Bahrain, Egypt and KSA closed their airspace for Qatar

BestWestern · Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:58 am

My travel agent just off the phone with QR. UAE flights will be cancelled. Full refund.

I've had two bookings cancelled this morning due to this toys out of pram situation.

c933103 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:06 am

KTPAFlyer wrote:
I'm going to bet that QR is going to stand its ground. As somebody mentioned earlier, they can either hold out or they can capitulate, but then admit they were supporting the bad guys. The US is actually the one that has the most to lose because if they support the Saudis, then they piss of Qatar which happens to be the location of the largest base in the region. If I was the US, I would side with Qatar because if not, the US now has the impossible task of convincing Qatar that they should let the US pull out Qatar's only bargaining card AND risks strengthening Iran even more. That said, it's a lose lose for the US because if they side with Qatar, then they piss of the Saudis and the rest of the Gulf. Based on empirical evidence, even though Qatar is very vulnerable, it has much more leverage because its situation is mutually favorable to the US if they take Qatar's side vs. siding with the Saudis.

1. Qatar is not taking any ground in the incident, although it can be said that the incident is caused by the general action of the country moving closer to some other countries
2. QR as a code refer to the airline. What kind of ground can the airline hold in such instance?

TWA772LR · Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:21 am

KTPAFlyer wrote:
I'm going to bet that QR is going to stand its ground. As somebody mentioned earlier, they can either hold out or they can capitulate, but then admit they were supporting the bad guys. The US is actually the one that has the most to lose because if they support the Saudis, then they piss of Qatar which happens to be the location of the largest base in the region. If I was the US, I would side with Qatar because if not, the US now has the impossible task of convincing Qatar that they should let the US pull out Qatar's only bargaining card AND risks strengthening Iran even more. That said, it's a lose lose for the US because if they side with Qatar, then they piss of the Saudis and the rest of the Gulf. Based on empirical evidence, even though Qatar is very vulnerable, it has much more leverage because its situation is mutually favorable to the US if they take Qatar's side vs. siding with the Saudis.

You think Trump is going to side with a country that is getting cozy with Iran? The best thing for the US in this particular case is to keep our mouths shut.

CanadaFair · Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:33 am

JoeCanuck wrote:

That will take a lot. Qatar is crazy rich. I lived there for a couple of years. I got to see them build downtown Doha almost overnight. Very small population and they share, with Iran, the biggest gas reserves in the world. They are rolling in it...and unlike the Saudis, they aren't spending billions per day on foreign wars. Gas, (Qatar's main export), didn't take nearly the hit that oil did.

I got to know a lot of Qataris, and they rarely had anything complimentary to say about Saudi. Basically, they want to rule their own universe and refuse to kneel at the feet of the KSA rulers. Saudi, of course, finds that unacceptable.

QR will be given whatever they need to survive...for as long as it needs. It's a short boat ride to Iran or Oman, so food and supplies will not be an issue at all. As well, Pakistan and India are just around the corner. Oman, Kuwait, Iraq, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia...and of course the thorn in KSA's side, Iran...are among the many countries that will more than welcome Qatar commerce.

As well...when people talk about the UAE, they don't seem to realise that it really isn't one, single country. Its 7 Emirates, relatively loosely associated and in this instance, the action is mostly by Abu Dhabi...and not so much Dubai...which has massive trade with Iran and Qatar. Dubai just keeps quiet and keeps on moving money....or the things money can buy. Sure, EK is following along, but it's more about expediency, rather than picking sides.

My bet is that this is going to drag out for quite some time.

