Delta Pan Am 747 Retrojet & Farewell Tour?

jumbojet · Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:35 pm

XRadar98 wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
Pan Am were the first 747 operator, that is the point here.

Exactly, plus Juan Trippe's role in the developement. It has nothing to do with who bought what or when from another airline. It is a tribute to the Queen.

DL is a very classy airline. I am sure that whatever the final scheme turns out to be, it will be a very awesome tribute. DL has paid homage to Northwest at times but this is not about Northwest. I wonder if there is a farewell tour if paying passengers will be invited at any time?

Has anyone heard if UA plans on any kind of ceremony or their n retro 747/farewell flight?

panampreflight · Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:55 am

kjeld0d wrote:
From the perspective of DL, why would they spend money to celebrate Pan Am? PA was a mismanaged company that failed. DL showed up to the estate sale. Thats about it.

Because Pan Am was the pioneer of Aviation. They trained the U.S. during WWII [they had already been flying for 17 years] basically all the other airlines learned from
Pan Am. U.S. airlines didn't even fly to all the U.S. states, let along outside of the U.S.. They imagined and brought the 747 to reality. That's what was so special about Pan Am.

xjetflyer2001 · Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:10 am

I would rather see it as a half and half, PanAm colors on one side with Delta widget colors on the other side.

32andBelow · Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:12 am

CanadaFair wrote:
Keith2004 wrote:
Most likely outcome is that Delta's last 747 and the last passenger 747 to be flown by a US airline will be flown in Delta's current livery,

Also likely this thread will have several pages of speculation and arguing what with should be UA , PanAm, Northwest, Northwest Orient, 70s Delta....why delta would waste $ on any of this????

Atlas has two pax 747s and will be last US operator of type, or its not considered an airline?

It's not a 121 scheduled airline. Do they still have those? I thought they were leased from and returned to United.

JannEejit · Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:03 am

panampreflight wrote:
kjeld0d wrote:
From the perspective of DL, why would they spend money to celebrate Pan Am? PA was a mismanaged company that failed. DL showed up to the estate sale. Thats about it.

Because Pan Am was the pioneer of Aviation. They trained the U.S. during WWII [they had already been flying for 17 years] basically all the other airlines learned from
Pan Am. U.S. airlines didn't even fly to all the U.S. states, let along outside of the U.S.. They imagined and brought the 747 to reality. That's what was so special about Pan Am.

It's not about celebrating Pan Am (or Northwest) it's not about celebrating any airline. It's about celebrating the Boeing 747, what's so hard to understand here ? ;-)

scotron11 · Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:44 am

XRadar98 wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
Pan Am were the first 747 operator, that is the point here.

Exactly, plus Juan Trippe's role in the developement. It has nothing to do with who bought what or when from another airline. It is a tribute to the Queen.

Yea, and my 1st 747 flight PA100 JFK-LHR. Still remember the "flapping" wings!

VirginFlyer · Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:10 pm

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
I would rather see it as a half and half, PanAm colors on one side with Delta widget colors on the other side.

I like your thinking, but in deference to Northwest being the first 747-400 operator, and now being a part of Delta, perhaps even better would be Pan Am colours on the left hand side, and Northwest on the right, perhaps the original semi-bare-metal livery the 747-400 wore (which those who have been a member of Airliners.net for long enough will remember was also the original aircraft in the header)

V/F

Ryanair01 · Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:09 pm

The first passenger 747 flight was PA1 from JFK to LHR, which today (having been sold by PA to UA and then UA to DL - a move many people missed all be it that DL flew to LGW) is DL401 from JFK to LHR.

So as the first 747 flight is part of Delta's current schedule and with many former Pan Am staff at JFK, LGA and across Europe transferred to DL (all be it that many have probably retired) Delta have some claim to this.

With a lot of nostalgia for Pan Am, it is a good chance for some brand association.

TigerFlyer · Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:50 pm

This is such a flawed concept. It does nothing to advance the Delta brand-- in fact dilutes it. Creates customer confusion, is unjustifiably costly, environmentally unfriendly, and means nothing to anyone but a handful of us aviation afficianados. Richard Anderson would have fired anyone from the marketing department who brought this to him on the spot.

georgiabill · Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:01 pm

I am sure a few would like to see the sun king on the tail as National operated the 747-100

VC10er · Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:02 pm

Didn't someone from PanAm say on the day of doom: "Delta, they love to lie and it shows" Ha!

