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KarelXWB
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DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:04 pm

DHL places 4 additional A330-300 P2F orders, plus 10 options.

Order comes on top of an earlier order signed in 2016.

Global logistics specialist DHL Express has ordered an additional four firm and ten optional A330-300P2F (passenger-to-freighter) conversions from Elbe Flugzeugwerke (EFW).

The agreement, which was announced during the ongoing 2017 Paris Airshow, follows on from another DHL contract for four A330-300P2F conversions, awarded in July last year. The first aircraft under the launch contract is currently undergoing conversion at EFW's Dresden facilities, and is on track to be redelivered by the end of 2017.


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https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... 30-300p2fs
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TheGeordielad
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:08 pm

Great but it's about time the a330 p2f will delivered by end of year.
 
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:45 pm

Any news of what airframes DHL will pick for their rest of their a330 conversion there are a couple of Ex Thai A330s that DHL can take which are Pratt & Whitney powered and some are 22 years old youngest 18 years old also there are two Ex OHY A330s that dhl can take which is about 22 years old and Pratt & Whitney powered and theres also 2 Ex IFLY airframes that dhl can take which is 22 years old and again Pratt & Whitney powered
 
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:53 pm

It would seem that AA has a few (9) candidates for P2F conversion leaving the fleet in the next few years...
 
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:26 pm

Considering the A330NEO delays, I'm sure the terms were excellent. I wonder if there are any puts (reverse options) l?
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TriniA340
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:36 am

This would be DHL in Europe or in the US? Wondering what region these birds will be used in..
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:45 am

Nice order for Airbus and DHL, congrats!
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:48 am

BOEING777EK wrote:
Any news of what airframes DHL will pick for their rest of their a330 conversion there are a couple of Ex Thai A330s that DHL can take which are Pratt & Whitney powered and some are 22 years old youngest 18 years old also there are two Ex OHY A330s that dhl can take which is about 22 years old and Pratt & Whitney powered and theres also 2 Ex IFLY airframes that dhl can take which is 22 years old and again Pratt & Whitney powered

There are many ex-TAM machines sitting around, PW powered too. Turkish Airlines currently are offloading some ex-TAM machines too. I think they are good candidates. Also, ex-RJ and Arik Air. But the latter two frames are pretty young.
 
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leleko747
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:28 am

Just wondering:

DHL and Egypt Air Cargo (am I right?) are the only customers of the A330-300P2F?
What is the reason to go for a new program (the first conversion of an A330 from pax to cargo) instead of opting for a brand new 777F or A330-200F?

I suppose DHL is not short on cash, couldn't they order some Boeing 777F or get a few under a lease agreement?
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:52 am

leleko747 wrote:
Just wondering:

DHL and Egypt Air Cargo (am I right?) are the only customers of the A330-300P2F?
What is the reason to go for a new program (the first conversion of an A330 from pax to cargo) instead of opting for a brand new 777F or A330-200F?

I suppose DHL is not short on cash, couldn't they order some Boeing 777F or get a few under a lease agreement?

A lot of A330 should be coming off pax service in the next 5-10 years.

I assume the cost of purchasing/operating P2F would become more attractive in the future.
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:07 am

leleko747 wrote:
Just wondering:

DHL and Egypt Air Cargo (am I right?) are the only customers of the A330-300P2F?
What is the reason to go for a new program (the first conversion of an A330 from pax to cargo) instead of opting for a brand new 777F or A330-200F?

I suppose DHL is not short on cash, couldn't they order some Boeing 777F or get a few under a lease agreement?


Utilisation rates. A new plane is too expensive to stand around all day, a old A330 is much better suited for maybe flying just 10 hours each day, due to the much lower purchases costs - even with conversion.
 
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:24 am

juliuswong wrote:
BOEING777EK wrote:
Any news of what airframes DHL will pick for their rest of their a330 conversion there are a couple of Ex Thai A330s that DHL can take which are Pratt & Whitney powered and some are 22 years old youngest 18 years old also there are two Ex OHY A330s that dhl can take which is about 22 years old and Pratt & Whitney powered and theres also 2 Ex IFLY airframes that dhl can take which is 22 years old and again Pratt & Whitney powered

There are many ex-TAM machines sitting around, PW powered too. Turkish Airlines currently are offloading some ex-TAM machines too. I think they are good candidates. Also, ex-RJ and Arik Air. But the latter two frames are pretty young.
Since they are ordering the A330-300s it will be unlikely that DHL will take Ex Tam Ex RJ and Ex Turkish airlines as they are A330-200s and some airframes are too young to go to a P2F conversion
 
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:26 am

Does the P2F conversion include the freighter nose gear mod to give her a level floor?
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BOEING777EK
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:32 am

leleko747 wrote:
Just wondering:

DHL and Egypt Air Cargo (am I right?) are the only customers of the A330-300P2F?
What is the reason to go for a new program (the first conversion of an A330 from pax to cargo) instead of opting for a brand new 777F or A330-200F?

