yv773p wrote:

flymia wrote:

N62NA wrote:

MIA and FLL really don't serve the same markets despite what some have posted here. I live in downtown Miami and the thought of driving the 20 miles up I-95 to FLL is, well, not a very pleasant thing to contemplate.

I live in Downtown Miami and I fly JetBlue every chance I get. Sure, you need to be aware of the time of the flights and traffic but its not bad. An uber is around $30.00. On a weekend its an easy drive and early morning its an easy drive too. Only time its a problem is if you need o be on the road between 3:30pm-7:30pm.

Yes, FLL serves a bit of a different market with people who live in say Kendall and south Miami-Dade will stay away from FLL, while people in Palm Beach and North Broward might stay away from MIA. But in the end, for most travelers, especially JetBlue, its about the cost. If you can save money going to FLL they will do it. I just enjoy B6 100x times more than any other U.S. airline.

N62NA wrote:

I see (except for the 1 person that said he lives an hour from MIA), that all the people who are not full time residents are telling me I'm incorrect.

I'm not. You try living here for years and see if you will avoid the Miami to Ft Lauderdale drive at all costs. It just doesn't make sense for those of us in downtown MIA and south to go up to FLL when MIA is so much closer. It's hassle enough coming up from south of Miami to get to Miami, let alone adding on another 20 miles of bumper to bumper traffic to get to FLL.

And for the person who said "many do" - data please?

As someone who has lived in Miami most of my life, the drive is pretty easy, except during the late afternoon early evening. I often have to go to Downtown Ft. Lauderdale for work in the morning. It takes me no more than 25-30mins.

The drive is very easy but I've never found fares out FLL that much cheaper than MIA to warrant the drive and the extra Uber costs.

I have. Especially to NYC or Boston. My flying is probably 60/40 between MIA and FLL with more flights out of MIA. But if the cost are around the same, and I know I can have a family member take me to the airport, I am picking JetBlue over AA.

cheapgreek wrote:

N62NA wrote:

MIA and FLL really don't serve the same markets despite what some have posted here. I live in downtown Miami and the thought of driving the 20 miles up I-95 to FLL is, well, not a very pleasant thing to contemplate.

20 miles is not much when one considers how many other airports are a long drive for many people. The 20 mile trip takes about 30 minutes.Sounds and looks like the same market to me.

Yes, if you are traveling between 1 and 4 AM!

dfwjim1 wrote:

cheapgreek wrote:

N62NA wrote:

MIA and FLL really don't serve the same markets despite what some have posted here. I live in downtown Miami and the thought of driving the 20 miles up I-95 to FLL is, well, not a very pleasant thing to contemplate.

20 miles is not much when one considers how many other airports are a long drive for many people. The 20 mile trip takes about 30 minutes.Sounds and looks like the same market to me.

Yes, if you are traveling between 1 and 4 AM!

Hardly, outside of afternoon rush hour its a quick trip.

MAH4546 wrote:

dfwjim1 wrote:

cheapgreek wrote:

20 miles is not much when one considers how many other airports are a long drive for many people. The 20 mile trip takes about 30 minutes.Sounds and looks like the same market to me.

Yes, if you are traveling between 1 and 4 AM!

Hardly, outside of afternoon rush hour its a quick trip.

No, it's not.

But I've only lived here full time 14 years, so what do I know?

N62NA wrote:

But I've only lived here full time 14 years, so what do I know?

ANSWER: not airport pax demographic stats. That much is clear.

LAX772LR wrote:

I love how you believe that (the extremely anecdotal conclusions granted by) living in an area, somehow gives you greater insight than people who actually study this type of data for a living... I've just watched at least two of them tell you that you're wrong.

Which, BTW, you are.

Are you not aware that FLL actually pulls more O&D from the entirety of the S. Florida metro than MIA does?
You can see it right on the BTS charts, if you'd like to look for yourself. They're not just coming from Broward.

So show me the data that shows the percentage of people living in downtown Miami and south that use FLL as opposed to MIA. Since you "actually study this type off data for a living."

I'll wait.

N62NA wrote:

Since you "actually study this type off data for a living."

Hmmm, show me where I claimed that *I* do that?
......"I'll wait"

N62NA wrote:

I'll wait.

No, you'll either get off your behind and review here:
https://www.transtats.bts.gov/Tables.asp?DB_ID=125

....or you can continue to look like an abject fool by arguing with people who know what they're talking about, when you clearly do not.

Your choice. I'm good with either.

ucdtim17 wrote:

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:

The same reason United doesn't serve JFK and Jetblue doesn't serve SNA. They have a hub right up the street and its an expensive airport to operate out of.

B6 doesn't serve SNA because they can't operate A320s to JFK off the runway I assume

I believe a 320 can make it, all be it weight restricted. UA sends up to 3 daily 73Gs and 738s on the route.
The real reason, AFAIK, is 1) because they can't get a slot, and because they have a hub a few miles away at LGB and big ops at LAX as well.

dfwjim1 wrote:

cheapgreek wrote:

N62NA wrote:

MIA and FLL really don't serve the same markets despite what some have posted here. I live in downtown Miami and the thought of driving the 20 miles up I-95 to FLL is, well, not a very pleasant thing to contemplate.