- in reference to Delta not keeping a promise to cut a deal that would have saved PanAm? I only recall laughing at the remark - not what happened.

panamair · Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:10 pm

Ryanair01 wrote:
The first passenger 747 flight was PA1 from JFK to LHR, which today (having been sold by PA to UA and then UA to DL - a move many people missed all be it that DL flew to LGW) is DL401 from JFK to LHR. .

FYI, the JFK-LHR flight with Pan Am was PA002, not PA001 (Pan Am had even numbers for eastbound flights and odd for westbounds). When Delta started JFK-LGW after purchasing the rights from United, they ran it as DL001 (till then Delta had never had a flight 001, and had also always had even flight numbers for eastbound flights). The DL401 only came into play after DL moved to JFK Terminal 4 and renumbered flights to start with a '4'. Subsequently LHR-JFK became DL001, which incidentally brings things back full circle as Pan Am always had PA001 as LHR-JFK...

Ryanair01 · Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:18 pm

panamair wrote:
Ryanair01 wrote:
The first passenger 747 flight was PA1 from JFK to LHR, which today (having been sold by PA to UA and then UA to DL - a move many people missed all be it that DL flew to LGW) is DL401 from JFK to LHR. .

FYI, the JFK-LHR flight with Pan Am was PA002, not PA001 (Pan Am had even numbers for eastbound flights and odd for westbounds). When Delta started JFK-LGW after purchasing the rights from United, they ran it as DL001 (till then Delta had never had a flight 001, and had also always had even flight numbers for eastbound flights). The DL401 only came into play after DL moved to JFK Terminal 4 and renumbered flights to start with a '4'. Subsequently LHR-JFK became DL001, which incidentally brings things back full circle as Pan Am always had PA001 as LHR-JFK...

Yes that's right, so it was. I wonder if re-enacting that first flight for their final 747 service might get more media attention?

ClipperYankee · Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:47 pm

Just a sidebar: the originally scheduled aircraft for the inaugural flight to LHR had the usual Pratt engine issues of the time and they had to substitute in Clipper Victor, the 747 that went on to perish in Tenerife. Fame and infamy for the same airframe.

bohica · Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:40 am

This showed up on my facebook page a few hours ago. I thought it was very interesting:

Remembering the Pan Am Worldport
3 hrs ·

This is our latest rendering of a United/Pan Am livery.
This one is important because we had a big development today.

We talked on the phone with the United executives in charge of the 747's Retirement celebrations and our proposal will be discussed at their committee meeting next week.

I will be sending several proposals but we believe this one would be the win/win one!

We are going to dedicate all of our efforts towards United now, since they are talking to us, and we are on radio silence with Delta.

To the person who gave us a chance within Delta, you know who you are, we are deeply thankful for the chance, it was definitely much more that we could achieve the last time we asked anything of Delta and that speaks volumes of who you are as a person.

Please keep on sharing the petition's page and keep on signing!

Stay tuned!!

https://www.change.org/p/united-air-lin ... the-boeing…

I couldn't get the picture to post but the concept is a United 744 in the current livery with the Pan Am logo on the tail with the slanted American flag.

catiii · Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:53 am

TigerFlyer wrote:
This is such a flawed concept. It does nothing to advance the Delta brand-- in fact dilutes it. Creates customer confusion, is unjustifiably costly, environmentally unfriendly, and means nothing to anyone but a handful of us aviation afficianados. Richard Anderson would have fired anyone from the marketing department who brought this to him on the spot.

Nah, he wouldn't have. Good theory though.

VirginFlyer · Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:50 am

bohica wrote:
This showed up on my facebook page a few hours ago. I thought it was very interesting:

Remembering the Pan Am Worldport
3 hrs ·

This is our latest rendering of a United/Pan Am livery.
This one is important because we had a big development today.

We talked on the phone with the United executives in charge of the 747's Retirement celebrations and our proposal will be discussed at their committee meeting next week.

I will be sending several proposals but we believe this one would be the win/win one!

We are going to dedicate all of our efforts towards United now, since they are talking to us, and we are on radio silence with Delta.

To the person who gave us a chance within Delta, you know who you are, we are deeply thankful for the chance, it was definitely much more that we could achieve the last time we asked anything of Delta and that speaks volumes of who you are as a person.

