The purpose of this ban cannot possibly be security. The flaws in that argument are beyond obvious. A bomb in the hold (or a lithium ion battery fire in the hold) is just as bad if not worse than the same in the cabin. The purpose must be to make travel to the USA more inconvenient. The result will be a gradual loss of business travel and thus business investment in the U.S. by foreign businesses as the cost of doing business in the U.S. rises over and over again in bits and pieces. An unreasonable regulation here, a tariff there, etc. etc. etc.
What I can't fathom is why a President would want to do this. Actually, I have my theories but I'll leave them to non-Av.
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Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
DocLightning wrote:The purpose of this ban cannot possibly be security. The flaws in that argument are beyond obvious. A bomb in the hold (or a lithium ion battery fire in the hold) is just as bad if not worse than the same in the cabin.
The threat danger is largely negated by moving devices away from the cabin.
Wont get into specifics of what has been ongoing the last few months, but whole point is to remove passenger access to larger devices. This is not an issue about resultant potential explosive is the hold.
Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
LAXintl wrote:DocLightning wrote:The purpose of this ban cannot possibly be security. The flaws in that argument are beyond obvious. A bomb in the hold (or a lithium ion battery fire in the hold) is just as bad if not worse than the same in the cabin.
The threat danger is largely negated by moving devices away from the cabin.
Wont get into specifics of what has been ongoing the last few months, but whole point is to remove passenger access to larger devices. This is not an issue about resultant potential explosive is the hold.
Nonsens, just look at the implementation of the ban, who gets hit by it, airports in Egypt for example, where a bomb has been smuggled on an airplane? It is a political motivated safety theater, nothing else.
Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
Chemist wrote:I am about to buy tickets from USA to Europe for late summer. Due to the uncertainty over this, and the fact that a major purpose of the trip is photography, I'm going to have to book my wife and myself via Canada stopover in the hope that I can then fly with my equipment. I can't buy now and assume nothing will change over the next few months.
The idiots in Washington are costing me money, and giving Canada some extra business.
I was thinking this might be a good way to get around it: travel internationally via Canada or Mexico. Book a flight to Toronto or Vancouver then book to the final destination. Will probably be a good bit more expensive than flying direct from LAX, but at least it's cheaper than replacing the laptop...
Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
The latest is that US is considering a laptop ban for all international flights, but in as well as out of the US.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/wor ... ts-8890618
Domestic flights seem to be off the map, but I don't see how you make a difference between international flight out of the US and a domestic flight as in many airports there is no separation of the two.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/wor ... ts-8890618
Domestic flights seem to be off the map, but I don't see how you make a difference between international flight out of the US and a domestic flight as in many airports there is no separation of the two.
Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
AngMoh wrote:Domestic flights seem to be off the map, but I don't see how you make a difference between international flight out of the US and a domestic flight as in many airports there is no separation of the two.
Agreed. I don't really understand why something like that couldn't be created anywhere.
LAXintl wrote:DocLightning wrote:The purpose of this ban cannot possibly be security. The flaws in that argument are beyond obvious. A bomb in the hold (or a lithium ion battery fire in the hold) is just as bad if not worse than the same in the cabin.
The threat danger is largely negated by moving devices away from the cabin.
Wont get into specifics of what has been ongoing the last few months, but whole point is to remove passenger access to larger devices. This is not an issue about resultant potential explosive is the hold.
I saw media coverage saying that the laptops in the cabin would allow "remote detonation". That doesn't make a lot of sense on the face of it because a phone could allow that as well. I think it's possible what this means is that the passenger doesn't know they have a laptop with a bomb in it and when they sign into wifi on the plane it is remotely detonated by a hacker. As opposed to being in the hold not connected to the internet.
Having said all of that, that doesn't make that much sense since a timer can accomplish pretty much the same effect and not require nearly the complexity and the FAA/DOT could more easily just ban wifi.
Last edited by enilria on Sun May 28, 2017 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
AngMoh wrote:The latest is that US is considering a laptop ban for all international flights, but in as well as out of the US.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/wor ... ts-8890618
Domestic flights seem to be off the map, but I don't see how you make a difference between international flight out of the US and a domestic flight as in many airports there is no separation of the two.
I am not very surprised they did not completely give up.
I cannot really stand this situation where (1) we do not know exactly where things are going and (2) it is not clear any acceptable solution will be proposed (such as a decent insurance on laptops, tablets and cameras that passengers are forced to check in, or a provably safe way to carry them). As a consequence, I already scrapped a plan to go to the US this summer (essentially, my work requires me to attend conferences from time to time, but I have some room to choose which ones I attend; so my decision is to just skip those in the US for now and until the dust settles, since the rest of the world is large enough).
