AF will launch flights from PTP (Guadeloupe) and FDF (Martinique) to Atlanta 2 times per week from December with an A320.


http://www.luchtzak.be/airlines/air-france/air-france-will-link-atlanta-french-antilles-december-2017/

Anyone know the 2 A320s based in PTP be enough or if they will ferry over a third one ?

Great news! I know plenty of people who have been, but I never have. Part of it was that most existing itineraries take forever from the west coast. One stop from ATL would make a lot more itineraries in the U.S. possible.

While I realize that Air France has operated A320s in the Caribbean and they fly to MIA I would think that it is a lot more cost effective for Delta to fly to PTP and FDF with their own equipment. Could Delta codeshare and revenue share with Air France as part of a joint venture? The reason for ATL is probably for connnections to the Delta network, so why use Air France equipment?

Newbiepilot wrote:

While I realize that Air France has operated A320s in the Caribbean and they fly to MIA I would think that it is a lot more cost effective for Delta to fly to PTP and FDF with their own equipment. Could Delta codeshare and revenue share with Air France as part of a joint venture? The reason for ATL is probably for connnections to the Delta network, so why use Air France equipment?

IIRC, DL and AF already have a JV. AF has 2 A320's based in Pointe-à-Pitre flying inter-Caribbean routes as well as flights to MIA, so the flights to ATL are just an expansion of their Caribbean based route network. I'm not sure why it would make more sense for DL to fly the routes if these additions allow AF to maximize their fleet utilization.

airbazar wrote:

Newbiepilot wrote:

While I realize that Air France has operated A320s in the Caribbean and they fly to MIA I would think that it is a lot more cost effective for Delta to fly to PTP and FDF with their own equipment. Could Delta codeshare and revenue share with Air France as part of a joint venture? The reason for ATL is probably for connnections to the Delta network, so why use Air France equipment?

IIRC, DL and AF already have a JV. AF has 2 A320's based in Pointe-à-Pitre flying inter-Caribbean routes as well as flights to MIA, so the flights to ATL are just an expansion of their Caribbean based route network. I'm not sure why it would make more sense for DL to fly the routes if these additions allow AF to maximize their fleet utilization.

Also, don't forget simple branding and market presence. Air France has served both islands for years and is obviously well known in the market there and also by tourists who visit Guadeloupe and Martinique. While everyone on A Net may instantly realize the Delta connection, the average traveler may not.

I always wondered why AF's inter-Caribbean A320 service uses MIA as there US port of entry.
Could this twice weekly ATL new service be testing the water before switching all flights to ATL? Or is this a response to DY?

On a side note I will be on the MIA - PTP flights in October for my honeymoon!!

Newbiepilot wrote:

The reason for ATL is probably for connnections to the Delta network, so why use Air France equipment?

What a strange concept: Flying to France with a French Airline...

AF773 wrote:

I always wondered why AF's inter-Caribbean A320 service uses MIA as there US port of entry.
Could this twice weekly ATL new service be testing the water before switching all flights to ATL? Or is this a response to DY?

On a side note I will be on the MIA - PTP flights in October for my honeymoon!!

Because MIA is where the demand is.

...and this has NOTHING to do with DY flying to these destinations from the USA.

Slightly relevant.
Are the AF A320s permanently based in the Caribbean or do they cycle them between mainland France and the islands?

Interesting. It appears that Norwegian is stimulating interest and demand for FDF/PTP in the U.S. I wonder if AA will respond in any way in MIA.

a320fan wrote:

Slightly relevant.
Are the AF A320s permanently based in the Caribbean or do they cycle them between mainland France and the islands?

They are permanently based, they even have a special "caribbean" config

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:

a320fan wrote:

Slightly relevant.
Are the AF A320s permanently based in the Caribbean or do they cycle them between mainland France and the islands?

They are permanently based, they even have a special "caribbean" config

Whats the special Caribbean config?

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:

a320fan wrote:

Slightly relevant.
Are the AF A320s permanently based in the Caribbean or do they cycle them between mainland France and the islands?

