Effective Oct. 29, Air France will drop its flights to Montevideo, Uruguay, currently operated 5x w as a tag on of its daily 777 CDG-EZE service. AF-KL will now offer services to both CDG and AMS via GRU, leveraging its relationship with GOL.

These Uruguay tag ons from EZE have been tried by a number of airlines (AA, UA, AF come to mind) to serve a destination as MVD that in most cases, (exception of MIA and MAD) is not able to support service to long haul destinations. And they never work in the long run; particularly at at time when AF has no trouble filling that 777 at EZE with a better yield mix. Flying an oftentimes 2/3 empty 777 across the RIver Plate to/from Uruguay does not sound like a recipe for success.

Sad but unsurprising.

It still amazes me how MVD can support both Iberia and Air Europa flights to MAD.

Mistral1 wrote:

It still amazes me how MVD can support both Iberia and Air Europa flights to MAD.

There is a pretty important uruguayan community living in Spain. I think many migrated during the 2002 crisis.

In any case, Iberia flies 5 times a week and Air Europa only 3 times weekly.

dcajet wrote:

Effective Oct. 29, Air France will drop its flights to Montevideo, Uruguay, currently operated 5x w as a tag on of its daily 777 CDG-EZE service. AF-KL will now offer services to both CDG and AMS via GRU, leveraging its relationship with GOL.

These Uruguay tag ons from EZE have been tried by a number of airlines (AA, UA, AF come to mind) to serve a destination as MVD that in most cases, (exception of MIA and MAD) is not able to support service to long haul destinations. And they never work in the long run; particularly at at time when AF has no trouble filling that 777 at EZE with a better yield mix. Flying an oftentimes 2/3 empty 777 across the RIver Plate to/from Uruguay does not sound like a recipe for success.

I don't want to be "that guy", but MVD would be a perfect destination for a MoM-sized aircraft from North America.

TWA772LR wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Effective Oct. 29, Air France will drop its flights to Montevideo, Uruguay, currently operated 5x w as a tag on of its daily 777 CDG-EZE service. AF-KL will now offer services to both CDG and AMS via GRU, leveraging its relationship with GOL.

These Uruguay tag ons from EZE have been tried by a number of airlines (AA, UA, AF come to mind) to serve a destination as MVD that in most cases, (exception of MIA and MAD) is not able to support service to long haul destinations. And they never work in the long run; particularly at at time when AF has no trouble filling that 777 at EZE with a better yield mix. Flying an oftentimes 2/3 empty 777 across the RIver Plate to/from Uruguay does not sound like a recipe for success.

I don't want to be "that guy", but MVD would be a perfect destination for a MoM-sized aircraft from North America.

it would. I'm sure DL would try it from ATL at the minimum

AA seem to have no problem with the MIA-MVD. they apparently even considered running a LUS 330 on it last winter apparently, so maybe we'll see that in the future?

wenders825 wrote:

TWA772LR wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Effective Oct. 29, Air France will drop its flights to Montevideo, Uruguay, currently operated 5x w as a tag on of its daily 777 CDG-EZE service. AF-KL will now offer services to both CDG and AMS via GRU, leveraging its relationship with GOL.

These Uruguay tag ons from EZE have been tried by a number of airlines (AA, UA, AF come to mind) to serve a destination as MVD that in most cases, (exception of MIA and MAD) is not able to support service to long haul destinations. And they never work in the long run; particularly at at time when AF has no trouble filling that 777 at EZE with a better yield mix. Flying an oftentimes 2/3 empty 777 across the RIver Plate to/from Uruguay does not sound like a recipe for success.

I don't want to be "that guy", but MVD would be a perfect destination for a MoM-sized aircraft from North America.

it would. I'm sure DL would try it from ATL at the minimum

AA seem to have no problem with the MIA-MVD. they apparently even considered running a LUS 330 on it last winter apparently, so maybe we'll see that in the future?

