Thai looking to buy around 30 aircraft to modernise fleet

MrHMSH · Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:13 am

Looks like TG is on the lookout for some new aircraft, replacing the 772 and older A333s. They're talking with Airbus and Boeing. I think it could very easily be a split order.

And A.net goes into meltdown as they also announce the A380 is key to their future!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... older-jets

Speedbirdasia · Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:45 am

Glad to hear the 380 has its place in TG's future plans. Makes for a potential A380 Plus customer but it won't be easy deal with 777-9 just around the corner.

Slug71 · Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:46 am

My guess would be A359s and A380s.

deltal1011man · Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:50 am

MrHMSH wrote:
Looks like TG is on the lookout for some new aircraft, replacing the 772 and older A333s. They're talking with Airbus and Boeing. I think it could very easily be a split order.

And A.net goes into meltdown as they also announce the A380 is key to their future!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... older-jets

its in TG and MH's future because no one wants to pay for their fleets without those carriers taking a loss on the investment.

RL777 · Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:54 am

I too think it'll be a split order, the A359 fleet could be increased. TG seems quite pleased so far with their current frames. I think we will eventually see an A330NEO/787-10 decision be made, with the A380 evidently being part of their future I just don't see room for a 777-9 order.

Speedbirdasia · Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:57 am

deltal1011man wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
Looks like TG is on the lookout for some new aircraft, replacing the 772 and older A333s. They're talking with Airbus and Boeing. I think it could very easily be a split order.

And A.net goes into meltdown as they also announce the A380 is key to their future!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... older-jets

its in TG and MH's future because no one wants to pay for their fleets without those carriers taking a loss on the investment.

Anyone with an A380 fleet is looking at ways to optimize it. Luckily for Thai, they still have some trunk routes that can take it. Worth noting also, they were stuck with their premature retirement of the A340-500/600 fleets. One would wonder if they would be back on the negotiating table with Airbus as trade ins for new Equipment.

chiki · Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:01 am

i see the 777X to replace the 747 400

TC957 · Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:02 am

Fab news that they love the A380's - much I'm sure to the doom & gloom merchants on here when it comes to A380 matters. Hope they get a few more.....maybe get a couple of the MH birds as I'm sure MH won't need all 6 for their future plans with them.
TG's non-ER 772's and 773's lead a hard life on mostly short hops so whatever they order next has to be equally capable of 1hr sectors as 10+ hr ones. I think the A339 has a good shout here.

ericm2031 · Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:24 am

With only 2 787-9's coming, I can definitely see that fleet getting bigger.

And just curious, what are the 2 737-400's used for in their fleet?

MoKa777 · Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:00 am

Doesn't TG just buy 2-5 of everything... hahaha.

Jokes aside, I really hope they can go for the A339.

Someone83 · Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:05 am

MrHMSH wrote:
I think it could very easily be a split order.

Consider it is Thai Airways, anything else than a split order will be a surprise

seahawk · Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:18 am

777 + 787s - the perfect match.

MrHMSH · Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:23 am

seahawk wrote:
777 + 787s - the perfect match.

A350 and A330neo dream team!

na · Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:29 am

The 772s are already being replaced right now. Two went to the scrappers, the next two will follow in the next months, and so on. Its the A330s, 773s and 744s which are next. A mix of a few A380s and a larger number of A350s (-9 and -10) seems the most logical way to go.

seahawk · Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:32 am

MrHMSH wrote:
seahawk wrote:
777 + 787s - the perfect match.

A350 and A330neo dream team!

Not sure. The tender seems to be for a replacement of non-ER 777-200 and 777-300 as well as 747s.

The A350 has a bit too much range to replace the non-ERs (a 787-1000 seems to be closer) and lacks a bit in capacity to replace the 747s - there 777-9 fits perfectly.

Sure you could replace the 777-200 non-ER with A333NEO, the 777-300 non-ER with 777W and use the A350s on 777W routes, with the A350-1000 taking over 747 routes with a drop in capacity. Seems to me a bit too complicated. If the are 777-200ER also up for replacement the A350 looks more interesting though, but they are still quite young.

MrHMSH · Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:38 am

seahawk wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
seahawk wrote:
777 + 787s - the perfect match.

A350 and A330neo dream team!

Not sure. The tender seems to be for a replacement of non-ER 777-200 and 777-300 as well as 747s.

The A350 has a bit too much range to replace the non-ERs (a 787-1000 seems to be closer) and lacks a bit in capacity to replace the 747s - there 777-9 fits perfectly.

