AA Expansion at CLT

MLIAA · Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:48 am

With the addition of new concourses and runways at CLT, what new routes might AA come up with from the Queen City? Several new routes around the Midwest in the last few years have performed well, including MSN, CID, PIA, SGF, and RAP.

SHV and TOL are starting later this year, but some other cities that come to mind include ICT, FSD, MLI, BMI, FSM, ACT, GRK, MAF, MFE, LBB, AMA, CRP, HOU, and COU. Perhaps AA wants to grow CLT to be more competitive in scope to ATL for DL, and some of the master plans for CLT could indicate this.

chrisp390 · Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:13 am

I heard there was supposed to be a PEK route in the works. Anyone know the status of this?

MAH4546 · Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:34 am

chrisp390 wrote:
I heard there was supposed to be a PEK route in the works. Anyone know the status of this?

There is no status, no such route is in the works.

Northwest1988 · Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:27 am

CLT used to have mainline service to GSP using a mix of the 737, F100, MD-80 and DC-9. Is it possible they may return mainline service to some of these types of destinations? GSP supports mainline DL service to ATL very well. No reason CLT couldn't be the same way I would think?

MIflyer12 · Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:34 am

MLIAA wrote:
SHV and TOL are starting later this year, but some other cities that come to mind include ICT, FSD, MLI, BMI, FSM, ACT, GRK, MAF, MFE, LBB, AMA, CRP, HOU, and COU. Perhaps AA wants to grow CLT to be more competitive in scope to ATL for DL, and some of the master plans for CLT could indicate this.

It's easy enough to list a bunch of airport codes but one really ought to think about demand and connectivity. MAF, for example, today has no scheduled service to anywhere in the Eastern Time Zone, or even Chicago. The idea of non-stop CLT-MAF when AA is dumping 50-seaters and smaller aircraft is just risibile.

usflyer msp · Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:46 am

MLIAA wrote:
With the addition of new concourses and runways at CLT, what new routes might AA come up with from the Queen City? Several new routes around the Midwest in the last few years have performed well, including MSN, CID, PIA, SGF, and RAP.

SHV and TOL are starting later this year, but some other cities that come to mind include ICT, FSD, MLI, BMI, FSM, ACT, GRK, MAF, MFE, LBB, AMA, CRP, HOU, and COU. Perhaps AA wants to grow CLT to be more competitive in scope to ATL for DL, and some of the master plans for CLT could indicate this.

ICT, BMI, MLI and HOU are good possibilities. I would also add FNT and GRB and a possible return to CSG and ECP; the rest are too far and thin.

DaufuskieGuy · Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:37 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
chrisp390 wrote:
I heard there was supposed to be a PEK route in the works. Anyone know the status of this?

There is no status, no such route is in the works.

what about about NRT or HKG? at some point doesn't CLT become large enough for an Asian route?

AVLAirlineFreq · Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:41 pm

I could also see ISP as a seasonal add.

Polot · Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:47 pm

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
chrisp390 wrote:
I heard there was supposed to be a PEK route in the works. Anyone know the status of this?

There is no status, no such route is in the works.

what about about NRT or HKG? at some point doesn't CLT become large enough for an Asian route?

I wouldn't hold your breath. AA doesn't even fly to East Asia from PHL, which will get a NRT flight long before CLT ever does (you can just forget about CLT-HKG, that is not happening in any reasonable amount of time).

CLT is primarily a domestic hub. Most of its growth will be domestic/regional international (Mexico, Caribbean, etc), not intercontinental. The city's O&D demand is not strong enough to support much more intercontinental over current at least with widebodies (A321LR might make a few European destinations work).

USAirALB · Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:57 pm

I'm sorry-it's laughable to bring up HKG. The only Asian routes that are realistically possible would be DXB and NRT, both of which I'd say are years away from happening.

The only route additions you'll likely see are connecting CLT with other AA cities that are only served from DFW/PHL/ORD. CLT-ISP/HOU/ICT/COS/FSD. If slots became available I could see CLT-SNA work as well. A seasonal CLT-EGE/JAC flight would probably work too. US formally did CLT-EGE years ago.