Does AA still fly JFK-MVD by chance?

dcajet wrote:

Effective Oct. 29, Air France will drop its flights to Montevideo, Uruguay, currently operated 5x w as a tag on of its daily 777 CDG-EZE service. AF-KL will now offer services to both CDG and AMS via GRU, leveraging its relationship with GOL.

Is that route also served by Skyteam partner AR, from EZE (or AEP) ?

lesfalls wrote:

wenders825 wrote:

TWA772LR wrote:

I don't want to be "that guy", but MVD would be a perfect destination for a MoM-sized aircraft from North America.

it would. I'm sure DL would try it from ATL at the minimum

AA seem to have no problem with the MIA-MVD. they apparently even considered running a LUS 330 on it last winter apparently, so maybe we'll see that in the future?

Does AA still fly JFK-MVD by chance?

Negatory, just a MIA-MVD flight.

lesfalls wrote:

Does AA still fly JFK-MVD by chance?

They did years ago as tag on from EZE, Then they introduced a non stop 767 from MIA and dropped the short hop to EZE.

goldorak wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Effective Oct. 29, Air France will drop its flights to Montevideo, Uruguay, currently operated 5x w as a tag on of its daily 777 CDG-EZE service. AF-KL will now offer services to both CDG and AMS via GRU, leveraging its relationship with GOL.

Is that route also served by Skyteam partner AR, from EZE (or AEP) ?

Yes both AR and AU do, but time and distance wise, connecting at GRU is more efficient. EZE is to the west of MVD, a detour and GRU is on the way to Europe.

AF started MVD after IB dropped and they were the only Europan connection to/from Uruguay.

I think that the service being a tag from EZE is just a waste. I think a non stop CDG-MVD maybe 2 or 3 weekly would have worked better than what they currently offer though.

[/twoid]

Mistral1 wrote:

It still amazes me how MVD can support both Iberia and Air Europa flights to MAD.

Although MVD is a small market, Uruguay still one of the wealthies countries in Latin America.

With almost half the Uruguayan population of Italian origin, the only other gateway to Europe I could see is FCO.
Maybe a 3xw FCO-MVD by AZ could work just fine.

It's seems very few people understand rioplatense demographics. The entire Republic of Uruguay is 3.5M. Argentina is 43M, 15M in Buenos Aires province alone. While they do have a higher GDP and more even income distribution than Argentina, it's still a small country. The Uruguayan community in Spain goes back to the 1970s/80s, when nearly one third of the citizens fled due to the dictatorship.

Pu752 wrote:

[/twoid]

Mistral1 wrote:

It still amazes me how MVD can support both Iberia and Air Europa flights to MAD.

Although MVD is a small market, Uruguay still one of the wealthies countries in Latin America.

Unfortunately for Uruguay, its economy is not large enough to support much in the way of non stop flights to pretty much anywhere other than the cities already served. And it is not a high yielding destination.

Pu752 wrote:

AF started MVD after IB dropped and they were the only Europan connection to/from Uruguay.

I think that the service being a tag from EZE is just a waste. I think a non stop CDG-MVD maybe 2 or 3 weekly would have worked better than what they currently offer though.

AF saw an opportunity in MVD not only when IB dropped it, but for other reasons too. Back then, Cristina Kirchner's administration was restricting the sale of foreign currency in Argentina. So demand dropped at EZE and MVD was a good way to improve AF's numbers on the CDG-EZE route. Once Kirchner left office, the Argentina foreign currency market was opened once again, which cause demand to soar. With travel to/fr Argentina experiencing high demand, AF can fill the plane with better yields there. I am surprised the service lasted this long. The writing has been on the wall for some time now: on an average day, those 777s are leaving MVD with 50-70 passengers, and some of those may be local traffic between the MVD and EZE, as AF has fifth freedom rights on the route.

dcajet wrote:

Pu752 wrote:

[/twoid]

Mistral1 wrote:

It still amazes me how MVD can support both Iberia and Air Europa flights to MAD.

Although MVD is a small market, Uruguay still one of the wealthies countries in Latin America.

Unfortunately for Uruguay, its economy is not large enough to support much in the way of non stop flights to pretty much anywhere other than the cities already served. And it is not a high yielding destination.