Sure you could replace the 777-200 non-ER with A333NEO, the 777-300 non-ER with 777W and use the A350s on 777W routes, with the A350-1000 taking over 747 routes with a drop in capacity. Seems to me a bit too complicated. If the are 777-200ER also up for replacement the A350 looks more interesting though, but they are still quite young.

TG use long haulers on short hops, no reason why they can't carry on doing that. I don't see why the Airbus combination would be any worse.

na wrote:
The 772s are already being replaced right now. Two went to the scrappers, the next two will follow in the next months, and so on. Its the A330s, 773s and 744s which are next. A mix of a few A380s and a larger number of A350s (-9 and -10) seems the most logical way to go.

The 2 777s that have gone to the scrapers are a few miles away from where I live in the Cotswolds.

seahawk · Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:49 am

Sure. Considering the current fleet, I think a split buy is likely anyway. Probably more A350 (-1000) and more 787 (-9).

EK413 · Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:51 am

Great to see the A380 remain the flagship at TG for at least another 10-15 years.

Afraid to say it but I'd put my money on TG order being split as politics will influence the decision as always.

EK413

MrHMSH · Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:10 am

EK413 wrote:
Great to see the A380 remain the flagship at TG for at least another 10-15 years.

Afraid to say it but I'd put my money on TG order being split as politics will influence the decision as always.

EK413

It doesn't have to be a bad thing, the madness has already been carried out, so they might as well reap the benefits of that, they can add any wide body into their fleet seamlessly, so they can tailor the aircraft to specific route needs.

skipness1E · Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:14 am

Anyone know where the A340s are currently stored? 6 A346s and 5 A345s just dumped in storage?

Speedbirdasia · Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:32 am

skipness1E wrote:
Anyone know where the A340s are currently stored? 6 A346s and 5 A345s just dumped in storage?

As far as I know, one A345 is flying for the Royal Thai Air Force part of their VIP transport fleet. Most of the others are stored in Bangkok's Don Muang's Airport.

Fiend · Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:08 am

Speedbirdasia wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Anyone know where the A340s are currently stored? 6 A346s and 5 A345s just dumped in storage?

As far as I know, one A345 is flying for the Royal Thai Air Force part of their VIP transport fleet. Most of the others are stored in Bangkok's Don Muang's Airport.

I believe some were flown down to U-Tapao airport, near Rayong, for storage as well.

dcaviation · Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:22 am

Those who follow that market probably read about it 2 weeks ago. The plan is the get 28 new planes over 5 years.
19 birds will go to Thai Airways and 9 to Thai Smile
Thai will retire 10 B747-400s, 7 777-300, 2 B737-400 and replace 9 of their Thai Smile A320 fleet with A320NEO.
Local news also indicated that Thai is talking with Boeing about wide body replacement.

Arq · Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:23 am

Fiend wrote:
Speedbirdasia wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Anyone know where the A340s are currently stored? 6 A346s and 5 A345s just dumped in storage?

As far as I know, one A345 is flying for the Royal Thai Air Force part of their VIP transport fleet. Most of the others are stored in Bangkok's Don Muang's Airport.

I believe some were flown down to U-Tapao airport, near Rayong, for storage as well.

All of the, except one being used by Royal Thai Airforce, are stored at U-Tapao.

dcaviation · Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:24 am

Arq wrote:
All of the, except one being used by Royal Thai Airforce, are stored at U-Tapao.

3 A340-500 are parked at Don Mueang.

Arq · Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:39 am

deltal1011man wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
Looks like TG is on the lookout for some new aircraft, replacing the 772 and older A333s. They're talking with Airbus and Boeing. I think it could very easily be a split order.

And A.net goes into meltdown as they also announce the A380 is key to their future!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... older-jets

its in TG and MH's future because no one wants to pay for their fleets without those carriers taking a loss on the investment.

We do take loss of investment if needed. Those A340s are stored, and A380 will meet the same fate if they do not generate profit. Fortunately we can still make profit at good load factor on London and Tokyo route at present. I guess they will be deployed to Sydney route after more 744 are retired, probably a daily flight each to ICN and Hong Kong on peak hour to maximize usage but that is all I can see possible. Not the most profitable aircraft, but still manageable thanks to its low CASM. So, they will remain but I am sure we shall not order more of them.

Aieron · Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:40 am

For regional widebody jets it will be either A339 & 787-10 , are planning to relaunch flights to the us? if so then would go for more A359 or 779.