20 miles is not much when one considers how many other airports are a long drive for many people. The 20 mile trip takes about 30 minutes.Sounds and looks like the same market to me.

Yes, if you are traveling between 1 and 4 AM!

I do Downtown Miami to Downtown Ft. Lauderdale (which is a few miles north of FLL) at least once a month in the morning rush hour. It takes me no more than 35mins tops.

N62NA wrote:

MAH4546 wrote:

dfwjim1 wrote:

Yes, if you are traveling between 1 and 4 AM!

Hardly, outside of afternoon rush hour its a quick trip.

No, it's not.

But I've only lived here full time 14 years, so what do I know?

Why are you stating incorrect facts. Google map it. Set google to leave Downtown Miami at 8am and see when it says you will arrive at FLL. I set it for a Wednesday, it said 28min-40mins. Oh and right at this moment, if I left my office in Brickell, it would take me 30mins. This is at 2:45pm in the afternoon and on a rainy day.

I don't know what route you take, but again, for someone who has lived here for my whole life other than going to college out of Florida, and someone who does the drive often, its not bad unless its 3:30-7:00pm or so.

I am not saying its an easy drive from Kendall or South Miami. But from Coconut Grove north its not a bad drive other than the afternoon rush. Its just not, and that is a fact. Unless you consider 40mins a horrible drive. And 40mins is towards the longer amount of time it would take, not shorter.

The question of markets is not black and white. Any two nearby airports will have a full spectrum of those who will only use one and those who will be swayed by a certain price difference or schedule offering. For example, I live ten minutes closer to a small airport that is almost always more expensive. I usually choose the small airport, but I recently bought a ticket from the larger one because the fares were three times higher at the small one. I am willing to spend more for convenience, but not $1000. I know people that will use the smaller airport regardless, and those who will never use the smaller one who live right next to it because "there are more options" at the larger one.

Aliqiout wrote:

The question of markets is not black and white. Any two nearby airports will have a full spectrum of those who will only use one and those who will be swayed by a certain price difference or schedule offering. For example, I live ten minutes closer to a small airport that is almost always more expensive. I usually choose the small airport, but I recently bought a ticket from the larger one because the fares were three times higher at the small one. I am willing to spend more for convenience, but not $1000. I know people that will use the smaller airport regardless, and those who will never use the smaller one who live right next to it because "there are more options" at the larger one.

This is correct. But I think a generalization can be made for most travelers. Most travelers are not flying on corporate dime and obviously most are not paying full fare business or first. Most people in an airplane at any given time fly 1-4 times per year and book their trip based on cost and only cost. It is clear that FLL pulls in from the Miami area due to its impressive size of its operations, both domestically and expansion internationally. FLL does not have flights to London, Paris and Dubai because only people near the airport fly there. FLL and MIA IMO amateur opinion are fairly similar to say a LHR LGW type market relationship.

F27500 wrote:

Surely some JFK and BOS (even SJU) routes to Miami would be a good fit for them .. especially since they have such a big following in South Florida already.

Id love to see B6 tackle MIA and give AA a little competition on a few routes. Lots of loyal B6 fliers out there,

Well, no, those wouldn't be a good fit, and it's not because of AA. B6 has "such a big following in South Florida" because of the breadth of service -- destinations & frequency -- they offer at FLL. Moving some of the FLL-JFK/BOS/SJU flights to MIA would reduce the number of flights they could offer in those markets at FLL (since some fraction of their customers would switch airports), so their frequency proposition becomes less attractive. And at MIA, they'd only have a token presence; they're still not an attractive alternative for high-value MIA area customers because they'd only have two or three non-stop destinations served.

If they were to offer flights to MIA from NYC & BOS, it would be about frequent flyer preference in those markets, and for the most part, MIA & FLL are interchangeable for passengers from the Northeast. Arguably, a lot of the migration of retirees from the Northeast has moved north along the coast into Broward, Palm Beach, and St. Lucie Counties as well.

STT757 wrote:

NK could split their current FLL to this:

FLL-
Aguadilla, Akron/Canton, Atlantic City, Baltimore, Cancun , Cleveland, Dallas/Fort Worth, Denver, Detroit, Hartford , Las Vegas, Latrobe/Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, Myrtle Beach, Newark, New Orleans, New York–LaGuardia, Niagara Falls, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Plattsburgh (NY), Punta Cana, San Juan, Santiago, Santo Domingo,

MIA-
Armenia (Colombia), Aruba, Atlanta, Bogotá, Boston, Cartagena, Chicago–O'Hare, Guatemala City, Houston–Intercontinental, Kingston–Norman Manley, Lima, Los Angeles, Managua, Medellin , Montego Bay, Newark, New York–LaGuardia, Orlando, Panama City, Port-au-Prince, St. Maarten, St. Thomas, San José de Costa Rica, San Juan, San Pedro Sula, San Salvador, Tampa

Except that would be a terrible choice for them because they'd lose access to international connecting flows.

N62NA wrote:

MAH4546 wrote:

dfwjim1 wrote:

Yes, if you are traveling between 1 and 4 AM!

Hardly, outside of afternoon rush hour its a quick trip.

No, it's not.

