EMB170
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:40 pm

Pacific wrote:
VCEflyboy wrote:
Does the a350 have the legs to fly JFK east Asia?

It sure does. Spec range is 15,000km so it's a 16-hour aircraft at the very least.


CX is replacing the daily 777 with an A350 on EWR-HKG soon...
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:52 pm

xdlx wrote:
ASQ400 wrote:
VCEflyboy wrote:
Does the a350 have the legs to fly JFK east Asia?

Yeah. It has some of the longest legs in the industry.
It could even do JFK-AKL

JFK-AKL .... Really! with a load of cotton I assume. And CERTAINLY not AKL-JFK

Other way around.

AKL-JFK is exactly 50nm longer than SIN-LAX, so the eastbound should be doable with a very lite load.
The southwest bound JFK-AKL would definitely need a stop, no matter what you're carrying, if using the standard A359.

The A359ULR could do both ways nonstop, but again with a heavily reduced load... as it generally just trades payload for extra fuel weight.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
winginit
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:06 pm

rbavfan wrote:
VCEflyboy wrote:
Does the a350 have the legs to fly JFK east Asia?


yes. Delta spec says 8000 statute miles. Seems conservative vs Airbus specs.


I'm a bit confused, because DL have also publicly said during an earnings call that the DL A350 would be unable to serve LAXSYD, which stands at 7471. While I'm not sure how much credibility I should put into it, the Aviator Joe aircraft comparison tool pegs the 359 at 7749.
 
dmorbust
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:29 pm

winginit wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
VCEflyboy wrote:
Does the a350 have the legs to fly JFK east Asia?


yes. Delta spec says 8000 statute miles. Seems conservative vs Airbus specs.


I'm a bit confused, because DL have also publicly said during an earnings call that the DL A350 would be unable to serve LAXSYD, which stands at 7471. While I'm not sure how much credibility I should put into it, the Aviator Joe aircraft comparison tool pegs the 359 at 7749.


Please tell me which earnings call that was or link to the correct earnings call transcript. I have listened to each of the last dozens of DL earnings calls and cannot remember a DL exec ever saying the A350 would be unable to serve LAX-SYD.
 
winginit
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:33 pm

dmorbust wrote:
winginit wrote:
rbavfan wrote:

yes. Delta spec says 8000 statute miles. Seems conservative vs Airbus specs.


I'm a bit confused, because DL have also publicly said during an earnings call that the DL A350 would be unable to serve LAXSYD, which stands at 7471. While I'm not sure how much credibility I should put into it, the Aviator Joe aircraft comparison tool pegs the 359 at 7749.


Please tell me which earnings call that was or link to the correct earnings call transcript. I have listened to each of the last dozens of DL earnings calls and cannot remember a DL exec ever saying the A350 would be unable to serve LAX-SYD.


I'll see if I can't dig it up. I'm quite certain they've specifically said their 359 didn't have the legs for LAXSYD.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:33 pm

winginit wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
VCEflyboy wrote:
Does the a350 have the legs to fly JFK east Asia?


yes. Delta spec says 8000 statute miles. Seems conservative vs Airbus specs.


I'm a bit confused, because DL have also publicly said during an earnings call that the DL A350 would be unable to serve LAXSYD, which stands at 7471. While I'm not sure how much credibility I should put into it, the Aviator Joe aircraft comparison tool pegs the 359 at 7749.


This seems to have become an A.net fact, but the A350 can definitely do LAX-SYD, it flies and will fly on much longer routes. The statement may relate to the fact that the 77L is better for the route as it carries more payload, but not being the best choice for DL on a specific route is quite different from not being able to do it at all.
 
winginit
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:34 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
winginit wrote:
rbavfan wrote:

yes. Delta spec says 8000 statute miles. Seems conservative vs Airbus specs.


I'm a bit confused, because DL have also publicly said during an earnings call that the DL A350 would be unable to serve LAXSYD, which stands at 7471. While I'm not sure how much credibility I should put into it, the Aviator Joe aircraft comparison tool pegs the 359 at 7749.


This seems to have become an A.net fact, but the A350 can definitely do LAX-SYD, it flies and will fly on much longer routes. The statement may relate to the fact that the 77L is better for the route as it carries more payload, but not being the best choice for DL on a specific route is quite different from not being able to do it at all.


