micstatic wrote:

I hope they don't pick the 737. Terrible airplane for customers

The same can be said for the A320 series. It's about how it's configured, not the plane itself.

FriscoHeavy wrote:

micstatic wrote:

I hope they don't pick the 737. Terrible airplane for customers

The same can be said for the A320 series. It's about how it's configured, not the plane itself.

FirscoHeavy is correct. I love UA's 737-900 in premium economy. I hate the A320 with slimline seats further back in economy. So it depends on how the plane is configured and where you sit. Also, you might add it, it depends if it is a short flight or a cross country trip.

All of DL's domestic planes in Y suck (or will once reconfigured). Don't let the shiny PTVs, new bins, and mood lighting fool you, DL loves packing them in no matter if it Airbus or Boeing.

tphuang wrote:

Interesting suggestion from that article. Boeing dropping c series complaint as part of getting this order.

Which is also a win for Airbus. They don't have to invest in a US based factory to build the C-series.

marcelh wrote:

tphuang wrote:

Interesting suggestion from that article. Boeing dropping c series complaint as part of getting this order.

Which is also a win for Airbus. They don't have to invest in a US based factory to build the C-series.

It was Bombardier who had to pay for the US based factory.

C series at Mobile will probably happen no matter what. Likely cheaper to produce (lower wages) there then at Mirabel, and gets Airbus a C series FAL completely out of BBD's hair when/if they acquire the whole program.

Dropping the tariff complaints would likely just push back the timeline some for the Mobile production though.

FriscoHeavy wrote:

micstatic wrote:

I hope they don't pick the 737. Terrible airplane for customers

The same can be said for the A320 series. It's about how it's configured, not the plane itself.

A320 series has wider seats & cabin, higher placed windows, and less cabin noise. Yes, it is noticeable! I've taken hundreds of flights on both aircraft types, on many different airlines, and the A320 is generally a more comfortable ride.

Peculiar that most of the posters defending the 737 seem to originate from one country... hmmm

jbs2886 wrote:

FriscoHeavy wrote:

micstatic wrote:

I hope they don't pick the 737. Terrible airplane for customers

The same can be said for the A320 series. It's about how it's configured, not the plane itself.

The complaint is that the 737 is slightly narrower and, thus, worse. While true it is slightly narrower, I find that position ridiculous that it makes the plane "terrible" for passengers as compared to the A320 series. Its a marginal difference at best for each passenger. I fly plenty of A321s and 737s on AA, and don't feel the difference. We just have too many a.net posters that make exaggerated and obnoxious comments like this.

So if it makes no difference, then why do airlines have fewer seats per row for premium economy? Surely, if 17.5 to 18.5 inch width provides no improvement, then they should just go with longer pitch and no width change.

Aa has a very narrowly configured a321 and 737. Even the mce seats are unbearable on 737.

jbs2886 wrote:

tphuang wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

The complaint is that the 737 is slightly narrower and, thus, worse. While true it is slightly narrower, I find that position ridiculous that it makes the plane "terrible" for passengers as compared to the A320 series. Its a marginal difference at best for each passenger. I fly plenty of A321s and 737s on AA, and don't feel the difference. We just have too many a.net posters that make exaggerated and obnoxious comments like this.

So if it makes no difference, then why do airlines have fewer seats per row for premium economy? Surely, if 17.5 to 18.5 inch width provides no improvement, then they should just go with longer pitch and no width change.

Aa has a very narrowly configured a321 and 737. Even the mce seats are unbearable on 737.

This makes no sense. MCE on A321s and 737s have the same seats per row (6).

Also, where did I say "no difference"? I didn't. I said it is a marginal difference at best and that I do not feel the difference on the aircraft. If your comment is to what I feel, you can't disprove my experience.

First paragraph refers to 777 and 350 where airlines have one less seat per row in pe. Seats end up 1 inch wider. If it's no big deal to have this one inch wider seat, then why do airlines do it on their premium economy cabin?

I agree with you that everyone has their own experience on whether or not they feel difference. So maybe calling fellow members obnoxious for saying that they do feel difference is not the right approach here.

