If the US3 cannot compete effectively againist the ME3 separately, perhaps they can collaborate together and compete that way. Send A380's, 747-8, 777x to the ME, EU, Asia, SA, Australia, The US airlines collaborated back in the late 1950's 60's. Perhaps it is time to combine their strengths and compete internationally together and feed their individual US hubs and share the international revenue. Europe and Asia haven't been able to compete effectively. It is time the US3 works together and competes. Go to the US Government and get subsidies and level the playing field. Enough of this playing around. The US3 needs to act smart. If the US3 can do it perhaps the rest of the global airlines will wake up and collaborate with their country's airlines. Go for it US3. Go for it global airlines and compete against the ME3 effectively.

Perhaps Delta should have made a tape on how to effectively handle a system crash with minimal fall would have been more help to their employees than a negative ME3 video which does nothing to enhance the customer experience at Delta. You guys who agree with this are talking out of both sides of your mouth I have always read here that all is fare when it comes to gaining market share if even you have to crush the competition to get investors a return on their investment who cares who the investors are for EK the invertors are the banks and don't think for a minute if Delta could get away with the same thing they would to make money. How many jobs have they outsourced to regionals to save money that don't even pay their employee's enough to live on so their are no tears to be shed here the folks at the Atlanta headquarters are nothing but a bunch of babies who have been one upped and they never saw it coming good for the ME3 for giving Delta a taste of their own medicine.

What a bunch of cry babies DL and the US3 are... Adapt to reality and become better, this is just pathetic! Lets forget for a minute how the ME3 financials are, it is a fact that the UAE is basically a tax free country and has very corporate friendly laws regarding employee rights etc and companies like EK take full advantage through-out the whole value chain!
Talking about dubious economics, if you want to start complaining about the ME3 airlines, we can also give a look at the US companies, especially some big name tech companies like Tesla, Twitter, Snapchat etc that have gigantic (unrealistic?) market valuations, but cannot produce any profit till now and are basically kept alive through a combination of cheap money, blind/greedy investors and VC's.
Should we even start talking about the US military industrial complex that uses the US government as a giant ATM machine!?

Come on, grow some .... Delta

That propaganda was hard to watch. The hardest part for me is their whining when they've been allowed to stick it to U.S. consumers in by far their largest market (domestic) - market that the ME3 will never touch. It's repulsive. That's the culture of Delta, folks.

Alias1024 wrote:

I'm surprised so many on here lack the strategic sense to see that the US3 aren't really very concerned about the US-Middle East market. They're VERY concerned the ME3 will trash trans-Atlantic yields with fifth freedom flights from Europe to the US. They're trying to get ahead of the threat instead of waiting until it's too late.

I can't tell if this is a joke. C'mon dude, ME3 literally has Middle East in the name. Their success is based on connecting the east to the west which is why they have invested so much at their superhubs. Trust me, they don't give a shit about fifth freedom TATL flights, it's just the US3 that are way too paranoid. The only reason EK has JFK-MXP and EWR-ATH is because MXP and ATH asked for it.

IPFreely wrote:

It's not a marketing video. It's a video to "educate" DL employees on the competition. Which means reductions in headcount and pay cuts are likely coming soon. This is just prep work in hopes that employees blame the ME3 and unfair subsidies when it happens.

Agree 100%

oh boo hoo. Delta, who filed Chapter 11, reorganized by shedding millions in debt, then builds a hub on top of one of their partners hubs. Now they're crying because they think another airline is using a financial loophole to their detriment. Boo hoo. This video is using Trump fueled nationalism and ridiculous fear mongering based on so much information to try to scare their employees. It's embarrassing.

That video is so full of irony its almost a parody.

KTPAFlyer wrote:

Alias1024 wrote:

I'm surprised so many on here lack the strategic sense to see that the US3 aren't really very concerned about the US-Middle East market. They're VERY concerned the ME3 will trash trans-Atlantic yields with fifth freedom flights from Europe to the US. They're trying to get ahead of the threat instead of waiting until it's too late.

I can't tell if this is a joke. C'mon dude, ME3 literally has Middle East in the name. Their success is based on connecting the east to the west which is why they have invested so much at their superhubs. Trust me, they don't give a shit about fifth freedom TATL flights, it's just the US3 that are way too paranoid. The only reason EK has JFK-MXP and EWR-ATH is because MXP and ATH asked for it.

You really think the US3 would make such a big stink about this if it were only about a few routes to Dubai and India?

This isn't about the state of the industry today, but where it will be 10-20 years from now. It's absolutely about the US to Europe and the Pacific. US to Middle East is small potatoes.

ASFlyer wrote:

oh boo hoo. Delta, who filed Chapter 11, reorganized by shedding millions in debt, then builds a hub on top of one of their partners hubs. Now they're crying because they think another airline is using a financial loophole to their detriment. Boo hoo. This video is using Trump fueled nationalism and ridiculous fear mongering based on so much information to try to scare their employees. It's embarrassing.

How about lets allow the US government to buy Delta Air Lines all the widebody planes it wants without having to pay back a dime and throw in a new airport to boot without having to pay rent. Then, DL can compete against the heavily and unfairly subsidized ME3.