They are permanently based, they even have a special "caribbean" config

lesfalls wrote:

Whats the special Caribbean config?

No kidding! https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_F ... eriors.php

Peace

how does AF crew these flights?

With such a small fleet, do they have permanent crew based on the islands, or do they rotate crews out from mainland France, or some combination?

Richard28 wrote:

how does AF crew these flights?

With such a small fleet, do they have permanent crew based on the islands, or do they rotate crews out from mainland France, or some combination?

Dear Workers of AF,

Would you like to work on a tropcial Island for a year or so, vacation house included.

[_] yes
[_] no

With Regards,

Managment

ei146 wrote:

Newbiepilot wrote:

The reason for ATL is probably for connnections to the Delta network, so why use Air France equipment?

What a strange concept: Flying to France with a French Airline...

Well I understand your point. Air France has been flying in the Caribbean for years, but only to MIA. The two A320s have to be expensive to operate and given the connections in ATL I would think DL would have lower operating costs and transfers would be easier. It just seems a joint venture with DL metal to the islands could increase demand and frequency. DL already has a large network from ATL to the Caribbean and the Air France flights are orphans that require connecting traffic since O/D to ATL is probably far lower than MIA

FlyRow wrote:

Richard28 wrote:

how does AF crew these flights?

With such a small fleet, do they have permanent crew based on the islands, or do they rotate crews out from mainland France, or some combination?

Dear Workers of AF,

Would you like to work on a tropcial Island for a year or so, vacation house included.

[_] yes
[_] no
[_] what is this 'work' you speak of? I'm calling a strike!

With Regards,

Managment

fixed that for you.

Seriously, though, the Air France recruitment site (http://recrutement.airfrance.com) lists jobs in the DOMTOM (the Overseas Departments and Territories) separately from Mainland ones, so I believe they have their own crew bases there.

Newbiepilot wrote:

Well I understand your point. Air France has been flying in the Caribbean for years, but only to MIA. The two A320s have to be expensive to operate and given the connections in ATL I would think DL would have lower operating costs and transfers would be easier. It just seems a joint venture with DL metal to the islands could increase demand and frequency. DL already has a large network from ATL to the Caribbean and the Air France flights are orphans that require connecting traffic since O/D to ATL is probably far lower than MIA

When comparing costs, we have to remember that AF already has stations at PTP and FDF, so the costs on that end are more or less sunk. The cost difference thus may not be as much as you think. How do you see transfers as easier if DL operated the service? It's not like JFK where there is a terminal change involved with a transfer to AF. At worst, it's one more stop on the train.

This is just AF codesharing on twice-weeky DL flights. I expect the routing to be ATL-PTP-FDF. Seats are not on sale yet.

gunnerman wrote:

This is just AF codesharing on twice-weeky DL flights. I expect the routing to be ATL-PTP-FDF. Seats are not on sale yet.

Where do you see that? It's unclear in the story.

Someone83 wrote:

airbazar wrote:

IIRC, DL and AF already have a JV.

Does their JV also cover Caribean-US ops?

Good question.
http://news.delta.com/trans-atlantic-jo ... fact-sheet
It says here that that N.America and Tahiti is covered by the JV, I would think that Martinique and Guadeloupe would be too. They were probably not listed in that article because there were no flights between a DL hub and those destinations.

That'll keep DY out of ATL.

Ggui9 wrote:

AF will launch flights from PTP (Guadeloupe) and FDF (Martinique) to Atlanta 2 times per week from December with an A320.


http://www.luchtzak.be/airlines/air-france/air-france-will-link-atlanta-french-antilles-december-2017/

Another dumb move by AF. ATL? Everyone and his/her emotional support lobster know that DTW would have been the better choice. AF would have made a bizillgillion dollars flying from DTW to the Caribbean, but like DL, they go ahead and try to stuff everything into ATL.

Oh well. Add AF to the no fly list.

commavia wrote:

Interesting. It appears that Norwegian is stimulating interest and demand for FDF/PTP in the U.S. I wonder if AA will respond in any way in MIA.