Referring to the DL spec in particular. Not the frame under a different config.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:52 pm

winginit wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
winginit wrote:

I'm a bit confused, because DL have also publicly said during an earnings call that the DL A350 would be unable to serve LAXSYD, which stands at 7471. While I'm not sure how much credibility I should put into it, the Aviator Joe aircraft comparison tool pegs the 359 at 7749.


This seems to have become an A.net fact, but the A350 can definitely do LAX-SYD, it flies and will fly on much longer routes. The statement may relate to the fact that the 77L is better for the route as it carries more payload, but not being the best choice for DL on a specific route is quite different from not being able to do it at all.


Referring to the DL spec in particular. Not the frame under a different config.


What's the MTOW of SQ's A359 compared to DL's?

Your source doesn't really refute the point, 7749nm seems like it would be enough to fly the 6507nm to SYD, with payload restrictions but not a deal-breaker. The 77L will be around for a while at DL, but if push came to shove they could still fly the A350 to LAX, and I'm quite confident it would make them money. I'm not sure how accurate that source is though, it seems like its estimate for the 787-9 and 787-10 are quite optimistic.
 
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Polot
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:09 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
I'm not sure how accurate that source is though, it seems like its estimate for the 787-9 and 787-10 are quite optimistic.

It is using now very old data ripped probably from Wikipedia. The 787-9/-10 ranges and seating configurations match Boeing's old numbers before they revised their standard seating and weight assumptions 2 years ago (no actual changes to the aircraft).
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:12 pm

Polot wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
I'm not sure how accurate that source is though, it seems like its estimate for the 787-9 and 787-10 are quite optimistic.

It is using now very old data ripped probably from Wikipedia. The 787-9/-10 ranges and seating configurations match Boeing's old numbers before they revised their standard seating and weight assumptions 2 years ago (no actual changes to the aircraft).


Even Wikipedia seems to have gone for a more reliable source: Boeing's website itself.
 
ap305
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:15 pm

Here we go again.... a350 275t with a reasonably heavy and dense three class config- 136t oew, 30t for pax plus bags, 5t for catering, 6t fuel reserves leaves 98t for trip fuel. At 5.9t/hour gives approx 16.6hrs in the air which at 501kts ground speed (mach.85 at 30k ft) gives a very rough still air distance of 8300nm..... There will be airlines with heavier configs and more conservative mission rules but there is no way that an a359 will not do lax-syd-lax with 290-310 passengers and a reasonably heavy lift in the belly. even the 268t variant will do it easily. However there may be other reasons that Delta may not want to use it on the route- performance is not the likely issue.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:46 pm

hz747300 wrote:
I did meet some Delta people at one of the bars in Wan Chai experiencing the local culture. They were ramp people, flew to HKG on staff travel, and having the night of their lives.


Ahh, Wan Chai. About 15 years ago when I was a ramper we had a few nights in TYO, then HKG where we also hit Wan Chai (after Lan Kwai Fong). We actually found a bar called "The 24 hour bar". Then we headed on to Koh Phagnan for the Full Moon Party, then SIN, then home. Got J or F the whole way. The life and times of an NRSA.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
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b777900
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:22 pm

Polot wrote:
A350 wrote:
Cool. I would have expected them to use it on a shorter route for the first weeks until the crew is more familiar with it and the second frame has arrived.

They will. This is DL first "regular" A350 route.

Using the term flight in the title is a little misleading. This is the first route, not flight (which will probably be something like DTW-ATL).

ATL to DTW since the ship 3501 is in ATL waiting inspection from delta before flying to DTW TO START flying to NRT. IS that correct ?
Flight Attendants prepare the cabin for Departure....
 
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b777900
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:24 pm

EMB170 wrote:
Pacific wrote:
VCEflyboy wrote:
Does the a350 have the legs to fly JFK east Asia?

It sure does. Spec range is 15,000km so it's a 16-hour aircraft at the very least.


CX is replacing the daily 777 with an A350 on EWR-HKG soon...

