Would Boeing be willing to hold slots for an MOU?

Alaska has a lot on it's plate right now, I could see them not wanting to fully commit to the future liability involved with going back to an all 737 mainline. With the backlog of 737 production, I could see them wanting to hold some spaces open for when the Airbus leases come due. Would Boeing be willing to reserve some slots now to make the eventual decision of a mixed fleet vs. 737s only easier?

NameOmitted wrote:

Would Boeing be willing to hold slots for an MOU?

Alaska has a lot on it's plate right now, I could see them not wanting to fully commit to the future liability involved with going back to an all 737 mainline. With the backlog of 737 production, I could see them wanting to hold some spaces open for when the Airbus leases come due. Would Boeing be willing to reserve some slots now to make the eventual decision of a mixed fleet vs. 737s only easier?

I'm sure slots are held in an MOU, for how long is a different matter. There probably is a time limitation and a first refusal-type provision (for example, X airline has an MOU with slots in 2020, Y airline wants to sign an order with deliveries in 2020 for the same slots, Boeing will say to X airline "firming? if not, another customer gets them").

NameOmitted wrote:

Would Boeing be willing to hold slots for an MOU?

MoU's include delivery positions. These delivery positions have "strike dates" (usually around 12-18 months prior to frame production start) whereas an airline needs to either commit to taking the position or releasing it. This gives Airbus and Boeing sufficient time to re-shop the slot if a customer chooses to not take the delivery position.

Why is it so hard for some to admit Boeing got it right regarding the 737MAX-10? Some have said the 737 was dead or should be out out to pasture, but airlines and leasing companies have shown their acceptance of this newest MAX model by the number of orders, be they new orders, conversions, mou's, etc. No conversions would have happened if the plane did not show value to the many buyers who signed on. The 737 although being old has enjoyed decades of success and Boeing seems to have made every new model of the 737 a plane in very much demand.

cheapgreek wrote:

Why is it so hard for some to admit Boeing got it right regarding the 737MAX-10? Some have said the 737 was dead or should be out out to pasture, but airlines and leasing companies have shown their acceptance of this newest MAX model by the number of orders, be they new orders, conversions, mou's, etc. No conversions would have happened if the plane did not show value to the many buyers who signed on. The 737 although being old has enjoyed decades of success and Boeing seems to have made every new model of the 737 a plane in very much demand.

In fairness, neither the 737-600 or regular 737-900 (non-ER) were in demand.

Well the 737-600 had no cost advantage and a distinct revenue disadvantage to the rest of the 737 family (as did the A318-100 to the rest of the A320 family). And the 737-900 offered no additional single-class capacity over the 737-800 so you only ordered it if you offered a 2+2 premium cabin and a 3+3 regular cabin and there are only a handful of airlines around the world who do that (though many of them did in fact order the 737-900 for that purpose).

Has the buyer been announced?

barney captain wrote:

Has the buyer been announced?

No.

V/F

Stitch wrote:

MoU's include delivery positions. These delivery positions have "strike dates" (usually around 12-18 months prior to frame production start) whereas an airline needs to either commit to taking the position or releasing it. This gives Airbus and Boeing sufficient time to re-shop the slot if a customer chooses to not take the delivery position.

I thought that was true for options, not MoUs.

Ruscoe wrote:

Who ever it is, my bet is that they have been sitting in the wings, and probably agreed already with Boeing to take 125 738MAX , once it was clear there would be that number available, after other airlines converted to the MAX 10.. They would get a good deal no doubt, and some early delivery slots. The timing at the end of the air show after other orders and commitments, were established, tells a lot.
My guess is Southwest.

Ruscoe

I agree with you that, whomever is ordering these new birds, has been waiting for a large block of MAX available, but I think they are destined to AS & I'll explain how I came to that conclusion.

I have a rather informal relationship with a long time friend (since high school) that works with AS in the tower, I can't divulge their position or I'd be letting the cat out of the bag & I'm not losing a 30 year friendship to gossip with strangers.

What I can say is, I pay attention. When it was final that AS was going to acquire VX, I asked them if the 320 would be of interest to AS? The answer was it was their understanding that AS has no intentions on keeping Airbus past the current lease terms & AS is all about the MAX line.

The 321's coming were already too close to arrival to defer or cancel.

I suspect AS will acquire enough 737MAX's to replace the 320 family as leases expire.

RWA380 wrote:

What I can say is, I pay attention. When it was final that AS was going to acquire VX, I asked them if the 320 would be of interest to AS? The answer was it was their understanding that AS has no intentions on keeping Airbus past the current lease terms & AS is all about the MAX line.

The 321's coming were already too close to arrival to defer or cancel.

I suspect AS will acquire enough 737MAX's to replace the 320 family as leases expire.