PIA offered QR to fly its pax out of Saudi, Bahrain and UAE.

sergegva · Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:40 am

Had a flight DWC-DOH-GVA today morning. They called me in the middle of the night to say it was cancelled and I will be rebooked with Turkish via Istanbul. 1 hour later they called again saying all turkish flights were full and next option will be "maybe tomorrow". I ask them to rebook me with EK directly to GVA. They said it's full. I verified it, the flight was far from full. I Call them again. Answer: sorry we can not book you with EK right now. Advice: book that flight yourself, we will refund you and maybe you are going to get a compensation (won't happen). At DXB, no help at QR desks, just "you have to wait". As I have to be at gva today I finally bought a 800 $ DXB - GVA. My return ticket with QR was 370$. Now sitting at DXB waiting for my flight.

BestWestern · Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:10 am

I was offered TK for one of them. And CX for another.

ahj2000 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:15 am

log0008 wrote:
danj555 wrote:
Why do all the pictures show flights routing around Iraq? It's not part of the ban...

Iraqi (like Syrian airspace) is restricted by most countries due to the on going war.

Would flying through Southern Iraq into Jordan, under Najaf, be safe? Daesh is in the nort, correct? Is flying over Turkish Kurdistan all that safe either? I had thought that Turkey and the Kurds had gotten back into it...

ushermittwoch · Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:33 am

Good thing I have cancelled my vacation in September. I was planning on doing some Gulf state hopping.

Pellegrine · Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:57 am

One thing I'm confused about with this NOTAM:

OIIX TEHERAN (ACC/FIC/FIR)
A1863/17 – DUE TO REGIONAL CRISES IN BAHRAIN AND QATAR THE FOLLOWING TRAFFIC
ORIENTATION SCHEME WILL BE AVBL:
1-TRAFFIC FM QATAR TO ANKARA FIR VIA TEHRAN THE LEVEL AND ROUTE
SCHEME IS:
FL150 UP TO FL190 PROVIDED THAT 20NM SEPARATION
RAGAS-UT430-LAGSA -UL223-TESVA/ALRAM
2-TRAFFIC FM QATAR TO MUSCAT AND KARACHI FIRS, THE LEVEL AND ROUTE
SCHEME IS:
FL150 UP TO FL190 PROVIDED THAT 20NM SEPARATION AND EXPECT
FURTHER CLIMB AFTER KIS
RAGAS-M561-ASVIB (KARACHI FIR)
RAGAS-M561-KHM-NEW FIR (MUSCAT FIR)-BUBAS

3- TRAFFIC EXITING TEHRAN FIR FROM ANKARA TO QATAR FIR , THE LEVEL
AND ROUTE SCHEME IS:
BTN FL240 UP TO FL300 PROVIDED THAT 20NM SEPARATION
ALRAM- UT36-MIDSI
4-TRAFFIC EXITING TEHRAN FIR FM MUSCAT AND KARACHI FIR
TO QATAR FIR , THE LEVEL AND ROUTE SCHEME IS:
BTN FL240 UP TO FL260 PROVIDED THAT 10NM SEPARATION
N312/A453-MIDSI. 06 JUN 00:00 2017 UNTIL 06 JUL 23:59 2017 ESTIMATED. CREATED:
05 JUN 16:15 2017
A1864/17 – OTS FOR TRAFFIC FM ANKARA TO UAE EXCEPT OMAA:
BONAM-L319-RADID-M317-KUPTO-G666-ORSAR. 06 JUN 00:00 2017 UNTIL 06 JUL 23:59
2017 ESTIMATED. CREATED: 05 JUN 16:12 2017

This part:

1-TRAFFIC FM QATAR TO ANKARA FIR VIA TEHRAN THE LEVEL AND ROUTE
SCHEME IS:
FL150 UP TO FL190 PROVIDED THAT 20NM SEPARATION
RAGAS-UT430-LAGSA -UL223-TESVA/ALRAM

Do QR aircraft going DOH-Europe/US/North Africa really have to fly FL150-190 over the whole of Iran? TESVA and ALRAM intersections are on the Iranian/Turkish border.

KTPAFlyer · Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:14 am

n729pa wrote:
But it's a bit hypocritical of the Saudis though. What's the expression about stones and glass houses?