I flew in 737-700 sitting behind the wing this morning. Comfortable ride. Ok I had my earbuds in all the time.

tphuang wrote:

Interesting suggestion from that article. Boeing dropping c series complaint as part of getting this order.

But Boeing dropping the complaint doesn't necessarily mean the U.S. government would drop its investigation - especially with the unpredictable administration in charge now.

I still see a split order as a possibility here, based on the respective products. 100 A321neo to replace the 82 remaining domestic-configured 757s and a few growth MD replacements, and 100+ 737 MAX 8 to replace the remaining MDs (both 88 and 90) and the older A320s.

I think people are dwelling too much on the C-series issue. Yes, I'm sure Delta and Boeing management will discuss it. But I don't think it will affect ordering strategy. If Delta allowed that, it would give Airbus considerable pricing power. Delta is not into giving OEMs pricing power, to put it mildly.

alfa164 wrote:

tphuang wrote:

Interesting suggestion from that article. Boeing dropping c series complaint as part of getting this order.

But Boeing dropping the complaint doesn't necessarily mean the U.S. government would drop its investigation - especially with the unpredictable administration in charge now.

As the article states, Boeing dropping the complaints will in some form or another lead to the investigation dropping as well. This is because Boeing is a one company US industry, and the Trump administration would do what Boeing thought was the best option. If Boeing doesn't want tariffs anymore, there won't be any. At least that's the theory.

jbs2886 wrote:

FriscoHeavy wrote:

micstatic wrote:

I hope they don't pick the 737. Terrible airplane for customers

The same can be said for the A320 series. It's about how it's configured, not the plane itself.

The complaint is that the 737 is slightly narrower and, thus, worse. While true it is slightly narrower, I find that position ridiculous that it makes the plane "terrible" for passengers as compared to the A320 series. Its a marginal difference at best for each passenger. I fly plenty of A321s and 737s on AA, and don't feel the difference. We just have too many a.net posters that make exaggerated and obnoxious comments like this.

With all due respect. I fly 70 flights a year on Delta. I can most certainly discern the difference between airbus and Boeing seat width. I get on an airbus narrowbody without that unsettling Boeing feeling. Maybe obnoxious to you. But Like going to a bad restaurant, I know when the food sucks.

seabosdca wrote:

I still see a split order as a possibility here, based on the respective products. 100 A321neo to replace the 82 remaining domestic-configured 757s and a few growth MD replacements, and 100+ 737 MAX 8 to replace the remaining MDs (both 88 and 90) and the older A320s.

I think people are dwelling too much on the C-series issue. Yes, I'm sure Delta and Boeing management will discuss it. But I don't think it will affect ordering strategy. If Delta allowed that, it would give Airbus considerable pricing power. Delta is not into giving OEMs pricing power, to put it mildly.

Quite likely - but I see the 757's and A320's being removed at the same time. The two fleets are about the same age (early 90's to mid 2000's).

Perhaps this should give us a clue were Delta might be going. There's a report that Delta is passing some of its C-Series Jets to AM while this tariff fiasco continues on. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/aeromexi ... 12124.html

Either, they're trying to appease Boeing or go for a long protracted war with them if they go with Airbus until the spat is over.

micstatic wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

FriscoHeavy wrote:

The same can be said for the A320 series. It's about how it's configured, not the plane itself.

The complaint is that the 737 is slightly narrower and, thus, worse. While true it is slightly narrower, I find that position ridiculous that it makes the plane "terrible" for passengers as compared to the A320 series. Its a marginal difference at best for each passenger. I fly plenty of A321s and 737s on AA, and don't feel the difference. We just have too many a.net posters that make exaggerated and obnoxious comments like this.

With all due respect. I fly 70 flights a year on Delta. I can most certainly discern the difference between airbus and Boeing seat width. I get on an airbus narrowbody without that unsettling Boeing feeling. Maybe obnoxious to you. But Like going to a bad restaurant, I know when the food sucks.

Unsettling... c’mon. No need to be so dramatic. It’s the configuration, not the plane. I’ve been on countless 737s more comfortable than an A320 series.

Conversely, I’ve been on comfortable 320s that are more comfy than 737s. It’s a well built plane and no, that one extra inch doesn’t alter your comfort and make the 737 a bad plane.