I suspect you are right, but 125 MAX seems an awful lot for AS, considering their fleet of NG's is pretty new and that current VX fleet is of 65 - according to Wikipedia (sounds about right, I guessed ~40).

I don't think anyone in AS had much idea what would happen to the Airbus fleet - it may be that when AS sees the numbers, especially of the 321NEO their fleet plans may change. I know AS is significantly smaller than AA, DL and UA, but they all operate combined 737/32x fleets, configuring them differently to maximise return.

BrianDromey wrote:

RWA380 wrote:

What I can say is, I pay attention. When it was final that AS was going to acquire VX, I asked them if the 320 would be of interest to AS? The answer was it was their understanding that AS has no intentions on keeping Airbus past the current lease terms & AS is all about the MAX line.

The 321's coming were already too close to arrival to defer or cancel.

I suspect AS will acquire enough 737MAX's to replace the 320 family as leases expire.

I suspect you are right, but 125 MAX seems an awful lot for AS, considering their fleet of NG's is pretty new and that current VX fleet is of 65 - according to Wikipedia (sounds about right, I guessed ~40).

I don't think anyone in AS had much idea what would happen to the Airbus fleet - it may be that when AS sees the numbers, especially of the 321NEO their fleet plans may change. I know AS is significantly smaller than AA, DL and UA, but they all operate combined 737/32x fleets, configuring them differently to maximise return.

You're correct, VX has exactly 65 current aircraft in their fleet, so that explains 65 aircraft of the 125. AS does plan on retiring their passenger 73G fleet, despite them having a couple of routes that work because of the size of the 737-700, SEA-CHS comes to mind, it's been said they were going, some converted to freighters & then the have been hanging onto them longer for a few routes that they work well on, but long term they're gone.

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Virgin-America

If indeed this order is to cover the 73G retirements, which according to AS fleet page there are 13 & the 734 retirements which is an additional 10 frames, that is a total of 88 replaced aircraft.

With the current direction AS wants to aggressively connect the dots on their map, 37 planes can be used up opening new routes & new markets. The MAX8 will give them some extra range out of LAX to Central America & open new opportunities. They want to be very aggressive.

Where should the 737-8 availability come from? Where did slots open up? Most of the 737MAX conversions to 737-10 will have kept their slots.

RWA380 wrote:

Ruscoe wrote:

Who ever it is, my bet is that they have been sitting in the wings, and probably agreed already with Boeing to take 125 738MAX , once it was clear there would be that number available, after other airlines converted to the MAX 10.. They would get a good deal no doubt, and some early delivery slots. The timing at the end of the air show after other orders and commitments, were established, tells a lot.
My guess is Southwest.

Ruscoe

I agree with you that, whomever is ordering these new birds, has been waiting for a large block of MAX available, but I think they are destined to AS & I'll explain how I came to that conclusion.

I have a rather informal relationship with a long time friend (since high school) that works with AS in the tower, I can't divulge their position or I'd be letting the cat out of the bag & I'm not losing a 30 year friendship to gossip with strangers.

What I can say is, I pay attention. When it was final that AS was going to acquire VX, I asked them if the 320 would be of interest to AS? The answer was it was their understanding that AS has no intentions on keeping Airbus past the current lease terms & AS is all about the MAX line.

The 321's coming were already too close to arrival to defer or cancel.

I suspect AS will acquire enough 737MAX's to replace the 320 family as leases expire.

This is Chinese. The size, the undisclosed nature and the report prior to Pair airshow that China is making a large purchase to appease Trump all point to them. China has been doing this kind of orders for many years.

IT is 9W.
In 2015 as well, they placed the order as an undisclosed customer, and went public after good Q3 2015 results.

https://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/201 ... om-boeing/

anshabhi wrote:

IT is 9W.
In 2015 as well, they placed the order as an undisclosed customer, and went public after good Q3 2015 results.

https://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/201 ... om-boeing/

Well i guess you're right , President Trump did mention about an order for about 100 aircraft from an indian airliner & this was said when he was holding a joint press conference with the indian p.m.

CAPA says order from Jet Airways "imminent".
https://centreforaviation.com/insights/ ... lem-352895
We are likely to soon know who's behind this order.

RWA380 wrote:

BrianDromey wrote:

RWA380 wrote:

What I can say is, I pay attention. When it was final that AS was going to acquire VX, I asked them if the 320 would be of interest to AS? The answer was it was their understanding that AS has no intentions on keeping Airbus past the current lease terms & AS is all about the MAX line.

The 321's coming were already too close to arrival to defer or cancel.

I suspect AS will acquire enough 737MAX's to replace the 320 family as leases expire.