But I've only lived here full time 14 years, so what do I know?

And I've lived there full time 25 years, so what do I know?

Show me data that people in Miami-Dade County don't fly out of FLL. I'll wait.

I've shown plenty of non-disputable facts that show my position is correct. You have proven nothing other than "I hate FLL, I don't fly there, nor do my friends, therefore nobody else in Miami does."

jetmatt777 wrote:

Similar to how UA doesn't serve OAK with SFO across the bay.

UA has a real hub at SFO, though, so it's not the same. B6 at FLL is a focus city with connecting flows, but not all. For example, B6 operates CLE-FLL but runs the flight service too late for it to connect to some international markets. So, I assume it's dependent more on O&D.

At DTW, a more competitive market because of DL's hub, B6 runs the flight in the morning, and likely that flight gets better connecting traffic flows. If B6 were to switch these timings, B6 would struggle on O&D from DTW because of DL. I've wondered if B6 is capped though for how many more flights in can run into FLL for those more optimal timings for connecting flows. Otherwise, why not run CLE-FLL in the morning as well.

JetBlue also serves PBI, in addition to FLL...
For the N/NW Broward suburbs, and even unincorporated southern Palm Beach, PBI and MIA are about the same distance of about 40-45 miles.

ScottB wrote:

Moving some of the FLL-JFK/BOS/SJU flights to MIA would reduce the number of flights they could offer in those markets at FLL (since some fraction of their customers would switch airports), so their frequency proposition becomes less attractive.

I think there is a fine line of where adding service to an alternate airport dilutes the existing airport service. Obviously, B6 could add BOS-MIA without deleting any BOS-FLL frequencies or capacity. Likewise, when it opened in PVD near enough to BOS, it tapped the PVD local market but might have diluted some traffic that would have otherwise just used it at BOS. I'm sure the upcoming WN vs. B6 vs. F9 fare war on PVD-MCO might have some dilution on BOS-MCO, where B6 will be involved in a distraction fare war. When it opened in DAB which it accomodated JFK slot pair for it, it might have diluted traffic on it's JFK-MCO.

My guess is MIA's high fees is reason #1. Then again, it services BOS-IAD but maybe the shorter distance nature of BOS-WAS makes BOS-IAD still stick. It services alternate airports in the Bay Area but does red-eyes back to it's hub and runs flights to LGB, another focus city set from an alternate airport. When it comes to B6, it's still a small airline so the hard rules that might apply to a legacy don't apply and every market is different.

The people who run airlines do have a brain. I am fairly sure B6 would have asked this question to themselves before and ultimately have decided against it for now. As many say, the logical explanation is FLL and their base there. Its most likely not worth the resources and money to serve MIA.

flymia wrote:

Aliqiout wrote:

The question of markets is not black and white. Any two nearby airports will have a full spectrum of those who will only use one and those who will be swayed by a certain price difference or schedule offering. For example, I live ten minutes closer to a small airport that is almost always more expensive. I usually choose the small airport, but I recently bought a ticket from the larger one because the fares were three times higher at the small one. I am willing to spend more for convenience, but not $1000. I know people that will use the smaller airport regardless, and those who will never use the smaller one who live right next to it because "there are more options" at the larger one.

This is correct. But I think a generalization can be made for most travelers. Most travelers are not flying on corporate dime and obviously most are not paying full fare business or first. Most people in an airplane at any given time fly 1-4 times per year and book their trip based on cost and only cost. It is clear that FLL pulls in from the Miami area due to its impressive size of its operations, both domestically and expansion internationally. FLL does not have flights to London, Paris and Dubai because only people near the airport fly there. FLL and MIA IMO amateur opinion are fairly similar to say a LHR LGW type market relationship.

Cost is certainly a very important factor, but very few people care only about cost. My comments were directed to the assertion that FLL and MIA are "exactly the same market". No two airports are exactly the same market, except maybe cities that have seperate exclusive domestic and international airports.

Samrnpage wrote:

The people who run airlines do have a brain. I am fairly sure B6 would have asked this question to themselves before and ultimately have decided against it for now. As many say, the logical explanation is FLL and their base there. Its most likely not worth the resources and money to serve MIA.

Good point, airlines have route planning teams always exploring new cities and routes and it must be in B6's interests not to set up another station a short distance away and dilute yields and FLL is much easier to negotiate than MIA. At FLL, B6 can compete with AA at MIA just fine as it stands. I was supposed from CLT to FLL and was going to meet someone also at FLL on a flight from BOS when last minute I was put on a flight to MIA. I called my friend and told him I was rerouted to MIA, he said it was a short drive from FLL to MIA to pick us up.

MAH4546 wrote:

And I've lived there full time 25 years, so what do I know?

Show me data that people in Miami-Dade County don't fly out of FLL. I'll wait.

I've shown plenty of non-disputable facts that show my position is correct. You have proven nothing other than "I hate FLL, I don't fly there, nor do my friends, therefore nobody else in Miami does."

Do you live here NOW?

Anyway, I already asked for someone who apparently "knows" to post the data that apparently proves.... something.

N62NA wrote:

MAH4546 wrote:

And I've lived there full time 25 years, so what do I know?

Show me data that people in Miami-Dade County don't fly out of FLL. I'll wait.