If this affected your beloved AS, which it doesn't because essentially, AS doesn't leave North America, than you would be singing a different tune but because its Delta, its boo hoo. LOL

Delta shed millions in debt but the ME3 are up to 50 billion in counting in government subsidized monies. The Delta bankruptcy was a one time deal which lasted a year or two. The ME3 continue to this day to receive subsidies. You cant compare the two fairly. If you do, your blind and have no concept about how the ME3 are destroying airlines and jobs all over the world. kudos to the Chinese and the Canadians for rightly putting the ME3 in there place.

jumbojet wrote:

ASFlyer wrote:

oh boo hoo. Delta, who filed Chapter 11, reorganized by shedding millions in debt, then builds a hub on top of one of their partners hubs. Now they're crying because they think another airline is using a financial loophole to their detriment. Boo hoo. This video is using Trump fueled nationalism and ridiculous fear mongering based on so much information to try to scare their employees. It's embarrassing.

How about lets allow the US government to buy Delta Air Lines all the widebody planes it wants without having to pay back a dime and throw in a new airport to boot without having to pay rent. Then, DL can compete against the heavily and unfairly subsidized ME3.

If this affected your beloved AS, which it doesn't because essentially, AS doesn't leave North America, than you would be singing a different tune but because its Delta, its boo hoo. LOL

Delta shed millions in debt but the ME3 are up to 50 billion in counting in government subsidized monies. The Delta bankruptcy was a one time deal which lasted a year or two. The ME3 continue to this day to receive subsidies. You cant compare the two fairly. If you do, your blind and have no concept about how the ME3 are destroying airlines and jobs all over the world. kudos to the Chinese and the Canadians for rightly putting the ME3 in there place.

Parroting the fear mongering video put out by Delta management, which has an extensive history of knowing how to fear monger during union drives. Whatevs.

Oh, and for the record, it does affect my beloved Alaska. Emirates funnels passengers to Alaska (and JetBlue) flights which indirectly creates jobs for people right here in the U.S.

ASFlyer wrote:

jumbojet wrote:

ASFlyer wrote:

oh boo hoo. Delta, who filed Chapter 11, reorganized by shedding millions in debt, then builds a hub on top of one of their partners hubs. Now they're crying because they think another airline is using a financial loophole to their detriment. Boo hoo. This video is using Trump fueled nationalism and ridiculous fear mongering based on so much information to try to scare their employees. It's embarrassing.

How about lets allow the US government to buy Delta Air Lines all the widebody planes it wants without having to pay back a dime and throw in a new airport to boot without having to pay rent. Then, DL can compete against the heavily and unfairly subsidized ME3.

If this affected your beloved AS, which it doesn't because essentially, AS doesn't leave North America, than you would be singing a different tune but because its Delta, its boo hoo. LOL

Delta shed millions in debt but the ME3 are up to 50 billion in counting in government subsidized monies. The Delta bankruptcy was a one time deal which lasted a year or two. The ME3 continue to this day to receive subsidies. You cant compare the two fairly. If you do, your blind and have no concept about how the ME3 are destroying airlines and jobs all over the world. kudos to the Chinese and the Canadians for rightly putting the ME3 in there place.

Parroting the fear mongering video put out by Delta management, which has an extensive history of knowing how to fear monger during union drives. Whatevs.

Oh, and for the record, it does affect my beloved Alaska. Emirates funnels passengers to Alaska (and JetBlue) flights which indirectly creates jobs for people right here in the U.S.

Then if anything,, B6 and AS are just as guilty as the ME3. If B6 and AS had the enormous international network and reach of the US3, I bet they would be singing a different tune but because they serve such a small area of north America and s smidgeon of central America, they are forced to play cards with the devil.

And, how people on here can continually compare the bankruptcies of the US3 to the subsidies of the ME3, you really need to have your heads examined. I want one person, any person, to explain to me how a single bankruptcy that lasted a few years at best, which cost the tax payers tens of millions of dollars, is on par to the continued, lengthy and extensive government subsidies of the ME3 that run into the tens of billions of dollars. Please, someone explain to me how that makes sense.

Give Delta billions a year to buy new planes without having to repay a dime and to replenish the fleet every 10 years Or better yet, take away the billions that ME3 get and let them have to pay for things like we do here in the states. How's that sound to you? Sounds fair to me.

777Mech wrote:

BestWestern wrote:

The irony of all ironies is that Delta says nothing about the airlines with the biggest global subsidies - Air China, China Eastern and China Southern. These three airlines are totally distorting the Asia North American market.

DL says nothing as they want a piece of that pie. In China, US carriers have a product perception advantage over the ME3.

Does China have an Open Skies agreement with the US?

Right...

I don't believe this point was communicated properly. These state subsidized Chinese carriers are acting in the same ways as the Gulf carriers are allegedly acting, in the sense that they are dumping lower fares into the market to gain marketshare, with likely little or no profit incentive. Yes it is true that there does not exist an open skies agreement between the US and China, though there are never any complaints from any of the US3 when it comes to the massive expansion that these Chinese carriers have taken in the US.

Wasn't it even said in a recent FY that all of AA's operations over the pacific have yet to become profitable?

Please tell us exactly how many planes have the ME3 don't have to pay a dime on. With EK owning precisely 2 aicraft, I would expect the owners of the 242 other aircraft would want their planes back due to non-payment of lease fees. Perhaps you can shed light on how many aircraft have been seized?

It's not the ME3's fault that their governments operate a zero or low tax policy. Even the US3 could taken advantage but they prefer to fleece domestic passengers tor the tune of a few billion dollars per year with dreadful service and reliability.