I suspect you are right, but 125 MAX seems an awful lot for AS, considering their fleet of NG's is pretty new and that current VX fleet is of 65 - according to Wikipedia (sounds about right, I guessed ~40).

I don't think anyone in AS had much idea what would happen to the Airbus fleet - it may be that when AS sees the numbers, especially of the 321NEO their fleet plans may change. I know AS is significantly smaller than AA, DL and UA, but they all operate combined 737/32x fleets, configuring them differently to maximise return.

You're correct, VX has exactly 65 current aircraft in their fleet, so that explains 65 aircraft of the 125. AS does plan on retiring their passenger 73G fleet, despite them having a couple of routes that work because of the size of the 737-700, SEA-CHS comes to mind, it's been said they were going, some converted to freighters & then the have been hanging onto them longer for a few routes that they work well on, but long term they're gone.

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Virgin-America

If indeed this order is to cover the 73G retirements, which according to AS fleet page there are 13 & the 734 retirements which is an additional 10 frames, that is a total of 88 replaced aircraft.

With the current direction AS wants to aggressively connect the dots on their map, 37 planes can be used up opening new routes & new markets. The MAX8 will give them some extra range out of LAX to Central America & open new opportunities. They want to be very aggressive.

AS already has 20 MAX 8 and 17 MAX 9 on order. 74 planes is a lot of expansion. I think 9W is most likely.

If WSJ is right it is a 75 frames 737MAX order, 50 737MAX options and 25 cancellation of 737NG.

mjoelnir wrote:

If WSJ is right it is a 75 frames 737MAX order, 50 737MAX options and 25 cancellation of 737NG.

That WSJ article is 2 years old and is talking about the order Jet Airways firmed in November 2015.

The MOU is according to Boeing 125 planes + 50 options. While obviously the mix can change it sounds like for now that the purchaser is interested in a 125 firm order plus options not including options.

I'm going with Ryanair. 1. Boeing said "major airline." 2. MoL overtly said that the MAX8 is perfect for his operation. This is why Boeing said MAX8, not 125x of the Max family in general.

birdbrainz wrote:

I'm going with Ryanair. 1. Boeing said "major airline." 2. MoL overtly said that the MAX8 is perfect for his operation. This is why Boeing said MAX8, not 125x of the Max family in general.

Ryanair's case has been discussed several times in previous replies. They don't have any reason to stay unidentified.

anshabhi wrote:

birdbrainz wrote:

I'm going with Ryanair. 1. Boeing said "major airline." 2. MoL overtly said that the MAX8 is perfect for his operation. This is why Boeing said MAX8, not 125x of the Max family in general.

Ryanair's case has been discussed several times in previous replies. They don't have any reason to stay unidentified.

Besides, Ryanair ordered 10 737 MAX aircraft at the Paris air show.

Ryanair is now in discussions with Boeing over a potential order for the -10...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ce-438805/

I don't want to start a new thread about this, so I shall just ask my question here:

Has the Boeing 737 MAX program become a bigger success than all the prognosticators had presumed? It seems like an airframe so initially smeared (especially the MAX 10) is selling very well...perhaps not as well as the competition, but better than what was thought?

VC10er wrote:

I don't want to start a new thread about this, so I shall just ask my question here:

Has the Boeing 737 MAX program become a bigger success than all the prognosticators had presumed? It seems like an airframe so initially smeared (especially the MAX 10) is selling very well...perhaps not as well as the competition, but better than what was thought?

That really depends. Many of us had low expectations so it's not hard to exceed those. Other's probably called it right - a good airframe that will successfully play #2 in the market. Finally, there will always be the crowed that'll never be happy until a dagger is put through it's heart.

anshabhi wrote:

IT is 9W.
In 2015 as well, they placed the order as an undisclosed customer, and went public after good Q3 2015 results.

https://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/201 ... om-boeing/

9W isnt really a "major airline"

Antarius wrote:

anshabhi wrote:

IT is 9W.
In 2015 as well, they placed the order as an undisclosed customer, and went public after good Q3 2015 results.

https://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/201 ... om-boeing/

9W isnt really a "major airline"

Fleet size of 112 aircraft, 68 destinations and the 2nd largest airline in India doesn't make it a major airline? Also has 91 aircraft on order and it sounds like they want order much more.

ikolkyo wrote:

Antarius wrote:

anshabhi wrote:

IT is 9W.
In 2015 as well, they placed the order as an undisclosed customer, and went public after good Q3 2015 results.

https://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/201 ... om-boeing/

9W isnt really a "major airline"

Fleet size of 112 aircraft, 68 destinations and the 2nd largest airline in India doesn't make it a major airline? Also has 91 aircraft on order and it sounds like they want order much more.

Its not a small airline, but hardly major. Ethiopian has 90 something aircraft.. would you call it major?