Don't throw stones when you're in a glass house. The Saudis are literally the last people who have any right to accuse Qatar of causing instability. Literally ANYONE else in the region would be more qualified to hold a grudge, but this is one step beyond hypocrisy. If the UAE, Bahrain, Egypt, or Turkey led the charge, it would at least have some legitimate moral basis. While Libya, Yemen, and Syria are far from innocent, even those countries are not as blantantly obvious when it comes to directly funding the enemy as are the Saudis. This crisis is the diplomatic equivalent of a no holds barred pissing match.

sadiqutp · Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:29 am

MillwallSean wrote:
sadiqutp wrote:
OGLOBAL wrote:
here are Iranian terror groups I.E Hezbollah and Hamas

i am not taking side because both of them are worse but i mean let's be honest here

I always cringe when some people throw names and assumptions that are massively inaccurate without any knowledge or background.
Hezbollahis a militant in South Lebanon, and Hamas is militant in Gaza Strip. They do NOT exist in Qatar in any shape or form.
Does Qatar support them? Depends on who you ask

Hmm while not politiscisng the thread. Hamas long time former leader Khalid Mashal is a honorary guest of Qatar. Until the pressure in 2015, Qatar was home to the full Hamas leadership, they were temporary exiled. And as late as two days ago, Qatar gave Hamas a list of 25 individuals of their organisation that should leave to comply with the neighbors pressure. The new leader Ismail Haniyeh lived for years in Qatar before he returned to Gaza in 2016 etc etc and his family still stays in Qatar.
Hamas, a sunni organisation, is aligned with the Muslim Brotherhood, an organistion whom today has its main base in Qatar.
Hamas controlled by Iran? A hardline MB sunni faction controlled by the only theocratic shia republic, thats just plain wrong and well such misunderstandings arenthelpful for those wishing to understand the basics in the ME.

Your reply indicate a good insight into the politics of the region, and I think I would really have a good debate with you about it, but this is not the place. My reply was specifically to counter the belief the person I replied to had about Hamas & Hizboullah having military activities in Qatar and how that might be a threat to freights by the likes UPS and Fedex, which is 100% inaccurate of course. BA flight to DOH continued today as usual for example.
I agree with you that Qatar have had a history of hosting figures from controversial groups in the ME. However, Qatar, and all GCC countries for that matter, would never allow any presence of a groups in their countries outside the frame of hosting them as guests. Ex. what happened in Bahrain in 2014!
As for GCC support for militants all over the ME? I think it's indisputable by this point and it's pretty funny to see them accuse one another

edmaircraft · Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:44 am

Interesting flight paths right now...crazy.

https://www.flightradar24.com/QTR1131/da2d7d1

https://www.flightradar24.com/QTR1332/da26f79

QR1332, KRT-DOH, is usually a little over three hours' flight time, but today it's going to be pushing six hours because of the detour.

c933103 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:25 am

RJ651 from DOH to AMM is still flying over Saudi as normal

c933103 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:31 am

Will/When will Maldives restriction kick in? QR900 still flying over it

LHLX · Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:37 am

So for the time that QR has to fly all those detours...they are a little like EL AL but with modern planes, great seats, and good service

I mean...TLV-BKK nonstop COULD take 7:30 hours, but it's actually close to 11 hours due to the detour.
TLV-BOM could take 4:30 hours but it's close to 7:30 due to the detour EL AL has to fly.

The real difference here is that EL AL never flew to theoretical short routes....QR did until today.

Andy33 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:43 am

c933103 wrote:
RJ651 from DOH to AMM is still flying over Saudi as normal

Why wouldn't it? Airspace restrictions apply to Qatari-registered planes, not those from "neutral" countries such as Jordan.

c933103 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:48 am

Andy33 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
RJ651 from DOH to AMM is still flying over Saudi as normal

Why wouldn't it? Airspace restrictions apply to Qatari-registered planes, not those from "neutral" countries such as Jordan.