Tbh I honestly can't see any international additions. Maybe CLT-GRU if the Brazilian economy improves. I know US applied for CLT-BOG and had talked about CLT-LIM but I doubt AA is eager to jump on either of those routes.

olddominion727 · Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:09 pm

SJC on a permanent basis. It does well during the summer red-eye, why not a morning and midday?

DaufuskieGuy · Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:47 pm

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
I could also see ISP as a seasonal add.

more service to ISP in general perhaps as well, further out LI seems like an under served market

usairways85 · Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:52 pm

Northwest1988 wrote:
CLT used to have mainline service to GSP using a mix of the 737, F100, MD-80 and DC-9. Is it possible they may return mainline service to some of these types of destinations? GSP supports mainline DL service to ATL very well. No reason CLT couldn't be the same way I would think?

AA has 319's on CLT-CHS, MYR, IND, MCI, BDL, ALB, STL, ILM, SAV, BUF, ORF, RIC, PVD, SYR, ROC. So hardly a shortage of mainline aircraft to small-medium size airports

flyfresno · Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:56 pm

olddominion727 wrote:
SJC on a permanent basis. It does well during the summer red-eye, why not a morning and midday?

I'm pretty surprised that this route didn't become permanent when SMF-CLT did. Both airports tend to somewhat mirror each-other in service (domestically that is, with Asia and Europe being a totally different story), and it's surprising that SJC didn't warrant the service at least once per day or 5X per week year-round, especially when SMF is now up to 2X per day for a good part of the year.

BreezyIAH · Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:58 pm

What about SNA if there's a slot with a daily 319?
Other suggestions and maybe new destinations LNK, ABQ, FAR, RST, ATW, SUX, COU as well as FSD, ICT, MLI, BMI, FSM,.TVC seasonally, SBN, ACY, AZO, LAN, PIB, MEI, GTR, PFN

BreezyIAH · Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:07 pm

NRT would be only Asian route if any with a 788?

usflyer msp · Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:24 pm

BreezyIAH wrote:
NRT would be only Asian route if any with a 788?

CLT - Asia is pretty much a non-starter for the foreseeable future - there is little local demand, few unique connections and overflies every other hub...

DLASFlyer · Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:32 pm

nc3rd · Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:27 pm

BreezyIAH wrote:
What about SNA if there's a slot with a daily 319?
Other suggestions and maybe new destinations LNK, ABQ, FAR, RST, ATW, SUX, COU as well as FSD, ICT, MLI, BMI, FSM,.TVC seasonally, SBN, ACY, AZO, LAN, PIB, MEI, GTR, PFN

Wont see that due to aircraft performance and the short runway at SNA.

Polot · Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:31 pm

nc3rd wrote:
Wont see that due to aircraft performance and the short runway at SNA.

LAA's A319s shouldn't have much of an issue with the route (unsure about LUS's A319s).

zakuivcustom · Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:19 pm

CLT - Asia is pretty much a non-starter for the foreseeable future - there is little local demand, few unique connections and overflies every other hub...

There's always DXB, which I would think would come first before any East Asia routes. But that's about it. CLT Asian population is just not that big.

(On a side note, since I'm on a.net, we all know MIA-NRT would come first on AA :stirthepot:

)

SATexan · Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:43 pm

MLIAA wrote:
GRK, MAF, MFE, LBB, AMA, CRP.

These are non starters. They are all small markets that are already well covered through DFW. MAF/LBB have flights to PHX as well.
AA is more likely to consider connecting AMA / MFE with PHX.

ahj2000 · Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:17 pm

I'd look at Midwest L-AA destinations close enough to CLT to be served with a CR2 or CR7. I do think most of Charlotte's growth will be ungauging, at least for the near term, and possibly SJC DUB and MAD going year round.
I think South America could happen (lord knows I'd like to skip Miami) but only if AA and LA/JJ get a JV

Seat1F · Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:02 pm

I see very few adds out of CLT by AA for the next few years. Minimal new international opportunity. Maybe a few new domestic routes. Nothing much to speak of.

BoeingGuy · Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:07 pm

Polot wrote:
nc3rd wrote:
Wont see that due to aircraft performance and the short runway at SNA.