EK413 · Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:44 am

MrHMSH wrote:
EK413 wrote:
Great to see the A380 remain the flagship at TG for at least another 10-15 years.

Afraid to say it but I'd put my money on TG order being split as politics will influence the decision as always.

EK413

It doesn't have to be a bad thing, the madness has already been carried out, so they might as well reap the benefits of that, they can add any wide body into their fleet seamlessly, so they can tailor the aircraft to specific route needs.

I haven't really looked at TGs numbers but surely they are doing better than MH financially. As for the fleet it's a real mess if you ask me, B734, A320, A330, B788, A350, A345 & A346 (both retired), B772, B773, B77W, B744, A380.

EK413

Arq · Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:46 am

dcaviation wrote:
Arq wrote:
All of the, except one being used by Royal Thai Airforce, are stored at U-Tapao.

3 A340-500 are parked at Don Mueang.

Just double check that... Sorry , my bad. All 345 are at DMK, while all 346 are at U-Tapao

Apology for wrong information

Speedbirdasia · Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:43 pm

Arq wrote:
dcaviation wrote:
Arq wrote:
All of the, except one being used by Royal Thai Airforce, are stored at U-Tapao.

3 A340-500 are parked at Don Mueang.

Just double check that... Sorry , my bad. All 345 are at DMK, while all 346 are at U-Tapao

Apology for wrong information

Thanks for the update.

TC957 · Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:55 pm

Perhaps TG will shock us all and get 748i's. I think the 779 will be available a long a time after TG want to retire their last 744.

juliuswong · Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:07 pm

Our guess would porbably narrow dowm to a few: A330neo, A350, B787 and B77X. Thai always split their order accordingly between both. It would be good if they can arm wrestle either one to take those A345/346 trade in for newer jet. At least better than sitting at Utapao/DMK doing nothing. I'm surprised they're still flying two B734, it is almost an extinct species in SEA. Quick easily all those smaller domestic or regional route will go to Thai Smile, leaving main trunk domestic and international route to TG.

Socrates17 · Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:32 pm

I write this as someone who loves the A380 and think's that it's gorgeous. But I see nothing in the linked article that suggests that Thai is looking to buy any additional A380 frames. In fact, his remark that they're very pleased with the ones they have contradicts his rather bizarre statement about 100% fleet replacement. Or did I misunderstand something? The sound isn't very clear and the text isn't necessarily accurate.

jrfspa320 · Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:38 pm

The 737-400s are used for flights to USM
A320s or 737-800 are not able to get in here

frigatebird · Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:56 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
seahawk wrote:
777 + 787s - the perfect match.

A350 and A330neo dream team!

With TG you can expect an order for all 4 types :rotfl:

Seriously, if it's about the non-ER 772 and 773 replacement I think a 787-9 / 787-10 order is a real possibility. With the 787 already in Thai's fleet, they do have a chance if the price is right.
Surely the A339 will be seriously considered, as TG is also a big A330 operator. But perhaps too small, I'm not sure.

The A350-1000 has the biggest chance of landing an order, could replace both 773 and 744.

But I wouldn't be surprised if TG does the less sensible thing and order the A330neo and 777X :stirthepot:

aemoreira1981 · Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:05 pm

Rationalizing the fleet around two models would make sense...I would say the 787-9 (replacing the 773 (non-ER) and the A333s), and the A35K to replace the 77W and 744. One could substitute the A339neo for the B789.

mig17 · Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:32 pm

Considering Thai Airways has 13 A350 on option and 10 more purchase rights, a version of the A350 is almost certain. Now for another type if there is one, it will be between the A330NEO and 787. Since they "loved" the A333 and now also have the 787 in their fleet, it can go both way.

AirbusA343 · Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:06 pm

My guess would be some A350s, a couple of extra 789s and 777-9s. Maybe A330neo but I don't think that chance is very high but who knows.

ernestxwb · Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:20 am

juliuswong wrote:
Our guess would porbably narrow dowm to a few: A330neo, A350, B787 and B77X. Thai always split their order accordingly between both. It would be good if they can arm wrestle either one to take those A345/346 trade in for newer jet. At least better than sitting at Utapao/DMK doing nothing. I'm surprised they're still flying two B734, it is almost an extinct species in SEA. Quick easily all those smaller domestic or regional route will go to Thai Smile, leaving main trunk domestic and international route to TG.