Then again, could be market speak.

Antarius wrote:

ikolkyo wrote:

Antarius wrote:

9W isnt really a "major airline"

Fleet size of 112 aircraft, 68 destinations and the 2nd largest airline in India doesn't make it a major airline? Also has 91 aircraft on order and it sounds like they want order much more.

Its not a small airline, but hardly major. Ethiopian has 90 something aircraft.. would you call it major?

Then again, could be market speak.

Yes I would, especially for an African airline. They have over 100 destinations and even have cargo ops. They're the largest airline in Africa.

A source at AIX (Air India Express - their international LCC) had talked about a "HUGE" order being in the works with the plan being to extend flying beyond just India-Middle East to domestic routes to better compete with LCC's. Dismissed it as fantasy then.

But I wonder if....? AIX has all 737 fleet.

BawliBooch wrote:

A source at AIX (Air India Express - their international LCC) had talked about a "HUGE" order being in the works with the plan being to extend flying beyond just India-Middle East to domestic routes to better compete with LCC's. Dismissed it as fantasy then.

But I wonder if....? AIX has all 737 fleet.

"Dismissed it as fantasy then".
Repeat this.

VC10er wrote:

I don't want to start a new thread about this, so I shall just ask my question here:

Has the Boeing 737 MAX program become a bigger success than all the prognosticators had presumed? It seems like an airframe so initially smeared (especially the MAX 10) is selling very well...perhaps not as well as the competition, but better than what was thought?

What were your expectations? Taking it out of context of the market the current backlog of 3,699 737MAX is huge, whatever measurement you but to it. If you look at the competing airframe the A320neo family, the 737MAX is #2 more pronounced than in earlier times of the competition between 737 and A320, as the A320neo family has 5051 orders 31 of May 2017 not including June orders. The market split is near 42% to 58%.

anshabhi wrote:

"Dismissed it as fantasy then".
Repeat this.

Whats your point Abhi beta?

It did sound like fantasy in 2013. Still sounds like a very difficult dream for AIX to spread nationally.

But it is a possibility.

tphuang wrote:

RWA380 wrote:

Ruscoe wrote:

Who ever it is, my bet is that they have been sitting in the wings, and probably agreed already with Boeing to take 125 738MAX , once it was clear there would be that number available, after other airlines converted to the MAX 10.. They would get a good deal no doubt, and some early delivery slots. The timing at the end of the air show after other orders and commitments, were established, tells a lot.
My guess is Southwest.

Ruscoe

I agree with you that, whomever is ordering these new birds, has been waiting for a large block of MAX available, but I think they are destined to AS & I'll explain how I came to that conclusion.

I have a rather informal relationship with a long time friend (since high school) that works with AS in the tower, I can't divulge their position or I'd be letting the cat out of the bag & I'm not losing a 30 year friendship to gossip with strangers.

What I can say is, I pay attention. When it was final that AS was going to acquire VX, I asked them if the 320 would be of interest to AS? The answer was it was their understanding that AS has no intentions on keeping Airbus past the current lease terms & AS is all about the MAX line.

The 321's coming were already too close to arrival to defer or cancel.

I suspect AS will acquire enough 737MAX's to replace the 320 family as leases expire.

This is Chinese. The size, the undisclosed nature and the report prior to Pair airshow that China is making a large purchase to appease Trump all point to them. China has been doing this kind of orders for many years.

IT IS CZ. They've got the least aircraft on order. For a major carrier with 700+ fleet size, the 50-odd jets on order is just too few. If they continues NOT to place large orders but keep a slow trickle like they did with 4 A20Ns, 8 7M8s, 12 789s, not only CA MU but also HU will overtake them. It's the only place the 200-plus orders can go. Other carriers already have ordered as many as possible. CZ once had very rapid expasion back 10 yrs ago but they're slowing down now. However passenger flow in China kept growing and expanding CAN gives CZ a chance to grab up more gates and slots.

AirCal737 wrote:

tphuang wrote:

RWA380 wrote:

I agree with you that, whomever is ordering these new birds, has been waiting for a large block of MAX available, but I think they are destined to AS & I'll explain how I came to that conclusion.

I have a rather informal relationship with a long time friend (since high school) that works with AS in the tower, I can't divulge their position or I'd be letting the cat out of the bag & I'm not losing a 30 year friendship to gossip with strangers.

What I can say is, I pay attention. When it was final that AS was going to acquire VX, I asked them if the 320 would be of interest to AS? The answer was it was their understanding that AS has no intentions on keeping Airbus past the current lease terms & AS is all about the MAX line.

The 321's coming were already too close to arrival to defer or cancel.

I suspect AS will acquire enough 737MAX's to replace the 320 family as leases expire.