I've shown plenty of non-disputable facts that show my position is correct. You have proven nothing other than "I hate FLL, I don't fly there, nor do my friends, therefore nobody else in Miami does."

Do you live here NOW?

Anyway, I already asked for someone who apparently "knows" to post the data that apparently proves.... something.

I still live in Miami for a good chunk of the year. It's an easy drive; I've done it plenty of times.

You have yet to be able to show any proof that they are not the same market. I have shown numerous items of proof it is.

jumbojet wrote:

catiii wrote:

jumbojet wrote:

But B6 actually has higher fares than the legacy airlines so with that logic, they should be able to afford MIA.

Another falsehood from you. It only took you two posts?

Go comp your fan favorite DL's fares to B6 then come talk to me. Start with JFK-LAX/SFO, and walk back from there.

Oh, I have. JetBlue is a complete and total ripoff. Let me please clarify what I previously said. JetBlue normally has higher prices for the same route pair that its rivals have. And as of late, JetBlue cant even run a reliable operation. With their near dead to last monthly on-time rankings, they should be giving flights away,

And yet you can not provide specific examples where, on average, JetBlue has higher fares than your fan fave Delta.

And operationally, shall we delve into Delta's 5 day blue sky meltdown, where Ed was at the Masters and then at the Ritz in Palm Beach?

MAH4546 wrote:

N62NA wrote:

MAH4546 wrote:

And I've lived there full time 25 years, so what do I know?

Show me data that people in Miami-Dade County don't fly out of FLL. I'll wait.

I've shown plenty of non-disputable facts that show my position is correct. You have proven nothing other than "I hate FLL, I don't fly there, nor do my friends, therefore nobody else in Miami does."

Do you live here NOW?

Anyway, I already asked for someone who apparently "knows" to post the data that apparently proves.... something.

I still live in Miami for a good chunk of the year. It's an easy drive; I've done it plenty of times.

You have yet to be able to show any proof that they are not the same market. I have shown numerous items of proof it is.

You have shown no proof. Give me the percentage of people who live in downtown Miami or south of downtown Miami who use FLL.

It really is a simple request.

N62NA wrote:

MAH4546 wrote:

N62NA wrote:

Do you live here NOW?

Anyway, I already asked for someone who apparently "knows" to post the data that apparently proves.... something.

I still live in Miami for a good chunk of the year. It's an easy drive; I've done it plenty of times.

You have yet to be able to show any proof that they are not the same market. I have shown numerous items of proof it is.

You have shown no proof. Give me the percentage of people who live in downtown Miami or south of downtown Miami who use FLL.

It really is a simple request.

I doubt those exact numbers exist. But numbers for the region at large do. And simply looking at the airlines and destinations shows the fact we are pointing out. FLL and MIA are one of the same market.

Also, I like how you are focusing on some people, but ignore your neighbors on this forum that are proving your own personal preference, that you want to think is a fact, wrong.

flymia wrote:

N62NA wrote:

MAH4546 wrote:

I still live in Miami for a good chunk of the year. It's an easy drive; I've done it plenty of times.

You have yet to be able to show any proof that they are not the same market. I have shown numerous items of proof it is.

You have shown no proof. Give me the percentage of people who live in downtown Miami or south of downtown Miami who use FLL.

It really is a simple request.

I doubt those exact numbers exist. But numbers for the region at large do. And simply looking at the airlines and destinations shows the fact we are pointing out. FLL and MIA are one of the same market.

Also, I like how you are focusing on some people, but ignore your neighbors on this forum that are proving your own personal preference, that you want to think is a fact, wrong.

Nah, I'm not ignoring you.

However there are claims being made and the people making those claims allege they are backed up by facts "and people who study this for a living." So, show the facts (not directing that at you, rather, I'm directing it at them).

There was a similar debate years ago here where claims were made that the majority of flyers in Manhattan use EWR. I maintained that it simply was not true.

Then a Port Authority study came out that showed... the majority of Manhattan originating passengers do NOT use EWR.

So I've been down this road before.

N62NA wrote:

Anyway, I already asked for someone who apparently "knows" to post the data that apparently proves.... something.

.....so you're just going to pretend that Reply #57 doesn't exist?

GatorClark wrote:

N62NA wrote:

MIA and FLL really don't serve the same markets despite what some have posted here. I live in downtown Miami and the thought of driving the 20 miles up I-95 to FLL is, well, not a very pleasant thing to contemplate.

Tri-Rail. Stops at both MIA and FLL.. FLL has a free shuttle connecting you to the train station. Cheaper than gas as well.. Brightline will also be starting service between MIA-FLL-WPB this year.. and all the way to Orlando not long after. Definitely less headache than I-95. I live only an hour from MIA.

FYI about Brightline...Their service in South Florida (besides the Orlando run) will be downtown Miami to downtown Fort Lauderdale to downtown West Palm on the FEC line. Other than a future direct-access pedestrian walkway to the Metrorail station a few blocks away from the Miami station (which can take you to MIA), it won't really be conducive for inter-city airport connections.