I suppose DHL is not short on cash, couldn't they order some Boeing 777F or get a few under a lease agreement?
Firstly buying a new freighter plane from scratch is pretty expensive Secondly converting passenger planes into freighters is still reliable as a new cargo plane fresh from the factory why order a brand new A330-200F for millions of dollars when there is an A330-200P2F cargo conversion program going on. Its way more cheaper to get a used A330 then convert it to a freighter the only disadvantage is the poor fuel efficiency.
 
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:35 am

TriniA340 wrote:
This would be DHL in Europe or in the US? Wondering what region these birds will be used in..


They will be used on the European air network, doing multi sectors routings into the hub at night & back out in the morning. In saying that, it also explain why no new planes are required. These birds do a few hours each evening into the hub and the outbound in the morning. they are parked for the day, so no sence or need in getting new or expensive metal.
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:36 am

BoeingVista wrote:
Does the P2F conversion include the freighter nose gear mod to give her a level floor?


no, it is not required, they will use a powered system to move the ULDs within the A/C.
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:55 am

leleko747 wrote:
Just wondering:

DHL and Egypt Air Cargo (am I right?) are the only customers of the A330-300P2F?


EgyptAir is the customer for the A330-200P2F.
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:01 am

TriniA340 wrote:
This would be DHL in Europe or in the US? Wondering what region these birds will be used in..


Order was placed by DHL Global Aviation, and as such the aircraft could be allocated to any of their airlines around the world. Since DHL does not wholly own an airline in the US, chances are probably slim they'll be placed there. But in the hands of e.g. EAT or DHL Air UK, it is certainly possible they could be deployed on TATL services. On the other hand, they could be placed with SNAS in BAH and operate ME-EU / ME-Asia / ME-Africa.
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:01 am

There is one difference between the A330-300P2F and a A330-200F, Volume. The A330-200F moves more metric tons and the A330-300P2F moves more volume. I assume DHL is going for freight volume over tonnage. I imagine that Airbus does not see the sales numbers to invest in a new A330-300F.
 
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:57 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Order was placed by DHL Global Aviation, and as such the aircraft could be allocated to any of their airlines around the world. Since DHL does not wholly own an airline in the US, chances are probably slim they'll be placed there.

I do think they'll be placed in TATL service but DHL would have no problem having an unrelated third-party operates its aircraft. DHL already owns or leases several aircraft placed with operators in the US on a CMI basis.
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:16 pm

Whats the current status of the first a330-300 p2f conversion plane?
 
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:18 pm

BOEING777EK wrote:
Whats the current status of the first a330-300 p2f conversion plane?


It undergoes conversion and should be ready by years end.

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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:26 pm

A ball park figure of a conversion cost please?
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:29 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
BOEING777EK wrote:
Whats the current status of the first a330-300 p2f conversion plane?


It undergoes conversion and should be ready by years end.

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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:01 pm

BOEING777EK wrote:
leleko747 wrote:
Just wondering:

DHL and Egypt Air Cargo (am I right?) are the only customers of the A330-300P2F?
What is the reason to go for a new program (the first conversion of an A330 from pax to cargo) instead of opting for a brand new 777F or A330-200F?

I suppose DHL is not short on cash, couldn't they order some Boeing 777F or get a few under a lease agreement?
Firstly buying a new freighter plane from scratch is pretty expensive Secondly converting passenger planes into freighters is still reliable as a new cargo plane fresh from the factory why order a brand new A330-200F for millions of dollars when there is an A330-200P2F cargo conversion program going on. Its way more cheaper to get a used A330 then convert it to a freighter the only disadvantage is the poor fuel efficiency.

Thank you BOEING777EK for the correction. I have conveniently forgotten DHL is going for -300 not -200. In that case, there aren't many to go around currently, unless someone retires them in big amount. The closest I can think of is American Airlines A330-300, all nine frames being offloaded next year. Those ex-Thai are running out of cycle due to heavy domestic usage, I don't think they're any good for conversion. Most first gen MH machines have been scrapped too.
 
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:11 pm

juliuswong wrote:
BOEING777EK wrote:
leleko747 wrote:
Just wondering:

DHL and Egypt Air Cargo (am I right?) are the only customers of the A330-300P2F?
What is the reason to go for a new program (the first conversion of an A330 from pax to cargo) instead of opting for a brand new 777F or A330-200F?

