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OA940
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Fri May 19, 2017 10:15 pm

Bostrom wrote:
OA940 wrote:
If it's A320/738 size, then the MAX will probably win. It has superior capacity and range, and can already be delivered, which might be a factor for them. If its 321/739 size, the neo has a clear advantage, in that it's superior and has currently the best 757 replacement. Then again, 319/73G size is anyone's guess. But they have some old 150-seaters from Northwest.


For the 319/737-700 size, I'd guess the CS300 has a pretty good chance.


I would hope so. I'm a huge fan of the plane, and it has the range and better capabilities than the others. But many see it as a regional aircraft more.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Fri May 19, 2017 10:46 pm

Bostrom wrote:
OA940 wrote:
If it's A320/738 size, then the MAX will probably win. It has superior capacity and range, and can already be delivered, which might be a factor for them. If its 321/739 size, the neo has a clear advantage, in that it's superior and has currently the best 757 replacement. Then again, 319/73G size is anyone's guess. But they have some old 150-seaters from Northwest.


For the 319/737-700 size, I'd guess the CS300 has a pretty good chance.


I have to think its the A320/738 size only because with the 757s staying a while and nearly 150 A321s and 737-900ERs still to be delivered, that seat segment market is pretty heavily covered. Plus, A320s are starting to be retired now and that would be a big seat gap. I'm interested to see how the 737-8MAX performs because it appears to be kind of the sweet spot of the 737.

That being said, I think the 319neo/7.5MAX are the biggest questions - does DL go CS300 or those aircraft? I do believe, however, the CS300 is inevitable (barring something happening with BBD), but DL could do both CS300 and a 319neo/7.5MAX.
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Fri May 19, 2017 10:50 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
Forget the A320. The A320 backlog is huge, with over 11 years worth of production already sold out, regardless of any intended ramp-up. The engine issues are not going to help in the short-term.

Well that is not true.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Fri May 19, 2017 10:55 pm

Polot wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
Forget the A320. The A320 backlog is huge, with over 11 years worth of production already sold out, regardless of any intended ramp-up. The engine issues are not going to help in the short-term.

Well that is not true.


Lol. That 30 aircraft order of A321ceos is going to get filled how then?
 
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NeBaNi
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Fri May 19, 2017 10:57 pm

1337Delta764 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
1337Delta764 wrote:
I'm almost certain price is the main driver of DL's purchases, given their reputation and the nature of their recent procurements. What fleet decisions have been made on politics and not price or technical merit that you are talking about?

The A330neo was definitely driven by politics; no airline in their right mind would order it over the 787 if politics were not at play.

I seem to recall that during the widebody RFP, Boeing couldn't find slots for the 787 in the timeframe Delta wanted them, and instead offered new 777-200LRs, which Delta didn't particularly want. So in my understanding, it came down to Boeing not being able to find delivery slots for Delta in the timeframe they wanted.
 
DeltaMD95
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Fri May 19, 2017 11:22 pm

Wow is DL's CAPEX going to skyrocket from relatively recent historic levels.

Just flat abandon everything that made the airline successful post merger over the past 18 months.

Ed Bastian is the second coming of Leo Mullen. Get ready to sell.
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
ehaase
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Fri May 19, 2017 11:45 pm

DeltaMD95 wrote:
Wow is DL's CAPEX going to skyrocket from relatively recent historic levels.

Just flat abandon everything that made the airline successful post merger over the past 18 months.

Ed Bastian is the second coming of Leo Mullen. Get ready to sell.


My understanding is Delta needs the planes. The MD90's, many 320's, and most of the 757's are quite old. When it comes to Delta's strategy on ordering planes, I always remember what the outstanding Jetlanta said on this forum in July 2014: "Delta will find the best value it can find. Unlike most airlines, Delta's philosophy is not "find the airplane to match the mission". Instead, its strategy is "find the best value and build the network around the asset."
 