Stimulating interest? no.

This is a slap to the face for DY by Delta/skyteam. They will connect every city in the network to FDF/PTP on rock bottom fares.

I'm surprised that AF doesn't try to compete with DY to the Northeast, even if it means a third plane based at PTP. AF has had a Caribbean network for years...originally it was a single B732.

Air France since 1947 has held a base in the Antilles, initially with flying boats.

Today over 1.5million travel annually on AF island services in Caribbean and South America.

Adding merely 2 weekly service to ATL to connect with Skyteam partner seems like a low risk and potentially beneficial outcome for airlines and clients.

ocracoke wrote:

Ggui9 wrote:

AF will launch flights from PTP (Guadeloupe) and FDF (Martinique) to Atlanta 2 times per week from December with an A320.


http://www.luchtzak.be/airlines/air-france/air-france-will-link-atlanta-french-antilles-december-2017/

Another dumb move by AF. ATL? Everyone and his/her emotional support lobster know that DTW would have been the better choice. AF would have made a bizillgillion dollars flying from DTW to the Caribbean, but like DL, they go ahead and try to stuff everything into ATL.

Oh well. Add AF to the no fly list.

They probably can't build the rotations to be same day flying to DTW. Everyone you can connect through DTW you can connect through ATL, and DTW doesn't support enough O&D traffic to justify it otherwise. Also DL probably dictated the schedule and connectivity here.

In short, relax.

ocracoke wrote:

Ggui9 wrote:

AF will launch flights from PTP (Guadeloupe) and FDF (Martinique) to Atlanta 2 times per week from December with an A320.


http://www.luchtzak.be/airlines/air-france/air-france-will-link-atlanta-french-antilles-december-2017/

Another dumb move by AF. ATL? Everyone and his/her emotional support lobster know that DTW would have been the better choice. AF would have made a bizillgillion dollars flying from DTW to the Caribbean, but like DL, they go ahead and try to stuff everything into ATL.

Oh well. Add AF to the no fly list.

They should have based their A380s there ! At least they would finally make money !

aemoreira1981 wrote:

I'm surprised that AF doesn't try to compete with DY to the Northeast, even if it means a third plane based at PTP. AF has had a Caribbean network for years...originally it was a single B732.

I think ATL is a great place to start service. Yes, the northeast probably has more demand than elsewhere, but ATL will be able to pull traffic from pretty much all over the country, including the northeast. As it is now, the farther west you originate, the longer and more convoluted the itineraries become for trying to get to FDF, PTP, and others. It takes pretty much a full day (or worse, in some cases), whereas the heft of DL's network out of ATL will mean pretty easy one-stop connecting service from all over. DY doesn't have that, and much of their operations are already clustered in the northeast as it is, so it makes sense for them to make a go of it from up there.

Not what I was expecting next for AF in ATL, but given DY's presence in the Caribbean I suppose this is a response to that. It'll be cool seeing those A320s in ATL. (Assuming it is actually AF operating the flights and not DL.)

catiii wrote:

ocracoke wrote:

Ggui9 wrote:

AF will launch flights from PTP (Guadeloupe) and FDF (Martinique) to Atlanta 2 times per week from December with an A320.


http://www.luchtzak.be/airlines/air-france/air-france-will-link-atlanta-french-antilles-december-2017/

Another dumb move by AF. ATL? Everyone and his/her emotional support lobster know that DTW would have been the better choice. AF would have made a bizillgillion dollars flying from DTW to the Caribbean, but like DL, they go ahead and try to stuff everything into ATL.

Oh well. Add AF to the no fly list.

They probably can't build the rotations to be same day flying to DTW. Everyone you can connect through DTW you can connect through ATL, and DTW doesn't support enough O&D traffic to justify it otherwise. Also DL probably dictated the schedule and connectivity here.

In short, relax.

I think ocracoke was being sarcastic

bomber996 wrote:

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:

a320fan wrote:

Slightly relevant.
Are the AF A320s permanently based in the Caribbean or do they cycle them between mainland France and the islands?