I suppose DHL is not short on cash, couldn't they order some Boeing 777F or get a few under a lease agreement?
Firstly buying a new freighter plane from scratch is pretty expensive Secondly converting passenger planes into freighters is still reliable as a new cargo plane fresh from the factory why order a brand new A330-200F for millions of dollars when there is an A330-200P2F cargo conversion program going on. Its way more cheaper to get a used A330 then convert it to a freighter the only disadvantage is the poor fuel efficiency.

Thank you BOEING777EK for the correction. I have conveniently forgotten DHL is going for -300 not -200. In that case, there aren't many to go around currently, unless someone retires them in big amount. The closest I can think of is American Airlines A330-300, all nine frames being offloaded next year. Those ex-Thai are running out of cycle due to heavy domestic usage, I don't think they're any good for conversion. Most first gen MH machines have been scrapped too.


Generally, how old can an aircraft be for P2F conversions? There are a lot of aircraft coming available, but they may be too old?
 
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:16 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Generally, how old can an aircraft be for P2F conversions? There are a lot of aircraft coming available, but they may be too old?


Condition and number of cycles are a bigger factor than age when determining candidates for conversion. A 20 year old frame with 10,000 cycles that spent a majority of it's time in a dry climate would be a much better prospect for conversion than a 10-year old frame with 30,000 cycles on it operated in humid conditions near a saltwater environment.

On the flip side, it also depends on how much work the conversion entails. If you're going to have to strip the frame to the ribs for conversion, then condition and cycles matter less since you'll be able to replace any corroded or fatigued sections. So at that point, purchase price probably plays a larger role since the conversion cost will be high.
 
jbs2886
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:31 pm

Stitch wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Generally, how old can an aircraft be for P2F conversions? There are a lot of aircraft coming available, but they may be too old?


Condition and number of cycles are a bigger factor than age when determining candidates for conversion. A 20 year old frame with 10,000 cycles that spent a majority of it's time in a dry climate would be a much better prospect for conversion than a 10-year old frame with 30,000 cycles on it operated in humid conditions near a saltwater environment.

On the flip side, it also depends on how much work the conversion entails. If you're going to have to strip the frame to the ribs for conversion, then condition and cycles matter less since you'll be able to replace any corroded or fatigued sections. So at that point, purchase price probably plays a larger role since the conversion cost will be high.


Makes sense - so of some of the proposed frames: AA (avg 17 years), TAM and Turkish / ex-TAM. Are any of those? I imagine while US airlines get a lot of air time out of frames, they probably have less cycles doing long haul than say an Asian airline using it intra-Asia.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:54 pm

I assume engine type will play a role. The MSN127 being converted is from February 1996..
 
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leleko747
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:00 pm

Thank you for those who answered my question. Always nice to learn new stuff! :)
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BOEING777EK
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:17 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
BOEING777EK wrote:
Firstly buying a new freighter plane from scratch is pretty expensive Secondly converting passenger planes into freighters is still reliable as a new cargo plane fresh from the factory why order a brand new A330-200F for millions of dollars when there is an A330-200P2F cargo conversion program going on. Its way more cheaper to get a used A330 then convert it to a freighter the only disadvantage is the poor fuel efficiency.

Thank you BOEING777EK for the correction. I have conveniently forgotten DHL is going for -300 not -200. In that case, there aren't many to go around currently, unless someone retires them in big amount. The closest I can think of is American Airlines A330-300, all nine frames being offloaded next year. Those ex-Thai are running out of cycle due to heavy domestic usage, I don't think they're any good for conversion. Most first gen MH machines have been scrapped too.


Generally, how old can an aircraft be for P2F conversions? There are a lot of aircraft coming available, but they may be too old?
there is really no age to convert a passenger plane into a freighter if you have an airline or enough cash :D without that said it depends on the number of cycles the plane used or has until it runs out of cycles and unfortunately be scrapped so there is no age really depending on the conditions of the aircraft the most common age i see when a passenger plane is converted from a passenger to freighter is around 17-22 years the oldest I've seen is 29 years it really depends on the cycles the plane has used.
Last edited by BOEING777EK on Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:20 pm

leleko747 wrote:
Thank you for those who answered my question. Always nice to learn new stuff! :)
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:25 pm

Does anyone know if MSN96 A330-300 EI-FSP will end up with DHL and be converted to be a freighter?
 
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Re: DHL orders additional A330-300 P2F

Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:36 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Generally, how old can an aircraft be for P2F conversions? There are a lot of aircraft coming available, but they may be too old?


It is entirely a question of economics. The conversion costs X, and the plane has so and so long left, and the operator expects to utilize it to a certain amount. So a very old frame with little time left could be perfectly valid for an operator that only flies it twice per day at no more than 1 hour at a time.

I know that some ca 30 year old ATRs and 737-300/400s are being converted right now.

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