T773ER
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Fri May 19, 2017 11:55 pm

Bostrom wrote:
OA940 wrote:
If it's A320/738 size, then the MAX will probably win. It has superior capacity and range, and can already be delivered, which might be a factor for them. If its 321/739 size, the neo has a clear advantage, in that it's superior and has currently the best 757 replacement. Then again, 319/73G size is anyone's guess. But they have some old 150-seaters from Northwest.


For the 319/737-700 size, I'd guess the CS300 has a pretty good chance.



There will likely be an announcement in the next couple of months in which over half the CS100s will be converted to the CS300; not sure if they'll exercise anymore options at this time.
 
CRJ900
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 12:35 am

There is another thread here about AA adding more seats to their B737-800 because they have less demand for premium seats. If this is the beginning of a new trend amongst US carriers, many aircraft types will see increased seating - A320 and B738 will be 170+ seats and CS300 will see 141-145 seats.
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admanager
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 1:32 am

Think back to July 2011 when AA ordered the 737 Max which hadn't even been launched and also ordered hundreds of Airbus aircraft when "everybody knew AA would never buy from Airbus".
This RFP from Delta will be interesting.
 
dc10lover
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 1:44 am

I think passengers like Airbus better. A bit wider aircraft. Hoping Airbus with the CFM Leap engine.
Ever Wish You Can Go Back In Time And Live In An Earlier Era Of Aviation?
 
CX747
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 1:46 am

Should be interesting. Delta has been barking about foreign carriers for quite some time and then throwing money at foreign manufacturers. Maybe Boeing stops the complaint about Bombardier "dumping" and the two can make up.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
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cvgComair
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 2:07 am

I would really like to see an order for the CS300 and convert the 50 options to more CS100's.
Next: CMH-BOS, Delta Air Lines E170
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
777Mech
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 2:32 am

DeltaMD95 wrote:
Wow is DL's CAPEX going to skyrocket from relatively recent historic levels.

Just flat abandon everything that made the airline successful post merger over the past 18 months.

Ed Bastian is the second coming of Leo Mullen. Get ready to sell.


Compared to AA? They're sitting at over 30bn in debt. DL will be fine.
 
klkla
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 2:38 am

dc10lover wrote:
I think passengers like Airbus better. A bit wider aircraft. Hoping Airbus with the CFM Leap engine.


99.9% of passengers don't know the difference or care.
 
Atlwarrior
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 5:36 am

klkla wrote:
dc10lover wrote:
I think passengers like Airbus better. A bit wider aircraft. Hoping Airbus with the CFM Leap engine.


99.9% of passengers don't know the difference or care.


With all due respect people on this thread know the difference and do care.
 
grbauc
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 5:48 am

Atlwarrior wrote:
klkla wrote:
dc10lover wrote:
I think passengers like Airbus better. A bit wider aircraft. Hoping Airbus with the CFM Leap engine.


99.9% of passengers don't know the difference or care.


With all due respect people on this thread know the difference and do care.


and not all of us care of the few on Anet. so unfortunately your concern will make no difference. Since I believe most of its in your head it can be solved. To each his own though good luck.
 
Andy33
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 6:42 am

CX747 wrote:
Should be interesting. Delta has been barking about foreign carriers for quite some time and then throwing money at foreign manufacturers. Maybe Boeing stops the complaint about Bombardier "dumping" and the two can make up.


Which foreign manufacturers? After all, Airbus has its Mobile, Alabama plant turning out A320 series planes. Embraer doesn't have any product in the size range being discussed here (assuming the discussion has it right). That just leaves BBD as a foreign manufacturer, right - and Delta have already ordered CS100s.

Or are you expecting Sukhoi to leverage the alleged Russian connection in US politics?
 
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 7:30 am

jbs2886 wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
OA940 wrote:
If it's A320/738 size, then the MAX will probably win. It has superior capacity and range, and can already be delivered, which might be a factor for them. If its 321/739 size, the neo has a clear advantage, in that it's superior and has currently the best 757 replacement. Then again, 319/73G size is anyone's guess. But they have some old 150-seaters from Northwest.


For the 319/737-700 size, I'd guess the CS300 has a pretty good chance.