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Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
DocLightning wrote:The purpose of this ban cannot possibly be security. The flaws in that argument are beyond obvious. A bomb in the hold (or a lithium ion battery fire in the hold) is just as bad if not worse than the same in the cabin. The purpose must be to make travel to the USA more inconvenient.
I think you are exactly right, though I would add that it's also to make travel *from* the USA more inconvenient. This administration does not want US businesses leaving the country or doing business outside the country. And this is one of the few things they can do to prevent that that won't get either shut down by the courts or by congress.
I really see no logic whatsoever to any security argument to be made about this. We didn't ban shoes on flights, and we've actually *had* attempted terrorist shoe bombings on planes. Heck, if you're a known traveler, you don't even need to take your shoes off at security. So you're going to ban a thing that *hasn't* been used as a bomb on a flight, but not something that *has* been. Anyone who's going to talk about how this is really a security measure just needs to stop right there.
Meanwhile, there have been actual, verified accidents caused by lithium batteries in cargo.
So this is not about security or safety. This is about making people not want to fly to or from the USA. And I guarantee it's not the last measure like this that we'll see in the name of security. John Kelly, head of DHS, says "we're going to raise the bar generally speaking for aviation much higher than it is now."
Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
The Terrorist won.
And the USA is a police-state anyways. I am amazed people still would voluntarily travel here.
And the USA is a police-state anyways. I am amazed people still would voluntarily travel here.
Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
enilria wrote:AngMoh wrote:Domestic flights seem to be off the map, but I don't see how you make a difference between international flight out of the US and a domestic flight as in many airports there is no separation of the two.
Agreed. I don't really understand why something like that couldn't be created anywhere.LAXintl wrote:DocLightning wrote:The purpose of this ban cannot possibly be security. The flaws in that argument are beyond obvious. A bomb in the hold (or a lithium ion battery fire in the hold) is just as bad if not worse than the same in the cabin.
The threat danger is largely negated by moving devices away from the cabin.
Wont get into specifics of what has been ongoing the last few months, but whole point is to remove passenger access to larger devices. This is not an issue about resultant potential explosive is the hold.
I saw media coverage saying that the laptops in the cabin would allow "remote detonation". That doesn't make a lot of sense on the face of it because a phone could allow that as well. I think it's possible what this means is that the passenger doesn't know they have a laptop with a bomb in it and when they sign into wifi on the plane it is remotely detonated by a hacker. As opposed to being in the hold not connected to the internet.
Having said all of that, that doesn't make that much sense since a timer can accomplish pretty much the same effect and not require nearly the complexity and the FAA/DOT could more easily just ban wifi.
How would a passenger accidentally have a modified laptop? Considering that the battery packs are OEM specific the terrorists would need to prepare a battery pack, then find a passenger with the same laptop, then steal the laptop and replace the battery but return it before the passenger notices while the modified battery would need to work so well that the passenger would not notice that the laptop has been tampered with.
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Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
seahawk wrote:How would a passenger accidentally have a modified laptop? Considering that the battery packs are OEM specific the terrorists would need to prepare a battery pack, then find a passenger with the same laptop, then steal the laptop and replace the battery but return it before the passenger notices while the modified battery would need to work so well that the passenger would not notice that the laptop has been tampered with.
Presumably, these would be willing suicide bombers. For reasons that pass my understanding, they seem to be in ready supply.
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Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
downdata wrote:It will destroy premium demand. If you don't need to work on a plane, there is much less need to travel in international J than say, Y or W.
Why do you need "J" in order to work on a plane? I've seen plenty of people flying in economy class and doing work at the same time and they seemed to be doing it without problem.
I would also suggest that tablet devices / phones / cameras should also be banned from being in the cabin as well. No exceptions. Phones themselves can be dangerous devices anyway, what with exploding batteries, etc.
Actually, I have a better solution to improve safety - just stop all flying in and out of the USA. No airlines fly in or out of the country. And no domestic flying. That will make airliners very safe, because they'll all be on the ground gathering dust and cobwebs.
Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
DocLightning wrote:seahawk wrote:How would a passenger accidentally have a modified laptop? Considering that the battery packs are OEM specific the terrorists would need to prepare a battery pack, then find a passenger with the same laptop, then steal the laptop and replace the battery but return it before the passenger notices while the modified battery would need to work so well that the passenger would not notice that the laptop has been tampered with.
Presumably, these would be willing suicide bombers. For reasons that pass my understanding, they seem to be in ready supply.
Why would you need a remote detonation then?
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Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
seahawk wrote:Why would you need a remote detonation then?
If it were in the hold. But a timer would also suffice.
Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
And is much easier to built than a remote detonator.
Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
Gannet/USAT (my employer) is now also reporting the same as the WSJ article from this past week that DHS has decided that the EU's concern over batteries in the cargo is less of a risk than in cabin and that the risk to the cabin os far greater.