This is a textbook case of why protectionism is a bad idea.
It preys on the fact that the other side will suffer, but when you're on the receiving end of that game, it hurts. Etihad and Qatar are definitely not making any sort of meaningful profit but there's no question that EK is and that's who DL should be worried about. EK is the one that's actually playing DL on a level playing field and guess what, they happen to be the one that will make DL the next Pan Am (as DL likes to believe). Based on that alone, Delta is spewing lies because that means that even on a level playing field, they can't hold a candle to EK. There's no denying that EK runs a better operation, whether that's because of efficiency on the ground, better technology, smarter management, constant marketing, consolidated fleet, easier connectivity or just overall competiveness. It's not hard to see why EK is generally more resilient even as 100% of its market depends heavily on the geopolitical situation whereas DL has the domestic market to fall back on. As for EY and QR, while hemorrhaging losses, the billions of dollars pumped into those airlines are used to fill Boeing's order books, so while unfair, DL is definitely wrong about losing jobs. The 777X program exists in the first place solely because of the ME3.

PerfectGriffin wrote:

chiki wrote:

I like the guy who says the flights are nearly empty, this is like a Zanu PF propaganda video and putting staff in it is so low. I don't care about subsidies as long as i get a cheap ticket i am ok. whether its a 17.5 in Boeing or 18 in airbus. I want to get from A to B cheaply and safely.

That was the most petty part of that video. If they are indeed flying empty planes than why not back it up with some actual numbers and not the opinion of some ramp worker.

Just for interest sakes, I spent the time calculating the LFs for Qatar's DOH-ATL since January, using statistics from ATL's website, and using 'The Qatar Source' for the aircraft capacity records.

January: 96.2 % inbound, 91.5% outbound
February: 94.0% inbound, 70.9% outbound
March: 88.4% inbound, 65.8% outbound
April: 83.1% inbound, 54.2% outbound

Overall: 90.1% inbound, 70.0% outbound.

Obviously I have no indication of what the yields were like on these flights, so I cannot speak to the profitability of the flights, but it does go to show that the load factors have been relatively healthy in both directions since the beginning of the year. It makes me wonder how a ramp agent would have seen flights operating half-empty everyday.

sounds like sour grapes...

Airlinerdude wrote:

I don't believe this point was communicated properly. These state subsidized Chinese carriers are acting in the same ways as the Gulf carriers are allegedly acting, in the sense that they are dumping lower fares into the market to gain marketshare, with likely little or no profit incentive. Yes it is true that there does not exist an open skies agreement between the US and China, though there are never any complaints from any of the US3 when it comes to the massive expansion that these Chinese carriers have taken in the US.

Let's be clear why Delta has no complaints about the Chinese carriers receiving subsidies: Delta has an ownership stake in China Eastern to the tune of a $450,000,000 investment. It's possible that not everyone is aware of this since Delta does not publicize it at all. All of the global issues about losing jobs and hurting the US military and level playing fields and such that apply to the ME3 also apply to the Chinese carriers. The only real difference to Delta is that the Chinese subsidies add to their profits, so they will stay quiet about it.

Shouldnt Delta have better things to do with their time other than making propaganda videos? I know! How about running an airline!?

This is a very real problem. US carriers cannot compete against sovereign states with enormous wealth that use their airlines as instruments of state policy. Etihad's own board documents state that but for subsidies they are not a viable going concern.

If this were tires or steel, the USTR would have long since put a stop to it. At $50b it is the largest unprosecuted trade violation in US history.

While some dismiss it as "whining" there is not a single statement in the video that is not fact based and substantiated.

The economically effecient result may be for US carriers to retrench to domestic service only. And feed traffic to foreign subsided carriers that provide international service at less than the cost of production.

But if we want global US carrier service things really do need to change.

TigerFlyer wrote:

While some dismiss it as "whining" there is not a single statement in the video that is not fact based and substantiated.

Its a bunch of twisted bullshit my friend put together in rhetoric style that we only know from Donald Trump!

Looking at the video again, I understand for who this is made, its made for their own employees so Delta can use this as a silly excuse when discussing any labour or union disputes. This way they can play victim and don't be responsible for anything and point the finger elsewhere. Delta must have done some studies and found out that this type of communication must hit a nerve with most of their employees (possibly Trump voters and/or Fox viewers with an extremely nationalistic worldview).

I just checked Delta's 2016 financial figures and they posted a $7 billion net profit, that is quite a good profit and they are stating in the video that they cannot buy new planes or open new international routes (to India). Please tell me, what or who is holding DL back leasing/buying new planes and opening new routes to India??? They even stated in the video that their customers are asking for this but have to refer to other airlines!
This in my opinion is the whining lots of other users are referring to! If the ME3 airlines are such a danger to the US3, why are they not competing head on with them?? I cannot imagine that a US3 customer would prefer a 1-stop connection (in DOH/DXB/AUH) to get to India, rather then a non-stop flight from any US east coast city like ATL.

I could go through the video second by second to dismantle the blatantly false or twisted figures or out of context statements. In the end it comes down that an airline like EK has a completely different business model then DL, that functions very well and runs out of an efficient and modern airport that is located in a wealthy, tax-free and "business friendly" country.

kasimir wrote:

TigerFlyer wrote:

While some dismiss it as "whining" there is not a single statement in the video that is not fact based and substantiated.

Its a bunch of twisted bullshit my friend put together in rhetoric style that we only know from Donald Trump!

Looking at the video again, I understand for who this is made, its made for their own employees so Delta can use this as a silly excuse when discussing any labour or union disputes. This way they can play victim and don't be responsible for anything and point the finger elsewhere. Delta must have done some studies and found out that this type of communication must hit a nerve with most of their employees (possibly Trump voters and/or Fox viewers with an extremely nationalistic worldview).

