DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

KarelXWB · Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:04 pm

DHL places 4 additional A330-300 P2F orders, plus 10 options.

Order comes on top of an earlier order signed in 2016.

Global logistics specialist DHL Express has ordered an additional four firm and ten optional A330-300P2F (passenger-to-freighter) conversions from Elbe Flugzeugwerke (EFW).

The agreement, which was announced during the ongoing 2017 Paris Airshow, follows on from another DHL contract for four A330-300P2F conversions, awarded in July last year. The first aircraft under the launch contract is currently undergoing conversion at EFW's Dresden facilities, and is on track to be redelivered by the end of 2017.

Article
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... 30-300p2fs

TheGeordielad · Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:08 pm

Great but it's about time the a330 p2f will delivered by end of year.

BOEING777EK · Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:45 pm

Any news of what airframes DHL will pick for their rest of their a330 conversion there are a couple of Ex Thai A330s that DHL can take which are Pratt & Whitney powered and some are 22 years old youngest 18 years old also there are two Ex OHY A330s that dhl can take which is about 22 years old and Pratt & Whitney powered and theres also 2 Ex IFLY airframes that dhl can take which is 22 years old and again Pratt & Whitney powered

codc10 · Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:53 pm

It would seem that AA has a few (9) candidates for P2F conversion leaving the fleet in the next few years...

lightsaber · Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:26 pm

Considering the A330NEO delays, I'm sure the terms were excellent. I wonder if there are any puts (reverse options) l?

TriniA340 · Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:36 am

This would be DHL in Europe or in the US? Wondering what region these birds will be used in..

Revelation · Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:45 am

Nice order for Airbus and DHL, congrats!

juliuswong · Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:48 am

BOEING777EK wrote:
Any news of what airframes DHL will pick for their rest of their a330 conversion there are a couple of Ex Thai A330s that DHL can take which are Pratt & Whitney powered and some are 22 years old youngest 18 years old also there are two Ex OHY A330s that dhl can take which is about 22 years old and Pratt & Whitney powered and theres also 2 Ex IFLY airframes that dhl can take which is 22 years old and again Pratt & Whitney powered

There are many ex-TAM machines sitting around, PW powered too. Turkish Airlines currently are offloading some ex-TAM machines too. I think they are good candidates. Also, ex-RJ and Arik Air. But the latter two frames are pretty young.

leleko747 · Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:28 am

Just wondering:

DHL and Egypt Air Cargo (am I right?) are the only customers of the A330-300P2F?
What is the reason to go for a new program (the first conversion of an A330 from pax to cargo) instead of opting for a brand new 777F or A330-200F?

I suppose DHL is not short on cash, couldn't they order some Boeing 777F or get a few under a lease agreement?

leyland1989 · Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:52 am

leleko747 wrote:
Just wondering:

DHL and Egypt Air Cargo (am I right?) are the only customers of the A330-300P2F?
What is the reason to go for a new program (the first conversion of an A330 from pax to cargo) instead of opting for a brand new 777F or A330-200F?

I suppose DHL is not short on cash, couldn't they order some Boeing 777F or get a few under a lease agreement?

A lot of A330 should be coming off pax service in the next 5-10 years.

I assume the cost of purchasing/operating P2F would become more attractive in the future.

seahawk · Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:07 am

leleko747 wrote:
Just wondering:

DHL and Egypt Air Cargo (am I right?) are the only customers of the A330-300P2F?
What is the reason to go for a new program (the first conversion of an A330 from pax to cargo) instead of opting for a brand new 777F or A330-200F?

I suppose DHL is not short on cash, couldn't they order some Boeing 777F or get a few under a lease agreement?

Utilisation rates. A new plane is too expensive to stand around all day, a old A330 is much better suited for maybe flying just 10 hours each day, due to the much lower purchases costs - even with conversion.