Cant wait for that what about BOS or JFK to HKG..
Flight Attendants prepare the cabin for Departure....
 
dmorbust
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:53 pm

winginit wrote:
dmorbust wrote:
winginit wrote:

I'm a bit confused, because DL have also publicly said during an earnings call that the DL A350 would be unable to serve LAXSYD, which stands at 7471. While I'm not sure how much credibility I should put into it, the Aviator Joe aircraft comparison tool pegs the 359 at 7749.


Please tell me which earnings call that was or link to the correct earnings call transcript. I have listened to each of the last dozens of DL earnings calls and cannot remember a DL exec ever saying the A350 would be unable to serve LAX-SYD.


I'll see if I can't dig it up. I'm quite certain they've specifically said their 359 didn't have the legs for LAXSYD.


I'm quite certain a DL exec has never said that on an earnings call, or even in any recorded media occurrence anywhere for that matter. Not that I personally care one way or another, but this rumor has been propagated far too long on A.net so it is about time someone comes up with a citation/proof...
 
atl100million
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:22 pm

ATL-ICN could easily be blocked for 15.5 hours in the winter. That is well within the block time it would take to fly to Australia.

DL for now is largely using the A350 from DTW and added ATL-ICN because 3 planes can fly both ATL and DTW to ICN.

LAX is not in the plans right now to receive the A350 and DL just added a bunch of 777 pilots to LAX in what appears to be a buildup of transpacific flying from there.

I agree that it is time for someone to provide evidence that DL said the A350 couldn't make the SYD flight. It is far more likely that if they said anything about SYD and the A350 it is just that they will continue to use the 777LR because it is already at LAX and is the most capable plane available.
 
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flymco753
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:31 am

Crew runs begin this Saturday between ATL-DTW, daily for 5 days. No revenue or non revenue service.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
Geoff1947
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:16 am

A350 wrote:
Cool. I would have expected them to use it on a shorter route for the first weeks until the crew is more familiar with it and the second frame has arrived.


Second frame ready now and already handed to DL in TLS.
 
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flymco753
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:13 pm

Crew familiarization flights will take place this week with 501, 502 after indoc will make its familiarization runs, the route will be DTW-ATL to start. When revenue/non revenue flights begin it'll certainly be DTW-ATL, MCO is a rumor that's unlikely as much as I'd like to get on one to DTW, and LAX is a busted rumor. The only thing confirmed ATM is ATL/DTW.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
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flymco753
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:22 pm

Never thought of this, but DL says the 359 will be used PRIMARILY on TPAC, but there's hypothetically too many planes to fit the TPAC DL is outlining, so I wouldn't be surprised if DTW-AMS or CDG becomes available next summer on the 359 because as of now, on days where GRU and NGO both run, it doesn't add up on AMS frequency, you'd have a 332 sitting for over 24 hours, instead of making one sit, they can sub a 359 in for an existing 332 and move that 332 to another European route, perhaps FRA and MUC both become 332 because it wouldn't make sense for DL to add DTW-DUS or BCN or DUB on the 332 and fly it 2 or 3 times a week, that's not DL's ethic.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
DTWorld
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:46 pm

^ FRA is normally a 332 in the summer. I wouldn't be surprised to see the 350 in AMS, but I'm not holding my breath over it.
 
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flymco753
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:52 pm

DTWorld wrote:
^ FRA is normally a 332 in the summer. I wouldn't be surprised to see the 350 in AMS, but I'm not holding my breath over it.
Yeah they started that last year, and continued it this year. Next summer as of now, it shows FRA at a 764 which makes me wonder, if the 332 being used gets shifted to AMS and no 359 is needed, or they change it a few months out as they did for the last few years and another frame is needed to do GRU and NGO. Personally, I'd like to see the 359 do CDG as opposed to AMS, but knowing DL and the past with 744's it'll be AMS.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
DTWorld
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:16 pm

flymco753 wrote:
DTWorld wrote:
^ FRA is normally a 332 in the summer. I wouldn't be surprised to see the 350 in AMS, but I'm not holding my breath over it.
Yeah they started that last year, and continued it this year. Next summer as of now, it shows FRA at a 764 which makes me wonder, if the 332 being used gets shifted to AMS and no 359 is needed, or they change it a few months out as they did for the last few years and another frame is needed to do GRU and NGO. Personally, I'd like to see the 359 do CDG as opposed to AMS, but knowing DL and the past with 744's it'll be AMS.