I have to think its the A320/738 size only because with the 757s staying a while and nearly 150 A321s and 737-900ERs still to be delivered, that seat segment market is pretty heavily covered. Plus, A320s are starting to be retired now and that would be a big seat gap. I'm interested to see how the 737-8MAX performs because it appears to be kind of the sweet spot of the 737.

That being said, I think the 319neo/7.5MAX are the biggest questions - does DL go CS300 or those aircraft? I do believe, however, the CS300 is inevitable (barring something happening with BBD), but DL could do both CS300 and a 319neo/7.5MAX.


And also the neo's engine problems won't help it's case. The MAX is the best performer in the 150-seater category with a clear advantage in range, capacity and performance. We just need to see how it will perform.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
QXAS
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 8:34 am

I think it's probably a 60-40 advantage toward the NEO. Recent purchasing trends display a bias toward the European product. NEO is proving itself to be a very efficient machine (when the engines work) and DL likes to get a product that they don't feel they are testing for the rest of the marketplace (no paper airplanes). However Boeing and Delta know that the relationship between the once valued customer/ manufacturer has been strained to the breaking point and a MAX order would ensure for Delta the Boeing continues to pursue RFPs in the future to help DL get the best airplanes for the best price.
MAX also needs a major order to gain A.net credibility. :stirthepot:
May the best jet win!!
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 12:39 pm

1337Delta764 wrote:
Why is an RFP even necessary if there is a fixed outcome? Sounds like collusion. Might as well place the order right now.

I think another letter to your congressman is needed!
Delta has gone from having zero airbuses in their fleet to becoming within a very small period of time its largest North American customer!
And now they want to order more? Scandalous!
 
TerminalD
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 4:38 pm

FlyBigDeltaJets wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
Does anybody else think DL has way too many aircraft types already?


Nope, large airlines like DL/AA/UA have operation sizes that are of a critical mass that benefits more from having many fleets (and subfleets) of varying capacity rather than having fewer fleet types and not being able to better match capacity to demand.

But there are many examples of multiple types that serve the same capacity mission.
 
Okcflyer
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 4:59 pm

The intended mission profile must be better understood to predict who may have a technical upperhand on this order. Compared to the current generation, the neo and MAX are each optimized around slightly different mission profiles. The neo's larger diameter, heavier engines favor longer stage lengths where the enroute fuel burn advantage over the smaller, lighter MAX engines pays back. The MAX's smaller, lighter engines are optimized around shorter stage length with a lot of focus on lower engine maintenance cost per cycle. This come with a small fuel burn disadvantage at cruise.

Within the NEO family, the PW GTF is better on fuel but CFM is likely to win on maintenance and reliability. On longer stages, the PW provides technical and financial advantage, CFM probably jumps in front technically for the shorter avg stages.

A big unknown are synergies possible between a GTF A320 or A321 and the CS100/300. Is it enough to matter?

These factors are needed to better understand the technical advantages of the RFP. Of course, the technical advantages can be overridden through fincanical incentives and packaging when hungry. :).
 
Bostrom
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 5:13 pm

OA940 wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
For the 319/737-700 size, I'd guess the CS300 has a pretty good chance.


I would hope so. I'm a huge fan of the plane, and it has the range and better capabilities than the others. But many see it as a regional aircraft more.


I'm quite fond of the Cseries as well and would love to se a CS300-order, it seems like a great plane to replace A319 and 737-700, and maybe 717. Especially as Delta already has the CS100 on order.
Last edited by Bostrom on Sat May 20, 2017 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 5:24 pm

A big unknown are synergies possible between a GTF A320 or A321 and the CS100/300. Is it enough to matter?

This is a big part of the equation I think. There is a good chance DL will become an overhaul center for the PW1500G fitted to the CS100. Can the PW1100G be worked on the same line?
 
