Emirates has retired its first 777-300ER. Its going to be leased to VIM Avia:
http://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb.m ... av4&page=3

na wrote:

Emirates has retired its first 777-300ER. Its going to be leased to VIM Avia:
http://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb.m ... av4&page=3

Twelve years old. Right on schedule.

MO11 wrote:

na wrote:

Emirates has retired its first 777-300ER. Its going to be leased to VIM Avia:
http://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb.m ... av4&page=3

Twelve years old. Right on schedule.

And let AerCap handle the heavy check. This seems to be a favorite strategy for Ryanair as well, sell to Avolon (formerly CIT Aerospace) at first D check and place the cost on the new owner.

I would've expected -EBA,B,C to go first guess D has operated far more cycles.

EK413

They don't always go in alphabetical order... maybe different leading companies.

I don't think the first CX 77W to go will be the oldest.

MO11 wrote:
na wrote:
Emirates has retired its first 777-300ER. Its going to be leased to VIM Avia:
http://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb.m ... av4&page=3


Twelve years old. Right on schedule.

And let AerCap handle the heavy check. This seems to be a favorite strategy for Ryanair as well, sell to Avolon (formerly CIT Aerospace) at first D check and place the cost on the new owner.

Effectively EK will have paid for the D check in their lease costs. The lease rate is not just a simple time charge. It is a combination of time, hours and cycles. The original lease fee will have been set to a maximum number of cycles and hours. Returning an aircraft in excess of these will trigger a penalty. This potential penalty will play a part in determining the order airlines return their aircraft to the lessor.

tullamarine wrote:

MO11 wrote:
na wrote:
Emirates has retired its first 777-300ER. Its going to be leased to VIM Avia:
http://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb.m ... av4&page=3


Twelve years old. Right on schedule.

And let AerCap handle the heavy check. This seems to be a favorite strategy for Ryanair as well, sell to Avolon (formerly CIT Aerospace) at first D check and place the cost on the new owner.

Effectively EK will have paid for the D check in their lease costs. The lease rate is not just a simple time charge. It is a combination of time, hours and cycles. The original lease fee will have been set to a maximum number of cycles and hours. Returning an aircraft in excess of these will trigger a penalty. This potential penalty will play a part in determining the order airlines return their aircraft to the lessor.

Thank you for your input, I learn some new stuff today. Keep it up!

itisi wrote:

They don't always go in alphabetical order... maybe different leading companies.

I don't think the first CX 77W to go will be the oldest.

EK have different configurations too; midhaul and longhaul subfleets with lower and higher density layouts in those fleets.

Without going digging into fleet lists I expect EBD is one that did more midhaul flying and has more cycles because of that. The longhaul ones have enhanced crew rest and other features. Some of the aircraft also have low density cabins including First; others are fitted out with low-J type cabins and are people huggers that pound away on their undercarriage.

What I'm getting at (probably badly) is that at EK it's a complicated fleet and pretty unpredictable to us outsiders which might be first up for a heavy visit and lessor return.

itisi wrote:

They don't always go in alphabetical order... maybe different leading companies.

I don't think the first CX 77W to go will be the oldest.

Most of the 5 Cathay 77Ws leaving the fleet are the oldest in the fleet.

Channex757 wrote:

itisi wrote:

They don't always go in alphabetical order... maybe different leading companies.

I don't think the first CX 77W to go will be the oldest.

EK have different configurations too; midhaul and longhaul subfleets with lower and higher density layouts in those fleets.

Without going digging into fleet lists I expect EBD is one that did more midhaul flying and has more cycles because of that. The longhaul ones have enhanced crew rest and other features. Some of the aircraft also have low density cabins including First; others are fitted out with low-J type cabins and are people huggers that pound away on their undercarriage.

What I'm getting at (probably badly) is that at EK it's a complicated fleet and pretty unpredictable to us outsiders which might be first up for a heavy visit and lessor return.

You are correct, this one had a 2 class configuration, 42C/386Y and it mostly flew midhaul to Europe and Asia.

So this is the first 77W Emirates is retiring? Are others due to follow in the next few months? Does Emirates publish expected retirement dates of its planes in advance?