Also keep in mind PEK will become a daily 359 starting in February, freeing up another 332. I always shook my head in disbelief that a 332 can fly DTW-PEK as that is really putting that plane through its paces.
 
tealnz
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:40 pm

xdlx wrote:
JFK-AKL .... Really! with a load of cotton I assume. And CERTAINLY not AKL-JFK, 1/2 routes do not count for city-pairs.


PAL has bought A359s specifically to do MNL-JFK non-stop. They have ordered the 278t variant and are configuring them with 300 seats. AKL-JFK looks around half an hour longer. A 280t A359 should let NZ do that route pretty comfortably, without having to slash pax numbers. AKL-JFK would be easier than the westbound sector of course. In the context of this thread the point is that the higher weight 359s, if Delta decides to order some in that configuration, will give it lots of scope to add future ULH routes without incurring the fuel penalty of a 77L.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:40 pm

I would not put a whole lot of stock into whatever the equipment types are showing for Summer 2018 at this point, its more or less a default schedule.

They typically will be big adjustments and start to refine the summer international schedule in late Fall. Fun to hypothesis, but a lot of changes. That said, I highly doubt they will put the A350 into AMS next summer.
 
atl100million
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:47 pm

It is doubtful they will pull 350s off of routes to Asia that they are introducing it on because the 350 introduces the Premium Select cabin. The 777s won't start getting the Premium Select cabin until after next summer.

Do we know the scheduled arrival months for the 2018 A350 deliveries?
 
777Mech
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:03 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Crew familiarization flights will take place this week with 501, 502 after indoc will make its familiarization runs, the route will be DTW-ATL to start. When revenue/non revenue flights begin it'll certainly be DTW-ATL, MCO is a rumor that's unlikely as much as I'd like to get on one to DTW, and LAX is a busted rumor. The only thing confirmed ATM is ATL/DTW.


3501 is still doing the ditching demo and minievac. It's going to go to DTW for a week and then it will do the ETOPS proving runs to NRT. It's only going to be a positioning flight to DTW, no back and forth.
 
MooLor
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:43 pm

dmorbust wrote:
winginit wrote:
dmorbust wrote:

Please tell me which earnings call that was or link to the correct earnings call transcript. I have listened to each of the last dozens of DL earnings calls and cannot remember a DL exec ever saying the A350 would be unable to serve LAX-SYD.


I'll see if I can't dig it up. I'm quite certain they've specifically said their 359 didn't have the legs for LAXSYD.


I'm quite certain a DL exec has never said that on an earnings call, or even in any recorded media occurrence anywhere for that matter. Not that I personally care one way or another, but this rumor has been propagated far too long on A.net so it is about time someone comes up with a citation/proof...


I don't know if this is relevant, but I was a passenger on a DL 77L LAX-SYD in September 2009, arriving the day the '2009 Australian dust storm' closed SYD - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Australian_dust_storm#Sydney

After a ~14 hour TPAC crossing, we did circuits off the coast for a couple of hours, from memory, awaiting clearance to land at SYD. The delay was long enough that I'm starting to wonder how much fuel reserve they carried, and grateful that my wife could not see the fuel gauges. :smile: We eventually diverted to BNE.

The point is, are DL perhaps more conservative with fuel reserves on this route than they need to be, given the longer crossing time when flying west? (I understand QF block A380 seats DFW - SYD and sometimes make a fuel stop at BNE.) Does the A359 not allow DL to be as conservative as they would like on this route? Making even an occasional fuel stop enroute would screw with DL's schedules - unlike QF, they do not have the luxury of flying west towards home base.

For my money, IMO DL need to fly the 77L somewhere, and it is more capable than the A359 for this airline on this route.
 
johns624
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:50 pm

Speaking of LAX-SYD on the 77L. Does it always terminate at T-2 or does it ever come into TBIT? I'm asking because I'm on that flight in a few months and trying to decide whether to get Global Entry to speed me through TBIT if it ever goes there. If it clears at T-2, it's not as big of a deal making my connecting flight.
 
compensateme
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:39 am

Why is it that every single thread about DL's 350 suddenly turn into a discussion about LAX-SYD? From reading a.net, you'd think it was DL's most prosperous route, when in reality we know it's a marginal performer for DL at best (search for the threads when the DOT reject AA-QF if you need a refresher) -- and that's precisely why DL's not choosing it amongst its initial routes. Two points:

#1) DL's using its initial 359 deliveries to do exactly what it said it intended to do with them when it ordered the aircraft: replace the 747 across the Pacific.