Some other countries seems to block that too and SAUDI'SC NOTAM also asked other airlines flying through Saudi to Qatar to request special permission

B747forever · Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:31 am

Looks like QR773 (DOH-GRU) is going to make a fuel stop in ATH.

sadiqutp · Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:55 am

B747forever wrote:
Looks like QR773 (DOH-GRU) is going to make a fuel stop in ATH.

WOW
That's one hell of a detour ! Why not MCT ?

YLWbased · Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:01 am

As signatories to the International Air Services Transit Agreement, Bahrain the UAE can't legally shut off its airspace to fellow signatory Qatar.

YLWbased

danj555 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:03 am

Any word on QR 774 flight? will they make the loop or pit-stop?

tlvflyguy · Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:05 am

sadiqutp wrote:
B747forever wrote:
Looks like QR773 (DOH-GRU) is going to make a fuel stop in ATH.

WOW
That's one hell of a detour ! Why not MCT ?

It might be misleading but going North and West to ATH is actually shorter than East and South through MCT. Also, MCT-GRU is longer than DOH-GRU so a fuel stop will be essentially ineffective.

danj555 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:06 am

also someone check out QR 1407.... It flew straight into Saudi airspace

QF29 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:08 am

Unsurprisingly Emirates is now denying boarding to those traveling on a Qatari passport. I assume this would also start to affect all other airlines operating into the UAE.

tlvflyguy · Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:10 am

danj555 wrote:
also someone check out QR 1407.... It flew straight into Saudi airspace

It's not. Oman is spotty and it lost coverage so FR24 is showing it flying on the Great Circle route to LOS. It will correct itself afterwards.

sadiqutp · Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:11 am

tlvflyguy wrote:
sadiqutp wrote:
B747forever wrote:
Looks like QR773 (DOH-GRU) is going to make a fuel stop in ATH.

WOW
That's one hell of a detour ! Why not MCT ?

It might be misleading but going North and West to ATH is actually shorter than East and South through MCT. Also, MCT-GRU is longer than DOH-GRU so a fuel stop will be essentially ineffective.

Makes sense .. Thnak you

danj555 wrote:
also someone check out QR 1407.... It flew straight into Saudi airspace

Just a glitch because there are no receivers .. It will be corrected later

danj555 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:22 am

So like whats the end game here? Obv this can't go on indefinitely. Lack of over-flights really is the tip of the iceberg.... Can Qatar just pull out of whatever organizations were the problem... or make a big 'I'm sorry' donation to some fund? They gotta get out of this somehow. Or fight back with their own team?

factsonly · Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:22 am

Qatar to Iraq.

Check routing QR462 DOH-ISU (Sulaymaniyah), possibly nothing new:

https://www.flightradar24.com/QTR462/da30600

And QR452 DOH-EBL (Erbil) does the same:

https://www.flightradar24.com/QTR76UR/da30a2c

c933103 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:25 am

YLWbased wrote:
As signatories to the International Air Services Transit Agreement, Bahrain the UAE can't legally shut off its airspace to fellow signatory Qatar.

YLWbased

Israel is not?

c933103 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:31 am

danj555 wrote:
So like whats the end game here? Obv this can't go on indefinitely. Lack of over-flights really is the tip of the iceberg.... Can Qatar just pull out of whatever organizations were the problem... or make a big 'I'm sorry' donation to some fund? They gotta get out of this somehow. Or fight back with their own team?

El Al did this for decades and nothing wrong with them. And Qatar don't even sure about what is the problem causing them to react as such other than some brief idea about might be it is related to things like their position.

qf789 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:41 am

QR871 (PVG-DOH) positioning to DOH after diverting to MCT earlier today

https://www.flightradar24.com/QTR871/da33458

3rdGen · Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:46 am

c933103 wrote:
El Al did this for decades and nothing wrong with them.