BOEING777EK · Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:24 am

juliuswong wrote:
BOEING777EK wrote:
Any news of what airframes DHL will pick for their rest of their a330 conversion there are a couple of Ex Thai A330s that DHL can take which are Pratt & Whitney powered and some are 22 years old youngest 18 years old also there are two Ex OHY A330s that dhl can take which is about 22 years old and Pratt & Whitney powered and theres also 2 Ex IFLY airframes that dhl can take which is 22 years old and again Pratt & Whitney powered

There are many ex-TAM machines sitting around, PW powered too. Turkish Airlines currently are offloading some ex-TAM machines too. I think they are good candidates. Also, ex-RJ and Arik Air. But the latter two frames are pretty young.

Since they are ordering the A330-300s it will be unlikely that DHL will take Ex Tam Ex RJ and Ex Turkish airlines as they are A330-200s and some airframes are too young to go to a P2F conversion

BoeingVista · Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:26 am

Does the P2F conversion include the freighter nose gear mod to give her a level floor?

BOEING777EK · Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:32 am

leleko747 wrote:
Just wondering:

DHL and Egypt Air Cargo (am I right?) are the only customers of the A330-300P2F?
What is the reason to go for a new program (the first conversion of an A330 from pax to cargo) instead of opting for a brand new 777F or A330-200F?

I suppose DHL is not short on cash, couldn't they order some Boeing 777F or get a few under a lease agreement?

Firstly buying a new freighter plane from scratch is pretty expensive Secondly converting passenger planes into freighters is still reliable as a new cargo plane fresh from the factory why order a brand new A330-200F for millions of dollars when there is an A330-200P2F cargo conversion program going on. Its way more cheaper to get a used A330 then convert it to a freighter the only disadvantage is the poor fuel efficiency.

cougar15 · Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:35 am

TriniA340 wrote:
This would be DHL in Europe or in the US? Wondering what region these birds will be used in..

They will be used on the European air network, doing multi sectors routings into the hub at night & back out in the morning. In saying that, it also explain why no new planes are required. These birds do a few hours each evening into the hub and the outbound in the morning. they are parked for the day, so no sence or need in getting new or expensive metal.

cougar15 · Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:36 am

BoeingVista wrote:
Does the P2F conversion include the freighter nose gear mod to give her a level floor?

no, it is not required, they will use a powered system to move the ULDs within the A/C.

KarelXWB · Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:55 am

leleko747 wrote:
Just wondering:

DHL and Egypt Air Cargo (am I right?) are the only customers of the A330-300P2F?

EgyptAir is the customer for the A330-200P2F.

B777LRF · Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:01 am

TriniA340 wrote:
This would be DHL in Europe or in the US? Wondering what region these birds will be used in..

Order was placed by DHL Global Aviation, and as such the aircraft could be allocated to any of their airlines around the world. Since DHL does not wholly own an airline in the US, chances are probably slim they'll be placed there. But in the hands of e.g. EAT or DHL Air UK, it is certainly possible they could be deployed on TATL services. On the other hand, they could be placed with SNAS in BAH and operate ME-EU / ME-Asia / ME-Africa.

mjoelnir · Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:01 am

There is one difference between the A330-300P2F and a A330-200F, Volume. The A330-200F moves more metric tons and the A330-300P2F moves more volume. I assume DHL is going for freight volume over tonnage. I imagine that Airbus does not see the sales numbers to invest in a new A330-300F.

blueflyer · Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:57 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Order was placed by DHL Global Aviation, and as such the aircraft could be allocated to any of their airlines around the world. Since DHL does not wholly own an airline in the US, chances are probably slim they'll be placed there.

I do think they'll be placed in TATL service but DHL would have no problem having an unrelated third-party operates its aircraft. DHL already owns or leases several aircraft placed with operators in the US on a CMI basis.

BOEING777EK · Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:16 pm

Whats the current status of the first a330-300 p2f conversion plane?

KarelXWB · Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:18 pm

BOEING777EK wrote:
Whats the current status of the first a330-300 p2f conversion plane?

It undergoes conversion and should be ready by years end.

readytotaxi · Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:26 pm

A ball park figure of a conversion cost please?

BOEING777EK · Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:29 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
BOEING777EK wrote:
Whats the current status of the first a330-300 p2f conversion plane?

It undergoes conversion and should be ready by years end.