I just checked Delta's 2016 financial figures and they posted a $7 billion net profit, that is quite a good profit and they are stating in the video that they cannot buy new planes or open new international routes (to India). Please tell me, what or who is holding DL back leasing/buying new planes and opening new routes to India??? They even stated in the video that their customers are asking for this but have to refer to other airlines!
This in my opinion is the whining lots of other users are referring to! If the ME3 airlines are such a danger to the US3, why are they not competing head on with them?? I cannot imagine that a US3 customer would prefer a 1-stop connection (in DOH/DXB/AUH) to get to India, rather then a non-stop flight from any US east coast city like ATL.

I could go through the video second by second to dismantle the blatantly false or twisted figures or out of context statements. In the end it comes down that an airline like EK has a completely different business model then DL, that functions very well and runs out of an efficient and modern airport that is located in a wealthy, tax-free and "business friendly" country.

I don't travel to the Middle East but based in NYC I travel to Europe, Infrequently India, and often to SE Asia. I generally fly UA as I live in lower Manhattan and EWR is the easiest airport for me to reach. Overall I suspect that the US3 are looking at the future when an airline like DL, probably today one of the world's most profitable airlines, is wondering how to remain as such with a new onslaught of ULCC now following the ME3. US carriers received huge subsidies after 9/11 and during their various stints through Chapter 11. ME3 carriers may receive more in direct subsidies, I couldn't say. But as someone who can decide what airline I fly, so long as I can get a flat bed seat on UA and qualify toward annual spend to make sure I keep my Global Services (GS) status, the ME3 don't offer a compelling advantage. Most flight times to Europe and Asia would be longer, and India is an infrequent need. GS checking in at maybe 4 USA UA hubs can be through security in 10 minutes. I tend to east as little as possible and if I need to drink the champagne served is fine, Nicholas Feuillat versus probably a grander name on the ME3. So while I acknowledge that US carriers offer inferior service than the ME3, when you times by 10x or 20x the savings in flight hours per year, the quicker airport processing, the fact that a flat bed seat is pretty much the same once you are asleep, I ultimately choose to fly the world's most despised airline brand (slowly making a comeback maybe) because of the perceived advantages to me. I can't judge on bigger issues such as subsidies. I can easily forgo the more extensive food offerings of the ME3 by the perks UA throws my way for a shorter flight and faster airport wait times. As many have said, the ME3 and US3 are currently not in a head to head battle anyway. And DL possibly is using the video to warn it's staff of a potentially unlevel playing field in the years ahead, whether from the Mid East or elsewhere. But if you fly a lot, getting the fastest trip out and back in comfort with amazing recognition is going to make one loyal to whatever airline serves your flying patterns best. As a traveler I don't care about the unfair subsidies argument which I can grasp certainly but then again many Boeing workers are benefiting from ME3 orders. I like to support UA because I am American and EWR is the start and end of most of my int'l trips. But if for some reason I was flying once a month to Hyderabad or anywhere that was not Delhi or Mumbai, I would probably go with a ME3 carrier (minus laptop ban madness). The world is unfairly competitive - and every company will do what it can to get itself one leg up over its competitor. Because let's face it, our leaders are certainly not showing us, as citizens, that playing fair is smart!! Verdict for me - video is a tacky attempt by one of the better US Int'l carriers to keep the cashflow max positive at all costs. Delta seems to be more vocal than AA and UA when calling out the Gulf big boys!

I knew there was something wrong with the OP's title, its quite misleading. Maybe the mods can change it to, 'DL Releases Educational ME3 Video. After all, it is quite educational and quite the eye opener about how much the ME3 actually takes advantage of global airlines with its endless billions upon billions of dollars of subsidies.

Wow! Bunch of crying babies! US3 need new CEOs who know how to compete. It's like McDonald make a campaign against Outback Steakhouse and say our American burger flipper is losing his job, because people started eating steak instead of our Junkfood. Yes. With all respect, quality of US3 product is junk in eyes of the consumer.

let us be honest here, given the subsidies - US Airlines need to polish on their Inter-personal skills. I have had the chance to work for a ME carrier and behavior towards ones passengers are their topmost priority alongside their amenities. Likewise the hire from all over the world, as a Trainer for Inflight, it has proven to really sensitized all personnel to all cultures not grown in the States but authentically from where they were hired and they tend to be more attuned to the destinations of origin they fly too. Just saying. It is a cultural change if US carriers would want to repackage its image. People care can out power government subsidies.

What a disgusting video. DL's CEO and his way of communication reminds me of our beloved president Trump and his twits...

amax1977 wrote:

Wow! Bunch of crying babies! US3 need new CEOs who know how to compete. It's like McDonald make a campaign against Outback Steakhouse and say our American burger flipper is losing his job, because people started eating steak instead of our Junkfood. Yes. With all respect, quality of US3 product is junk in eyes of the consumer.

I will agree that two out of the three US3 are junk. DL happens to be the lone US airline that stands out as top notch. Now, if only they can get there hands on a few 20 or 30 billion dollars that they don't have to pay back, they to could install showers on their planes. But, if you consider the CEO of an airline (AAB) who would be willing to 'make a deal with the devil' a not notch airline, than there is obviously no trying to talk sense into you.

jumbojet wrote:

I will agree that two out of the three US3 are junk. DL happens to be the lone US airline that stands out as top notch.

No they don't. Just as shitty as the rest of them.

Now, if only they can get there hands on a few 20 or 30 billion dollars that they don't have to pay back, they to could install showers on their planes.

[/quote]

Yeah right. Upper management will use it to pay themselves some hefty bonuses as a job well done for securing the money. The rest will be used to produce a few more videos in preparation for the next round of cuts. Of course the employees and fanboys will readily eat it up and continue to whine and complain. Can't really blame management if their employees are gullible morons.

TigerFlyer wrote:

While some dismiss it as "whining" there is not a single statement in the video that is not fact based and substantiated.