This is Chinese. The size, the undisclosed nature and the report prior to Pair airshow that China is making a large purchase to appease Trump all point to them. China has been doing this kind of orders for many years.

IT IS CZ. They've got the least aircraft on order. For a major carrier with 700+ fleet size, the 50-odd jets on order is just too few. If they continues NOT to place large orders but keep a slow trickle like they did with 4 A20Ns, 8 7M8s, 12 789s, not only CA MU but also HU will overtake them. It's the only place the 200-plus orders can go. Other carriers already have ordered as many as possible. CZ once had very rapid expasion back 10 yrs ago but they're slowing down now. However passenger flow in China kept growing and expanding CAN gives CZ a chance to grab up more gates and slots.

China Southern has something like ~150 A320/A320neo/737/737MAXs known on order, plus another 20 C919s. Not "50-odd" jets.

Polot wrote:

AirCal737 wrote:

tphuang wrote:

This is Chinese. The size, the undisclosed nature and the report prior to Pair airshow that China is making a large purchase to appease Trump all point to them. China has been doing this kind of orders for many years.

IT IS CZ. They've got the least aircraft on order. For a major carrier with 700+ fleet size, the 50-odd jets on order is just too few. If they continues NOT to place large orders but keep a slow trickle like they did with 4 A20Ns, 8 7M8s, 12 789s, not only CA MU but also HU will overtake them. It's the only place the 200-plus orders can go. Other carriers already have ordered as many as possible. CZ once had very rapid expasion back 10 yrs ago but they're slowing down now. However passenger flow in China kept growing and expanding CAN gives CZ a chance to grab up more gates and slots.

China Southern has something like ~150 A320/A320neo/737/737MAXs known on order, plus another 20 C919s. Not "50-odd" jets.

My guess is that it will be split up like all the other major deals China signs.

mjoelnir wrote:

VC10er wrote:

I don't want to start a new thread about this, so I shall just ask my question here:

Has the Boeing 737 MAX program become a bigger success than all the prognosticators had presumed? It seems like an airframe so initially smeared (especially the MAX 10) is selling very well...perhaps not as well as the competition, but better than what was thought?

What were your expectations? Taking it out of context of the market the current backlog of 3,699 737MAX is huge, whatever measurement you but to it. If you look at the competing airframe the A320neo family, the 737MAX is #2 more pronounced than in earlier times of the competition between 737 and A320, as the A320neo family has 5051 orders 31 of May 2017 not including June orders. The market split is near 42% to 58%.

Frankly, I personally don't know enough to have my own expectations! I realize something taken out of context doesn't mean much, but I have read SO MANY negative things about the 737 MAX that these orders seem to refute (at least to a degree). I figured it would be #2 against the A321neo, but nor did think the 737 MAX, especially the MAX 10 would sell as many numbers as it did. I was a bit surprised to see the UA conversion. So, with little context, has the MAX beaten expectations in terms of orders and be considered a success even if by a lower measure?

As Boeing does not specify how many of each version of the 737MAX are on order, but gives only the whole number, it is a game of guessing and following the announcements when orders are made. My guess about 737-9 orders before Paris was around 450. If we count all orders, conversions, LOIs and MOUs than there are now 361 737-10 on order. But there were 214 conversions, let us say 110 from them are 737-9. That would give us about 340 -9 and 361 -10, together about 700 -9 and -10. The A321neo stood at 1416 orders on the 31 of May and has added about 100 firm in June, some of that conversions from A320neo, and a few MOUs and LOIs. I would expect an exact number of A321neo on firm orders in the soon to come Airbus June spreadsheet.

mjoelnir wrote:

As Boeing does not specify how many of each version of the 737MAX are on order, but gives only the whole number, it is a game of guessing and following the announcements when orders are made. My guess about 737-9 orders before Paris was around 450. If we count all orders, conversions, LOIs and MOUs than there are now 361 737-10 on order. But there were 214 conversions, let us say 110 from them are 737-9. That would give us about 340 -9 and 361 -10, together about 700 -9 and -10. The A321neo stood at 1416 orders on the 31 of May and has added about 100 firm in June, some of that conversions from A320neo, and a few MOUs and LOIs. I would expect an exact number of A321neo on firm orders in the soon to come Airbus June spreadsheet.

Wait, so MOUs and LOIs count now?

jbs2886 wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

As Boeing does not specify how many of each version of the 737MAX are on order, but gives only the whole number, it is a game of guessing and following the announcements when orders are made. My guess about 737-9 orders before Paris was around 450. If we count all orders, conversions, LOIs and MOUs than there are now 361 737-10 on order. But there were 214 conversions, let us say 110 from them are 737-9. That would give us about 340 -9 and 361 -10, together about 700 -9 and -10. The A321neo stood at 1416 orders on the 31 of May and has added about 100 firm in June, some of that conversions from A320neo, and a few MOUs and LOIs. I would expect an exact number of A321neo on firm orders in the soon to come Airbus June spreadsheet.