The take away I got from listening to Mr. Kelly yesterday at DCA is that this is pretty much a done deal, and that the ban will start as soon as the SOPs for the TSA agents are complete. I did not get a sense that the agency really had much interest in what IATA or the EU's take on the matter was.
The take away I got from listening to Mr. Kelly yesterday at DCA is that this is pretty much a done deal, and that the ban will start as soon as the SOPs for the TSA agents are complete. I did not get a sense that the agency really had much interest in what IATA or the EU's take on the matter was.
Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
DocLightning wrote:seahawk wrote:Why would you need a remote detonation then?
If it were in the hold. But a timer would also suffice.
All it would really take is infiltrating IT at a company with a lot of biz travel.
Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
AngMoh wrote:The latest is that US is considering a laptop ban for all international flights, but in as well as out of the US.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/wor ... ts-8890618
Domestic flights seem to be off the map, but I don't see how you make a difference between international flight out of the US and a domestic flight as in many airports there is no separation of the two.
It's likely the Department of Homeland Security recognizes the risk for domestic flights, too. However, I guess they did not propose a domestic ban because they are afraid of political backlash from the business travel special interest groups. Those groups that represent business travellers and their companies are politically powerful here in the US. If a domestic ban was proposed, those groups would explode with anger saying that it hurts small businesses, entrepreneurs, and etc. I think those groups will already be angry about bans for all international-US flights, but they will not as apoplectic if a domestic ban was proposed.
Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
I would venture to say the ME ban was the test bed to gauge backlash, and the decision to expand the ban to the EU, and subsequently Asia and domestic as the end goal to have been implemented in stages to give both the general public as well as the airlines sufficient time to get in the process in place.
Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
kelvin933 wrote:USA abandons the laptop ban
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/30/united-states-no-laptop-ban-238939
The article only states the ban is off for US <-> Europe flights. It doesn't state anything about international flights anywhere else. It is likely the ban proposal is still on the table.
Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
max999 wrote:kelvin933 wrote:USA abandons the laptop ban
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/30/united-states-no-laptop-ban-238939
The article only states the ban is off for US <-> Europe flights. It doesn't state anything about international flights anywhere else. It is likely the ban proposal is still on the table.
I don't see how they continue the ME3+TK laptop ban now. It would seem that this rips it to shreds in terms of a safe justification.
Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
The Department of Homeland Security has confirmed to Consumerist that it will not be expanding a ban on laptops in the cabins of U.S.-bound aircraft to cover flights coming from Europe. At the same time, DHS cautions that this restriction still remains a possibility in the future.
A spokesman for the DHS told Consumerist that Secretary John Kelly spoke on the phone with European Home Affairs Commissioner Dimitris Avramopoulos and Violeta Bulc, the EU’s Transport Commissioner, on Tuesday to discuss aviation security.
While on the call, the three “agreed on the need to raise the bar for aviation security globally, including through a range of potential seen and unseen enhancements,” and committed to working together to “secure global aviation,” while keeping the lines of communication and cooperation clear.
“Finally, while a much-discussed expansion of the ban on large electronic devices in the cabin on flights to the United States was not announced today, the Secretary made it clear that an expansion is still on the table,” the spokesperson said in a statement.
Secretary Kelly said he would do whatever it takes to secure passenger flights heading to the U.S. — “including prohibiting large electronic devices from the passenger cabin – if the intelligence and threat level warrant it.”
“Over the last few months DHS has continuously reached out to global aviation partners regarding serious and evolving threats to aviation, and the Department will continue to do so,” the spokesperson told Consumerist.
https://consumerist.com/2017/05/30/homeland-security-wont-expand-laptop-ban-to-flights-from-europe-for-now/
I find this VERY contradictory, as this is report is the opposite of every piece of information that is coming across our editor desks at Gannett (and like every other major American media outlet). Reports coming in from the wire (AP, Reuters, and AFP) from their sources state quite the opposite of what Consumerist is reporting.
Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
From what I heard on the radio the reasoning for putting laptops in the hold is that the computer assisted CT scans are better for hold luggage than cabin luggage.
It would seem to me that what is needed is not a ban, it's buying more and better machines, and hiring more staff, to improve security for cabin luggage. Maybe have two lines, one for people without computer hardware with them, one for people with.
It would seem to me that what is needed is not a ban, it's buying more and better machines, and hiring more staff, to improve security for cabin luggage. Maybe have two lines, one for people without computer hardware with them, one for people with.
Re: POLITICO: Laptop Ban "Imminent". Asia Too?
I hope flight and cabin crew in the US stage a work stoppage over this insane plan. I don't want a belly full of lithium batteries going into thermal runaway with no way to fight the fire. It's a horrific accident waiting to happen on a passenger aircraft.
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