his airline's headquarters, so he understands the PHX market and how to make a hub work.

LAX future depends on how the TPAC routes perform - a recession or rise in fuel prices could make some TPAC routes unviable.

No way AA is going to dismantle an international hub in the nations biggest city. Arguably one of the best terminals at JFK. They may not get the feed as a PHL might, but they aren't going to draw down JFK.

Actually, AA is drawing down JFK. They cancelled BHX, SJU, TPA plus many more JFK routes. Plus reduce frequencies on routes like BOS and SFO. Doesn't show they are committed to JFK.

seatback wrote:

grbauc wrote:

No need for closures, the big 3 have pretty good equilibrium has noted up tread. I think the future growth for American Airlines and possibly even United Airlines will be in smaller focus cities small and little hubs. Delta is by means of needs doing this. AA and UA will catch on.

A point that was made in a previous thread was that Delta has focus cities because many of their hubs are not in the top major metro areas of the US (MSP, SLC, CVG, and even DTW and SEA) while AA has 7 hubs in top major metro areas such as Chicago, Dallas, LA, S. Florida, NYC, WAS, and PHL...all mega cities. Same with UA's 5 hubs namely IAH, WAS, LA, NYC, and Chicago.

1 New York-Newark-Jersey City, NY-NJ-PA Metropolitan Statistical Area 20,153,634 (AA/DL/UA)
2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area 13,310,447 (AA/DL/UA)
3 Chicago-Naperville-Elgin, IL-IN-WI Metropolitan Statistical Area 9,512,999 (AA/UA)
4 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX Metropolitan Statistical Area 7,233,323 (AA)
5 Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land, TX Metropolitan Statistical Area 6,772,470 (UA)
6 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV Metropolitan Statistical Area 6,131,977 (AA/UA)
7 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD Metropolitan Statistical Area 6,070,500 (AA)
8 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area 6,066,387 (AA)
9 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Roswell, GA Metropolitan Statistical Area 5,789,700 (DL)
10 Boston-Cambridge-Newton, MA-NH Metropolitan Statistical Area 4,794,447
11 San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area (UA)
12 Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ Metropolitan Statistical Area 4,661,537 (AA)
13 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area 4,527,837
14 Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI Metropolitan Statistical Area 4,297,617 (DL)
15 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA Metropolitan Statistical Area 3,798,902 (DL)
16 Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI Metropolitan Statistical Area 3,551,036 (DL)
17 San Diego-Carlsbad, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area 3,317,749
18 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area 3,032,171
19 Denver-Aurora-Lakewood, CO Metropolitan Statistical Area 2,853,077 (UA)
20 St. Louis, MO-IL Metropolitan Statistical Area 2,807,002
21 Baltimore-Columbia-Towson, MD Metropolitan Statistical Area 2,798,886
22 Charlotte-Concord-Gastonia, NC-SC Metropolitan Statistical Area 2,474,314 (AA)

yes (Commavia) has to me before and I 100% agree with it. Necessity has given the need to DL more so then the other two(AA,UA). Has of now I think there a lot closer now.

There (DL) NYC presence is #1 imop. LGA hub and there JFK Hub gives them not one but Two of the major 3 airports. At LAX they have stymied and equaled AA's push to take the number one spot. Has of now with there terminal change (I tried out T3) I put them at a advantage at LAX slightly. I have used over the last 20yrs T3 many times and its in the nicest shape that I can remember. The Number one and Two markets DL is in good shape.

DL has been the leader the last 6 or so years and I don't think many will disagree but the other two have been playing follow the leader. I believe they will follow suit on some PtP flying and focus cities.

AA has no market From SFO up to the border/PNW for DEN, SLC, BOI, LAS along with many secondary and small cities. They have to back track has AA has no forward flow point. AS has worked in the past but clearly AA needs to Address this now. With all the secondary markets around the Southern California area that I noted in another post that are getting a higher premium/fare then LAX to the PNW there will be in time SINCE there is really no other wholes in AA network domestic wise.

Doug Parker has not shown to build outside of his Hubs for most of his career so I'm not sure he will be the guy. I do look forward to seeing and hearing AA future out look post AS split.

Austin787 wrote:

AAvgeek744 wrote:

Austin787 wrote:

I don't see AA reducing PHL. It is their biggest northeast hub and main TATL gateway. If anything, I think AA would dehub JFK instead.