#2) LAX-SYD is a marginal route for DL, at best; any good business would deploy its next generation on its best performing routes, not its marginal ones. Think of your favorite grocery chain, which refurbishes its best performing stores at a faster clip -- so that its consumer base doesn't bolt for the competition. Same's true of the airline business. Putting the 359 on LAX/SYD isn't going to change DL's fortunes overnight (that takes time); its consumer base on trunk routes will leave for the competition if they feel the in-flight product is no longer up to par.

#3) As DL takes on more 359 (and the 777 are upgraded upfront), it's possible LAX/SYD will be considered, especially given the fuel efficiency over the distance.

But please, let's stop this nonsense of the "The Great Mystery of Why Delta Didn't Choose LAX/SYD to Be Its First 359 Route." Next up on a.net: DL's first 339 route NEEDS to be ATL/HNL -- and why does DL plan on retiring its oldest 333? Some are over 10-years-old!!! Icky!!
You're not the CEO; you were a menial aircraft support mechanic intern, and that was four years ago.
 
atl100million
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:06 am

compensateme wrote:
Why is it that every single thread about DL's 350 suddenly turn into a discussion about LAX-SYD? From reading a.net, you'd think it was DL's most prosperous route, when in reality we know it's a marginal performer for DL at best (search for the threads when the DOT reject AA-QF if you need a refresher) -- and that's precisely why DL's not choosing it amongst its initial routes. Two points:

#1) DL's using its initial 359 deliveries to do exactly what it said it intended to do with them when it ordered the aircraft: replace the 747 across the Pacific.

#2) LAX-SYD is a marginal route for DL, at best; any good business would deploy its next generation on its best performing routes, not its marginal ones. Think of your favorite grocery chain, which refurbishes its best performing stores at a faster clip -- so that its consumer base doesn't bolt for the competition. Same's true of the airline business. Putting the 359 on LAX/SYD isn't going to change DL's fortunes overnight (that takes time); its consumer base on trunk routes will leave for the competition if they feel the in-flight product is no longer up to par.

#3) As DL takes on more 359 (and the 777 are upgraded upfront), it's possible LAX/SYD will be considered, especially given the fuel efficiency over the distance.

But please, let's stop this nonsense of the "The Great Mystery of Why Delta Didn't Choose LAX/SYD to Be Its First 359 Route." Next up on a.net: DL's first 339 route NEEDS to be ATL/HNL -- and why does DL plan on retiring its oldest 333? Some are over 10-years-old!!! Icky!!


while I agree with you that the "why is the A350 not going to fly LAX-SYD" threads are way too old.....

where do you get your information that LAX-SYD is marginal for DL (you say we know it )?

In fact, according to DOT data, AA and DL carry NEARLY IDENTICAL amounts of revenue on LAX-SYD even though AA's current 777-300ERs are slightly larger than DL's 777-200LRs.

So, is AA ALSO marginal on LAX-SYD or is possible that assessments of DL's financial performance on LAX-SYD are the same kinds of a.net myths and legends that the A350 can't fly from LAX-SYD?

Further, your logic about switching to a newer generation aircraft is backward. If the flight was - um, marginal, they would do everything they could to put the most economical aircraft on the route as fast as possible. Since you and I know (yes we do) that the A350 COULD fly LAX-SYD if DL wanted to use it that way (it is blocked only about a half hour longer than ATL-ICN in the winter), the route clearly does well enough that DL DOESN'T NEED to pull the A350 off of DTW-Asia routes because the 777 does JUST FINE on LAX-SYD.
 
astuteman
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:14 am

xdlx wrote:
ASQ400 wrote:
VCEflyboy wrote:
Does the a350 have the legs to fly JFK east Asia?

Yeah. It has some of the longest legs in the industry.
It could even do JFK-AKL


JFK-AKL .... Really! with a load of cotton I assume. And CERTAINLY not AKL-JFK, 1/2 routes do not count for city-pairs.