As for Tri-Rail, it is my personal opinion (and experience in my former position within the realm of public safety) that due to the large number of grade-crossings in the South Florida region, all it takes is one careless motorist going around a crossing gate scratching the paint on a locomotive...or one suicidal pedestrian even between crossings (the number of such occurrences that go unreported in the news media would probably make the average person nauseous)...to bring the entire rail operation through that particular vicinity to a halt for several hours and force through-passengers onto busses. If I had an outbound flight to catch, I would not want to attempt to rely on Tri-Rail...not due to their operation, but because so many people in the area either fail to understand that the train "always wins", or hope for just that.

I just love the pissy match about who knows more about Miami demographics and driving distance to FLL.....it's delicious and comical! Anyway, why dilute loads and possibly yields out of FLL? The reality is if the price is good enough, the target audience will drive or find a way from Miami to FLL so why bother.

QueenoftheSkies wrote:

I just love the pissy match about who knows more about Miami demographics and driving distance to FLL.....it's delicious and comical!

Pretty much.

As for whether they are A) one distinct market, B) two separate markets, or C) all of the above, I'm going to settle this right now with one word:

Emirates.

I very well think a token B6 presence at MIA is justifiable. B6 has primary and accompanying secondary presences in the NYC, Boston, DC, LA, and SF metro markets.

NYC - JFK primary, LGA/EWR/SWF/HPN secondary
Boston - BOS primary, PVD/ORH secondary
DC - DCA primary, IAD/BWI secondary
LA - LGB/LAX primary, BUR secondary
SF - SFO primary, OAK/SJC secondary

South Florida stands out in that FLL is the primary, and PBI is the secondary, but it ignores the busiest airport in the region - MIA. This doesn't apply to any of the other 5 metro areas identified.

There is a sizable population that prefers MIA over FLL. B6 could run a handful of flights to JFK, BOS, and DCA and do just fine. It would bolster its popularity with its current South Florida customer base, and would provide more choices for loyalists in the Northeast.

LAX772LR wrote:

N62NA wrote:

Anyway, I already asked for someone who apparently "knows" to post the data that apparently proves.... something.

.....so you're just going to pretend that Reply #57 doesn't exist?

The link you provided does not answer the question I posed.

There is no right or wrong in JB is in Miami or not. They probably would do very nicely flying to New York and Boston from MIA. They could also support international airlines they support at JFK, BOS and LAX. They made a business decision not to be in MIA and be where all the LCC airlines are in FLL. There is no accident why Spirit, JB and Southwest have their South Florida operations in FLL.

More domestic passengers flying to Florida fly through FLL then MIA. MIA's core business is not the flyer to New York but the international passenger which is flying to New York but connecting in Miami.

N62NA wrote:

flymia wrote:

N62NA wrote:

You have shown no proof. Give me the percentage of people who live in downtown Miami or south of downtown Miami who use FLL.

It really is a simple request.

I doubt those exact numbers exist. But numbers for the region at large do. And simply looking at the airlines and destinations shows the fact we are pointing out. FLL and MIA are one of the same market.

Also, I like how you are focusing on some people, but ignore your neighbors on this forum that are proving your own personal preference, that you want to think is a fact, wrong.

Nah, I'm not ignoring you.

However there are claims being made and the people making those claims allege they are backed up by facts "and people who study this for a living." So, show the facts (not directing that at you, rather, I'm directing it at them).

There was a similar debate years ago here where claims were made that the majority of flyers in Manhattan use EWR. I maintained that it simply was not true.

Then a Port Authority study came out that showed... the majority of Manhattan originating passengers do NOT use EWR.

So I've been down this road before.

The problem is you claim that no one goes from Miami to FLL, and you know this based off your years living in Miami and others who say its that FLL market does include MIA don't know anything because they don't live in Miami.

Yet here I am, a person who lives in Miami and goes to FLL all the time. The drive is not horrendous at all, as long as you avoid the afternoon rush. A morning flight out of FLL is an easy flight to get to from Miami.

Your own personal anecdote does not mean its the fact for everyone in the area. That is the point I am trying to make. What the stats are, I am not sure. What I do know, is look at the airlines and destinations out of FLL. Its obvious FLL takes in passengers from all over Miami-Dade County.


Anyway, I hope B6 one day starts some MIA flights, I doubt they ever will, but I would like it. B6 is always my preferred airline.

flymia wrote:

N62NA wrote:

flymia wrote:

I doubt those exact numbers exist. But numbers for the region at large do. And simply looking at the airlines and destinations shows the fact we are pointing out. FLL and MIA are one of the same market.

Also, I like how you are focusing on some people, but ignore your neighbors on this forum that are proving your own personal preference, that you want to think is a fact, wrong.

Nah, I'm not ignoring you.

However there are claims being made and the people making those claims allege they are backed up by facts "and people who study this for a living." So, show the facts (not directing that at you, rather, I'm directing it at them).

There was a similar debate years ago here where claims were made that the majority of flyers in Manhattan use EWR. I maintained that it simply was not true.

Then a Port Authority study came out that showed... the majority of Manhattan originating passengers do NOT use EWR.

So I've been down this road before.

The problem is you claim that no one goes from Miami to FLL, and you know this based off your years living in Miami and others who say its that FLL market does include MIA don't know anything because they don't live in Miami.