PHX is going nowhere. It serves a growing metro area and is AA's only hub for western USA connections (LAX doesn't have room to handle PHX's traffic). Plus, AA's CEO spent over a decade with PHX as his airline's headquarters, so he understands the PHX market and how to make a hub work.

LAX future depends on how the TPAC routes perform - a recession or rise in fuel prices could make some TPAC routes unviable.

No way AA is going to dismantle an international hub in the nations biggest city. Arguably one of the best terminals at JFK. They may not get the feed as a PHL might, but they aren't going to draw down JFK.

Actually, AA is drawing down JFK. They cancelled BHX, SJU, TPA plus many more JFK routes. Plus reduce frequencies on routes like BOS and SFO. Doesn't show they are committed to JFK.

Yes the slow bleeding of JFK and BOS kills me almost has bad has watching the PIT draw down. I like it for connections. I'm ready for AA to be More DL Like.

seatback wrote:

grbauc wrote:

No need for closures, the big 3 have pretty good equilibrium has noted up tread. I think the future growth for American Airlines and possibly even United Airlines will be in smaller focus cities small and little hubs. Delta is by means of needs doing this. AA and UA will catch on.

A point that was made in a previous thread was that Delta has focus cities because many of their hubs are not in the top major metro areas of the US (MSP, SLC, CVG, and even DTW and SEA) while AA has 7 hubs in top major metro areas such as Chicago, Dallas, LA, S. Florida, NYC, WAS, and PHL...all mega cities. Same with UA's 5 hubs namely IAH, WAS, LA, NYC, and Chicago.

1 New York-Newark-Jersey City, NY-NJ-PA Metropolitan Statistical Area 20,153,634 (AA/DL/UA)
2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area 13,310,447 (AA/DL/UA)
3 Chicago-Naperville-Elgin, IL-IN-WI Metropolitan Statistical Area 9,512,999 (AA/UA)
4 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX Metropolitan Statistical Area 7,233,323 (AA)
5 Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land, TX Metropolitan Statistical Area 6,772,470 (UA)
6 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV Metropolitan Statistical Area 6,131,977 (AA/UA)
7 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD Metropolitan Statistical Area 6,070,500 (AA)
8 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area 6,066,387 (AA)
9 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Roswell, GA Metropolitan Statistical Area 5,789,700 (DL)
10 Boston-Cambridge-Newton, MA-NH Metropolitan Statistical Area 4,794,447
11 San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area (UA)
12 Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ Metropolitan Statistical Area 4,661,537 (AA)
13 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area 4,527,837
14 Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI Metropolitan Statistical Area 4,297,617 (DL)
15 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA Metropolitan Statistical Area 3,798,902 (DL)
16 Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI Metropolitan Statistical Area 3,551,036 (DL)
17 San Diego-Carlsbad, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area 3,317,749
18 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area 3,032,171
19 Denver-Aurora-Lakewood, CO Metropolitan Statistical Area 2,853,077 (UA)
20 St. Louis, MO-IL Metropolitan Statistical Area 2,807,002
21 Baltimore-Columbia-Towson, MD Metropolitan Statistical Area 2,798,886
22 Charlotte-Concord-Gastonia, NC-SC Metropolitan Statistical Area 2,474,314 (AA)

Not to be nitpicky but outside of NY and maybe LA none of those places are "mega cities" on a global scale. They do punch above their class in terms of air service but most true global mega cities are not located in North America.

And if we're going to drag out population statistics, which I'm never really fond of either, the CMSA is a better US standard when discussing hubs and international service.

Austin787 wrote:

AAvgeek744 wrote:

Austin787 wrote:

I don't see AA reducing PHL. It is their biggest northeast hub and main TATL gateway. If anything, I think AA would dehub JFK instead.

PHX is going nowhere. It serves a growing metro area and is AA's only hub for western USA connections (LAX doesn't have room to handle PHX's traffic). Plus, AA's CEO spent over a decade with PHX as his airline's headquarters, so he understands the PHX market and how to make a hub work.

LAX future depends on how the TPAC routes perform - a recession or rise in fuel prices could make some TPAC routes unviable.