JFK-AKL is 7 700Nm, but almost certainly the still-air distance on this westbound leg will be a lot more.
With max fuel of 108t, a standard A350-900 will fly a 25t payload 8 800Nm still air.
I don't know if this extra 1 100nm still-air would be enough to cover the headwinds on the westbound sector, but it feels about right IMO.
25t payload would imply payload limitations even for passengers only (sounds like a lot of cotton wool though :) )

The 280t A350ULR however, will carry another 5t over the distance.
I understand the DL A350 seating capacity to be 306 seats.
So by my calculations the 280t A350 should be good to take a full passenger load for DL, but no cargo, over about 8 700Nm still air.

SQ will be using the same plane to fly the 8 300Nm sector between SIN-JFK with a 250 seat cabin configuration
No idea what the equivalent still air distance is for this flight, but SQ's A350's will have increased tankage enabled for the flight.

Rgds
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:26 am

astuteman wrote:
xdlx wrote:
ASQ400 wrote:
Yeah. It has some of the longest legs in the industry.
It could even do JFK-AKL


JFK-AKL .... Really! with a load of cotton I assume. And CERTAINLY not AKL-JFK, 1/2 routes do not count for city-pairs.


JFK-AKL is 7 700Nm, but almost certainly the still-air distance on this westbound leg will be a lot more.
With max fuel of 108t, a standard A350-900 will fly a 25t payload 8 800Nm still air.
I don't know if this extra 1 100nm still-air would be enough to cover the headwinds on the westbound sector, but it feels about right IMO.
25t payload would imply payload limitations even for passengers only (sounds like a lot of cotton wool though :) )

The 280t A350ULR however, will carry another 5t over the distance.
I understand the DL A350 seating capacity to be 306 seats.
So by my calculations the 280t A350 should be good to take a full passenger load for DL, but no cargo, over about 8 700Nm still air.

SQ will be using the same plane to fly the 8 300Nm sector between SIN-JFK with a 250 seat cabin configuration
No idea what the equivalent still air distance is for this flight, but SQ's A350's will have increased tankage enabled for the flight.

Rgds


SIN-JFK will be operated with a 170 seat configuration, not the regular 250 seat. The A350ULR will not be configured like the rest.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6609
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Re: DL A350 inaugural flight will be DTW-NRT

Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:34 am

ikolkyo wrote:
astuteman wrote:
xdlx wrote:

JFK-AKL .... Really! with a load of cotton I assume. And CERTAINLY not AKL-JFK, 1/2 routes do not count for city-pairs.


JFK-AKL is 7 700Nm, but almost certainly the still-air distance on this westbound leg will be a lot more.
With max fuel of 108t, a standard A350-900 will fly a 25t payload 8 800Nm still air.
I don't know if this extra 1 100nm still-air would be enough to cover the headwinds on the westbound sector, but it feels about right IMO.
25t payload would imply payload limitations even for passengers only (sounds like a lot of cotton wool though :) )

The 280t A350ULR however, will carry another 5t over the distance.
I understand the DL A350 seating capacity to be 306 seats.
So by my calculations the 280t A350 should be good to take a full passenger load for DL, but no cargo, over about 8 700Nm still air.

SQ will be using the same plane to fly the 8 300Nm sector between SIN-JFK with a 250 seat cabin configuration
No idea what the equivalent still air distance is for this flight, but SQ's A350's will have increased tankage enabled for the flight.

Rgds


SIN-JFK will be operated with a 170 seat configuration, not the regular 250 seat. The A350ULR will not be configured like the rest.


Thanks for this.
I was looking for a link but could only find the "standard" ULR config
I assume this config ensures that any likely headwind component of the equivalent still-air distance can be accommodated without blocking seats.

Rgds
 
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flymco753
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:14 am

777Mech wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Crew familiarization flights will take place this week with 501, 502 after indoc will make its familiarization runs, the route will be DTW-ATL to start. When revenue/non revenue flights begin it'll certainly be DTW-ATL, MCO is a rumor that's unlikely as much as I'd like to get on one to DTW, and LAX is a busted rumor. The only thing confirmed ATM is ATL/DTW.


