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PatrickZ80 wrote:If the French continue to 'restore the balance' and take away the profit made by KLM it might be better for KLM to split up with Air France. KLM can make it on it's own, Air France is only a drag to them.
TheGeordielad wrote:AFKL like patrick said should split up. KLM needs to do it or they will end up having their profits dragged away to help safe an airline and then their service will drop and then they will drop.KLM needs to take action.
par13del wrote:Correct me I amwrong but is it not one company that owns both airlines and have them operating as separate entities, if so how exactly is KLM going to go its own way?
This is the price the owners are paying for wanting to maintain some semblance of nationalism, they should have put both under one name even if something new.
FGITD wrote:That's correct. There is no Air France, there is no KLM. Only AIRFRANCE-KLM.
Varsity1 wrote:It's one company.
Jetty wrote:Such a scenario would be possible when AFKL agrees to limit the growth of KL to please AF pilots, which is definitely not in the best interest of KL itself but only in the interest of AFKL as a whole.
PatrickZ80 wrote:Jetty wrote:Such a scenario would be possible when AFKL agrees to limit the growth of KL to please AF pilots, which is definitely not in the best interest of KL itself but only in the interest of AFKL as a whole.
It's not even good for Air France/KLM as a whole, it's only good for Air France. They let KLM do the hard work so Air France can grow. That ain't fair. KLM earned this growth, so it's KLM that gets to grow. There can be no rebalancing.
It is only good for the pilots of Air France.
mig17 wrote:It is only good for the pilots of Air France.
No, it seems to also be good for shareholders since the AIR FRANCE - KLM share has rise from 5 to almost 11€ in four month : http://www.boursorama.com/cours.phtml?symbole=1rPAF
FGITD wrote:There is no Air France, there is no KLM. Only AIRFRANCE-KLM.
flyguy89 wrote:Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but KLM cannot unilaterally "spin-off" since KLM belongs to the holding company. The only way KLM could possibly become a standalone airline again would be if a group of investors made a bid to the holding company to purchase their assets.
mozart wrote:The negotiations between AF management and the AF pilots on Boost seem to be getting nowhere. The pilots' union has asked their members to vote for either management's plans or for an alternative project - which as a notable element maintains separate toilets for pilots to use on the A350 planes, instead of increasing the number of seats.
I am all for unions. But on which planet do those guys live to even spend time thinking up stuff like this? "We want to keep our own toilets"? Seriously?
Jetty wrote:flyguy89 wrote:Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but KLM cannot unilaterally "spin-off" since KLM belongs to the holding company. The only way KLM could possibly become a standalone airline again would be if a group of investors made a bid to the holding company to purchase their assets.
Technically it would be possible when all Dutch parties (that combined have a majority of the voting rights) agree to issue new shares thereby diluting AFKL's share in the company. But very unlikely scenario.
VSMUT wrote:Jetty wrote:flyguy89 wrote:Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but KLM cannot unilaterally "spin-off" since KLM belongs to the holding company. The only way KLM could possibly become a standalone airline again would be if a group of investors made a bid to the holding company to purchase their assets.
Technically it would be possible when all Dutch parties (that combined have a majority of the voting rights) agree to issue new shares thereby diluting AFKL's share in the company. But very unlikely scenario.
But does the Dutch government actually own a part of KLM any more? I can't really find any place where they are listed as a shareholder of KLM, and multiple sources list KLM as a fully-owned subsidiary of Air France-KLM. Are you sure the Dutch shares aren't in Air France-KLM?
VSMUT wrote:
But does the Dutch government actually own a part of KLM any more? I can't really find any place where they are listed as a shareholder of KLM, and multiple sources list KLM as a fully-owned subsidiary of Air France-KLM. Are you sure the Dutch shares aren't in Air France-KLM?
Varsity1 wrote:It's one company. There should be further consolidation in Europe to drive up revenue. Marginal rev always meets marginal costs when there are too many players in a commodity market.
Jetty wrote:Dutch corporate law allows the supervisory board to make decision contrary to those of the shareholder if it's in the best interest of the company. I.e. when AFKL would want generate cash by having KL sell some of it's assets the supervisory board could disagree when this would seriously damage the solvability of KL.
kitplane01 wrote:In America that would make *no* sense. Legally, the "best interests of the company" are exactly the same as the best profit to the shareholders, by definition. Boards are required to act in this best interest (maximize profits to shareholders). In the Netherlands, what does it mean for the "best interests of the company" that is different than maximize shareholder profit?