They are permanently based, they even have a special "caribbean" config

lesfalls wrote:

Whats the special Caribbean config?

No kidding! https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_F ... eriors.php

Peace

That's quite a tight fit!

tistpaa727 wrote:

bomber996 wrote:

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:

They are permanently based, they even have a special "caribbean" config

lesfalls wrote:

Whats the special Caribbean config?

No kidding! https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_F ... eriors.php

Peace

That's quite a tight fit!

Is it? That's the same number of seats as what's in DL's densest A320, and that includes a true F/J cabin and C+. Pitch in AF's Y cabin is a little better, but not by much.

Cubsrule wrote:

Newbiepilot wrote:

Well I understand your point. Air France has been flying in the Caribbean for years, but only to MIA. The two A320s have to be expensive to operate and given the connections in ATL I would think DL would have lower operating costs and transfers would be easier. It just seems a joint venture with DL metal to the islands could increase demand and frequency. DL already has a large network from ATL to the Caribbean and the Air France flights are orphans that require connecting traffic since O/D to ATL is probably far lower than MIA

When comparing costs, we have to remember that AF already has stations at PTP and FDF, so the costs on that end are more or less sunk. The cost difference thus may not be as much as you think. How do you see transfers as easier if DL operated the service? It's not like JFK where there is a terminal change involved with a transfer to AF. At worst, it's one more stop on the train.

Also consider the demand for these two islands. I think I remember reading this when Norwegian was starting up their services - the traffic to these French territories is mostly French in origin. They're not as popular as other Caribbean destinations among American travelers. Yet another reason (if this is part of the JV) for AF to do this flying rather than DL.

Someone83 wrote:

airbazar wrote:

IIRC, DL and AF already have a JV.

Does their JV also cover Caribean-US ops?

It should, as Guadeloupe and Martinique are as much part of France as Lyon or Nantes.

I always thought the next step in North America for AF Caribbean A320 would be JFK or YUL due to stronger local demand.
ATL makes more sense for connecting though.

winGl3t wrote:

I always thought the next step in North America for AF Caribbean A320 would be JFK or YUL due to stronger local demand.
ATL makes more sense for connecting though.

FDF/PTP-JFK/YUL will require ETOPS or a pretty lengthy diversion. SJU-BDA is a little bit more than 120 minutes.

brilliant response to DY. MIA has the demand but ATL can pull people from everywhere. I like this strike back...AF are the far larger airline in FDF and PTP

There's no question that MIA is the top destination for PTP- and FDF-originating O&D, but with nonstop flights and lower fares, Norwegian is likely cutting into AF's market quite a bit. AA has also relatively recently added nonstops to MIA. The advantage of ATL is that it offers connections to just about anywhere in North America on SkyTeam, which is important for the Antilles travellers who are quite loyal to AF. The other advantage is that it allows AF to compete directly with Norwegian on all its new routes, which wasn't possible given the very limited connection options and multi-stop routes through MIA.

I still think YUL (and maybe YYZ) are huge untapped markets for Norwegian and other carriers. Canadians have a much higher propensity to travel to the Caribbean than Americans and the French language is less of a barrier. AC charges a fortune for its flights from YUL to FDF and PTP.

AF773 wrote:

I always wondered why AF's inter-Caribbean A320 service uses MIA as there US port of entry.

Because it has more demand for those destinations than most of the rest of the USA combined.

catiii wrote:

They probably can't build the rotations to be same day flying to DTW. Everyone you can connect through DTW you can connect through ATL, and DTW doesn't support enough O&D traffic to justify it otherwise. Also DL probably dictated the schedule and connectivity here.

In short, relax.

......he's not serious, he's just taking a preemptive jab at a user who DOES make imbecilic posts that sound exactly like that, with flawless predictability/consistency.

catiii wrote:

They probably can't build the rotations to be same day flying to DTW. Everyone you can connect through DTW you can connect through ATL, and DTW doesn't support enough O&D traffic to justify it otherwise. Also DL probably dictated the schedule and connectivity here.