Did ST Aerospace start conversion on MSN 127 as expected

juliuswong · Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:01 pm

BOEING777EK wrote:
leleko747 wrote:
Just wondering:

DHL and Egypt Air Cargo (am I right?) are the only customers of the A330-300P2F?
What is the reason to go for a new program (the first conversion of an A330 from pax to cargo) instead of opting for a brand new 777F or A330-200F?

I suppose DHL is not short on cash, couldn't they order some Boeing 777F or get a few under a lease agreement?
Firstly buying a new freighter plane from scratch is pretty expensive Secondly converting passenger planes into freighters is still reliable as a new cargo plane fresh from the factory why order a brand new A330-200F for millions of dollars when there is an A330-200P2F cargo conversion program going on. Its way more cheaper to get a used A330 then convert it to a freighter the only disadvantage is the poor fuel efficiency.

Thank you BOEING777EK for the correction. I have conveniently forgotten DHL is going for -300 not -200. In that case, there aren't many to go around currently, unless someone retires them in big amount. The closest I can think of is American Airlines A330-300, all nine frames being offloaded next year. Those ex-Thai are running out of cycle due to heavy domestic usage, I don't think they're any good for conversion. Most first gen MH machines have been scrapped too.

jbs2886 · Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:11 pm

juliuswong wrote:
BOEING777EK wrote:
leleko747 wrote:
Just wondering:

DHL and Egypt Air Cargo (am I right?) are the only customers of the A330-300P2F?
What is the reason to go for a new program (the first conversion of an A330 from pax to cargo) instead of opting for a brand new 777F or A330-200F?

I suppose DHL is not short on cash, couldn't they order some Boeing 777F or get a few under a lease agreement?
Firstly buying a new freighter plane from scratch is pretty expensive Secondly converting passenger planes into freighters is still reliable as a new cargo plane fresh from the factory why order a brand new A330-200F for millions of dollars when there is an A330-200P2F cargo conversion program going on. Its way more cheaper to get a used A330 then convert it to a freighter the only disadvantage is the poor fuel efficiency.

Thank you BOEING777EK for the correction. I have conveniently forgotten DHL is going for -300 not -200. In that case, there aren't many to go around currently, unless someone retires them in big amount. The closest I can think of is American Airlines A330-300, all nine frames being offloaded next year. Those ex-Thai are running out of cycle due to heavy domestic usage, I don't think they're any good for conversion. Most first gen MH machines have been scrapped too.

Generally, how old can an aircraft be for P2F conversions? There are a lot of aircraft coming available, but they may be too old?

Stitch · Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:16 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Generally, how old can an aircraft be for P2F conversions? There are a lot of aircraft coming available, but they may be too old?

Condition and number of cycles are a bigger factor than age when determining candidates for conversion. A 20 year old frame with 10,000 cycles that spent a majority of it's time in a dry climate would be a much better prospect for conversion than a 10-year old frame with 30,000 cycles on it operated in humid conditions near a saltwater environment.

On the flip side, it also depends on how much work the conversion entails. If you're going to have to strip the frame to the ribs for conversion, then condition and cycles matter less since you'll be able to replace any corroded or fatigued sections. So at that point, purchase price probably plays a larger role since the conversion cost will be high.

jbs2886 · Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:31 pm

Stitch wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Generally, how old can an aircraft be for P2F conversions? There are a lot of aircraft coming available, but they may be too old?

Condition and number of cycles are a bigger factor than age when determining candidates for conversion. A 20 year old frame with 10,000 cycles that spent a majority of it's time in a dry climate would be a much better prospect for conversion than a 10-year old frame with 30,000 cycles on it operated in humid conditions near a saltwater environment.

On the flip side, it also depends on how much work the conversion entails. If you're going to have to strip the frame to the ribs for conversion, then condition and cycles matter less since you'll be able to replace any corroded or fatigued sections. So at that point, purchase price probably plays a larger role since the conversion cost will be high.