3501 is still doing the ditching demo and minievac. It's going to go to DTW for a week and then it will do the ETOPS proving runs to NRT. It's only going to be a positioning flight to DTW, no back and forth.
From what I heard, tomorrow through Thursday it will do ATL-DTW and depart at about 1 back to ATL, and it isn't until next week where it will remain home.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
TW870
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:17 am

Just worth noting that ATL-ICN is only 290nm shorter than LAX-SYD. So DL is already scheduling the aircraft on a route that is almost as long as a route that some have said that managers said the aircraft cannot do. Plus, there will likely be A359 PIPs coming out soon, which will make the aircraft even more capable. As others have said, this is a marketing issue and not an aircraft performance issue.
 
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flymco753
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:11 pm

N501DN is enroute to DTW.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
jumbojet
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:47 pm

flymco753 wrote:
N501DN is enroute to DTW.


Yup, as DL 9970. Landing in 7 minutes. Why oh why cant DL allow some of its best elite fliers on one of these flights?
 
ocracoke
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:32 pm

jumbojet wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
N501DN is enroute to DTW.


Yup, as DL 9970. Landing in 7 minutes. Why oh why cant DL allow some of its best elite fliers on one of these flights?


Are you sure? I'm in northern KY today, and there is what appears to be a DL A350 doing laps and/or touch-and-goes at CVG. I've counted 5 laps so far.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:53 pm

ocracoke wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
N501DN is enroute to DTW.


Yup, as DL 9970. Landing in 7 minutes. Why oh why cant DL allow some of its best elite fliers on one of these flights?


Are you sure? I'm in northern KY today, and there is what appears to be a DL A350 doing laps and/or touch-and-goes at CVG. I've counted 5 laps so far.


Looks like it is indeed doing some laps before heading to DTW, https://www.flightradar24.com/DAL9970/e738567
 
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flymco753
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:57 pm

It's almost home.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
avellanetjr
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:22 pm

Landing at DTW in the next 20mins.
 
compensateme
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:38 pm

atl100million wrote:
while I agree with you that the "why is the A350 not going to fly LAX-SYD" threads are way too old.....

where do you get your information that LAX-SYD is marginal for DL (you say we know it )?

In fact, according to DOT data, AA and DL carry NEARLY IDENTICAL amounts of revenue on LAX-SYD even though AA's current 777-300ERs are slightly larger than DL's 777-200LRs.

So, is AA ALSO marginal on LAX-SYD or is possible that assessments of DL's financial performance on LAX-SYD are the same kinds of a.net myths and legends that the A350 can't fly from LAX-SYD?


I never mentioned AA -- I merely stated it was a marginal route for DL. While reliable international data is hard to come across, unless you've been given access or subscribe to a third-party, the DOT itself shared the information in rejecting QF-AA:

http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf98/484.pdf (see page 15)

DL managed an average segment fare of $862, significantly less than UA and a heck of a lot less than QF. Given the stage length of LAX/SYD... yes, it's very much a marginal route (so much that the DOT was concerned that approving AA-QF, despite AA's minimal presence on the route, could chase DL off).

Further, your logic about switching to a newer generation aircraft is backward. If the flight was - um, marginal, they would do everything they could to put the most economical aircraft on the route as fast as possible. Since you and I know (yes we do) that the A350 COULD fly LAX-SYD if DL wanted to use it that way (it is blocked only about a half hour longer than ATL-ICN in the winter), the route clearly does well enough that DL DOESN'T NEED to pull the A350 off of DTW-Asia routes because the 777 does JUST FINE on LAX-SYD.


This is an example of a logical fallacy, and I've already addressed it in my previous posting but I'll try again:

Think of McDonald's; when McD's (and its operators) chooses to renovate its stores, does it start with its top-performing locations or marginal-performing locations in competitive markets? By a.net logic, a decade ago McD's would've first added WiFi to its marginal, competitive stores since they can market it to attract new consumers. Problem is, there's no guarantee it will attract new consumers and meanwhile, consumers at your top-performing location have fled to Starbucks since it offered WiFi (and true to retail, they're not coming back). Fact is, it's easier to maintain market share than to grow it, which is why in retail top-performing locations will nearly always get new amenities first and endure shorter renovation cycles than marginal-performing ones.