Yet here I am, a person who lives in Miami and goes to FLL all the time. The drive is not horrendous at all, as long as you avoid the afternoon rush. A morning flight out of FLL is an easy flight to get to from Miami.

Your own personal anecdote does not mean its the fact for everyone in the area. That is the point I am trying to make. What the stats are, I am not sure. What I do know, is look at the airlines and destinations out of FLL. Its obvious FLL takes in passengers from all over Miami-Dade County.


Anyway, I hope B6 one day starts some MIA flights, I doubt they ever will, but I would like it. B6 is always my preferred airline.

I will clarify: Most people who live in downtown MIA and south do not view FLL as being in the same market as MIA and thus do not use FLL.

I know you haven't said that there's "evidence" and "statistics" that say otherwise, but I have given those who have made those claims ample opportunity to present their evidence. So far... nada.

N62NA wrote:

I will clarify: Most people who live in downtown MIA and south do not view FLL as being in the same market as MIA and thus do not use FLL.

And not everyone using MIA lives in downtown Miami or south. B6 evidently feels the number of people in the area who would never consider flying from FLL is not enough to warrant servicing MIA.

Considering they are hardly the only airline to select (or primarily select) one airport over the other B6 is not alone in their thinking.

N62NA wrote:

The link you provided does not answer the question I posed.

Oh, it most certainly does.

You're just (1) too much of a lazy slap to simply click the lead in-links, and (2) using the fact that no one wants to do that work for you, in order to continue wallowing in your ignorance unabated.

It's rather transparent behavior ya know...

N62NA wrote:

flymia wrote:

N62NA wrote:

Nah, I'm not ignoring you.

However there are claims being made and the people making those claims allege they are backed up by facts "and people who study this for a living." So, show the facts (not directing that at you, rather, I'm directing it at them).

There was a similar debate years ago here where claims were made that the majority of flyers in Manhattan use EWR. I maintained that it simply was not true.

Then a Port Authority study came out that showed... the majority of Manhattan originating passengers do NOT use EWR.

So I've been down this road before.

The problem is you claim that no one goes from Miami to FLL, and you know this based off your years living in Miami and others who say its that FLL market does include MIA don't know anything because they don't live in Miami.

Yet here I am, a person who lives in Miami and goes to FLL all the time. The drive is not horrendous at all, as long as you avoid the afternoon rush. A morning flight out of FLL is an easy flight to get to from Miami.

Your own personal anecdote does not mean its the fact for everyone in the area. That is the point I am trying to make. What the stats are, I am not sure. What I do know, is look at the airlines and destinations out of FLL. Its obvious FLL takes in passengers from all over Miami-Dade County.


Anyway, I hope B6 one day starts some MIA flights, I doubt they ever will, but I would like it. B6 is always my preferred airline.

I will clarify: Most people who live in downtown MIA and south do not view FLL as being in the same market as MIA and thus do not use FLL.

I know you haven't said that there's "evidence" and "statistics" that say otherwise, but I have given those who have made those claims ample opportunity to present their evidence. So far... nada.

All one has to do is look at a map and see the close proximity of both airports. I am sure some from the Miami area use FLL. No one can claim to know the number or percentage of flyers from Miami who use FLL and visa-versa. Its gotten to be a silly back and forth exchange of personal views. Polls are not taken to chart where people choose to fly from and saying I know some who who fly from MIA or FLL in meaningless. Less than an hour separate the two airports and B6 has the market covered.

cheapgreek wrote:

N62NA wrote:

flymia wrote:

The problem is you claim that no one goes from Miami to FLL, and you know this based off your years living in Miami and others who say its that FLL market does include MIA don't know anything because they don't live in Miami.

Yet here I am, a person who lives in Miami and goes to FLL all the time. The drive is not horrendous at all, as long as you avoid the afternoon rush. A morning flight out of FLL is an easy flight to get to from Miami.

Your own personal anecdote does not mean its the fact for everyone in the area. That is the point I am trying to make. What the stats are, I am not sure. What I do know, is look at the airlines and destinations out of FLL. Its obvious FLL takes in passengers from all over Miami-Dade County.


Anyway, I hope B6 one day starts some MIA flights, I doubt they ever will, but I would like it. B6 is always my preferred airline.

I will clarify: Most people who live in downtown MIA and south do not view FLL as being in the same market as MIA and thus do not use FLL.

I know you haven't said that there's "evidence" and "statistics" that say otherwise, but I have given those who have made those claims ample opportunity to present their evidence. So far... nada.

All one has to do is look at a map and see the close proximity of both airports. I am sure some from the Miami area use FLL. No one can claim to know the number or percentage of flyers from Miami who use FLL and visa-versa. Its gotten to be a silly back and forth exchange of personal views. Polls are not taken to chart where people choose to fly from and saying I know some who who fly from MIA or FLL in meaningless. Less than an hour separate the two airports and B6 has the market covered.