In short, relax.

You do realize that ocracoke is mocking a certain a.netter who loves DTW beyond measure and always complains when DL opens routes not involving DTW, right?

dcajet wrote:

Someone83 wrote:

airbazar wrote:

IIRC, DL and AF already have a JV.

Does their JV also cover Caribean-US ops?

It should, as Guadeloupe and Martinique are as much part of France as Lyon or Nantes.

This is true *but* (there is always a but in life), I am under the impression that many if not all French overseas departments are not in the Schengen zone. For example, St. Pierre & Miquelon, as much a part of France as Guadeloupe or Paris, but travel between St. Pierre and Canada *for citizens of both places* is IIRC lax, needing only a drivers license, no passport required whereas citizens of anywhere else need passports (just like a French person going from Paris to Montreal needs to present a passport.) I think Réunion is similar.

Probably both derive from the need to have tight integration with their neighbors much closer to them (i.e. Canada and South Africa). This does mean that I believe, though I am not sure, that you do, in fact go through immigration check when going from overseas departments to mainland France and vice versa. Otherwise someone from an African country who might need a visa to go to France can go to Réunion with only a passport and then hop on a "domestic" flight to France. See link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area#Territories_of_Schengen_states_outside_the_Area

Furthermore some might be out of the Eurozone or EU in terms of some economic regulations - again so that they can integrate themselves easier with their neighbors. I am a bit fuzzier about that.

Why that long discourse? Because I can see those different visa rules making a JV between US and a French Overseas department different enough so that it is not covered in any JV. Not sure it is the case but it is not a certainty that it would be covered just because Guadeloupe and Martinique are "France."

ocracoke wrote:

Ggui9 wrote:

AF will launch flights from PTP (Guadeloupe) and FDF (Martinique) to Atlanta 2 times per week from December with an A320.
http://www.luchtzak.be/airlines/air-france/air-france-will-link-atlanta-french-antilles-december-2017/

Another dumb move by AF. ATL? Everyone and his/her emotional support lobster know that DTW would have been the better choice. AF would have made a bizillgillion dollars flying from DTW to the Caribbean, but like DL, they go ahead and try to stuff everything into ATL.
Oh well. Add AF to the no fly list.

I think you went over the heads of a few commentators here... and I am sure you went over the head of the poster-who-should-not-be-named.

He/she/it will probably chime in any moment to support you...

csavel wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Someone83 wrote:

Does their JV also cover Caribean-US ops?

It should, as Guadeloupe and Martinique are as much part of France as Lyon or Nantes.

This is true *but* (there is always a but in life), I am under the impression that many if not all French overseas departments are not in the Schengen zone. For example, St. Pierre & Miquelon, as much a part of France as Guadeloupe or Paris, but travel between St. Pierre and Canada *for citizens of both places* is IIRC lax, needing only a drivers license, no passport required whereas citizens of anywhere else need passports (just like a French person going from Paris to Montreal needs to present a passport.) I think Réunion is similar.

Probably both derive from the need to have tight integration with their neighbors much closer to them (i.e. Canada and South Africa). This does mean that I believe, though I am not sure, that you do, in fact go through immigration check when going from overseas departments to mainland France and vice versa. Otherwise someone from an African country who might need a visa to go to France can go to Réunion with only a passport and then hop on a "domestic" flight to France. See link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area#Territories_of_Schengen_states_outside_the_Area

Furthermore some might be out of the Eurozone or EU in terms of some economic regulations - again so that they can integrate themselves easier with their neighbors. I am a bit fuzzier about that.

Why that long discourse? Because I can see those different visa rules making a JV between US and a French Overseas department different enough so that it is not covered in any JV. Not sure it is the case but it is not a certainty that it would be covered just because Guadeloupe and Martinique are "France."