Oh please, there's so much crap that doesn't even approach truth in that video. DL has cut exactly ONE route that they attributed to the ME3 - DXB. A flight that was, incidentally, always full - and yes, we all know, full doesn't equal profitable - but it was likely profitable at that. The video suggests that many routes have been cancelled, and will be if their wishes are not carried out.

jumbojet wrote:

I knew there was something wrong with the OP's title, its quite misleading. Maybe the mods can change it to, 'DL Releases Educational ME3 Video. After all, it is quite educational and quite the eye opener about how much the ME3 actually takes advantage of global airlines with its endless billions upon billions of dollars of subsidies.

"Educational". BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA. It's the same kind of schlock they start feeding their employees when a union comes sniffing around. Simply meant to instill fear in them - not necessarily with any merit, but there are those at DL that will believe anything they're told by their employer.

amax1977 wrote:

What a disgusting video. DL's CEO and his way of communication reminds me of our beloved president Trump and his twits...

Couldn't agree more. Delta is my favorite legacy carrier but this video was childish, ignorant, and biased.

As a frequent flyer, i will use the airline which offers me the best fair, comfort and safety. Whether it's subsidised by their goverment i dint care. If the frying pan is getting hot just jump out. The ME3 and low cost airlines made flying accessible to everyone and i think DL should be grateful. I feel like they are saying ME3 get out and we charge as much as we want. The world has changed and they need to accept and move one. After all DL likes second hand planes, low capital costs, let them offer better fares after that. I will fly the ME3 with newer planes

When you can't win, change the rules, "reprogram the Kobayashi Maru". Whether that's "Original Thinking" or "Cheating", that's up to the customer.

Domestically I fly them, if I have to, I prefer WN though. Internationally, I avoid them like the plague, their hard and soft products are just plain inferior even to BA and VS, forget ME3 premium. Of course that's just personal experience. All the other stuff in the video, about financials, subsidies, etc. .... we here at Airliners.net forums care about, but the average customer who buys their economy class tickets on Kayak or some such website, doesn't give 2 hoots.

If not for ME3, Boeing and Airbus wide body lines would look very different. We would have our (U.S) Senators & Congressmen and Ministers from European countries lining up at the Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Doha palaces, asking them to buy our products and keep our lines operational to save jobs. No offense, but that's just how international big business works.

If US3 CEOs can play dirty, don't think ME3 CEOs and can't.

This video reminds me of the press release a few years ago, virtually tying the ME3 to September 11th. Of course, it was a ludicrous thing to say and there was a lot of back peddling. But ... the seed was planted, and the seed was the intent.

TigerFlyer wrote:

This is a very real problem. US carriers cannot compete against sovereign states with enormous wealth that use their airlines as instruments of state policy. Etihad's own board documents state that but for subsidies they are not a viable going concern.

This is a excellent point.

Saying that "Delta should just step up and compete", is not the issue. Remember, as a-netters, we know that over 90% of travellers do not choose an airline by on-board experience. If price is the main selection variable, how does a publicly held corporation compete against a governmental body? Especially when that governmental body not only offers a safety net financially, but also controls gates, slots, visas, etc? Or pays for and builds then controls all ground infrastructure?

I am not saying this is the only issue. But to say, "Gee, if Delta had better food and menues in Economy, then they'd win against the ME3", is a little naive.

longhauler wrote:

If price is the main selection variable, how does a publicly held corporation compete against a governmental body? Especially when that governmental body not only offers a safety net financially, but also controls gates, slots, visas, etc? Or pays for and builds then controls all ground infrastructure?

I am not saying this is the only issue. But to say, "Gee, if Delta had better food and menues in Economy, then they'd win against the ME3", is a little naive.

Oh come on, how is this any different compared to Chinese airlines or European airlines that were state owned/run entities in the past? Many European states still own large stakes of their airlines to this day. Don't forget that the largest sovereign wealth fund is the Norwegian SWF and that invest in companies all over the world including Norwegian companies. How is that any different than the Abu Dhabi Fund investing a part of its assets into their airlines?

Many US airports (and other infrastructure) are owned and/or run by US government entities as well, how is this any different then the Dubai government owning their airport with the only difference being that Dubai is putting an emphasis on making Dubai's airport one of the best in the world??

How is the whole situation any different from Singapore Airlines and Singapore Airport?? In fact the gulf countries are just copying the whole concept of Singapore (as global hub for a densely populated area), with the important difference that Dubai is strategically located so that over a third of the world’s population lives within a four-hour flight from Dubai, and two-thirds are within an eight-hour flight.
Why should they not try to capitalize on that advantage?

I understand why Delta is doing this and trying to manipulate their own employees, but I don't understand why some a.netters are buying Delta's propaganda without asking any tough questions or taking it with a grain of salt???

KTPAFlyer wrote:

This is a textbook case of why protectionism is a bad idea.
It preys on the fact that the other side will suffer, but when you're on the receiving end of that game, it hurts. Etihad and Qatar are definitely not making any sort of meaningful profit but there's no question that EK is and that's who DL should be worried about. EK is the one that's actually playing DL on a level playing field and guess what, they happen to be the one that will make DL the next Pan Am (as DL likes to believe). Based on that alone, Delta is spewing lies because that means that even on a level playing field, they can't hold a candle to EK. There's no denying that EK runs a better operation, whether that's because of efficiency on the ground, better technology, smarter management, constant marketing, consolidated fleet, easier connectivity or just overall competiveness. It's not hard to see why EK is generally more resilient even as 100% of its market depends heavily on the geopolitical situation whereas DL has the domestic market to fall back on. As for EY and QR, while hemorrhaging losses, the billions of dollars pumped into those airlines are used to fill Boeing's order books, so while unfair, DL is definitely wrong about losing jobs. The 777X program exists in the first place solely because of the ME3.