Please keep on sharing the petition's page and keep on signing!

Stay tuned!!

https://www.change.org/p/united-air-lin ... the-boeing…

I couldn't get the picture to post but the concept is a United 744 in the current livery with the Pan Am logo on the tail with the slanted American flag.

Here's the direct link to the petition: https://www.change.org/p/united-air-lin ... -am-livery

And here's the image:

I like it! It would be cool to see it with the Pan Am globe on one side of the fin, and an old United logo on the other:

Or perhaps even a Continental logo:

V/F

bohica · Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:03 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
And here's the image:

Thanks.

Edit: Also thanks for fixing the link.

JannEejit · Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:52 am

Having thought about this for a while now, I reckon the best proposal would be for either Delta or United to do their own original 747 livery on their respective aircraft. My gut instinct is that nothing more than a commemorative sticker will be applied by one or the other to an otherwise unaltered standard livery.

TheFlyingDisk · Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:54 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
And here's the image:

I'm afraid it's a bit half baked to be honest. Either have one side in full Pan Am livery & the other in United's current livery or don't do it at all.

I'd think such livery would be fitting as it acknowledges the baton passing from Pan Am to United when UA bought up PA's Pacific, London & European routes.

OB1504 · Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:45 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
I'm afraid it's a bit half baked to be honest.

Would you expect anything more from the airline that basically changed the font on the Continental livery and called it a day?

Btblue · Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:11 pm

bfitzflyer wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
The time to do a Northwest memorial was at the time of the merger. This not about Northwest, it's about remembering the first US 747 operator.

As Delta acquire NW, I think this would be upsetting to a lot of NW employees if they did this. Just my two cents...

I kind of agree with this. It was NW that introduced the 747 to Delta, wasn't it? I mean apart from the few they had in 1970s - NW was the largest operator of which, Delta took over when they merged with NW and I guess Delta have operated longer than the few they did in 1970s.

ual763 · Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:39 pm

I also think at least the main body or fuselage should be painted in the old United friendship one colors, with a PanAm tail.

ual763 · Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:35 pm

ual763 wrote:
I also think at least the main body or fuselage should be painted in the old United friendship one colors, with a PanAm tail.

Correction: Not Friendship One colors, just Friendship paint scheme (Not the rainbow)

VirginFlyer · Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:11 pm

OB1504 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
I'm afraid it's a bit half baked to be honest.

Would you expect anything more from the airline that basically changed the font on the Continental livery and called it a day?

A few thoughts:

This didn't come from United, it came from an individual as part of a call for suggestions by the Remembering the Pan Am Worldport Facebook page on how it could be done.
United is retiring their 747s at the end of October, meaning time is short. A simple solution which can be done with minimal change to the existing paintwork means thay there will be more time for this to be in service, and indeed that there is a greater chance of it being approved at all.
When you look at Pan Am's final scheme, this really isn't too different to that, just without the Pan Am billboard titles, with a grey painted belly in place of the bare metal, and Continental/United's gold pinstripe (which could probably be removed without too much effort).
This group had previously been hoping to get Delta, who will be the final American 747 operator, to do this, but the airline's management went very cold on the idea. On the other hand United have apparently been open to it. If they get wind of the fact that it won't please people unless it is painted in an exact replica of Pan Am's colours with no United branding anywhere, or that people are knocking United for doing this, I imagine that will sink the idea, and the opportunity will be lost for a fitting tribute to the nearly 50 years of service that the 747 has provided. Let's give this a chance to get off the ground, then let them sort out some of the minor intricacies of what exactly it should look like.
Personally, I think the 1970s liveries of Pan Am and United offer a very good opportunity to paint one aircraft in the two of them, one on each side:

On the United side, the gold pinstripe could be painted red, and we'd probably have to settle for a slight inaccuracy in not having the white curve down at the nose; on the Pan Am side it could be deleted. The blue cheat line would be applied on both sides so from front on there wouldn't be a strange discontinuity. The fin would be painted white and get different decals on either side (or paint I guess, whichever is more workable)

V/F

TheFlyingDisk · Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:36 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
When you look at Pan Am's final scheme, this really isn't too different to that, just without the Pan Am billboard titles, with a grey painted belly in place of the bare metal, and Continental/United's gold pinstripe (which could probably be removed without too much effort).