But El Al primarily take pax to Israel. Qatar takes pax around the world not to Qatar. And if flight times are extended and people are seriously inconvenienced they will choose another airline. Not to mention that Saudi and the UAE are MAJOR markets for the airline.

c933103 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:25 am

3rdGen wrote:
c933103 wrote:
El Al did this for decades and nothing wrong with them.

But El Al primarily take pax to Israel. Qatar takes pax around the world not to Qatar. And if flight times are extended and people are seriously inconvenienced they will choose another airline. Not to mention that Saudi and the UAE are MAJOR markets for the airline.

Other than GRU that need refueling stop and KRT, LOS at the back of Saudi, the extra time needed for most flights would be insignificant. Even for BEY and ATH that is right at the back of Saudi-Syria-Iraq only takes about 25 minutes (BEY) and 45 minutes (ATH) more to route through Turkey.
More interestingly is the QR400 flight to Jordan that is scheduled depart today UTC 1355 is still scheduled for on time departure with gate assigned.
The problem of losing feeds from the region would be more significant than the routing and fuel cost problem. The inconvenience brought by half hours delay for most flights are trivial compared to customer trust issue on the stability of the region.

Joelatbsl · Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:31 am

Not too long ago Qatar Airways took over four A350-900s from LATAM to cover their current expansion/operation. Could they become surplus to requirements with a number of aircraft coming off the now closed routes should this become a permanent situation? I take it there are mainly single-aisle planes being "freed up" by the Saudi/UAE move, but I am sure that with some shuffling, the fleet situation could be changed a bit ...

bostero2 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:48 am

QR755 from DOH to ATL is going through Iran and Turkey according to FR24

https://www.flightradar24.com/QTR755/da32927

Aesma · Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:55 am

sergegva wrote:
Had a flight DWC-DOH-GVA today morning. They called me in the middle of the night to say it was cancelled and I will be rebooked with Turkish via Istanbul. 1 hour later they called again saying all turkish flights were full and next option will be "maybe tomorrow". I ask them to rebook me with EK directly to GVA. They said it's full. I verified it, the flight was far from full. I Call them again. Answer: sorry we can not book you with EK right now. Advice: book that flight yourself, we will refund you and maybe you are going to get a compensation (won't happen). At DXB, no help at QR desks, just "you have to wait". As I have to be at gva today I finally bought a 800 $ DXB - GVA. My return ticket with QR was 370$. Now sitting at DXB waiting for my flight.

It's understandable that they would not book you on EK. Maybe EK itself isn't allowing them to.

Aesma · Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:04 am

TWA772LR wrote:
KTPAFlyer wrote:
I'm going to bet that QR is going to stand its ground. As somebody mentioned earlier, they can either hold out or they can capitulate, but then admit they were supporting the bad guys. The US is actually the one that has the most to lose because if they support the Saudis, then they piss of Qatar which happens to be the location of the largest base in the region. If I was the US, I would side with Qatar because if not, the US now has the impossible task of convincing Qatar that they should let the US pull out Qatar's only bargaining card AND risks strengthening Iran even more. That said, it's a lose lose for the US because if they side with Qatar, then they piss of the Saudis and the rest of the Gulf. Based on empirical evidence, even though Qatar is very vulnerable, it has much more leverage because its situation is mutually favorable to the US if they take Qatar's side vs. siding with the Saudis.

You think Trump is going to side with a country that is getting cozy with Iran? The best thing for the US in this particular case is to keep our mouths shut.

Trump caused this, he will not be solving it.

bergkampsticket · Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:13 am

Aesma wrote:
sergegva wrote:
Had a flight DWC-DOH-GVA today morning. They called me in the middle of the night to say it was cancelled and I will be rebooked with Turkish via Istanbul. 1 hour later they called again saying all turkish flights were full and next option will be "maybe tomorrow". I ask them to rebook me with EK directly to GVA. They said it's full. I verified it, the flight was far from full. I Call them again. Answer: sorry we can not book you with EK right now. Advice: book that flight yourself, we will refund you and maybe you are going to get a compensation (won't happen). At DXB, no help at QR desks, just "you have to wait". As I have to be at gva today I finally bought a 800 $ DXB - GVA. My return ticket with QR was 370$. Now sitting at DXB waiting for my flight.