DL's going to get fuel economy savings, whether it deploys the 359 on DTW-PVG or LAX-SYD. Fact is, that's just one piece of the puzzle -- if fuel economy were most important, DL would be rushing to get the 359 on LAX/SYD, ATL/JNB, etc. Instead, DL's heavily promoting the product itself (they began marketing the 359 to businesses with traffic to Asia well over a year ago); it recognizes its consumers have choices and it's trying to protect its marketshare. Meanwhile, LAX/SYD will have to wait -- it very well may get 359 service, it just won't be among the initial routes.

Like I said, LAX/SYD is not the route a.net wants to make it to be.
You're not the CEO; you were a menial aircraft support mechanic intern, and that was four years ago.
 
bmacleod
Posts: 2833
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:16 pm

Any ideas what first ATL international routes will be? I saw ATL/DTW as initializing route.

That is DL main hub after all...
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
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bluefltspecial
Posts: 353
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:32 pm

Everyone is getting all up in arms about SYD. It's unnecessary. I love SYD/BNE/CNS/MEL just as much as the next one, but it's not in the cards for a long time folks, move on.

Delta has clearly stated that the A350 will be started and based in DTW. Because it's a new aircraft, it will have some weird unplanned MX bugs to play with the first year, and hence it should be kept to ONE maintenance base since there will only be a few aircraft to start. That happens with all aircraft, everything from Airbus to Boeing to Bombardier to Embraer have clearly shown this when a new aircraft is launched, there are new quirks that they have to learn about, anyone who has worked in the maintenance/tech ops field can tell you that every aircraft has it's own ticks about it. That being said, for now all routings for this bird will likely be "out and back" just to DTW to start. Hopefully we'll see some nice proving runs to Florida from there and maybe West Coast.

Once it's proven itself, I'm sure we can expect new "W" pattern routings like DTW-Asia-LAX/SEA-Asia-DTW etc. Remember though that Delta has deferred a number deliveries for a few years so don't expect too much on new routings to Europe and the like, keep in mind this is planned as a direct 747 replacement which mainly saw service to Asia from DTW.

Regardless I'm looking forward to getting my backside into one of those nice Delta One seats for a long journey. I love the 787 so I can only imagine the how nice the A350 will be.
Save a horse, ride a Fly-boy....
 
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bluefltspecial
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:33 pm

ap305 wrote:
Here we go again.... a350 275t with a reasonably heavy and dense three class config- 136t oew, 30t for pax plus bags, 5t for catering, 6t fuel reserves leaves 98t for trip fuel. At 5.9t/hour gives approx 16.6hrs in the air which at 501kts ground speed (mach.85 at 30k ft) gives a very rough still air distance of 8300nm..... There will be airlines with heavier configs and more conservative mission rules but there is no way that an a359 will not do lax-syd-lax with 290-310 passengers and a reasonably heavy lift in the belly. even the 268t variant will do it easily. However there may be other reasons that Delta may not want to use it on the route- performance is not the likely issue.


Bravo.

and thank you for this.

I love it when people use facts to back things up rather than general statements.
Save a horse, ride a Fly-boy....
 
jumbojet
Posts: 1932
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:33 pm

looks like its going back home to Atlanta in 1 hr and 26 minutes as DL flight 9971
 
ooslc
Posts: 229
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Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:39 pm

bmacleod wrote:
Any ideas what first ATL international routes will be? I saw ATL/DTW as initializing route.

That is DL main hub after all...


Head back to reply #98. I outlined the scheduled flights announced so far. First one out of ATL is ICN in March.
    Ironically, I don't work for OO anymore, and I'm not in SLC anymore. PDX based, aviation enthusiast, non-aviation worker.
 
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thewizbizman
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 4:15 pm

Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:42 pm

Personally, I hate Airbus and I hate that they are replacing the 772, but, bottom line, glad to have them in the fleet
 
jumbojet
Posts: 1932
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: DL outlines A350 routes

Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:42 pm

ooslc wrote:
bmacleod wrote:
Any ideas what first ATL international routes will be? I saw ATL/DTW as initializing route.

That is DL main hub after all...


Head back to reply #98. I outlined the scheduled flights announced so far. First one out of ATL is ICN in March.


DL flight 27. This is also the debut of the red eye to Incheon.. It departs ATL a little after midnight and lands at ICN at 0400.

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