The 737-400s are needed for Koh Samui. The A320s are too large to operate and they don't want a small fleet of A319s or 737-700s

qfvhoqa · Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:30 am

ernestxwb wrote:
The 737-400s are needed for Koh Samui. The A320s are too large to operate and they don't want a small fleet of A319s or 737-700s

Thai recently started codesharing with Bangkok Airways, so it could be cheaper for Thai to just add a code to BKK-USM and ditch the 734s.

Arq wrote:
I guess they will be deployed to Sydney route after more 744 are retired

BKK-SYD is currently 11 weekly. It would probably offer more connection options if Thai downgauged and went double daily.

juliuswong · Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:57 am

qfvhoqa wrote:
ernestxwb wrote:
The 737-400s are needed for Koh Samui. The A320s are too large to operate and they don't want a small fleet of A319s or 737-700s

Thai recently started codesharing with Bangkok Airways, so it could be cheaper for Thai to just add a code to BKK-USM and ditch the 734s.

That is good to know. Were Bangkok Air and Thai in bad blood or something previously? If I'm not mistaken I read somewhere Bangkok Air has been reluctant to grant TG more daily flight due to monopoly. Correct me if I'm.wrong.

ZK-NBT · Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:28 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Rationalizing the fleet around two models would make sense...I would say the 787-9 (replacing the 773 (non-ER) and the A333s), and the A35K to replace the 77W and 744. One could substitute the A339neo for the B789.

Except the 77W's are near new and aren't going anywhere for a long time.

I wonder if they will get an actual regional bird to replace the 777A's? Or just misuse more long haul configured frames regionally?

A350-1000 could replace the 744's as could the 779, I feel the A350 could be favoured due timing here available now or soon if they order soon where the 779 is several years off, some 744's aren't that old yet 14-16 years so could fly another 7 or so years and be replaced by 779's.

They have only 2 789's coming so maybe some more of those aswell in the mix.

Arq · Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:30 am

juliuswong wrote:
qfvhoqa wrote:
ernestxwb wrote:
The 737-400s are needed for Koh Samui. The A320s are too large to operate and they don't want a small fleet of A319s or 737-700s

Thai recently started codesharing with Bangkok Airways, so it could be cheaper for Thai to just add a code to BKK-USM and ditch the 734s.

That is good to know. Were Bangkok Air and Thai in bad blood or something previously? If I'm not mistaken I read somewhere Bangkok Air has been reluctant to grant TG more daily flight due to monopoly. Correct me if I'm.wrong.

Bangkok Airways build both airport and Samui Tourism (3 or 4) decades ago. Right now Samui - Bangkok is the most profitable route for PG. Naturally they are quite reluctant to allow TG to gain more marketshare. Actually TG and PG are only two that truly, directly competing in Thailand aviation industry (as they are both premium carrier), so there are not too many cooperation between them. It's not really a dog fight or blood bath level of fighting, but no, they are not really friendly to each other.

Note - there is rumor that Samui airport runway will not be extended, just to make sure that the largest aircraft to land there is 319, in order to prevent other Thai carriers, including LCC to land there. I am not sure if this is correct or is it just space restriction. But Thai or Thai Smile is obviously not interested in something smaller than 320.

Arion640 · Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:00 am

MrHMSH wrote:
seahawk wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

A350 and A330neo dream team!

Not sure. The tender seems to be for a replacement of non-ER 777-200 and 777-300 as well as 747s.

The A350 has a bit too much range to replace the non-ERs (a 787-1000 seems to be closer) and lacks a bit in capacity to replace the 747s - there 777-9 fits perfectly.

Sure you could replace the 777-200 non-ER with A333NEO, the 777-300 non-ER with 777W and use the A350s on 777W routes, with the A350-1000 taking over 747 routes with a drop in capacity. Seems to me a bit too complicated. If the are 777-200ER also up for replacement the A350 looks more interesting though, but they are still quite young.

TG use long haulers on short hops, no reason why they can't carry on doing that. I don't see why the Airbus combination would be any worse.

na wrote:
The 772s are already being replaced right now. Two went to the scrappers, the next two will follow in the next months, and so on. Its the A330s, 773s and 744s which are next. A mix of a few A380s and a larger number of A350s (-9 and -10) seems the most logical way to go.

The 2 777s that have gone to the scrapers are a few miles away from where I live in the Cotswolds.

Yeah I seen a TG 777 at Kemble on my way up the Fosse, wasn't expecting to see it pop out from behind the trees along with the Saudi 744.

