Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

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matthieugd
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Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:28 pm

I just read this press release via Canada Aviation News https://canadianaviationnews.wordpress. ... canadians/ :

Expanded air transport agreement with Thailand to provide more travel options for Canadians
(...)
The new agreement, which replaces the existing 1989 agreement, establishes an allowance of 21 flights per week for each country. It also enhances rights that allow airlines to extend Canada–Thailand services to third countries (otherwise known as fifth freedom rights) on up to seven of the 21 weekly flights. In addition, the new agreement enhances previously existing code-share rights (when an air carrier sells seats on a flight operated by another carrier) and modernizes aviation safety and ‎security articles as well as doing business provisions.
(...)


Is that possible to have a direct flight from YVR to BKK? The agreement include 5th freedom rights so maybe it's going to be a flight with a stop ?
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:42 pm

Won't be very high yielding...
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kitplane01
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Re: Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:55 am

Question: Which nation wanted the lower limit? I assume that 21 is a compromise between Canada and Thailand, and that one wanted more freedom for airlines (a larger limit) and the other less. Which wanted more?
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kitplane01
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Re: Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:55 am

It seems these agreements are almost always in terms of "flights per week". Why is it not "seats per week", which would seem the more relevant number?
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LAX772LR
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Re: Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:18 am

matthieugd wrote:
Is that possible to have a direct flight from YVR to BKK?

Physically, yes... 77E, 77L, 77W, 788, 789, A359, and A388 can all do it with no problem.

Legally, I'm not sure how Canada reacted to Thailand's low ICAO assessment though. Maybe someone else can give us clarity.
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tacobell101
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Re: Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:28 am

Currently there are no direct routes from Canada to Thailand. This would be a big eye opener for YVR as they have been known to attract a lot of asian airlines and asian routes to Vancouver and North America.

Air Canada could easily send a 787-8/9 or 777's.
Thai Airways could resume North American service with a 787-8, 777W, A359.

It seems unlikely for Thai as they pulled out of NA a few years ago to try and focus more on asian cities (SOURCE: http://www.experiencetheskies.com/thai- ... -35-years/).

This could be a big opportunity for Air Canada though.
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teriyaki
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Re: Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:31 am

Very interesting. A flight like YVR-BKK would be a very long one indeed. Lots of questions about this one. Were Airlines consulted in this new agreement? Is there actually a business case for a direct flight between the 2 countries? If there was, what was the limiting factor prior to the new agreement. 21 flights a week is pretty high for a route that currently has 0 flights, higher than our agreement with Taiwan I believe.

If AC were to run the flight, it would have to be on their 788 to start. Thank god AC rouge's 767 won't have the range for this one. You just know they'll want to throw the cheapest product on a route like this.

Another question is, the 5th freedom aspect. Is it reciprocal both ways. Meaning, TG could operate a 5th freedom flight bkk-yvr-yyz? Would they be able to sell those intra-Canada flight seats separate to Canadians?

Would an airline like SQ be able to possibly route SIN-BKK-YVR? Pretty off base for this, I just want to keep the dream alive that SQ will one day grace our skies again.
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raylee67
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Re: Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:42 am

Nothing is going to happen. Canada and Thailand have always have an aviation agreement. Whatever the original limit was, it was not utilized. Expanding the limit is meaningless. Air Canada is the only airline in Canada capable of flying to Thailand, and I really don't see it deploying its 787 to Thailand. The plane can be used in far more profitable routes. On the other side, Thai is in a bad shape and it even realized LAX is not profitable.

The remote possibility is that NokScoot may try BKK-YVR (may be via a Chinese or Japanese destination). But again, original bi-laterals already allow 5th rights (CP used to fly YVR-HKG-BKK and TG had tried BKK-TPE?-SEA-YYZ). They don't need the new agreement to open such route.
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raylee67
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Re: Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:49 am

teriyaki wrote:

Another question is, the 5th freedom aspect. Is it reciprocal both ways. Meaning, TG could operate a 5th freedom flight bkk-yvr-yyz? Would they be able to sell those intra-Canada flight seats separate to Canadians?

Would an airline like SQ be able to possibly route SIN-BKK-YVR? Pretty off base for this, I just want to keep the dream alive that SQ will one day grace our skies again.


YVR-YYZ portion is not called 5th rights as it's a domestic sector. It's a cabotage right and I think the only example of countries granting cabotage rights to others are EU and NZ/Australia. In short, the new agreement does not cover cabotage. Of course, Thai carriers are free to fly BKK-YVR-YYZ, but they cannot sell tickets on the YVR-YYZ segment. 5th-rights (i.e. Thailand-3rd country-Canada) were available in the original agreement.

For SQ to operate SIN-BKK-YVR, they will rely on the agreement between Singapore and Canada, and between Singapore and Thailand, not an agreement between Thailand and Canada. Both agreements already allow 5th rights traffic.
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Thenoflyzone
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Re: Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:51 am

tacobell101 wrote:

This could be a big opportunity for Air Canada though.


There was nothing stopping them from flying the route before this new agreement. I don`t see how this new agreement will entice AC to start the route. Operating 5th freedom routes in Asia isn`t that profitable for a North American carrier. Just look at DL and UA, which have both scaled back their 5th freedom network in Asia.

I think we'll see AC operating YVR-SIN, YYC-PEK or YYZ-CAN before YVR-BKK gets even considered for a launch.
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nadavatar64
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Re: Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:17 pm

Im sure if AC Rouge had the suitable aircraft they would be serving YVR-BKK by now.
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Boeing744
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Re: Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:23 pm

Could we ever see Rouge doing this route with a stopover (and maybe 5th freedom rights) elsewhere in Asia? Perhaps a more VFR-oriented new Chinese destination?
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Whiteguy
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Re: Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:26 pm

nadavatar64 wrote:
Im sure if AC Rouge had the suitable aircraft they would be serving YVR-BKK by now.


I'm guessing the 8 B788s will eventually be transferred over to Rouge once AC has the required number on property, 37 airframes per the contract...
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SQCXlover
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Re: Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:12 pm

CP Air / Canadian Airlines used to operate a 744 BKK-HKG-YVR VV daily. The service was cancelled by AC after the merge. It's time to bring this service back!
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NichCage
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Re: Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:47 pm

Never going to happen. I doubt that Thai Airways will ever resume flights to North America, too much competition sadly. And also pretty low yielding in the process.
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kevin
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Re: Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:14 am

WestJet could do it when they get their 787s. They operate to a variety of holiday destinations. Why not add BKK to that list?
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kevin
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Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 5:03 am

Re: Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:14 am

WestJet could do it when they get their 787s. They operate to a variety of holiday destinations. Why not add BKK to that list
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jetblueguy22
Posts: 3697
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

Re: Canada - Thailand Expanded Air Transport Agreement

Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:18 am

I love news like this because everybody thinks it makes every route suddenly become feasible.

Economics stopped flights between Thailand and Canada from happening, not governments
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