You essentially just summarized what I came here to post, great points.

Cheers.

kasimir wrote:

TigerFlyer wrote:

While some dismiss it as "whining" there is not a single statement in the video that is not fact based and substantiated.

Its a bunch of twisted bullshit my friend put together in rhetoric style that we only know from Donald Trump!

Looking at the video again, I understand for who this is made, its made for their own employees so Delta can use this as a silly excuse when discussing any labour or union disputes. This way they can play victim and don't be responsible for anything and point the finger elsewhere. Delta must have done some studies and found out that this type of communication must hit a nerve with most of their employees (possibly Trump voters and/or Fox viewers with an extremely nationalistic worldview).

I just checked Delta's 2016 financial figures and they posted a $7 billion net profit, that is quite a good profit and they are stating in the video that they cannot buy new planes or open new international routes (to India). Please tell me, what or who is holding DL back leasing/buying new planes and opening new routes to India??? They even stated in the video that their customers are asking for this but have to refer to other airlines!
This in my opinion is the whining lots of other users are referring to! If the ME3 airlines are such a danger to the US3, why are they not competing head on with them?? I cannot imagine that a US3 customer would prefer a 1-stop connection (in DOH/DXB/AUH) to get to India, rather then a non-stop flight from any US east coast city like ATL.

I could go through the video second by second to dismantle the blatantly false or twisted figures or out of context statements. In the end it comes down that an airline like EK has a completely different business model then DL, that functions very well and runs out of an efficient and modern airport that is located in a wealthy, tax-free and "business friendly" country.

Snowflake. MAGA!!

This video is just sad... seems fitting for the times unfortunately.

I have to say that these airlines are also pushing innovation in design in all classes... May tell the US3 it's time to put your money where your mouth is and compete.

The number of sales that Delta has run this year to flood the market with cheap economy seats, particularly to Europe, every few weeks. Come on... they are doing it to themselves in some ways. People know what they are going to get when you fly the US3... disappointment in many ways. I say this having United 1K status, that I still would rather fly a foreign carrier to all international destinations over the US3.

OMG! I read much of this thread before I dared open the video

WTF! How can a current CEO sit in front of a camera and spout this drivel? How do other international CEOs treat the US3 CEOs when they meet at all of these international meetings they seem to attend endlessly?

Is this how Trump and Corporate USA plan on "making America great again"? Anyone associated with this video should be ashamed for making America more stupid than it actually makes itself today

kasimir wrote:

longhauler wrote:

If price is the main selection variable, how does a publicly held corporation compete against a governmental body? Especially when that governmental body not only offers a safety net financially, but also controls gates, slots, visas, etc? Or pays for and builds then controls all ground infrastructure?

I am not saying this is the only issue. But to say, "Gee, if Delta had better food and menues in Economy, then they'd win against the ME3", is a little naive.

Oh come on, how is this any different compared to Chinese airlines or European airlines that were state owned/run entities in the past? Many European states still own large stakes of their airlines to this day. Don't forget that the largest sovereign wealth fund is the Norwegian SWF and that invest in companies all over the world including Norwegian companies. How is that any different than the Abu Dhabi Fund investing a part of its assets into their airlines?

Many US airports (and other infrastructure) are owned and/or run by US government entities as well, how is this any different then the Dubai government owning their airport with the only difference being that Dubai is putting an emphasis on making Dubai's airport one of the best in the world??

How is the whole situation any different from Singapore Airlines and Singapore Airport?? In fact the gulf countries are just copying the whole concept of Singapore (as global hub for a densely populated area), with the important difference that Dubai is strategically located so that over a third of the world’s population lives within a four-hour flight from Dubai, and two-thirds are within an eight-hour flight.
Why should they not try to capitalize on that advantage?

I understand why Delta is doing this and trying to manipulate their own employees, but I don't understand why some a.netters are buying Delta's propaganda without asking any tough questions or taking it with a grain of salt???

The notion that Delta is trying to "manipulate their own employees" is patently absurd. Delta has the best employee relations in the business and cares deeply about them. Consistently named one of the best companies in America to work for. Groups routinely show up to lobby congress on issues of importance and this is certainly one of them.

Richard Anderson spotted this as a huge problem years ago and made it a top priority. When the ME3 have more capacity on order than the entire combined industry international fleets of the US industry, that's an issue. It's like sitting in Poland in 1939 and asking, gee, what do you think they are going to do with all those tanks sitting out there.

US carriers are the most effecient in the world, but the playing field is not level. With $50b in subsidy, no airport infrastructure costs, and no taxes, we could all offer Jennifer Aniston and onboard showers.

Quote: The notion that Delta is trying to "manipulate their own employees" is patently absurd. Delta has the best employee relations in the business and cares deeply about them. Consistently named one of the best companies in America to work for. Groups routinely show up to lobby congress on issues of importance and this is certainly one of them.

Richard Anderson spotted this as a huge problem years ago and made it a top priority. When the ME3 have more capacity on order than the entire combined industry international fleets of the US industry, that's an issue. It's like sitting in Poland in 1939 and asking, gee, what do you think they are going to do with all those tanks sitting out there.

US carriers are the most effecient in the world, but the playing field is not level. With $50b in subsidy, no airport infrastructure costs, and no taxes, we could all offer Jennifer Aniston and onboard showers.