LAA's A319s shouldn't have much of an issue with the route (unsure about LUS's A319s).

LUS's A319s did SNA-PIT and SNA-PHL. Either AA's A319s or 757s could easily do SNA-CLT. The 73G could do it too, if AA had them in their fleet.

USAirALB · Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:37 pm

A couple of years back US had planned to launch both CLT-SNA and PHL-SNA with a 757. I believe they planned an evening CLT departure and a red-eye return while running a PHL morning departure and an afternoon return.

I don't know what came of it, but I am assuming they just never got the slots.

CIDFlyer · Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:49 am

arent they supposed to take over the old concourse A when the new gates open up? I could see some cities like BMI/CMI/COU get added. smaller midwestern markets would be most likely to challenge DL/ATL. Perhaps some upgauging to mainline on routes like OMA/DSM/GRR?

BoeingGuy · Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:45 am

USAirALB wrote:
A couple of years back US had planned to launch both CLT-SNA and PHL-SNA with a 757. I believe they planned an evening CLT departure and a red-eye return while running a PHL morning departure and an afternoon return.

I don't know what came of it, but I am assuming they just never got the slots.

I believe US did do SNA-PHL for a short time. At least I saw it announced.

727LOVER · Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:37 am

usflyer msp wrote:
BreezyIAH wrote:
NRT would be only Asian route if any with a 788?

CLT - Asia is pretty much a non-starter for the foreseeable future - there is little local demand, few unique connections and overflies every other hub...

Aren't they building a lengthy new runway specifically to lure Asian service?

By the way....they way I remember....we were told AA would be downsizing CLT after the merger.

globalcabotage · Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:46 am

PEK and HKG? What are y'all smoking in Charlotte?

MLIAA · Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:42 am

727LOVER wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
BreezyIAH wrote:
NRT would be only Asian route if any with a 788?

CLT - Asia is pretty much a non-starter for the foreseeable future - there is little local demand, few unique connections and overflies every other hub...

Aren't they building a lengthy new runway specifically to lure Asian service?

By the way....they way I remember....we were told AA would be downsizing CLT after the merger.

Doubtful. CLT's low cost structure, geographic location, low congestion, and high profitability make it the perfect storm for a huge hub. CLT isn't going anywhere.

WPvsMW · Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:16 am

MLIAA wrote:
Doubtful. CLT's low cost structure, geographic location, low INSERT airborne congestion, and high profitability make it the perfect storm for a huge hub. CLT isn't going anywhere.

The congestion on I85, I485, and I77 around CLT requires an edit to your statement.

Also, I think AA has to make LAX/Asia and DFW/Asia (more?) profitable before tackling CLT/Asia. CLT/Asia would be for business travelers, which requires daily service. Leisure travelers will use connections.

tom02 · Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:42 pm

Can't see AA expanding internationally within the next 5 years at least on widebody routes. Gate space is currently extremely limited with AA having to run two A330's a day out of B concourse and D being maxed out except late at night. Maybe once C and B are expanded it'll open up more possibility for international but that wont be till at least 2024.
Also here is a list of all the projects currently going on.
http://www.cltairport.com/News/Pages/De ... jects.aspx

raylee67 · Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:51 pm

Polot wrote:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:

There is no status, no such route is in the works.

what about about NRT or HKG? at some point doesn't CLT become large enough for an Asian route?

I wouldn't hold your breath. AA doesn't even fly to East Asia from PHL, which will get a NRT flight long before CLT ever does (you can just forget about CLT-HKG, that is not happening in any reasonable amount of time).

CLT is primarily a domestic hub. Most of its growth will be domestic/regional international (Mexico, Caribbean, etc), not intercontinental. The city's O&D demand is not strong enough to support much more intercontinental over current at least with widebodies (A321LR might make a few European destinations work).