Makes sense - so of some of the proposed frames: AA (avg 17 years), TAM and Turkish / ex-TAM. Are any of those? I imagine while US airlines get a lot of air time out of frames, they probably have less cycles doing long haul than say an Asian airline using it intra-Asia.

mjoelnir · Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:54 pm

I assume engine type will play a role. The MSN127 being converted is from February 1996..

leleko747 · Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:00 pm

Thank you for those who answered my question. Always nice to learn new stuff!

BOEING777EK · Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:17 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
BOEING777EK wrote:
Firstly buying a new freighter plane from scratch is pretty expensive Secondly converting passenger planes into freighters is still reliable as a new cargo plane fresh from the factory why order a brand new A330-200F for millions of dollars when there is an A330-200P2F cargo conversion program going on. Its way more cheaper to get a used A330 then convert it to a freighter the only disadvantage is the poor fuel efficiency.

Thank you BOEING777EK for the correction. I have conveniently forgotten DHL is going for -300 not -200. In that case, there aren't many to go around currently, unless someone retires them in big amount. The closest I can think of is American Airlines A330-300, all nine frames being offloaded next year. Those ex-Thai are running out of cycle due to heavy domestic usage, I don't think they're any good for conversion. Most first gen MH machines have been scrapped too.

Generally, how old can an aircraft be for P2F conversions? There are a lot of aircraft coming available, but they may be too old?

there is really no age to convert a passenger plane into a freighter if you have an airline or enough cash

without that said it depends on the number of cycles the plane used or has until it runs out of cycles and unfortunately be scrapped so there is no age really depending on the conditions of the aircraft the most common age i see when a passenger plane is converted from a passenger to freighter is around 17-22 years the oldest I've seen is 29 years it really depends on the cycles the plane has used.

BOEING777EK · Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:20 pm

leleko747 wrote:
Thank you for those who answered my question. Always nice to learn new stuff!

Thats what the internet is

BOEING777EK · Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:25 pm

Does anyone know if MSN96 A330-300 EI-FSP will end up with DHL and be converted to be a freighter?

VSMUT · Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:36 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Generally, how old can an aircraft be for P2F conversions? There are a lot of aircraft coming available, but they may be too old?

It is entirely a question of economics. The conversion costs X, and the plane has so and so long left, and the operator expects to utilize it to a certain amount. So a very old frame with little time left could be perfectly valid for an operator that only flies it twice per day at no more than 1 hour at a time.

I know that some ca 30 year old ATRs and 737-300/400s are being converted right now.

BOEING777EK · Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:23 pm

This is a bit off-topic but i was wondering that is it possible to add mode cycles on a airframe so it can last longer?

BOEING777EK · Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:22 pm

The next A330-300P2F for DHL Air will be MSN 50 Ex. Thai Airways HS-TEA This airframe is currently stored at UTP since 6th May 2015 after conversion registration will become D-AAEC

After HS-TEA the next conversion will be MSN 346 Ex. Thai Airways HS-TEM This airframe is also stored at UTP since 6th May 2015 after conversion registration will become D-AAED

juliuswong · Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:53 pm

BOEING777EK wrote:
The next A330-300P2F for DHL Air will be MSN 50 Ex. Thai Airways HS-TEA This airframe is currently stored at UTP since 6th May 2015 after conversion registration will become D-AAEC

After HS-TEA the next conversion will be MSN 346 Ex. Thai Airways HS-TEM This airframe is also stored at UTP since 6th May 2015 after conversion registration will become D-AAED

Great information! Thank you for the update BOEING777EK. Those ex-TG older frames must have quite a number cycles left, I'm surprised to be honest DHL are taking them. Pretty excited to see those old girls flying again.

cougar15 · Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:13 pm

BOEING777EK wrote:
The next A330-300P2F for DHL Air will be MSN 50 Ex. Thai Airways HS-TEA This airframe is currently stored at UTP since 6th May 2015 after conversion registration will become D-AAEC

After HS-TEA the next conversion will be MSN 346 Ex. Thai Airways HS-TEM This airframe is also stored at UTP since 6th May 2015 after conversion registration will become D-AAED

......which basically answers the many question above in regards to where they will be operated. Europe only, sorry for all the guys on the other side of the pond, but you won´t see it there..,...