That's the best laugh I could have tonight - an entire series of juvenile BS, by someone who cant make up his own mind when fed corporate crap on a spoon! I cant think which statement is the most stupid, but serially is a good start!

TigerFlyer wrote:

kasimir wrote:

longhauler wrote:

If price is the main selection variable, how does a publicly held corporation compete against a governmental body? Especially when that governmental body not only offers a safety net financially, but also controls gates, slots, visas, etc? Or pays for and builds then controls all ground infrastructure?

I am not saying this is the only issue. But to say, "Gee, if Delta had better food and menues in Economy, then they'd win against the ME3", is a little naive.

Oh come on, how is this any different compared to Chinese airlines or European airlines that were state owned/run entities in the past? Many European states still own large stakes of their airlines to this day. Don't forget that the largest sovereign wealth fund is the Norwegian SWF and that invest in companies all over the world including Norwegian companies. How is that any different than the Abu Dhabi Fund investing a part of its assets into their airlines?

Many US airports (and other infrastructure) are owned and/or run by US government entities as well, how is this any different then the Dubai government owning their airport with the only difference being that Dubai is putting an emphasis on making Dubai's airport one of the best in the world??

How is the whole situation any different from Singapore Airlines and Singapore Airport?? In fact the gulf countries are just copying the whole concept of Singapore (as global hub for a densely populated area), with the important difference that Dubai is strategically located so that over a third of the world’s population lives within a four-hour flight from Dubai, and two-thirds are within an eight-hour flight.
Why should they not try to capitalize on that advantage?

I understand why Delta is doing this and trying to manipulate their own employees, but I don't understand why some a.netters are buying Delta's propaganda without asking any tough questions or taking it with a grain of salt???

The notion that Delta is trying to "manipulate their own employees" is patently absurd. Delta has the best employee relations in the business and cares deeply about them. Consistently named one of the best companies in America to work for. Groups routinely show up to lobby congress on issues of importance and this is certainly one of them.

Richard Anderson spotted this as a huge problem years ago and made it a top priority. When the ME3 have more capacity on order than the entire combined industry international fleets of the US industry, that's an issue. It's like sitting in Poland in 1939 and asking, gee, what do you think they are going to do with all those tanks sitting out there.

US carriers are the most effecient in the world, but the playing field is not level. With $50b in subsidy, no airport infrastructure costs, and no taxes, we could all offer Jennifer Aniston and onboard showers.

Equating the ME3 with the Nazis is disgusting. Clearly, Delta is doing an effective job influencing employees.

TigerFlyer wrote:

US carriers are the most effecient in the world, but the playing field is not level. With $50b in subsidy, no airport infrastructure costs, and no taxes, we could all offer Jennifer Aniston and onboard showers.

If the US carriers are "so efficient" why do they need Chapter 11 bailouts? Let them go to the wall. Perhaps you can go through penny by penny the $50b in subsidy? No ariport imfrastructure costs? This is what I've found
http://www.dubaiairports.ae/docs/default-source/Publications/dubai-intl-(airport-charges)-commercial.pdf?sfvrsn=0

Would you agree that a charge on airbridge occupancy is an "airport infrastucture cost"?

danj555 wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

danj555 wrote:

I'm an American. I hate propaganda. Sure they are getting money from the government. Who hasn't? You're telling me none of the US3 has received a penny from the govt? Besides, they are trying to play catch up with the other blue chip players out there. You don't see Europe's airlines making videos like this and waging war against the ME3. Man up honestly. AA has more planes that the entire ME3 combined, hell, each of the US3 have more planes that the entire ME3 combined. And the US3 make more money that anyone, anywhere. Bunch of babies.

The ME3 and US3 barely compete either. There is very little overlap between the route networks. The US3 are only faced with a fraction of the exposure to the ME3 that the EU airlines are.

Totally agree 100%. Want to fly to Asia? Loads of cheaper faster alternatives. Want to fly to AUS or NZ? Cheaper and faster alternatives. Want to fly to SA? Cant. Want to fly to Euro? Cant. It really only work for people wanting to go to Middle East, Africa, and India. For like 80% of the world there is something better.

Even they have to mind Turkish Airlines, which can serve many of those places with narrow body or smaller wide body planes. The real question is how any of them can serve South America profitably.

sassiciai wrote:

That's the best laugh I could have tonight - an entire series of juvenile BS, by someone who cant make up his own mind when fed corporate crap on a spoon! I cant think which statement is the most stupid, but serially is a good start!

Okay, so what, specifically do you take issue with? Do you not understand the nature of subsidy, and that the US vigorously enforces against it in every industry except aviation? Go back and listen to the comments of Charlene Barchevsky. The former head of USTR, lead trade representative of the United States.

David_itl wrote:

. If the US carriers are "so efficient" why do they need Chapter 11 bailouts? Let them go to the wall. Perhaps you can go through penny by penny the $50b in subsidy? No ariport imfrastructure costs? This is what I've found
http://www.dubaiairports.ae/docs/default-source/Publications/dubai-intl-(airport-charges)-commercial.pdf?sfvrsn=0

Would you agree that a charge on airbridge occupancy is an "airport infrastucture cost"?

First, a chapter 11 bankruptcy proceeding is very different from having an open government checkbook. It is a painful and difficult process resulting in losses for shareholders, creditors, and employees. If you can't attract new capital with a viable business plan, you wind up in a chapter 7 liquidation. As has happened to numerous US carriers.


Second, infracture costs and user fees are related but distinct issues. All airports charge user fees. But compare for instance that Delta paid $4b with private money to redevolp T4 at JFK, whereas Emirates terminal was paid for with UAE government funds.


Third, the direct and indirect subsides received by the ME3 are well documented by some of the most reputable global accounting and law firms on the fair skies website.