Although Asian route is probably a long shot, do note that Charlotte is actually the second largest banking center in US (although it's retail bank and thus mostly domestic vs. NYC that is corporate or investment bank that is mostly international). Nonetheless there would be some financial traffic that can support yield. But yes, the economy cabin will be entirely relying on connection traffic. CLT-HKG/NRT is likely to be more viable than PHL-HKG/NRT

MAH4546 · Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:55 pm

raylee67 wrote:
CLT-HKG/NRT is likely to be more viable than PHL-HKG/NRT

That is insane. Philadelphia-Asia is the third largest U.S.-Asia market without a non-stop (Miami and Orlando are the two largest) and significantly larger than Charlotte-Asia.

Art at ISP · Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:00 pm

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
I could also see ISP as a seasonal add.

ISP could be a year round route, as it was when PI ran it in the 1980s. I would take it regularly, to stay away from PHL.
It will be interesting to see how (or if) AA responds to F9's announcement about ISP service earlier this week.

globalcabotage · Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:35 am

Let's all take a breath of fresh air and think of reality.

Unfortunately CLT fans: BJS, DXB, HKG, NRT, PVG, EZE, LIM, BOG, and GIG are not going to happen. Please accept the fact that MIA will always be ahead of CLT for international flights. For Europe, PHL, JFK, and even ORD will demand more flights (may not have the Y connections, but they have the J and F O&D). Even DTW is more important to DL than CLT is to AA (and both are due to mergers). Of course you will never hear DTW fans praise DL.

phlwok · Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:46 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
A couple of years back US had planned to launch both CLT-SNA and PHL-SNA with a 757. I believe they planned an evening CLT departure and a red-eye return while running a PHL morning departure and an afternoon return.

I don't know what came of it, but I am assuming they just never got the slots.

I believe US did do SNA-PHL for a short time. At least I saw it announced.

Yup, I flew it a number of times. Not only did we not run off the end of SNA's runways, we made it to PHL each time, and one time even had enough fuel to circle for an hour without diverting due to fog. The A319 is perfectly capable, which is what operated it. It had been moved from PIT-SNA after the downsizing of the PIT hub.

phluser · Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:02 am

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
I could also see ISP as a seasonal add.

Why seasonal? It should just add it year round, if it's going to add it. During the winter, it'd provide connections to the South, and in the summer, to the West, and throughout the year, both. That's the greatness of the CLT hub as it does both.

AVLAirlineFreq · Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:32 pm

phluser wrote:
AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
I could also see ISP as a seasonal add.

Why seasonal? It should just add it year round, if it's going to add it. During the winter, it'd provide connections to the South, and in the summer, to the West, and throughout the year, both. That's the greatness of the CLT hub as it does both.

No particular reason, I was drunk when I wrote that.

steeler83 · Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:59 pm

Somewhat off topic, but I thought AA sent their wide body equipment either across the pond or to South America. Well... I am going to Tennessee next week via AA PHL-CLT and a 3 hour ride to the Great Smokies; I am on AA600, which is an A332.

MY FIRST EXPERIENCE WITH A WIDEBODY!!!

Ok, that aside... While CLT-Asia would be kinda neat, I'd have to side with LAX and DFW-Asia before CLT is even thought of. I thought/think of CLT as more of a domestic connecting hub with some international flights, whereas the main international gateways seem to be MIA, DFW, LAX, and ORD, and to a lesser extent PHL I thought PHL was going to at least maintain some of its service, but it seems as though PHL has dwindled somewhat - at least that is what I have been observing, anyway...

jplatts · Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:45 pm

There is limited competition out of CLT on most of the routes that are served nonstop out of CLT on airlines other than AA. Southwest and United could both add additional flights out of CLT as there is limited competition out of CLT and since CLT is located in a major metropolitan area. The City of Charlotte needs to extend leases to additional gates to Southwest Airlines and United Airlines, as granting these airlines leases to additional gates at CLT would improve competition.

Why does AA need to further expand at CLT if WN and UA could add additional flights out of CLT?

cm642 · Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:24 pm

globalcabotage wrote:
Let's all take a breath of fresh air and think of reality.

Unfortunately CLT fans: BJS, DXB, HKG, NRT, PVG, EZE, LIM, BOG, and GIG are not going to happen. Please accept the fact that MIA will always be ahead of CLT for international flights. For Europe, PHL, JFK, and even ORD will demand more flights (may not have the Y connections, but they have the J and F O&D). Even DTW is more important to DL than CLT is to AA (and both are due to mergers). Of course you will never hear DTW fans praise DL.