It's understandable that they would not book you on EK. Maybe EK itself isn't allowing them to.

That's fine if that's the case but they can't go lying to their passengers about it.

KarelXWB · Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:15 am

As airspace restrictions are now set in place, the picture below is speechless:

c933103 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:29 am

bergkampsticket wrote:
Aesma wrote:
sergegva wrote:
Had a flight DWC-DOH-GVA today morning. They called me in the middle of the night to say it was cancelled and I will be rebooked with Turkish via Istanbul. 1 hour later they called again saying all turkish flights were full and next option will be "maybe tomorrow". I ask them to rebook me with EK directly to GVA. They said it's full. I verified it, the flight was far from full. I Call them again. Answer: sorry we can not book you with EK right now. Advice: book that flight yourself, we will refund you and maybe you are going to get a compensation (won't happen). At DXB, no help at QR desks, just "you have to wait". As I have to be at gva today I finally bought a 800 $ DXB - GVA. My return ticket with QR was 370$. Now sitting at DXB waiting for my flight.

It's understandable that they would not book you on EK. Maybe EK itself isn't allowing them to.

That's fine if that's the case but they can't go lying to their passengers about it.

How would you expect them to be able to book a EK flight for you given they are being cut off by it. Their system would just show it's not working

edu2703 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:38 am

Saudi Arabia revokes all Qatar Airways licenses and closes down all its offices in the kingdom: state news agency

sadiqutp · Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:40 am

General Authority of Civil Aviation (GACA) in KSA announced cancellation of all permits and licences to QR and gives them 48 hours to close their offices. It also canceled permits for all QR employees in KSA
https://gaca.gov.sa/web/ar-sa/news/tran ... tar-_96870

dubaiamman243 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:46 am

Oman Air flight WY668, from Doha to Muscat is taking a detour too

SCQ83 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:47 am

edu2703 wrote:
Saudi Arabia revokes all Qatar Airways licenses and closes down all its offices in the kingdom: state news agency

I guess we will not see Al Maha taking off anytime soon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Maha_Airways

seahawk · Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:52 am

It looks more and more like a prelude to war.

NearMiss · Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:57 am

aircanadaa330 wrote:
NearMiss wrote:
Vladex wrote:

I think he is alluding that QR is leasing several A350's from LATAM.

That, and the fact that they own 10% of the LATAM Group

just out of curiosity, how does this affect LATAM? Is QR pumping money into LATAM?

They're investing in the LATAM Group. And also in the IAG Group.

sadiqutp · Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:57 am

seahawk wrote:
It looks more and more like a prelude to war.

It looks very serious right now, but the prince of Kuwait has been back and forth between KSA and Qatar to reach a resolution. I wouldn't be surprised if everything just magically got resolved like nothing happened

NearMiss · Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:00 am

KarelXWB wrote:
As airspace restrictions are now set in place, the picture below is speechless:

Good God. It's like flying through a hallway.

Midwestindy · Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:53 am

KarelXWB wrote:
As airspace restrictions are now set in place, the picture below is speechless:

Looking at the flight radar, (Which isn't including flights from other airlines),I think there is a significant threat for a mid-air collision

sc1207 · Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:56 am

angelopga wrote:
kelvin933 wrote:
angelopga wrote:
What happens if Bahrain closes their FIR?

Blocking the FIR is an act of war, in legal terms it is the same as blocking a sea port.

Even if it's only to A7- registered planes?

Well yes, it would be considered an act of war against Qatar, the state where A7 planes are registered

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