So many dramatic folks on here. I enjoy aviation and thus, both planes. Happy to fly either at any time.

FriscoHeavy wrote:

It’s a well built plane and no, that one extra inch doesn’t alter your comfort and make the 737 a bad plane.

Does it make the 737 a bad plane? No. I don't think anyone is suggesting that, but it certainly affects comfort. Think of a morbidly obese person, I'm sure an extra inch would make this person just a little bit less uncomfortable in a tight seat.

That said, very few people would know that the 320 has more width and nearly no one would pay a premium for that extra inch, so it really doesn't matter anyway. But to say an inch doesn't affect comfort is just incorrect.

FriscoHeavy wrote:

I enjoy aviation and thus, both planes. Happy to fly either at any time.

Because you enjoy aviation, you enjoy both planes. Conversely, based on your statement, someone could say I don't enjoy aviation and thus, I don't enjoy both planes (and presumably wouldn't enjoy the one with an inch of less room).

I'm a 737 fan myself but to say that an inch doesn't alter comfort warranted this response.

bgm wrote:

Peculiar that most of the posters defending the 737 seem to originate from one country... hmmm

Probably because the 737 is all over the place in that one country

JAAlbert wrote:

bgm wrote:

Peculiar that most of the posters defending the 737 seem to originate from one country... hmmm

Probably because the 737 is all over the place in that one country

Could be The Netherlands

Airbus' A320NEO order books must be pretty much full until 2025 and Boeing's until 2024-2025.

I think that if DL can wait until 2021, they could launch the CS500.

The first deliveries of the CS100 are a quarter away and these will be built in Canada, so the tariffs apply.
It makes sense to send those first deliveries to AM.

Once the deal with Airbus is closed, the Mobile assembly line should be built and churning out aircraft within a year.
So I think that the first DL deliveries for the CS100 should not be before well into 2019 and that any units produced before that would go to AM or could be leased out to other airlines.

Regarding this RFP though, I think that Boeing would have to cut DL a very sweet UA type deal on MAX deliveries to get back in the game. Something in the 25-30 USD million range.
I'm pretty sure BBD and Airbus will be happy to offer the CS300 at around that price point and perhaps even launch the CS500 with a decent commitment.

The way I see it, Delta could replace its entire MD80/MD90 line-up with CS300/CS500, with options on further deliveries to replace B737NG's, deferring the CS100 deliveries until the time comes to replace the B717's. The A321 and B739ER's would replace the domestic B757-200's.
This is the golden opportunity for the Cseries.

scbriml wrote:

tlecam wrote:

I wonder which existing fleet replacements they're going after? They have 321 and 739's on order, along with the CS100. This seems to be targeting the 150-160 seat gauge?

This RFP will be DL's first order for 'next gen' narrowbodies, so either neo or MAX.

Wasn't the CS100 the first "next gen" order for Delta?

I’m pretty set on DL wanting to order the A321NEO for long haul, I’m not talking about domestic either we’re talking JFK-Western Europe, ATL-Northern South America, etc. The 757s can shift back to domestic flying at that point.

flymco753 wrote:

I’m pretty set on DL wanting to order the A321NEO for long haul, I’m not talking about domestic either we’re talking JFK-Western Europe, ATL-Northern South America, etc. The 757s can shift back to domestic flying at that point.

You mean they'll make an order for the A321 NEO LR? With no order from any of the US3, that should tell you there is scepticism over whether it could do NYC-Western Europe. NYC-British Isles/Portugal, yeah shouldn't be an issue. I'm not sure this RFP will be an order for an international 757 replacement but rather the domestic 757s, A320s.

Waterbomber wrote:

Airbus' A320NEO order books must be pretty much full until 2025 and Boeing's until 2024-2025.

I think that if DL can wait until 2021, they could launch the CS500.

The first deliveries of the CS100 are a quarter away and these will be built in Canada, so the tariffs apply.
It makes sense to send those first deliveries to AM.

Once the deal with Airbus is closed, the Mobile assembly line should be built and churning out aircraft within a year.
So I think that the first DL deliveries for the CS100 should not be before well into 2019 and that any units produced before that would go to AM or could be leased out to other airlines.