TigerFlyer wrote:

The notion that Delta is trying to "manipulate their own employees" is patently absurd. Delta has the best employee relations in the business and cares deeply about them. Consistently named one of the best companies in America to work for. Groups routinely show up to lobby congress on issues of importance and this is certainly one of them.

Richard Anderson spotted this as a huge problem years ago and made it a top priority. When the ME3 have more capacity on order than the entire combined industry international fleets of the US industry, that's an issue. It's like sitting in Poland in 1939 and asking, gee, what do you think they are going to do with all those tanks sitting out there.

US carriers are the most effecient in the world, but the playing field is not level. With $50b in subsidy, no airport infrastructure costs, and no taxes, we could all offer Jennifer Aniston and onboard showers.

Just stop trolling my friend. I did not use the word "manipulate" and what other reason is there to create such a video that is DIRECTED TOWARDS THEIR EMPLOYEES, other then for Delta to prepare for future union demands, since the last couple of years have been quite profitable and the employees might want a piece of the pie!

First of all, where is this figure of $50b coming from and second of all it is NOT a subsidy and third of all (and has been mentioned by others in thread) EK just owns 2 planes the rest is on lease (this important fact is not mentioned in the video). To cover all the leasing cost you need cash flow and since I can read a balance sheet, EK for example makes plenty of revenue to cover all those costs... It is Qatar and Etihad that at the moment run at a loss.
Clearly in the video they mention that the new modern Dubai airport is an indirect subsidy and is an unfair advantage. It is quite funny, since the airport of Atlanta is owned by the city of Atlanta and still is the largest airport by passenger numbers. So since the US government (city of Atlanta) has financed that gigantic airport isn't that also a advantage for Delta?

And again my question, what or who is Delta holding back from flying to India right now?? They can lease new planes and expand internationally, they make plenty of profits to do so!

And again, how is this scenario any different from Singapore airlines???

TigerFlyer wrote:

Second, infracture costs and user fees are related but distinct issues. All airports charge user fees. But compare for instance that Delta paid $4b with private money to redevolp T4 at JFK, whereas Emirates terminal was paid for with UAE government funds.

National investments are frequent tea everywhere, as gives support to private companies to operate, generating further revenues for itself and the country. The fact that the US government decided itself to not do that, is a poor excuse to blame others for using Keynesian policies. Bad decision guys, deal with it or change your mind, crying for that is a shame.

You are also going to sue IAG/BA, for roughly $7B, right? (6.19B euro, final cost)

http://www.architecturerevived.com/bara ... rid-spain/

This investment, that currently capitalises a good % of the connectivity between south america and europe assigned to be used directly by the Spanish government to Iberia (currently IAG), as exclusive operator.

I'm cool with DL but this is silly.

kasimir wrote:

TigerFlyer wrote:

The notion that Delta is trying to "manipulate their own employees" is patently absurd. Delta has the best employee relations in the business and cares deeply about them. Consistently named one of the best companies in America to work for. Groups routinely show up to lobby congress on issues of importance and this is certainly one of them.

Richard Anderson spotted this as a huge problem years ago and made it a top priority. When the ME3 have more capacity on order than the entire combined industry international fleets of the US industry, that's an issue. It's like sitting in Poland in 1939 and asking, gee, what do you think they are going to do with all those tanks sitting out there.

US carriers are the most effecient in the world, but the playing field is not level. With $50b in subsidy, no airport infrastructure costs, and no taxes, we could all offer Jennifer Aniston and onboard showers.

Just stop trolling my friend. I did not use the word "manipulate" and what other reason is there to create such a video that is DIRECTED TOWARDS THEIR EMPLOYEES, other then for Delta to prepare for future union demands, since the last couple of years have been quite profitable and the employees might want a piece of the pie!

First of all, where is this figure of $50b coming from and second of all it is NOT a subsidy and third of all (and has been mentioned by others in thread) EK just owns 2 planes the rest is on lease (this important fact is not mentioned in the video). To cover all the leasing cost you need cash flow and since I can read a balance sheet, EK for example makes plenty of revenue to cover all those costs... It is Qatar and Etihad that at the moment run at a loss.
Clearly in the video they mention that the new modern Dubai airport is an indirect subsidy and is an unfair advantage. It is quite funny, since the airport of Atlanta is owned by the city of Atlanta and still is the largest airport by passenger numbers. So since the US government (city of Atlanta) has financed that gigantic airport isn't that also a advantage for Delta?

And again my question, what or who is Delta holding back from flying to India right now?? They can lease new planes and expand internationally, they make plenty of profits to do so!

And again, how is this scenario any different from Singapore airlines???

First, you most certainly did say "manipulate". Go back and read your own post.

Second, this has absolutely nothing to do with labor relations at DL. Delta has an effective and motivated work force. Having an energized and proactive employee group is part of the campaign. Although DL has been on point, all three US carriers are together on this.

Third, the reason DL no longer serves India with its own metal is a direct result of subsidized competition by the Gulf carriers, and of course Air India itself. Those were viable and profitable routes, where DL had made substantial investments. But no longer. You deploy your assets where you can make money. Simple as that.

Fourth, Singapore was a well run and profitable airline. It did not depend on its government to keep in business.

Fifth, here are the souce documents that detail the $50b in subsidy. http://www.openandfairskies.com/subsidies/

how is this impacting the flying public? Do these companies want a monopoly over international travel so that they can screw us like they're doing on domestic travel. last I checked they're making record profits. what more do they want? I for one travel exclusively with United and star alliance airlines but I don't mind competition to keep prices under control.