Wait, so MOUs and LOIs count now?

I tried to be friendly to Boeing. So let us do it again, keeping MOUs, LOIs and unconfirmed conversions aside. 43 new firm orders + 125 firm conversions make 168 737-10 firm orders. Together with about 370 firm 737-9 left, gives us about 540 firm 737-9 and -10 compared to about 1.500 firm A321neo. Satisfied?

mjoelnir wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

As Boeing does not specify how many of each version of the 737MAX are on order, but gives only the whole number, it is a game of guessing and following the announcements when orders are made. My guess about 737-9 orders before Paris was around 450. If we count all orders, conversions, LOIs and MOUs than there are now 361 737-10 on order. But there were 214 conversions, let us say 110 from them are 737-9. That would give us about 340 -9 and 361 -10, together about 700 -9 and -10. The A321neo stood at 1416 orders on the 31 of May and has added about 100 firm in June, some of that conversions from A320neo, and a few MOUs and LOIs. I would expect an exact number of A321neo on firm orders in the soon to come Airbus June spreadsheet.

Wait, so MOUs and LOIs count now?

I tried to be friendly to Boeing. So let us do it again, keeping MOUs, LOIs and unconfirmed conversions aside. 43 new firm orders + 125 firm conversions make 168 737-10 firm orders. Together with about 370 firm 737-9 left, gives us about 540 firm 737-9 and -10 compared to about 1.500 firm A321neo. Satisfied[/quote]

----------------------------------------------------

It is interesting to see people's reaction to the launch of the 737-10. In the end, it is an inanimate object that will make a company money. For quite some time, Boeing had the only game in town, ala the 757. For a while now, the A321 has controlled its own destiny. The -10 won't destroy the 321 but the market has changed. Customers, whether current or new have supported the product in a very nice way. It should allow for Boeing to have some presence in a market it was not currently serving.

The preponderance of threads that had Boeing forced into bankruptcy and going out of business due to the A321 was quite interesting. Overall, Boeing as a company has a much larger footprint in the aerospace community and dwarfs Airbus.

Airbus has the A321, meanwhile their market share vs the F-15 and F/A-18 is dismal. Boeing just locked up long term deals for both lines in addition to continued support of the worldwide fleet of F-15s and F/A-18s already on bases from Australia, Finland to Florida U S of A. The F-15C alone just brought in $963.1 million for an upgrade program. Not bad for a model out of production since the late 80s. This occurs while the T-X competition gets ready to heat up with a Boeing jet having a 50/50 shot of wrapping up a the 300+ fleet market with Airbus no where to be seen.

The tanker "fleet" and I use that term loosely, is a sniffle when compared to the combined KC-135/10/46 fleet that Boeing manufactures or supports.

Let's not even compare the Apache vs the Tiger market or mention the fact that the CH-47 is FLOGGING anything in its arena. We could get into the B-1 and B-52 support programs but I digress. Is there any answer to the P-8 program (737) and the massive defense contracts it continues to gobble up?

So yes, Boeing was caught behind in a sector of the commercial market. Airbus put forth a good product and garnered a ton of A321 orders. Boeing has now just begun their response in earnest. In fact, they had to play catchup to the entire NEO family. They have done a commendable job in doing so, all while churning out more Boeing commercial jets than Airbus can match for the past 6 year string.

That I believe has the boys in Seattle not crying in their beers on Friday nights.

Who the hell do you think you are CX747? Spreading financial realities into a aviation enthusiast website!

mffoda wrote:

:spin: Who the hell do you think you are CX747? Spreading financial realities into a aviation enthusiast website!

Hes not an armchair CEO or a 13 year old website fanboy.

Boeing is a juggernaut compared to airbus, as CX said. They thought about their choices long and hard, and they probably knew/wanted them to take the reigns a bit. let them play in the water, so to speak.

RWA380 wrote:

BrianDromey wrote:

RWA380 wrote:

What I can say is, I pay attention. When it was final that AS was going to acquire VX, I asked them if the 320 would be of interest to AS? The answer was it was their understanding that AS has no intentions on keeping Airbus past the current lease terms & AS is all about the MAX line.

The 321's coming were already too close to arrival to defer or cancel.

I suspect AS will acquire enough 737MAX's to replace the 320 family as leases expire.

I suspect you are right, but 125 MAX seems an awful lot for AS, considering their fleet of NG's is pretty new and that current VX fleet is of 65 - according to Wikipedia (sounds about right, I guessed ~40).