Pu752 wrote:

AF started MVD after IB dropped and they were the only Europan connection to/from Uruguay.

I think that the service being a tag from EZE is just a waste. I think a non stop CDG-MVD maybe 2 or 3 weekly would have worked better than what they currently offer though.

AF saw an opportunity in MVD not only when IB dropped it, but for other reasons too. Back then, Cristina Kirchner's administration was restricting the sale of foreign currency in Argentina. So demand dropped at EZE and MVD was a good way to improve AF's numbers on the CDG-EZE route. Once Kirchner left office, the Argentina foreign currency market was opened once again, which cause demand to soar. With travel to/fr Argentina experiencing high demand, AF can fill the plane with better yields there. I am surprised the service lasted this long. The writing has been on the wall for some time now: on an average day, those 777s are leaving MVD with 50-70 passengers, and some of those may be local traffic between the MVD and EZE, as AF has fifth freedom rights on the route.

MVD traditionally IS a high yeld market, despite being a small market. I think you should check your facts or sources.

Pu752 wrote:

MVD traditionally IS a high yeld market, despite being a small market. I think you should check your facts or sources.

Compare yields on IB and AA out of MVD with those out of to EZE on the MAD and MIA routes. That is an apples to apples comparison. I think you will be surprised.

Small markets tend to be higher yielding, but compared to its neighbors, that is not the case for MVD.

dcajet wrote:

Flying an oftentimes 2/3 empty 777 across the RIver Plate to/from Uruguay does not sound like a recipe for success.

I flew the MVD to EZE segment on AF two times. It was a great option. Much cheaper than AR and basically an empty cabin. Both times, economy was less than 20% full.

Interestingly, the MVD-EZE segment fed traffic into KL heading to AMS and also DL going to ATL not to mention any AR flights that were departing EZE.

dcajet wrote:

Pu752 wrote:

MVD traditionally IS a high yeld market, despite being a small market. I think you should check your facts or sources.

Compare yields on IB and AA out of MVD with those out of to EZE on the MAD and MIA routes. That is an apples to apples comparison. I think you will be surprised.

Small markets tend to be higher yielding, but compared to its neighbors, that is not the case for MVD.

Are you really comparing MVD / EZE?.

You should compare COR, MDZ, ROS to MVD. I think you will be surprised.

Seat1F wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Flying an oftentimes 2/3 empty 777 across the RIver Plate to/from Uruguay does not sound like a recipe for success.

I flew the MVD to EZE segment on AF two times. It was a great option. Much cheaper than AR and basically an empty cabin. Both times, economy was less than 20% full.

Interestingly, the MVD-EZE segment fed traffic into KL heading to AMS and also DL going to ATL not to mention any AR flights that were departing EZE.

Umm... did you just move the goal posts?!?

There's a lot of Spanish companies operating in Uruguay, so that could be a big part of it, too. But yes, fares tend to be less than MAD-EZE which is always expensive and the flights are packed with 4 daily flights, 2x IB, AR, UX.

I wouldn't be shocked if another rotation from any of them would happen soon, too.

Pu752 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Pu752 wrote:

MVD traditionally IS a high yeld market, despite being a small market. I think you should check your facts or sources.

Compare yields on IB and AA out of MVD with those out of to EZE on the MAD and MIA routes. That is an apples to apples comparison. I think you will be surprised.

Small markets tend to be higher yielding, but compared to its neighbors, that is not the case for MVD.

Are you really comparing MVD / EZE?.

You should compare COR, MDZ, ROS to MVD. I think you will be surprised.

Yes, I am. Capital to capital. But thank you for making my point, and comparing a capital of one country to provincial cities, that in any case, at least COR and MDZ, move more traffic than MVD. What is lacking in international connectivity, is made up with domestic flights. I am not comparing, just stating a fact. If you feel that comparing MVD with other regional capital cities is not fair, then don't make the claim that MVD is high yielding in the context of this thread, which is about Air France and MVD. A fair comparison to MVD are VVI and ASU. Then yes, I am certain that we can say MVD is a high yielding market for its comp set.