Jetty wrote:kitplane01 wrote:In America that would make *no* sense. Legally, the "best interests of the company" are exactly the same as the best profit to the shareholders, by definition. Boards are required to act in this best interest (maximize profits to shareholders). In the Netherlands, what does it mean for the "best interests of the company" that is different than maximize shareholder profit?
It means management can take the interest of other stakeholders into account. Shareholder profit is definitely recognized as a major and valid interest, but not above all others. Legal explanation in the context of a recent case: https://corporatefinancelab.org/2017/06 ... der-model/
Also note that in the case of AFKL/KL it's very imaginable that the main shareholder (AFKL) supports decisions that don't even have maximum profit of KL as it's goal, i.e. when limiting growth to appease AF pilots.
From the article you offered ... As surprising as the Enterprise Chamber’s decision may seem from an Anglo-Saxon perspective, it continues a well established Dutch tradition of the stakeholder model. Dutch courts have consistently held that directors should take into account “the interests of all stakeholders, including shareholders”
Luchtvaartmaatschappij KLM wordt de komende jaren beknot in haar investeringen door afspraken in Frankrijk over de verdeling van nieuwe vliegtuigen.
Afgelopen week is de Franse pilotenvakbond SNPL akkoord gegaan met het plan van Joon, een prijsvechter op de lange afstanden. Wat aan de buitenwereld niet kenbaar is gemaakt, is dat er is afgesproken dat Air France er twee vliegtuigen bijkrijgt als KLM er de komende jaren één bij krijgt, zo blijkt uit een interne mededeling van KLM.
De Nederlandse luchtvaartmaatschappij is de afgelopen jaren gegroeid door een bezuinigingsplan, waardoor meer routes gevlogen konden worden. Hierdoor is de onderlinge verhouding van vluchten 60% voor Air France en 40% voor KLM in het voordeel van de laatste veranderd richting de 45%. Dit vinden de Franse piloten ’oneerlijk’.
Financieel moeras
Air France zal dubbel zo hard moeten groeien om KLM nog in te halen. Het verbijsterende is dat als dat niet lukt, de Franse piloten extra geld krijgen ter compensatie. Daarmee trek je jezelf een financieel moeras in”, zegt voorzitter Jan-Willem van Dijk van de ondernemingsraad van KLM.
Iemand91 wrote:
Iemand91 wrote:This is in the news again:
Ambitie KLM beknotLuchtvaartmaatschappij KLM wordt de komende jaren beknot in haar investeringen door afspraken in Frankrijk over de verdeling van nieuwe vliegtuigen.
Afgelopen week is de Franse pilotenvakbond SNPL akkoord gegaan met het plan van Joon, een prijsvechter op de lange afstanden. Wat aan de buitenwereld niet kenbaar is gemaakt, is dat er is afgesproken dat Air France er twee vliegtuigen bijkrijgt als KLM er de komende jaren één bij krijgt, zo blijkt uit een interne mededeling van KLM.
De Nederlandse luchtvaartmaatschappij is de afgelopen jaren gegroeid door een bezuinigingsplan, waardoor meer routes gevlogen konden worden. Hierdoor is de onderlinge verhouding van vluchten 60% voor Air France en 40% voor KLM in het voordeel van de laatste veranderd richting de 45%. Dit vinden de Franse piloten ’oneerlijk’.
Financieel moeras
Air France zal dubbel zo hard moeten groeien om KLM nog in te halen. Het verbijsterende is dat als dat niet lukt, de Franse piloten extra geld krijgen ter compensatie. Daarmee trek je jezelf een financieel moeras in”, zegt voorzitter Jan-Willem van Dijk van de ondernemingsraad van KLM.
Basically:
- The French Pilot Union SNPL have agreed with the creation of Boost or Joon. Discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1368517
- What apparently hasn't been told to the public is the fact they also agreed on a rule that when KLM gains 1 aircraft; AF gains 2.
- In a longer article in the Financial section of the newspaper it's als mentioned AF basically doesn't have the financial power to invest (in new aircraft) which basically means KLM can not gain any more aircraft.
- 35% of AF's long haul flights are loss making
- And the weirdest thing of all; if AF isn't able to grow; the French pilots must be financially compensated.
Iemand91 wrote:Well.. it's time for KLM to make a hard decision. Stay in a group where the other part of the group is trying to screw you over every time or deal with it alone. I'm sure Delta would right away jump at the chance to get a major part of the KL shares if the group splits up.
sekant wrote:Iemand91 wrote:Well.. it's time for KLM to make a hard decision. Stay in a group where the other part of the group is trying to screw you over every time or deal with it alone. I'm sure Delta would right away jump at the chance to get a major part of the KL shares if the group splits up.