I don't think anyone in AS had much idea what would happen to the Airbus fleet - it may be that when AS sees the numbers, especially of the 321NEO their fleet plans may change. I know AS is significantly smaller than AA, DL and UA, but they all operate combined 737/32x fleets, configuring them differently to maximise return.

You're correct, VX has exactly 65 current aircraft in their fleet, so that explains 65 aircraft of the 125. AS does plan on retiring their passenger 73G fleet, despite them having a couple of routes that work because of the size of the 737-700, SEA-CHS comes to mind, it's been said they were going, some converted to freighters & then the have been hanging onto them longer for a few routes that they work well on, but long term they're gone.

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Virgin-America

If indeed this order is to cover the 73G retirements, which according to AS fleet page there are 13 & the 734 retirements which is an additional 10 frames, that is a total of 88 replaced aircraft.

With the current direction AS wants to aggressively connect the dots on their map, 37 planes can be used up opening new routes & new markets. The MAX8 will give them some extra range out of LAX to Central America & open new opportunities. They want to be very aggressive.

i don't think as would want 37 8s for expansion I'm sure they'd want more 9s or 10s

BawliBooch wrote:

A source at AIX (Air India Express - their international LCC) had talked about a "HUGE" order being in the works with the plan being to extend flying beyond just India-Middle East to domestic routes to better compete with LCC's. Dismissed it as fantasy then.

But I wonder if....? AIX has all 737 fleet.

AIX would continue to lease in small batches of 737 but in no way they are going to purchase 100+ boeing 737's , they will continue to expand their operations but not in a big way.

CX747 wrote:

It is interesting to see people's reaction to the launch of the 737-10. In the end, it is an inanimate object that will make a company money. For quite some time, Boeing had the only game in town, ala the 757. For a while now, the A321 has controlled its own destiny. The -10 won't destroy the 321 but the market has changed. Customers, whether current or new have supported the product in a very nice way. It should allow for Boeing to have some presence in a market it was not currently serving.

The preponderance of threads that had Boeing forced into bankruptcy and going out of business due to the A321 was quite interesting. Overall, Boeing as a company has a much larger footprint in the aerospace community and dwarfs Airbus.

Airbus has the A321, meanwhile their market share vs the F-15 and F/A-18 is dismal. Boeing just locked up long term deals for both lines in addition to continued support of the worldwide fleet of F-15s and F/A-18s already on bases from Australia, Finland to Florida U S of A. The F-15C alone just brought in $963.1 million for an upgrade program. Not bad for a model out of production since the late 80s. This occurs while the T-X competition gets ready to heat up with a Boeing jet having a 50/50 shot of wrapping up a the 300+ fleet market with Airbus no where to be seen.

The tanker "fleet" and I use that term loosely, is a sniffle when compared to the combined KC-135/10/46 fleet that Boeing manufactures or supports.

Let's not even compare the Apache vs the Tiger market or mention the fact that the CH-47 is FLOGGING anything in its arena. We could get into the B-1 and B-52 support programs but I digress. Is there any answer to the P-8 program (737) and the massive defense contracts it continues to gobble up?

So yes, Boeing was caught behind in a sector of the commercial market. Airbus put forth a good product and garnered a ton of A321 orders. Boeing has now just begun their response in earnest. In fact, they had to play catchup to the entire NEO family. They have done a commendable job in doing so, all while churning out more Boeing commercial jets than Airbus can match for the past 6 year string.

That I believe has the boys in Seattle not crying in their beers on Friday nights.

Just to be sure, you are talking about the company that is pushing an undeclared 27 billion USD loss down the years, to keep up declared good profits the last ten years? You can talk about the military part all the day you want, but the commercial side, and there the 737 has been the program to bring in the cash, for, for example the up to now loss making 787 program and the up to now loss making KC46 tanker program (because the development cost are fixed and overruns have to be payed by Boeing).
The 737MAX program will of course make heaps of money for Boeing, but they also need that.

mjoelnir wrote:

CX747 wrote:

It is interesting to see people's reaction to the launch of the 737-10. In the end, it is an inanimate object that will make a company money. For quite some time, Boeing had the only game in town, ala the 757. For a while now, the A321 has controlled its own destiny. The -10 won't destroy the 321 but the market has changed. Customers, whether current or new have supported the product in a very nice way. It should allow for Boeing to have some presence in a market it was not currently serving.

The preponderance of threads that had Boeing forced into bankruptcy and going out of business due to the A321 was quite interesting. Overall, Boeing as a company has a much larger footprint in the aerospace community and dwarfs Airbus.