Spacepope · Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:31 pm

BOEING777EK wrote:
This is a bit off-topic but i was wondering that is it possible to add mode cycles on a airframe so it can last longer?

You can almost always add more life if money is no object, but the checks and costs increase as the cycles and hours go up.

BOEING777EK · Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:00 pm

the next two A330-300(P2F) for DHL is cn 50 Ex. Thai Airways HS-TEA and cn 346 Ex. Thai HS-TEM i know i mentioned about these two airframes earlier on but since PlanespottersNET has updated the DHL EAT Leipzig fleet i just wanted you guys to know that these airframes are definitely heading for conversion for DHL

TriniA340 · Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:37 am

Thanks B777LRF & cougar 15! I guess I will just continue to see 762Fs for the near future...lol
Very promising though, that A330s are getting a 2nd lease on life. The market will hopefully pick up pace soon....

BOEING777EK · Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:16 pm

The first A330-300P2F CN116 D-AAEA Ex. 9M-MKI to be converted from passenger to freighter has rolled out from the hanger and transferred to another hanger conversion still in progress http://www.skybird-ev.de/p2f/2017/daaea2.jpg

behramjee · Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:21 pm

Oh I didnt know that the A333 was also now part of the P2F program which I'm really happy it is now !

How many tons can the A333F uplift? As the B77F does 101T and MD11F has 80.

BOEING777EK · Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:24 pm

The first A330-200P2F for Egyptair cargo has also rolled out of the hanger and transferred to another hanger conversion still in progress http://www.skybird-ev.de/p2f/2017/sugce1.jpg

ap305 · Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:24 pm

behramjee wrote:
Oh I didnt know that the A333 was also now part of the P2F program which I'm really happy it is now !

How many tons can the A333F uplift? As the B77F does 101T and MD11F has 80.

You can find the relevant data for the a33p2f here

http://www.elbeflugzeugwerke.com/filead ... 2F_web.pdf

behramjee · Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:43 pm

Thanks I went through it and the data shows that the A333P2F carries 61T only versus the A332P2F carrying 60T. Only a difference of one ton more for the A333? I would have expected at least 5 tons minimum.

Bluebird191 · Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:47 pm

ap305 wrote:
behramjee wrote:
Oh I didnt know that the A333 was also now part of the P2F program which I'm really happy it is now !

How many tons can the A333F uplift? As the B77F does 101T and MD11F has 80.

You can find the relevant data for the a33p2f here

http://www.elbeflugzeugwerke.com/filead ... 2F_web.pdf

With the A333 P2F being able to uplift just 1 tonne more than the A332 P2F, what is the use of it? Unless mail/courier carriers like DHL want the extra volume over the lack of extra weight uplift - the internal volume is the only thing I can think of that would be of benefit to airlines.

Stitch · Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:11 pm

Bluebird191 wrote:
With the A333 P2F being able to uplift just 1 tonne more than the A332 P2F, what is the use of it?

The A330-300P2F offers around 20% more usable volume so if your cargo density is lower, you can load more.

BOEING777EK · Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:12 pm

Bluebird191 wrote:
ap305 wrote:
behramjee wrote:
Oh I didnt know that the A333 was also now part of the P2F program which I'm really happy it is now !

How many tons can the A333F uplift? As the B77F does 101T and MD11F has 80.

You can find the relevant data for the a33p2f here

http://www.elbeflugzeugwerke.com/filead ... 2F_web.pdf

With the A333 P2F being able to uplift just 1 tonne more than the A332 P2F, what is the use of it? Unless mail/courier carriers like DHL want the extra volume over the lack of extra weight uplift - the internal volume is the only thing I can think of that would be of benefit to airlines.

That öne extra ton for the A333 "P2F" is suited for more of a Short haul flight rather then a long range flight that one less ton for the A332 "P2F" is morely suited for a longer dıstance flight time.
BOEING777EK

MajMattMason · Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:42 pm

These A333 P2F's acquisitions, are they to replace or augment the existing fleet? If replace, I assume it's going to be for the A300's?
Anyone know what the fate of the B757 fleet is??

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