Regarding this RFP though, I think that Boeing would have to cut DL a very sweet UA type deal on MAX deliveries to get back in the game. Something in the 25-30 USD million range.
I'm pretty sure BBD and Airbus will be happy to offer the CS300 at around that price point and perhaps even launch the CS500 with a decent commitment.

The way I see it, Delta could replace its entire MD80/MD90 line-up with CS300/CS500, with options on further deliveries to replace B737NG's, deferring the CS100 deliveries until the time comes to replace the B717's. The A321 and B739ER's would replace the domestic B757-200's.
This is the golden opportunity for the Cseries.

And you think Delta would only expect a deal like that from Boeing? Not Airbus?

This is stating the obvious, but DL is going to use all the leverage they have with both Boeing and Airbus to get the best deal that they can. The Boeing involvement with the C Series and the tariffs is another lever at play in the deal, and there are a lot of ways that they can pull that lever. There is no way that in a duopoly, Delta will "punish" Boeing by taking less favorable financials from Airbus, in my opinion.

tlecam wrote:

This is stating the obvious, but DL is going to use all the leverage they have with both Boeing and Airbus to get the best deal that they can. The Boeing involvement with the C Series and the tariffs is another lever at play in the deal, and there are a lot of ways that they can pull that lever. There is no way that in a duopoly, Delta will "punish" Boeing by taking less favorable financials from Airbus, in my opinion.

Indeed. The CSeries "lever" could be used to squeeze cheap pricing from Boeing. Subsequently, that could be used to squeeze Airbus. The high profile nature of the BBD tariff case puts everybody in the spotlight; Boeing, Delta, and Airbus. The ultimate winner will be Delta, no matter which manufacturer wins the RFP.

aerolimani wrote:

The ultimate winner will be Delta, no matter which manufacturer wins the RFP.

The ultimate winner will be the customers.

JAAlbert wrote:

bgm wrote:

Peculiar that most of the posters defending the 737 seem to originate from one country... hmmm

Probably because the 737 is all over the place in that one country

And what aircraft family do Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant have in common? hmmm You can have a shitty experience or a pleasant experience on A and B. To keep insisting otherwise is borderline trolling.

tlecam wrote:

This is stating the obvious, but DL is going to use all the leverage they have with both Boeing and Airbus to get the best deal that they can. The Boeing involvement with the C Series and the tariffs is another lever at play in the deal, and there are a lot of ways that they can pull that lever. There is no way that in a duopoly, Delta will "punish" Boeing by taking less favorable financials from Airbus, in my opinion.

Correct! DL is goint to use every angle they can, and rightly so. I predict a split order of MAX8 and A321neos will happen. I won't wager as to weighting.

SteelChair wrote:

aerolimani wrote:

The ultimate winner will be Delta, no matter which manufacturer wins the RFP.

The ultimate winner will be the customers.

Who? The guy who pays for the party? I do find your naivety refreshing, though.

tphuang wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

tphuang wrote:

So if it makes no difference, then why do airlines have fewer seats per row for premium economy? Surely, if 17.5 to 18.5 inch width provides no improvement, then they should just go with longer pitch and no width change.

Aa has a very narrowly configured a321 and 737. Even the mce seats are unbearable on 737.

This makes no sense. MCE on A321s and 737s have the same seats per row (6).

Also, where did I say "no difference"? I didn't. I said it is a marginal difference at best and that I do not feel the difference on the aircraft. If your comment is to what I feel, you can't disprove my experience.

First paragraph refers to 777 and 350 where airlines have one less seat per row in pe. Seats end up 1 inch wider. If it's no big deal to have this one inch wider seat, then why do airlines do it on their premium economy cabin?

I agree with you that everyone has their own experience on whether or not they feel difference. So maybe calling fellow members obnoxious for saying that they do feel difference is not the right approach here.

Quote, "If it's no big deal to have this one inch wider seat, then why do airlines do it on their premium economy cabin?" Its a marketing ploy, airlines never say how much wider the seat will be, that would defeating the purpose of charging for a so called upgrade.

Why not both the 737 MAX and the A320neo? AA put in an order for 100 of both, why can't DL. Both would fit in quite well with DL's fleet.