CRJ900
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 5:38 pm

[quote="Okcflyer"]The intended mission profile must be better understood to predict who may have a technical upperhand on this order. Compared to the current generation, the neo and MAX are each optimized around slightly different mission profiles. The neo's larger diameter, heavier engines favor longer stage lengths where the enroute fuel burn advantage over the smaller, lighter MAX engines pays back. The MAX's smaller, lighter engines are optimized around shorter stage length with a lot of focus on lower engine maintenance cost per cycle. This come with a small fuel burn disadvantage at cruise.
/quote]

Then Norwegian and SAS are in for a surprise... Norwegian has bought the B737 MAX 8 for 8-hour trans-Atlantic crossings while SAS use their A320NEO on mostly 50-minute OSL-ARN-CPH shuttle.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 6:10 pm

Andy33 wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Should be interesting. Delta has been barking about foreign carriers for quite some time and then throwing money at foreign manufacturers. Maybe Boeing stops the complaint about Bombardier "dumping" and the two can make up.


Which foreign manufacturers? After all, Airbus has its Mobile, Alabama plant turning out A320 series planes. Embraer doesn't have any product in the size range being discussed here (assuming the discussion has it right). That just leaves BBD as a foreign manufacturer, right - and Delta have already ordered CS100s.

Or are you expecting Sukhoi to leverage the alleged Russian connection in US politics?


That doesn't make Airbus a domestic manufacturer. They are still a foreign company with an American division. A BMW manufactured in the United States doesn't become an American car, it is still a German car.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 6:11 pm

CRJ900 wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
The intended mission profile must be better understood to predict who may have a technical upperhand on this order. Compared to the current generation, the neo and MAX are each optimized around slightly different mission profiles. The neo's larger diameter, heavier engines favor longer stage lengths where the enroute fuel burn advantage over the smaller, lighter MAX engines pays back. The MAX's smaller, lighter engines are optimized around shorter stage length with a lot of focus on lower engine maintenance cost per cycle. This come with a small fuel burn disadvantage at cruise.
/quote]

Then Norwegian and SAS are in for a surprise... Norwegian has bought the B737 MAX 8 for 8-hour trans-Atlantic crossings while SAS use their A320NEO on mostly 50-minute OSL-ARN-CPH shuttle.


Yea that doesn't sound right - in fact it's also the exact opposite of what Alaska plans to do with its 737/A320 fleet (yes current generation, but still)
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 6:28 pm

TerminalD wrote:
Does anybody else think DL has way too many aircraft types already?

No.

Not only are they enormous (world's 2nd largest airline) and can easily spread the cost in many ways; but DL is also a mtx provider for many types, thus the costs to them aren't as excessive as they may be to airlines who aren't.



micstatic wrote:
Boeing just likely royally pissed off Delta by the antidumping thing.

Corporations don't place multi-billion dollar orders based on emotion.
If Boeing's overall cost/benefit numbers are best, Boeing will win. If they aren't, then they won't.


USAirKid wrote:
Companies don't always have to put shareholders first.

The purpose for a corporation's existence is to maximize value for shareholders. There's no getting around that. Just because they can/do toss a bone to others, doesn't mean they're getting away from that core objective. Following the money will always reveal such to be the case.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
DLHAM
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 6:35 pm

CS300, launching CS500 and A321neo or 737MAX9 (or even 10). Would be pretty nice (the BBD part).
 
flyabr
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 7:08 pm

Why does the entire order have to go to 1 manufacturer? What about a split 738MAX/A321NEO? 738MAX to replace older A320s/738s/MD90s and A321NEO(LR)s to replace 757s. The CS300 is imo a given. How hungry are CFM/P&W to place next generation engines at DL??? Presuming P&W get their poop in a group concerning the GTF, would love to see more of those on DL birds!!
 
caljn
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 7:27 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
1337Delta764 wrote:
Why is an RFP even necessary if there is a fixed outcome? Sounds like collusion. Might as well place the order right now.

I think another letter to your congressman is needed!

Delta has gone from having zero airbuses in their fleet to becoming within a very small period of time its largest North American customer!
And now they want to order more? Scandalous!


Do ya think Delta's fleet has anything to do with the NW merger? Hmm...
 