CptnAdam · Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:55 am

MrHMSH wrote:
seahawk wrote:
777 + 787s - the perfect match.

A350 and A330neo dream team!

If MH does order the a330neo. The dream team would be true!

EddieDude · Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:14 pm

qfvhoqa wrote:
BKK-SYD is currently 11 weekly. It would probably offer more connection options if Thai downgauged and went double daily.

I am not familiar with SYD. Isn't it a very congested airport with an inconvenient curfew? Would it be easy for TG (or anyone else for that matter) to get slots at desirable times at SYD?

irelayer · Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:50 pm

ericm2031 wrote:
With only 2 787-9's coming, I can definitely see that fleet getting bigger.

And just curious, what are the 2 737-400's used for in their fleet?

They seem to use them exclusively for Samui (USM) ops. Kind of strange because Bangkok Airways uses A319s.

-IR

aemoreira1981 · Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:49 pm

irelayer wrote:
ericm2031 wrote:
With only 2 787-9's coming, I can definitely see that fleet getting bigger.

And just curious, what are the 2 737-400's used for in their fleet?

They seem to use them exclusively for Samui (USM) ops. Kind of strange because Bangkok Airways uses A319s.

-IR

Can those airports use the Embraer 195-E2, which could replace the 734s? The issue here is that Bangkok Airways built that airport and would want to preserve its own property.

MooLor · Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:12 am

EddieDude wrote:
qfvhoqa wrote:
BKK-SYD is currently 11 weekly. It would probably offer more connection options if Thai downgauged and went double daily.

I am not familiar with SYD. Isn't it a very congested airport with an inconvenient curfew? Would it be easy for TG (or anyone else for that matter) to get slots at desirable times at SYD?

TG currently have a daily SYD morning peak arrival / mid morning departure, which is the only really congested time of the day. The 4 * weekly is a strange night arrival and afternoon departure. Whether this night arrival does the morning departure 4 days per week or sits on the ground for 18 hours on every visit, I don't know.

TG compete with an EK A380 BKK-SYD-BKK, recently upgauged from 77W. QF also have an inferior A330 product on the route. In the face of the EK competition I could see TG reducing SYD to daily and swapping in the A380 for the 744 currently used. They seem to want F into SYD, there must be a need / reason for that.

As to which aircraft TG will purchase ... mostly A350 in preference to 787 IMO. They see / present themselves as a premium airline - their 777 are still 9 abreast in Y and they have just been awarded Skytrax 'best economy cabin' - so I don't see the "more squeezy" 787 as a good fit for their long haul flying.

Having said that, they do use 787 to BNE & PER, so who knows.

AngMoh · Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:39 am

MooLor wrote:
EddieDude wrote:
qfvhoqa wrote:
BKK-SYD is currently 11 weekly. It would probably offer more connection options if Thai downgauged and went double daily.

I am not familiar with SYD. Isn't it a very congested airport with an inconvenient curfew? Would it be easy for TG (or anyone else for that matter) to get slots at desirable times at SYD?

TG currently have a daily SYD morning peak arrival / mid morning departure, which is the only really congested time of the day. The 4 * weekly is a strange night arrival and afternoon departure. Whether this night arrival does the morning departure 4 days per week or sits on the ground for 18 hours on every visit, I don't know.

TG compete with an EK A380 BKK-SYD-BKK, recently upgauged from 77W. QF also have an inferior A330 product on the route. In the face of the EK competition I could see TG reducing SYD to daily and swapping in the A380 for the 744 currently used. They seem to want F into SYD, there must be a need / reason for that.

As to which aircraft TG will purchase ... mostly A350 in preference to 787 IMO. They see / present themselves as a premium airline - their 777 are still 9 abreast in Y and they have just been awarded Skytrax 'best economy cabin' - so I don't see the "more squeezy" 787 as a good fit for their long haul flying.

Having said that, they do use 787 to BNE & PER, so who knows.

In TG, the 787 is regional config and the A350 is a long haul config. The trio of A380, 77W and A350 is reasonably consistent in hard product. The 744 is obsolete - I had a flight to LHR (after the A346 was parked) which was ok in J but Y looked terrible. Similar story for the long haul 77Es. Regional (and that includes Australia) it is a mess. If you get a long haul A380/77W/A350 deployed on regional flight it is good. Same if you are lucky to get the 787. But anything else and the product is sub-par.

It would make sense to add more A350s to make long haul consistent and 787 to make regional consistent.

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