While it's not publicly available, airlines do know this info because they can simply track zip codes of their passengers, amongst other demographic info received from simply booking a ticket. And because airlines know, matter of fact, despite what some people might want to claim, that MIA and FLL largely serve the same market, they act appropriately. Examples of this include American Airlines matching a Spirit Airlines FLL sale, American Airlines resuming MIA-SLC just after jetBlue announced FLL-SLC, Norwegian advertising service to Fort Lauderdale as "Miami," etc., etc. If they were not the same market, airlines wouldn't act like this. Some people value their time too much and won't travel between the two cities. Most passengers don't value their time that much. And this applies elsewhere too, where airports like SWF and PVD act as alternatives to New York and Boston, respectively, when they even far more separated.

MAH4546 wrote:

cheapgreek wrote:

N62NA wrote:

I will clarify: Most people who live in downtown MIA and south do not view FLL as being in the same market as MIA and thus do not use FLL.

I know you haven't said that there's "evidence" and "statistics" that say otherwise, but I have given those who have made those claims ample opportunity to present their evidence. So far... nada.

All one has to do is look at a map and see the close proximity of both airports. I am sure some from the Miami area use FLL. No one can claim to know the number or percentage of flyers from Miami who use FLL and visa-versa. Its gotten to be a silly back and forth exchange of personal views. Polls are not taken to chart where people choose to fly from and saying I know some who who fly from MIA or FLL in meaningless. Less than an hour separate the two airports and B6 has the market covered.

While it's not publicly available, airlines do know this info because they can simply track zip codes of their passengers, amongst other demographic info received from simply booking a ticket. And because airlines know, matter of fact, despite what some people might want to claim, that MIA and FLL largely serve the same market, they act appropriately. Examples of this include American Airlines matching a Spirit Airlines FLL sale, American Airlines resuming MIA-SLC just after jetBlue announced FLL-SLC, Norwegian advertising service to Fort Lauderdale as "Miami," etc., etc. If they were not the same market, airlines wouldn't act like this. Some people value their time too much and won't travel between the two cities. Most passengers don't value their time that much. And this applies elsewhere too, where airports like SWF and PVD act as alternatives to New York and Boston, respectively, when they even far more separated.

+1

Airline behavior speaks for itself.

There will always be niches of individuals within large markets who have variousness preferences, and that's fine. But at the end of the day, the multi-billion dollar enterprises putting their capital on the line are probably a better indicator of the bounds of a market.

Beyond aviation, there are countless examples of how and why it's appropriate to think about South Florida as a single economic region, albeit with internal variations. Media markets, regional planning areas -- the list goes on and on.

LAX772LR wrote:

N62NA wrote:

The link you provided does not answer the question I posed.

Oh, it most certainly does.

You're just (1) too much of a lazy slap to simply click the lead in-links, and (2) using the fact that no one wants to do that work for you, in order to continue wallowing in your ignorance unabated.

It's rather transparent behavior ya know...

Your tone is rather nasty and personal.

jetbluefan1 wrote:

I very well think a token B6 presence at MIA is justifiable. B6 has primary and accompanying secondary presences in the NYC, Boston, DC, LA, and SF metro markets.

NYC - JFK primary, LGA/EWR/SWF/HPN secondary
Boston - BOS primary, PVD/ORH secondary
DC - DCA primary, IAD/BWI secondary
LA - LGB/LAX primary, BUR secondary
SF - SFO primary, OAK/SJC secondary

South Florida stands out in that FLL is the primary, and PBI is the secondary, but it ignores the busiest airport in the region - MIA. This doesn't apply to any of the other 5 metro areas identified.

There is a sizable population that prefers MIA over FLL. B6 could run a handful of flights to JFK, BOS, and DCA and do just fine. It would bolster its popularity with its current South Florida customer base, and would provide more choices for loyalists in the Northeast.

Thank you! You're the first one who agreed with me! (And i'd throw in a couple MIA-SJU turns too!)

N62NA wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

N62NA wrote:

The link you provided does not answer the question I posed.

You're just (1) too much of a lazy slap to simply click the lead in-links, and (2) using the fact that no one wants to do that work for you, in order to continue wallowing in your ignorance unabated.

Your tone is rather nasty and personal.

And that changes the truth of the assertion how, exactly?

Again, you were given the link to the BTS tables, i.e. the OFFICAL RECORDS for this type of data; yet instead of simply clicking the respective links for FLL and MIA, then comparing them side-by-side..... you ignored their existence, and continued pretending that no one was showing you information to contradict your ridiculous claims here.

I'd be remiss if I didn't point that out.

F27500 wrote:

Thank you! You're the first one who agreed with me!

Meh, I'd be shocked if B6 doesn't enter MIA in the next decade... it's just that entering into an additional gateway at a metro where they're already one of the dominant carriers, isn't a priority for them now.

After their TATL ops are up and running, and as FLL continues to max out, I'd be surprised if they don't do it. Just that they don't feel like they're really missing out on anything of significance at this point.

To me, the most interesting point, is who blinks first: WN, NK, or B6?

STT757 wrote:

There were reports of NK looking at moving part of their FLL operation to MIA, with a three way fight between B6, NK and WN they are running out of room. At some point it might make sense for NK or B6 to look to MIA, I seriously doubt WN as they have the resources to endure a protracted battle at FLL. If I had to speculate, I would say it made more sense for NK to move part of their operation to MIA.