Anti-climatic. Oh, I know I'm being cynical, but it seems like we've been waiting for this a *long* time.

If this is mid-haul, than it is one beat up airframe. Oh, it still has life, better than at some airlines.

But what will the impact be on resale values of 77Ws after say a dozen ex-EK 77Ws hit the market? In my opinion, there has been a shortage of 2nd hand 77Ws. But when the largest operator goes into selling mode, that must impact the market. As well as the market for any competing airframes (e.g., A330s). This will take time, but eventually we'll see a trend.

Lightsaber

dcajet wrote:

Channex757 wrote:

itisi wrote:

They don't always go in alphabetical order... maybe different leading companies.

I don't think the first CX 77W to go will be the oldest.

EK have different configurations too; midhaul and longhaul subfleets with lower and higher density layouts in those fleets.

Without going digging into fleet lists I expect EBD is one that did more midhaul flying and has more cycles because of that. The longhaul ones have enhanced crew rest and other features. Some of the aircraft also have low density cabins including First; others are fitted out with low-J type cabins and are people huggers that pound away on their undercarriage.

What I'm getting at (probably badly) is that at EK it's a complicated fleet and pretty unpredictable to us outsiders which might be first up for a heavy visit and lessor return.

You are correct, this one had a 2 class configuration, 42C/386Y and it mostly flew midhaul to Europe and Asia.

For the benefit of others, Emirates has four different configurations for B77W:
B777-300ER
C42Y386
F8C42Y306
F8C42Y304
F8C42Y310

For comparison:
B777-300A
F12C42Y310

Interesting to see the growth of VIM Airlines and also other Russian leisure carriers, specially since the demise of Transaero.
Hope to see this bird doing long flights for VIM. Would be cool to see it flying to the Caribbean.
Isn't Rossiya going to get some B777-300ERs from Emirates too?

Seems like just yesterday they started taking the 77W's hard to believe its been 12 years already.

lightsaber wrote:

Anti-climatic. Oh, I know I'm being cynical, but it seems like we've been waiting for this a *long* time.

If this is mid-haul, than it is one beat up airframe. Oh, it still has life, better than at some airlines.

But what will the impact be on resale values of 77Ws after say a dozen ex-EK 77Ws hit the market? In my opinion, there has been a shortage of 2nd hand 77Ws. But when the largest operator goes into selling mode, that must impact the market. As well as the market for any competing airframes (e.g., A330s). This will take time, but eventually we'll see a trend.

Lightsaber

And the OEMs thought they were already having a hard time with the widebody order slowdown... imagine what the situation will be now with EK officially starting retirement and SQ likely not too far behind... That is 50-60 half-life 77Ws over the next 5 years probably for cheap.

The only word that can describe Boeing's relationship with EK going forward is "frenemy".

And just when the A380 is right sized for booming air travel next decade, EK will be retiring over a hundred not-so-heavily used ones...

Airbus and Boeing have a common frenemy.

The frenemy of my enemy happens to be my frenemy as well, I guess...

Haha

Emirates still have 20+ 77Ws to be delivered......

The777Man

lightsaber wrote:

But what will the impact be on resale values of 77Ws after say a dozen ex-EK 77Ws hit the market? In my opinion, there has been a shortage of 2nd hand 77Ws. But when the largest operator goes into selling mode, that must impact the market. As well as the market for any competing airframes (e.g., A330s). This will take time, but eventually we'll see a trend.

Lightsaber

This will be very interesting to watch. Not only how the resale (and leasing) prices will develop, but also where all these aircraft will end up. As the volumes increases, there must be other customers than the Russian leisure carriers

One of my best aviation buddies maintains that one of the main drivers behind pushing hard on the 777X project was the fact that Boeing would have needed a badly more appetizing 777 variant for the time when the second hand EK frames (and to a lesser extent CX and SQ) would hit the market... maybe he is not that wrong after all..?

The777Man wrote:

Emirates still have 20+ 77Ws to be delivered......