No way AA is going to dismantle an international hub in the nations biggest city. Arguably one of the best terminals at JFK. They may not get the feed as a PHL might, but they aren't going to draw down JFK.

Actually, AA is drawing down JFK. They cancelled BHX, SJU, TPA plus many more JFK routes. Plus reduce frequencies on routes like BOS and SFO. Doesn't show they are committed to JFK.

A draw down would make sense, but JFK still should carry some weight for AA. It certainly has more O&D for international. A large cut would leave a bunch of empty gates in a nice facility. It's not a huge issue to me, I avoid any NYC airport whenever possible.

izbtmnhd wrote:

seatback wrote:

grbauc wrote:

No need for closures, the big 3 have pretty good equilibrium has noted up tread. I think the future growth for American Airlines and possibly even United Airlines will be in smaller focus cities small and little hubs. Delta is by means of needs doing this. AA and UA will catch on.

A point that was made in a previous thread was that Delta has focus cities because many of their hubs are not in the top major metro areas of the US (MSP, SLC, CVG, and even DTW and SEA) while AA has 7 hubs in top major metro areas such as Chicago, Dallas, LA, S. Florida, NYC, WAS, and PHL...all mega cities. Same with UA's 5 hubs namely IAH, WAS, LA, NYC, and Chicago.

1 New York-Newark-Jersey City, NY-NJ-PA Metropolitan Statistical Area 20,153,634 (AA/DL/UA)
2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area 13,310,447 (AA/DL/UA)
3 Chicago-Naperville-Elgin, IL-IN-WI Metropolitan Statistical Area 9,512,999 (AA/UA)
4 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX Metropolitan Statistical Area 7,233,323 (AA)
5 Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land, TX Metropolitan Statistical Area 6,772,470 (UA)
6 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV Metropolitan Statistical Area 6,131,977 (AA/UA)
7 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD Metropolitan Statistical Area 6,070,500 (AA)
8 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area 6,066,387 (AA)
9 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Roswell, GA Metropolitan Statistical Area 5,789,700 (DL)
10 Boston-Cambridge-Newton, MA-NH Metropolitan Statistical Area 4,794,447
11 San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area (UA)
12 Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ Metropolitan Statistical Area 4,661,537 (AA)
13 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area 4,527,837
14 Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI Metropolitan Statistical Area 4,297,617 (DL)
15 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA Metropolitan Statistical Area 3,798,902 (DL)
16 Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI Metropolitan Statistical Area 3,551,036 (DL)
17 San Diego-Carlsbad, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area 3,317,749
18 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area 3,032,171
19 Denver-Aurora-Lakewood, CO Metropolitan Statistical Area 2,853,077 (UA)
20 St. Louis, MO-IL Metropolitan Statistical Area 2,807,002
21 Baltimore-Columbia-Towson, MD Metropolitan Statistical Area 2,798,886
22 Charlotte-Concord-Gastonia, NC-SC Metropolitan Statistical Area 2,474,314 (AA)

Not to be nitpicky but outside of NY and maybe LA none of those places are "mega cities" on a global scale. They do punch above their class in terms of air service but most true global mega cities are not located in North America.

And if we're going to drag out population statistics, which I'm never really fond of either, the CMSA is a better US standard when discussing hubs and international service.

Ok, so what is your definition of a global mega city then?

Austin787 wrote:

AAvgeek744 wrote:

Austin787 wrote:

I don't see AA reducing PHL. It is their biggest northeast hub and main TATL gateway. If anything, I think AA would dehub JFK instead.

PHX is going nowhere. It serves a growing metro area and is AA's only hub for western USA connections (LAX doesn't have room to handle PHX's traffic). Plus, AA's CEO spent over a decade with PHX as his airline's headquarters, so he understands the PHX market and how to make a hub work.

LAX future depends on how the TPAC routes perform - a recession or rise in fuel prices could make some TPAC routes unviable.

No way AA is going to dismantle an international hub in the nations biggest city. Arguably one of the best terminals at JFK. They may not get the feed as a PHL might, but they aren't going to draw down JFK.

Actually, AA is drawing down JFK. They cancelled BHX, SJU, TPA plus many more JFK routes. Plus reduce frequencies on routes like BOS and SFO. Doesn't show they are committed to JFK.

Do you honestly think AA will dehub JFK? I doubt it, but I guess it is certainly possible.