Hell PHX has better chances at Asia than Charlotte.

cm642 · Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:24 pm

cm642 wrote:
globalcabotage wrote:
Let's all take a breath of fresh air and think of reality.

Unfortunately CLT fans: BJS, DXB, HKG, NRT, PVG, EZE, LIM, BOG, and GIG are not going to happen. Please accept the fact that MIA will always be ahead of CLT for international flights. For Europe, PHL, JFK, and even ORD will demand more flights (may not have the Y connections, but they have the J and F O&D). Even DTW is more important to DL than CLT is to AA (and both are due to mergers). Of course you will never hear DTW fans praise DL.

Hell PHX has better chances at Asia such as NRT than Charlotte.

centralflorida · Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:40 pm

JDPLATs..See Dallas Love Field and your question is answered as far as the airport promoting competition.

usairways85 · Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:58 pm

jplatts wrote:
There is limited competition out of CLT on most of the routes that are served nonstop out of CLT on airlines other than AA. Southwest and United could both add additional flights out of CLT as there is limited competition out of CLT and since CLT is located in a major metropolitan area. The City of Charlotte needs to extend leases to additional gates to Southwest Airlines and United Airlines, as granting these airlines leases to additional gates at CLT would improve competition.

Why does AA need to further expand at CLT if WN and UA could add additional flights out of CLT?

Charlotte is a growing city, but it lags behind other hubs in local demand. Who cares if it's a "major" metro, it just does not generate the demand that others do. Gates and runways are one thing to consider, but airlines don't expand/start service just because there's a vacant gate to utilize.

I pointed out in the "CLT Expansion other carrier" thread that despite CLT having more AA capacity on West Coast routes than PHL, PHL has more PDEW on just about all of them. Further, of those routes, 75% of them, PHL has practically double the PDEW than CLT. And frankly PHL lags in attracting the amount of demand in it's own right, so that should tell you something.

usflyer msp · Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:17 pm

jplatts wrote:
There is limited competition out of CLT on most of the routes that are served nonstop out of CLT on airlines other than AA. Southwest and United could both add additional flights out of CLT as there is limited competition out of CLT and since CLT is located in a major metropolitan area. The City of Charlotte needs to extend leases to additional gates to Southwest Airlines and United Airlines, as granting these airlines leases to additional gates at CLT would improve competition.

Why does AA need to further expand at CLT if WN and UA could add additional flights out of CLT?

This is the downside of being an large hub airport in a medium-large sized city; since the oversized AA hub sucks up virtually all of the local traffic - there is little left for the other carriers to pick-up.

globalcabotage · Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:31 am

phluser wrote:
AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
I could also see ISP as a seasonal add.

Why seasonal? It should just add it year round, if it's going to add it. During the winter, it'd provide connections to the South, and in the summer, to the West, and throughout the year, both. That's the greatness of the CLT hub as it does both.

Pretty soon CLT will be the next DTW. Any route can make money, if AA and Red NC legislators didn't hate CLT.

MLIAA · Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:23 am

globalcabotage wrote:
phluser wrote:
AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
I could also see ISP as a seasonal add.

Why seasonal? It should just add it year round, if it's going to add it. During the winter, it'd provide connections to the South, and in the summer, to the West, and throughout the year, both. That's the greatness of the CLT hub as it does both.

Pretty soon CLT will be the next DTW. Any route can make money, if AA and Red NC legislators didn't hate CLT.

Where does this idea that AA hates CLT come from? CLT is the most profitable and 2nd largest hub for AA. They can't hate it that much.

GoHokies · Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:01 pm

Yes, CLT will have more gates when the A concourse north is complete, but that is only part of the equation needed for expansion. They also need planes and pilots. With Air Wisconsin taking 65 CRJ2s from AA to UA in the next six months and the likelihood that Piedmont will retire its remaining DH8-300s after the 2018 summer season, isn't it more realistic to ask what cities will see a reduction of service from CLT or lose service altogether?

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