The777Man

And we can expect 1 777-300ER being retired for every new delivered in the next years. 777 passenger frame numbers at Emirates has topped out as it is. This year it is mainly 777-300 being retired.

tullamarine wrote:

MO11 wrote:
na wrote:
Emirates has retired its first 777-300ER. Its going to be leased to VIM Avia:
http://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb.m ... av4&page=3


Twelve years old. Right on schedule.

And let AerCap handle the heavy check. This seems to be a favorite strategy for Ryanair as well, sell to Avolon (formerly CIT Aerospace) at first D check and place the cost on the new owner.

Effectively EK will have paid for the D check in their lease costs. The lease rate is not just a simple time charge. It is a combination of time, hours and cycles. The original lease fee will have been set to a maximum number of cycles and hours. Returning an aircraft in excess of these will trigger a penalty. This potential penalty will play a part in determining the order airlines return their aircraft to the lessor.

The final balloon payment includes any check related costs. If you return a leased aircraft, 1% from for example a D check, you pay 99% of the estimated D check and rectification costs, including the likely downtime. Generally the airline will return early if a major check is due soon, so the final payment is minimised.

Gone are the days from the 60's and 70's, where leased aircraft were returned minutes from a major check, and engines swapped in the same state. The leasing industry is far, far smarter now.

On new aircraft leased, the final balloon payment also usually includes an external repaint and interior refurbishment too.

For a blue chip customer, if leasing a replacement aircraft from the same leasing company, as an inducement, often part, and for the very, very good a big part, of the final balloon payment is forgiven, although for tax reasons, this might not appear to be the case.

On used aircraft being re-leased, everything is up for negotiation, especially if the age and term of lease is such it's expected to be retired from service at lease end.

juliuswong wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Channex757 wrote:

EK have different configurations too; midhaul and longhaul subfleets with lower and higher density layouts in those fleets.

Without going digging into fleet lists I expect EBD is one that did more midhaul flying and has more cycles because of that. The longhaul ones have enhanced crew rest and other features. Some of the aircraft also have low density cabins including First; others are fitted out with low-J type cabins and are people huggers that pound away on their undercarriage.

What I'm getting at (probably badly) is that at EK it's a complicated fleet and pretty unpredictable to us outsiders which might be first up for a heavy visit and lessor return.

You are correct, this one had a 2 class configuration, 42C/386Y and it mostly flew midhaul to Europe and Asia.

For the benefit of others, Emirates has four different configurations for B77W:
B777-300ER
C42Y386
F8C42Y306
F8C42Y304
F8C42Y310

For comparison:
B777-300A
F12C42Y310

And soon another configuration will be out there, new First class will feature only 6 seats, the planes with new business class seats still have same configuration with 8/42.

Someone83 wrote:

This will be very interesting to watch. Not only how the resale (and leasing) prices will develop, but also where all these aircraft will end up. As the volumes increases, there must be other customers than the Russian leisure carriers

it is very interesting indeed, because not that many airlines out there have the volume of pax to operate this big bird, in a 2 class configuration they can easily have 400 in economy and 30-35 in business.
I think the obvious candidates are some airlines operating B747, but I can't remember now many of them. In Spain Wamos was an option but I think they will go for more A332, in the future if the new airline, Plus Ultra, do good, then the B77W could be an excellent option for them to replace the A343.

Is Boeing working in a B77W conversion to cargo?? I know they are offering the B77F but not many airlines can afford to get brand new planes, specially such an expensive plane.

Someone83 wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

But what will the impact be on resale values of 77Ws after say a dozen ex-EK 77Ws hit the market? In my opinion, there has been a shortage of 2nd hand 77Ws. But when the largest operator goes into selling mode, that must impact the market. As well as the market for any competing airframes (e.g., A330s). This will take time, but eventually we'll see a trend.

Lightsaber

This will be very interesting to watch. Not only how the resale (and leasing) prices will develop, but also where all these aircraft will end up. As the volumes increases, there must be other customers than the Russian leisure carriers

Leasing and finance companies have a very good idea of what aircraft will need to find homes (new and used) in the next decade, and those numbers are already being factored into leases and finance.