NK could split their current FLL to this:

FLL-
Aguadilla, Akron/Canton, Atlantic City, Baltimore, Cancun , Cleveland, Dallas/Fort Worth, Denver, Detroit, Hartford , Las Vegas, Latrobe/Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, Myrtle Beach, Newark, New Orleans, New York–LaGuardia, Niagara Falls, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Plattsburgh (NY), Punta Cana, San Juan, Santiago, Santo Domingo,

MIA-
Armenia (Colombia), Aruba, Atlanta, Bogotá, Boston, Cartagena, Chicago–O'Hare, Guatemala City, Houston–Intercontinental, Kingston–Norman Manley, Lima, Los Angeles, Managua, Medellin , Montego Bay, Newark, New York–LaGuardia, Orlando, Panama City, Port-au-Prince, St. Maarten, St. Thomas, San José de Costa Rica, San Juan, San Pedro Sula, San Salvador, Tampa

That would be a pretty good way for Spirit to be absolutely wrecked by AA, considering that they'd be in direct competition on all but one route (FLL/MIA-AXM). Plus, splitting the operation like that would almost completely eliminate any connection opportunities between Latin America/the Caribbean and domestic destinations.

Frontier beat Spirit to the punch at MIA as far as ULCCs go.

N62NA wrote:

I will clarify: Most people who live in downtown MIA and south do not view FLL as being in the same market as MIA and thus do not use FLL.

I know you haven't said that there's "evidence" and "statistics" that say otherwise, but I have given those who have made those claims ample opportunity to present their evidence. So far... nada.

Do you have a source for your claim that "most people" don't consider FLL an alternate to MIA? You're ignoring BTS statistics in favor of your own unsubstantiated opinion.

I live much closer to MIA and even work there, yet I'll gladly fly out of FLL if it's cheaper, and I'd rather drive to FLL than downtown Miami any day of the week, and I say that as a lifelong resident of Miami.

FLL can pull domestic travelers from as far south as Homestead just like MIA can pull international travelers from as far north as Palm Beach. A similar comparison, as others have mentioned, is JFK versus EWR. I personally don't like flying into EWR because it's a $13 train ride on NJ Transit versus $7.75 for the AirTrain and subway from JFK, but it's undoubtedly a New York area airport and I'll fly there if the price is right.

LAX772LR wrote:

To me, the most interesting point, is who blinks first: WN, NK, or B6?

Spirit inaugurated MIA-FLL service earlier this evening!

(weather diversion)

OB1504 wrote:

STT757 wrote:

Spirit inaugurated MIA-FLL service earlier this evening!

For those that have to get from one market to the other.

I think JetBlue thinks FLL sources Miami passengers:
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/restaurant ... le-9398608
The Lincoln Road staple was selected as one of five artisan ice-cream makers to participate in the airline’s new locally sourced ice-cream experience on Mint flights.

KFLLCFII wrote:

OB1504 wrote:

STT757 wrote:

Spirit inaugurated MIA-FLL service earlier this evening!

For those that have to get from one market to the other.

That say's it all.

KFLLCFII wrote:

FYI about Brightline...Their service in South Florida (besides the Orlando run) will be downtown Miami to downtown Fort Lauderdale to downtown West Palm on the FEC line. Other than a future direct-access pedestrian walkway to the Metrorail station a few blocks away from the Miami station (which can take you to MIA), it won't really be conducive for inter-city airport connections.

I was under the impression, though I could be wrong, that when Brightline's "Miami Central" Station as they call it is completely finished, it will have a metro rail connection into the airport. But you do have a point.that is a minimum three connections (car to brightline, brightline to metrorail, metrorail to airport) And I can understand why people, especially those with luggage, would rather not go through the hassle.

GatorClark wrote:

KFLLCFII wrote:

FYI about Brightline...Their service in South Florida (besides the Orlando run) will be downtown Miami to downtown Fort Lauderdale to downtown West Palm on the FEC line. Other than a future direct-access pedestrian walkway to the Metrorail station a few blocks away from the Miami station (which can take you to MIA), it won't really be conducive for inter-city airport connections.

I was under the impression, though I could be wrong, that when Brightline's "Miami Central" Station as they call it is completely finished, it will have a metro rail connection into the airport. But you do have a point.that is a minimum three connections (car to brightline, brightline to metrorail, metrorail to airport) And I can understand why people, especially those with luggage, would rather not go through the hassle.

Right. If they're in South Florida and they're going to drive to the West Palm or Fort Lauderdale Brightline station to catch a flight out of MIA, it would make more sense to drive to the nearest Tri-Rail station instead (only ½-mile and 1½ miles away, respectively), which brings travelers right into the MIA Intermodal Center where Metrorail also drops off, than to take Brightline into downtown Miami and then have to transfer to Metrorail...Not to mention that the cost of Tri-Rail to MIA will most likely be cheaper than Brightline to downtown Miami, and then you'll still have to pay for Metrorail.

On the point about Downtown Miami station co-location, it would make sense to assume both Metrorail and Brightline meet at the same spot, given that both utilize the original FEC Railway right-of-way and station easement...But that's just not the way it exactly worked out:



To help remedy that incongruity, This article describes the aerial easement that was recently approved by the city in order to construct "an elevated pedestrian connection between the [Brightline station] and the adjacent Government Center [Metrorail] Station".