Air France is trying to sc*ew over KLM?
Dou mean the Air France that bankrolled KLM when the merger took place (to refresh memories, KLM was hurting then and Air France doing very well) ? Do you mean the Air France that then provided the means for KLM to greatly expand, open many new routes and to become what it is today? Do you mean the Air France Group that has supported KLM expansion up to this day?
Incredible
Dutchy wrote:
So the saga continues.
FrancisBegbie wrote:Dutchy wrote:
So the saga continues.
You can say that again. I'm wondering where all this infighting is leading to. The fact that it's now in the open is also not very helpful.
They're in bed together, for better or for worse. Whether or not Joon will change anything substantially for the group remains to be seen, but the new CEO needs to start somewhere. Maybe it's the best he could do at this point in time. Shooting it down before it starts by the Head of KLM's Worker's Council (in public), won't help KLM in the long run I am afraid.
sekant wrote:Iemand91 wrote:Well.. it's time for KLM to make a hard decision. Stay in a group where the other part of the group is trying to screw you over every time or deal with it alone. I'm sure Delta would right away jump at the chance to get a major part of the KL shares if the group splits up.
Air France is trying to sc*ew over KLM?
Dou mean the Air France that bankrolled KLM when the merger took place (to refresh memories, KLM was hurting then and Air France doing very well) ? Do you mean the Air France that then provided the means for KLM to greatly expand, open many new routes and to become what it is today? Do you mean the Air France Group that has supported KLM expansion up to this day?
Incredible
JeremyB wrote:I'm not sure about the last part, if I'm correct the Air France Group has been trying to stop KLM from growing or at least let Air France grow much faster.
The merger between Air France and KLM was based on a 60/40 % work agreement, but currently it's at 54/46% which has caused a lot of anger at Air France.
KLM is growing rapidly due to all the reorganization that took place in the past couple of years, KLM is expanding and they are profitable. Every airline combination would be happy, except the AF-KL Group where the Air France unions want the 60/40 work agreement to be reinstated again.
Nola wrote:Why would DL want AF and KLM to split? Doesn't DL connect a lot of passengers through both AMS and CDG? Would DL really want to lose CDG as a hub and the revenue to/from Paris or Nice generated by the joint venture?
Nola wrote:Delta just announced an equity investment in AF/KLM. They will buy 10% and have a board seat.
Nola wrote:AF/KLM would acquire part of Virgin, although that part of the press release was somewhat confusing.
Jetty wrote:While not as good as DL investing in KL directly that is definitely good news imo. The less influence the French (politicians) have in AF/KL the better it is for KL!
Jetty wrote:JeremyB wrote:I'm not sure about the last part, if I'm correct the Air France Group has been trying to stop KLM from growing or at least let Air France grow much faster.
What is your basis for the claim that AF/KL has been trying to stop the growth of KL or let AF grow much faster? This has been reported over and over in the past years, yet KL grew 15% more than AF in the past 5 years alone. Note that the false stories always originated at the same journalist: Yteke de Jong. So if you're reading The Telegraaf and are interested in aviation you might consider getting your information somewhere else.
It hasn't been just reported in the Telegraaf which is probably the worst newspaper in The Netherlands, so no I don't read it.The merger between Air France and KLM was based on a 60/40 % work agreement, but currently it's at 54/46% which has caused a lot of anger at Air France.
What is the measurement of those percentages? I can't think of any where the difference shifted only 6% since the merger.
These numbers where mentioned internally, can't really say more about it.KLM is growing rapidly due to all the reorganization that took place in the past couple of years, KLM is expanding and they are profitable. Every airline combination would be happy, except the AF-KL Group where the Air France unions want the 60/40 work agreement to be reinstated again.
As much as I dislike AF I'm going to add some nuance to the story. KL is also growing rapidly because AMS has become the cheapest large airport of Europe, AMS and the Dutch government are facilitating growth, the Dutch economy performs much better than the French one and The Netherlands/Amsterdam didn't have any Muslims committing terror attacks.
Also it's fair to remember that it were the Dutch unions that initiated an agreement about the balance between AF and KL, as at the time of the merger they were scared AF would move flights from AMS to CDG.
Iemand91 wrote:- 35% of AF's long haul flights are loss making