Already tighter credit requirements, but not yet rising interest rates, especially for WB aircraft, will encourage affected airlines to sell and leaseback their own older aircraft, and to lease used aircraft. Used aircraft, appropriately priced, should find good homes.

New sales and leases will be most severely affected. Expect Boeing Capital and Airbus funding partners to be more actively involved, not from desire, but to move metal over the next 3-5 years.

Well it should just retire on dot and defer future deliveries until market conditions get better.

We don't know why lease cost went up by 30% last year, if lessors are demanding more on new leases because of higher purchase price (compared to current FMV), low residual value and low resale potential, one-to-one replacement is not a good idea.

As many others miss a picture in some threads, here's my help, on behalf of many viewers that love to see which plane we're talking about:

What is the typical lease rate for a 777W with similar specs/hours/ cycles/ checks as what EK is retiring?

aemoreira1981 wrote:

And let AerCap handle the heavy check. This seems to be a favorite strategy for Ryanair as well, sell to Avolon (formerly CIT Aerospace) at first D check and place the cost on the new owner.

777s don't have D checks, most aircraft these days don't.

migair54 wrote:

juliuswong wrote:

dcajet wrote:

You are correct, this one had a 2 class configuration, 42C/386Y and it mostly flew midhaul to Europe and Asia.

For the benefit of others, Emirates has four different configurations for B77W:
B777-300ER
C42Y386
F8C42Y306
F8C42Y304
F8C42Y310

For comparison:
B777-300A
F12C42Y310

And soon another configuration will be out there, new First class will feature only 6 seats, the planes with new business class seats still have same configuration with 8/42.

Someone83 wrote:

This will be very interesting to watch. Not only how the resale (and leasing) prices will develop, but also where all these aircraft will end up. As the volumes increases, there must be other customers than the Russian leisure carriers

it is very interesting indeed, because not that many airlines out there have the volume of pax to operate this big bird, in a 2 class configuration they can easily have 400 in economy and 30-35 in business.
I think the obvious candidates are some airlines operating B747, but I can't remember now many of them. In Spain Wamos was an option but I think they will go for more A332, in the future if the new airline, Plus Ultra, do good, then the B77W could be an excellent option for them to replace the A343.

Is Boeing working in a B77W conversion to cargo?? I know they are offering the B77F but not many airlines can afford to get brand new planes, specially such an expensive plane.

As was noted in another thread, the composite floor in the passenger 777 makes it nearly impossible (cost-prohibitive) to convert one to a freighter. One would be better off buying or leasing a 777 freighter.

Now, as for VIM, I'm surprised that they didn't consider negotiating with Vietnam to lease any of the four 777-200ERs that Vietnam Airlines owns but has parked and is trying to sell (either to another airline or to a lessor), as they have Pratt & Whitney engines, which seem to be pretty undesirable for 777 or A330 lease values.

dtw2hyd wrote:

We don't know why lease cost went up by 30% last year, if lessors are demanding more on new leases because of higher purchase price (compared to current FMV), low residual value and low resale potential, one-to-one replacement is not a good idea.

Two more likely reasons. The ratio of leased to owned aircraft has increased in favour of leased. Also, as aircraft come off lease, the final balloon payment is usually categorised as a lease payment. In calendar year 2016, 36 new aircraft were delivered, and 29 left the fleet.

gsg013 wrote:

What is the typical lease rate for a 777W with similar specs/hours/ cycles/ checks as what EK is retiring?

I would be interested to know this as well, or at least an estimate ?

eddy67 wrote:

gsg013 wrote:

What is the typical lease rate for a 777W with similar specs/hours/ cycles/ checks as what EK is retiring?

I would be interested to know this as well, or at least an estimate ?

There was a thread about it. I'll try and find it for you.

TheGeordielad wrote:

eddy67 wrote:

gsg013 wrote:

What is the typical lease rate for a 777W with similar specs/hours/ cycles/ checks as what EK is retiring?

I would be interested to know this as well, or at least an estimate ?

There was a thread about it. I'll try and find it for you.