ADrum23 wrote:

Why not both the 737 MAX and the A320neo? AA put in an order for 100 of both, why can't DL. Both would fit in quite well with DL's fleet.

If they split the order, I think they will concentrate on the variant of each family that is in the strongest competitive position. For the A320neo family, that's the A321neo. For the 737 MAX family, that's the MAX 8. There's not much incentive for either the airline or the OEM to try to change that equation.

If one OEM or the other wins the order outright, that's a different story. A straight Airbus order would no doubt feature a big chunk of A320neos, and a straight Boeing order would likewise include a bunch of MAX 10.

Anyone know when this order will be finalized? 2017, 2018??

Is there an advantage to ordering planes in smaller tranches than UA or AA (or Lion et al) do? A 150 plane deal doesn’t get the headlines that a 400 plane deal gets, but in the end, does it matter?

seabosdca wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Why not both the 737 MAX and the A320neo? AA put in an order for 100 of both, why can't DL. Both would fit in quite well with DL's fleet.

If they split the order, I think they will concentrate on the variant of each family that is in the strongest competitive position. For the A320neo family, that's the A321neo. For the 737 MAX family, that's the MAX 8. There's not much incentive for either the airline or the OEM to try to change that equation.

If one OEM or the other wins the order outright, that's a different story. A straight Airbus order would no doubt feature a big chunk of A320neos, and a straight Boeing order would likewise include a bunch of MAX 10.

We are talking about DL, right? The airline that ordered both the 739 and A321? The airline whose current narrowbody fleet consists of 73G, 738, 739, A319, A320, A321, MD-88, MD90, 717, 752, and 753 with the C series on order? I don't think you can count out any combination of MAX 8,10, A320NEO, and A321NEO.

jbs2886 wrote:

flyabr wrote:

Anyone know when this order will be finalized? 2017, 2018??

A decision hasn't even been announced, I doubt anyone can predict when it will be finalized.

My bad, that's what i meant, when will DL announce a decision.

No surprise here Delta has hundreds of planes 20 plus years old. Between the MD-80/90 and the 757 many are 25 plus years old.

Prost wrote:

Is there an advantage to ordering planes in smaller tranches than UA or AA (or Lion et al) do? A 150 plane deal doesn’t get the headlines that a 400 plane deal gets, but in the end, does it matter?

You spend a fair bit less money while still generally getting very favorable pricing.

flyabr wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

flyabr wrote:

Anyone know when this order will be finalized? 2017, 2018??

A decision hasn't even been announced, I doubt anyone can predict when it will be finalized.

My bad, that's what i meant, when will DL announce a decision.

My understanding is that the decision will be announced next week.


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As a window seat guy, I prefer the 737 to the A320. The side walls feel much tighter to the seat whereas on the 737 I can lean into the side wall comfortably. I’m also short so the window height doesn’t bother me. Also the sky interior really does make a difference. The cabin feels way more spacious even with the larger space bins installed. I haven’t flown on an A320 family aircraft with the new bins so I don’t know how those change the feel of the interior. From a general passenger perspective, it really is a wash. DLs 739 is hell in the sky, we’ve all beaten that horse to death. But UAs 739 really is a great airplane. And 737 tends to be more generous with pitch. It really comes down to personal preference and airline configuration, whether you prefer pitch or width, and I’m tempted to believe that most passengers don’t care much about window height either because most passengers close their windows. I hope that whatever DL chooses they see the light and install a mid cabin lav.

flyabr wrote:

Anyone know when this order will be finalized? 2017, 2018??

Isn't Delta's investor day next week? If there will be an announcement, I predict it will be the day before the investor presentation.

I'm still hoping on an AirbusNEO program, I simply don't like the 737 and the way DL operates them from the cargo bins to the cabin.

flyabr wrote:

Anyone know when this order will be finalized? 2017, 2018??

We heard from the VP of TechOps that they expect to announce before the end of the year. Like others have guessed, the investor call would be a good bet.

Dalmd88 wrote:

flyabr wrote:

Anyone know when this order will be finalized? 2017, 2018??

We heard from the VP of TechOps that they expect to announce before the end of the year. Like others have guessed, the investor call would be a good bet.

Should be on Monday morning.