The distinction to be made is thet Reunion, Guyane, Martinique, Guadeloupe, Mayotte and Saint-Martin (French) are part of the EU and are pretty much French regions (like US states) they are fully part of the EU minus Schengen area. Whilst places like French Polynesia, New Caledonia, Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon... are still EU citizens but are not part of the EU, some of them don't use the euro, don't have acces to the common market etc... they are overseas territories and thus are not as integrated to France as the Regions are.

csavel wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Someone83 wrote:

Does their JV also cover Caribean-US ops?

It should, as Guadeloupe and Martinique are as much part of France as Lyon or Nantes.

This is true *but* (there is always a but in life), I am under the impression that many if not all French overseas departments are not in the Schengen zone. For example, St. Pierre & Miquelon, as much a part of France as Guadeloupe or Paris, but travel between St. Pierre and Canada *for citizens of both places* is IIRC lax, needing only a drivers license, no passport required whereas citizens of anywhere else need passports (just like a French person going from Paris to Montreal needs to present a passport.) I think Réunion is similar.

Probably both derive from the need to have tight integration with their neighbors much closer to them (i.e. Canada and South Africa). This does mean that I believe, though I am not sure, that you do, in fact go through immigration check when going from overseas departments to mainland France and vice versa. Otherwise someone from an African country who might need a visa to go to France can go to Réunion with only a passport and then hop on a "domestic" flight to France. See link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area#Territories_of_Schengen_states_outside_the_Area

Furthermore some might be out of the Eurozone or EU in terms of some economic regulations - again so that they can integrate themselves easier with their neighbors. I am a bit fuzzier about that.

Why that long discourse? Because I can see those different visa rules making a JV between US and a French Overseas department different enough so that it is not covered in any JV. Not sure it is the case but it is not a certainty that it would be covered just because Guadeloupe and Martinique are "France."

A couple of comments:

1. Schengen has nothing to do with the topic being discussed. EU member states may or may not be part of the Schengen Treaty according to their national interest, etc. Example: Ireland is a full fledged EU member and is not part of Schengen, same as the UK. To complicate matters further, a state can also be part of Schengen and not part of the EU but of the EEZ - such is the case of Norway and Iceland.

2. Martinique and Guadeloupe are regions of France, albeit insular. Because of their location they do not form part of the Schengen zone. That said, from a political and administrative perspective, they are as French as any other region of France. Therefore, a JV should/could apply, as well as all air travel agreements of the EU.

3. Otherwise, on what grounds does a Norwegian airline fly from an insular region of France to the US, if it would not be taking advantage of the US- Europe open skies?

4. St Pierre and Miquelon are not regions of France, but a self governing overseas collectivity of France. A whole different administrative category, and not even part of the EU.

A couple of comments:

1. Schengen has nothing to do with the topic being discussed. EU member states may or may not be part of the Schengen Treaty according to their national interest, etc. Example: Ireland is a full fledged EU member and is not part of Schengen, same as the UK. To complicate matters further, a state can also be part of Schengen and not part of the EU but of the EEZ - such is the case of Norway and Iceland.

It does in as much that the fact that Martinique and Guadeloupe are NOT Schengen might have the suits running to their lawyers to make sure any JV agreement covers any possible extenuating circumcstances. That Schengen thing DOES mean flying from the US to Martinique isn't exactly like flying from the US to Lyon as a practical matter. How different? Dunno, not a lawyer, but I can imagine that it is possible that it does actually make a difference somewhere in the fine print.
[/quote]

alfa164 wrote:

ocracoke wrote:

Ggui9 wrote:

AF will launch flights from PTP (Guadeloupe) and FDF (Martinique) to Atlanta 2 times per week from December with an A320.
http://www.luchtzak.be/airlines/air-france/air-france-will-link-atlanta-french-antilles-december-2017/

Another dumb move by AF. ATL? Everyone and his/her emotional support lobster know that DTW would have been the better choice. AF would have made a bizillgillion dollars flying from DTW to the Caribbean, but like DL, they go ahead and try to stuff everything into ATL.
Oh well. Add AF to the no fly list.

I think you went over the heads of a few commentators here... and I am sure you went over the head of the poster-who-should-not-be-named.

He/she/it will probably chime in any moment to support you...

Definitely went over my head.