Here you go
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1361025&p=19524679&hilit=Aircraft+prices#p19524679

Planesmart wrote:

Two more likely reasons. The ratio of leased to owned aircraft has increased in favour of leased. Also, as aircraft come off lease, the final balloon payment is usually categorised as a lease payment. In calendar year 2016, 36 new aircraft were delivered, and 29 left the fleet.

Very likely. Also small/medium WBs were replaced by large WBs.

Emirates actually in most cases does a fleet exit maintenance to bring the aircraft to contract standards even if it is going for storage . In this particular case VIM will be using emirates interior so the aircraft after getting its new paint job will start training flights .

ojjunior wrote:

As many others miss a picture in some threads, here's my help, on behalf of many viewers that love to see which plane we're talking about:

The aircraft left Dubai in an all white livery and was spotted landing at Moscow - Domodedovo, Russia airport .


http://www.airteamimages.com/boeing-777 ... large.html

A6-EBD was offered to PIA last year when they issued a RFP/tender for long-range aircraft. From memory 2 TAM B77W's were also offered.

It's been know for a while that -EBD was the first 77W coming off-lease.

The first B77W leaving the CX fleet isn't B-KPA either as some might of thought.

Plan from December 2015 was to retire one 777-300ER in 2016 that was retired in 2017. The plan was also to retire 24 more aircraft in 2017 (or retire planned 2016 aircraft in 2017, all I know is 50 airframes were scheduled to go, including the A340s). Per wikipedia, the one retirement is all. Is that correct? I'm aware 3 more 777-300 (non-ER) are scheduled to leave the fleet soon.

http://www.aircargoweek.com/emirates-re ... raft-2018/

If will be telling if new 777-300ER deliveries match leaving 777-300ERs...

Lightsaber

Late edit: I found a site that tracks EK aircraft. It shows 777-300ERs going into storage at DWC:
http://theeksource.com/

The777Man wrote:

Emirates still have 20+ 77Ws to be delivered......

The777Man

14 777-300 ER still on order, 150 ordered and 136 delivered.

QF744ER wrote:

A6-EBD was offered to PIA last year when they issued a RFP/tender for long-range aircraft. From memory 2 TAM B77W's were also offered.

It's been know for a while that -EBD was the first 77W coming off-lease.

The first B77W leaving the CX fleet isn't B-KPA either as some might of thought.

The one with "Spirit of HK" livery

As of today four Boeing 777-300's EMR/U/V/T of Emirates have been inactive and most likely stored at DWC where they will go through a maintenance check before heading into the dessert and returned to the lessors most likely LETL. And that leaves the fleet with only two Boeing 777-300 which are active EMQ/X which are currently flying on the following routes EK927/928 Dubai-Cairo Cairo-Dubai EK512/513 Dubai-Delhi Delhi-Dubai EK544/545 Dubai-Chennai Chennai-Dubai EK839/840 Dubai-Bahrain Bahrain-Dubai

The rest of the 300 fleet which are inactive as of today are:

A6-EMR Boeing 777-300 of Emirates has been stored at DWC since 1st August 2017 presumably going through a heavy check
A6-EMT Boeing 777-300 of Emirates has been inactive according to FR24 with no flights scheduled.
A6-EMV Boeing 777-300 of Emirates has been inactive also according to FR24 with no flights scheduled
A6-EMU Boeing 777-300 of Emirates has been stored location unknown most likely DWC

If the delivery schedules are on time and with no delay then we will most likely see the retirement of the last two 300's which are remaining in the EK fleet leave at the end of 2017 or in the beginning of 2018.

And speaking about the first CX Boeing 777-300ER retirement In my opinion we won't see any of the CX Boeing 777-300ER's leaving the fleet anytime soon my guess would be somewhere in 2019-2020ish.

As VIM Airlines is on the verge of collapse, what will happen to this aircraft?


VP-BIN VIM Airlines Boeing 777-31H(ER) by Игорь Кондаков, on Flickr

KarelXWB wrote:

As VIM Airlines is on the verge of collapse, what will happen to this aircraft?


VP-BIN VIM Airlines Boeing 777-31H(ER) by Игорь Кондаков, on Flickr

It could go to Nordwind Airlines as they have leased two Boeing 777-300ER's from Eva Air and they could also use this one for expansion too.