LIPZ wrote:

With almost half the Uruguayan population of Italian origin, the only other gateway to Europe I could see is FCO.
Maybe a 3xw FCO-MVD by AZ could work just fine.

Well, more than 60% of the population of Argentina is Italian which is a market that is alot bigger than Uruguay and yet FCO-EZE is not a very busy route. Plus AZ's situation is very bad.

Having visiting Uruguay recently, I can certainly attest to what an awesome country it is, and what a nice city Montevideo is (and frankly, for that matter, what a nice airport MVD is!). But I agree that this move is logical. MVD as a market isn't that large, and what market there is can probably be served more economically by Air France/KLM via one of the multiple one-stop connecting options available via SkyTeam (Aerolineas) and other codeshare partners (GOL). As others have said, the Uruguay longhaul market is probably sufficiently served by the nonstops to MIA and MVD, plus the abundant connecting options available via those points plus GRU, EZE, BOG, PTY, etc.

nadavatar64 wrote:

LIPZ wrote:

With almost half the Uruguayan population of Italian origin, the only other gateway to Europe I could see is FCO.
Maybe a 3xw FCO-MVD by AZ could work just fine.

Well, more than 60% of the population of Argentina is Italian which is a market that is alot bigger than Uruguay and yet FCO-EZE is not a very busy route. Plus AZ's situation is very bad.

EZE-FCO is Argentina's second busiest European route and thirteenth busiest international route, per passengers carried (May 2017 data). As of Jul 1 it will be served 2x day by AZ and AR, (currently AR is serving it 6x w until Jun 30). On September, AZ is supposed to be upgauging the route to the 77W, 3x w. So it is pretty busy, for the local standards. Now, traditionally, Italian routes from Argentina are not as high yielding as other in the continent such as FRA, CDG, MAD or LHR.

Data source: http://www.eana.com.ar/media/1428/eana- ... o-2017.pdf

What is the aircraft now doing in the saved time for the EZE-MVD-EZE tag-ons? Is it returning to France earlier and doing other flights or just longer sitting on idle at EZE?

A350 wrote:

What is the aircraft now doing in the saved time for the EZE-MVD-EZE tag-ons? Is it returning to France earlier and doing other flights or just longer sitting on idle at EZE?

Stays at EZE for a good 8 hrs aprox. AF returns to Europe from the Americas are timed to arrive at the different connecting banks they operate from CDG.

Also keep in mind that premium paxs favor nighttime flights northbound from deep South America. If this flight would turn around immediately back to CDG it'd arrive there in the middle of the night. A big no no for most paxs to Paris as well as connections.

dcajet wrote:

A350 wrote:

What is the aircraft now doing in the saved time for the EZE-MVD-EZE tag-ons? Is it returning to France earlier and doing other flights or just longer sitting on idle at EZE?

Stays at EZE for a good 8 hrs aprox. AF returns to Europe from the Americas are timed to arrive at the different connecting banks they operate from CDG.

Thanks! In other words, there are no capital costs for the plane for the tag-on.

Is the aircraft a 777-200ER or 777-300ER? If it's a 300, the only possibility for upgauge is a A380 which is a massiv step. But it has very low capital costs

772ER but oftentimes a 77W substitutes it; not sure if it's due to loads or any other operational reason. BA does the same, but in the latter's case it's due to pax loads.

Getting rid of the MVD tag on not only saves the airline the cost of moving that 777 on a 25 minute flight, but it saves on other costs such as crew layovers in Buenos Aires which now can be shortened; they'll do CDG-EZE-CDG only, with no EZE-MVD-EZE tag, although the crew does not stay in MVD overnight (just a couple of hours and back to Buenos Aires).

This tag is probably a victim of Argentina's improving economy. Air France can now fill EZE-CDG with EZE passengers so the cost/benefit balance of tag shifted. On the other hand, it is probably the Brazil routes that need help, so routing passengers through GRU in cooperation with G3 keeps the current frequency at GRU viable.