Could they have the Pan Am billboard be decals so that it can be applied quickly? As you said the United livery isn't that different to Pan Am's final livery so they can just strip the United & the cheatline on one side & just stick the decals with minimal paint required.

I'm pretty sure the tail logo would also be decals, right?

JannEejit · Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:47 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
When you look at Pan Am's final scheme, this really isn't too different to that, just without the Pan Am billboard titles, with a grey painted belly in place of the bare metal, and Continental/United's gold pinstripe (which could probably be removed without too much effort).

Could they have the Pan Am billboard be decals so that it can be applied quickly? As you said the United livery isn't that different to Pan Am's final livery so they can just strip the United & the cheatline on one side & just stick the decals with minimal paint required.

I'm pretty sure the tail logo would also be decals, right?

No because this occasion is about linking the first US 747 operator with the final operator(s). Therefore the livery needs to reflect the original Pan Am look and feel, coupled with some semblance of the final Delta and/or United livery. That to me is what this is about conceptually. Not about Northwest or rubbing any former employees noses in it. All other livery suggestions are null and void in terms of this project.

KGRB · Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:54 am

JannEejit wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
No because this occasion is about linking the first US 747 operator with the final operator(s). Therefore the livery needs to reflect the original Pan Am look and feel, coupled with some semblance of the final Delta and/or United livery. That to me is what this is about conceptually. Not about Northwest or rubbing any former employees noses in it. All other livery suggestions are null and void in terms of this project.

But what does Delta and/or United get out of this? Why would they want to take attention away from their own brand (and possibly create confusion among their customers), by paining their aircraft in a Pan Am livery? I doubt this idea will see the light of day at either carrier, but I am in the camp that believes that if Delta paints a 747 in an old livery, it should be Northwest's original delivery scheme, not Pan Am's.

TheFlyingDisk · Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:12 am

KGRB wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

But what does Delta and/or United get out of this? Why would they want to take attention away from their own brand (and possibly create confusion among their customers), by paining their aircraft in a Pan Am livery? I doubt this idea will see the light of day at either carrier, but I am in the camp that believes that if Delta paints a 747 in an old livery, it should be Northwest's original delivery scheme, not Pan Am's.

For United at least the ties to Pan Am is stronger. They bought up Pan Am's routes & assets to expand internationally more quickly.

atypical · Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:24 am

If this is to commemorate the 747 the painting it to any airline livery is missing the point. Painting it to a defunct airline livery is bound to stir up far emotion about the airline than the aircraft. My vote would be to repaint it as the "City of Everett" (N7470) was in 1969. That focuses attention on the aircraft and is a fitting dedication to many airlines lost (but not forgotten) including TW, PA, NW, EA... I understand the City of Everett is in a museum however this would be a passenger flight dedication. IMO as long as the discussion on this board surrounds the PanAm livery and corporate successorship then the discussion really is about airlines. The occasional mention of the aircraft is no more than lip service.

KGRB · Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:03 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
KGRB wrote:
JannEejit wrote:

But what does Delta and/or United get out of this? Why would they want to take attention away from their own brand (and possibly create confusion among their customers), by paining their aircraft in a Pan Am livery? I doubt this idea will see the light of day at either carrier, but I am in the camp that believes that if Delta paints a 747 in an old livery, it should be Northwest's original delivery scheme, not Pan Am's.

For United at least the ties to Pan Am is stronger. They bought up Pan Am's routes & assets to expand internationally more quickly.

Delta bought PA's Atlantic division and United bought PA's Pacific division. I can see how both airlines have "ties" to PA, but I don't see the justification for either airline doing a Pan Am livery on a 747.

Like I said before, Delta's 747s are former NWA aircraft. If there's any retro livery they should be wearing, it's NW's. With that being said, I give it about a 0.01% chance of happening (even though I'd be delighted if it was the case).

atypical wrote:
Painting it to a defunct airline livery is bound to stir up far emotion about the airline than the aircraft.

Indeed. While PA was the first 747 operator, I doubt passengers would understand the significance if they saw a Pan Am-branded aircraft taxi into their gate.