Airbus has the A321, meanwhile their market share vs the F-15 and F/A-18 is dismal. Boeing just locked up long term deals for both lines in addition to continued support of the worldwide fleet of F-15s and F/A-18s already on bases from Australia, Finland to Florida U S of A. The F-15C alone just brought in $963.1 million for an upgrade program. Not bad for a model out of production since the late 80s. This occurs while the T-X competition gets ready to heat up with a Boeing jet having a 50/50 shot of wrapping up a the 300+ fleet market with Airbus no where to be seen.

The tanker "fleet" and I use that term loosely, is a sniffle when compared to the combined KC-135/10/46 fleet that Boeing manufactures or supports.

Let's not even compare the Apache vs the Tiger market or mention the fact that the CH-47 is FLOGGING anything in its arena. We could get into the B-1 and B-52 support programs but I digress. Is there any answer to the P-8 program (737) and the massive defense contracts it continues to gobble up?

So yes, Boeing was caught behind in a sector of the commercial market. Airbus put forth a good product and garnered a ton of A321 orders. Boeing has now just begun their response in earnest. In fact, they had to play catchup to the entire NEO family. They have done a commendable job in doing so, all while churning out more Boeing commercial jets than Airbus can match for the past 6 year string.

That I believe has the boys in Seattle not crying in their beers on Friday nights.

Just to be sure, you are talking about the company that is pushing an undeclared 27 billion USD loss down the years, to keep up declared good profits the last ten years? You can talk about the military part all the day you want, but the commercial side, and there the 737 has been the program to bring in the cash, for, for example the up to now loss making 787 program and the up to now loss making KC46 tanker program (because the development cost are fixed and overruns have to be payed by Boeing).
The 737MAX program will of course make heaps of money for Boeing, but they also need that.

Yet again another airliners.net statement about Boeing's potential financial demise. Wall Street isn't screaming about Boeing's financials and the US Government doesn't have the IRS looking into questionable reporting or practices. The company is just fine. If there are any eyebrows being raised it is at Airbus whose year so far is lackluster with a very unlikely hometown showing in Paris where they got smacked around.

The 737MAX program is going to make a ton of cash for Boeing and up to now has been running smoothly and has brought jets to their customers in a timely fashion.

The KC-46 program will make money for Boeing in the long run. Look at the KC-135's lifespan. Yes, there are issues but the sky is not falling. In fact the USAF just order an additional block.

Yes, I can talk about the military side all day long because that is reality. Where is the Airbus product in the US Army's FVL program? That program has the potential to replace UH-60s, CH-47s and AH-64s.
That might be a big market....and Boeing-Sikorsky is a leading contender. Eurofighter production is drawing to a close while the F-15 and F/A-18 lines are strong for several years. Where would Airbus turn? The majority of Europe has chosen the F-35 and Airbus is asking Germany and Spain to give it money so it can build a fighter for them!

In reality Boeing and Airbus are very different. Boeing is a massive player in all of the Aerospace industry while Airbus is a large player in the commercial aviation sector with a sprinkling of other offerings.

The A321 is a small portion of just one market. I could counter with the fact that the 777 killed the A340, has put the A380 on it's knees and is setup to do battle with a THIRD Airbus type in the A350. 1 Boeing plane, on 1 production line killing two competitors products and forcing the development and expenditure of resources in the A350. That is rarely discussed here.

RWA380 wrote:

Ruscoe wrote:

Who ever it is, my bet is that they have been sitting in the wings, and probably agreed already with Boeing to take 125 738MAX , once it was clear there would be that number available, after other airlines converted to the MAX 10.. They would get a good deal no doubt, and some early delivery slots. The timing at the end of the air show after other orders and commitments, were established, tells a lot.
My guess is Southwest.

Ruscoe

I agree with you that, whomever is ordering these new birds, has been waiting for a large block of MAX available, but I think they are destined to AS & I'll explain how I came to that conclusion.

I have a rather informal relationship with a long time friend (since high school) that works with AS in the tower, I can't divulge their position or I'd be letting the cat out of the bag & I'm not losing a 30 year friendship to gossip with strangers.

What I can say is, I pay attention. When it was final that AS was going to acquire VX, I asked them if the 320 would be of interest to AS? The answer was it was their understanding that AS has no intentions on keeping Airbus past the current lease terms & AS is all about the MAX line.

The 321's coming were already too close to arrival to defer or cancel.

I suspect AS will acquire enough 737MAX's to replace the 320 family as leases expire.

I doubt they ordered 125 of them since there aren't 125 Airbus in the VX fleet.

KarelXWB wrote:

Probably another Chinese customer.

CASC just placed an order for 100 A320neos as part of a larger order including A350s, so I think this hints strongly that this is also a CASC order as Boeing lists them as UFOs until CASG assigns them to specific Chinese carriers and the Chinese tend to order from both OEMs close together.