JannEejit · Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:11 pm

They will hardly paint a 747 up in a Pan Am livery, park it at the gate and leave passengers wondering why ? That's what PR departments are for ! ;-)

DfwAussie · Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:03 pm

bohica wrote:
This showed up on my facebook page a few hours ago. I thought it was very interesting:

Remembering the Pan Am Worldport
3 hrs ·

This is our latest rendering of a United/Pan Am livery.
This one is important because we had a big development today.

We talked on the phone with the United executives in charge of the 747's Retirement celebrations and our proposal will be discussed at their committee meeting next week.

I will be sending several proposals but we believe this one would be the win/win one!

We are going to dedicate all of our efforts towards United now, since they are talking to us, and we are on radio silence with Delta.

To the person who gave us a chance within Delta, you know who you are, we are deeply thankful for the chance, it was definitely much more that we could achieve the last time we asked anything of Delta and that speaks volumes of who you are as a person.

Please keep on sharing the petition's page and keep on signing!

Stay tuned!!

https://www.change.org/p/united-air-lin ... the-boeing…

I couldn't get the picture to post but the concept is a United 744 in the current livery with the Pan Am logo on the tail with the slanted American flag.

I saw the rendering on Facebook. It's awful IMO.

Prost · Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:04 pm

I feel for the folks who yearn so strongly for Pan Am, but it's time has passed. Neither United nor Delta have any interest in resurrecting what is essentially a failed carrier.

bfitzflyer · Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:09 am

[
NW was the first operator of the 747-400, if any retro livery should be put on one of the remaining 747-400's by Delta , ONLY NW makes sense.

JannEejit · Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:17 am

Prost wrote:
I feel for the folks who yearn so strongly for Pan Am, but it's time has passed. Neither United nor Delta have any interest in resurrecting what is essentially a failed carrier.

That's not the point of this proposition.

JannEejit · Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:19 am

bfitzflyer wrote:
[
NW was the first operator of the 747-400, if any retro livery should be put on one of the remaining 747-400's by Delta , ONLY NW makes sense.

And neither is this.

bfitzflyer · Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:14 am

JannEejit wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
[
NW was the first operator of the 747-400, if any retro livery should be put on one of the remaining 747-400's by Delta , ONLY NW makes sense.

And neither is this.

So the point is to have delta which essentially the the final nail in pan am's coffin do a tribute for pan am on aircraft that was acquired by Delta in a merger with NW and NW was the first operator of the 747-400. The proposition makes zero sense.

GatorClark · Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:54 am

I've been in contact with the group that is spearheading this campaign/proposal I guess you could call it. And they have informed me that they are generating more steam for this at UA than DL.. At their request, I came up with something that keeps the United name, but still pays what I believe to be a fitting tribute to Pan Am. This is what I have come up with. Like it or hate it, it honestly doesn't bother me either way.

JannEejit · Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:08 am

bfitzflyer wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
[
NW was the first operator of the 747-400, if any retro livery should be put on one of the remaining 747-400's by Delta , ONLY NW makes sense.

And neither is this.

So the point is to have delta which essentially the the final nail in pan am's coffin do a tribute for pan am on aircraft that was acquired by Delta in a merger with NW and NW was the first operator of the 747-400. The proposition makes zero sense.

It makes every sense, point... Pan Am is first US and world passenger 747 operator. Delta and United will be final US (not world) passenger 747 operator. Premise... Paint a 747 in livery or part livery of first US passenger 747 operator to provide visual historical link to both events. Therefore it can only be Pan Am. It's not a tribute to Pan Am, I agree with you on that, but why is the basic premise so hard to understand by so many here ?

Aaron747 · Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:53 am

24Whiskey wrote:
Here's my take on it.

To be a proper PA livery, the engines, pylons and control surfaces should be sooty-filthy

NWAROOSTER · Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:19 pm

Well Delta has retired all their 747-451s. Fifteen to the DESERT and ONE to their museum and that ONLY due to the fact it was the first 747-400 built by Boeing. It wears the currently last Delta livery and will until it fades into oblivion. Delta also kept a DC-9-50 and used one that originally flew for Muse Airlines complete with a Muse registration number. They could of picked one that was purchased new by North Central Airlines and went to Northwest. It is also painted in Delta latest livery.. Delta does not paint aircraft in retro paint liveries unless it is a Delta livery such as the 767 in their museum and the DC-3 that was originally flown by Delta and is also in their museum. Delta has little if any interest in the heritage of ANY of the airlines that are now part of Delta. :old:

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