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coronado
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 8:25 pm

IMHO they will fill the 150 a/c requirement with additional top off orders for an additional 20 or 30 737-900ER plus another 20 or 30 A321 ceo and then order 90-110 CS 300. I think they will then sit back and wait for MOM and A322 plans to get more fully fleshed out.
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 9:27 pm

TerminalD wrote:
Does anybody else think DL has way too many aircraft types already?

Internally even DL knows they have an issue with too many aircraft types. It's been like pouring gasoline during the recent operational meltdowns, and the glut of pilot retirements on the horizon are raising costs for movement among types and the subsequent re-training. DL's been trying to limit the pilot movement.


LAX772LR wrote:
Corporations don't place multi-billion dollar orders based on emotion.
If Boeing's overall cost/benefit numbers are best, Boeing will win. If they aren't, then they won't.


That's ridiculous thinking. Corporations are still run by humans, and all humans are emotional to some degree.

Actions speak louder than words. DL's actions over the past 5+ years certainly speak to emotional feelings for and against certain manufacturers that certainly affect their order decisions. It's not all about the dollars and cents.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sat May 20, 2017 9:42 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
DL's actions over the past 5+ years certainly speak to emotional feelings for and against certain manufacturers that certainly affect their order decisions. It's not all about the dollars and cents.

You speak of ridiculous, yet make such a conclusion as this?

For the most part, Airbus has had the product+availability+price that DL wanted. Full stop.
That pendulum will swing back to Boeing at some point. And then again to Airbus.

Emotion plays no part in that. That's AvGeek nonsense, not Corporate though patterns. If any part of that were accurate, you'd never see AA with an Airbus product or UA with a GE product again.... oh, wait. :roll:
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 1:15 am

MrHMSH wrote:
1337Delta764 wrote:
The analysts don't see the order in Boeing's favour


The analysts aren't always right. As mentioned above, there are agendas at play.

and looking at Boeing's recent track record with DL, it seems that DL has lately made fleet decisions mostly on politics rather than price or technical merit.


I'm almost certain price is the main driver of DL's purchases, given their reputation and the nature of their recent procurements. What fleet decisions have been made on politics and not price or technical merit that you are talking about?

Exactly, price drives DL more than other airlines. Their strategy weights CAPEX heavily.

They have bought plenty of Boeing Airframes in the past. DL is brutal in negotiations. Partially as they always have the option of the used market.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 1:57 am

lightsaber wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
1337Delta764 wrote:
The analysts don't see the order in Boeing's favour


The analysts aren't always right. As mentioned above, there are agendas at play.

and looking at Boeing's recent track record with DL, it seems that DL has lately made fleet decisions mostly on politics rather than price or technical merit.


I'm almost certain price is the main driver of DL's purchases, given their reputation and the nature of their recent procurements. What fleet decisions have been made on politics and not price or technical merit that you are talking about?

Exactly, price drives DL more than other airlines. Their strategy weights CAPEX heavily.

They have bought plenty of Boeing Airframes in the past. DL is brutal in negotiations. Partially as they always have the option of the used market.

Lightsaber


I suspect Bastian, in particular, is going to be far more dollars and cents driven than most - even, as stated, DL is already very price driven to control CAPEX. Bastian is an CPA - Anderson was a litigator, they will have different approaches, but may ultimately drive the same price.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 2:21 am

LAX772LR wrote:
You speak of ridiculous, yet make such a conclusion as this?

For the most part, Airbus has had the product+availability+price that DL wanted. Full stop.
That pendulum will swing back to Boeing at some point. And then again to Airbus.

Emotion plays no part in that. That's AvGeek nonsense, not Corporate though patterns. If any part of that were accurate, you'd never see AA with an Airbus product or UA with a GE product again.... oh, wait.

Yep. Because I'd rather debate in facts than nonsense that sounds good. You can eye roll all you want. It just makes you look childish.

Here's a quiz for you. When you make any purchase in life, from a jug of milk to a new car, is the final decision always ONLY about dollars and cents versus utility? In other words, emotional feelings about one item versus another, or one company versus another, are completely out of the picture. There's no "I like this one better" for any reason besides price/utility ratio. No "this one has treated me well, so I'll get it again". No "this one just sounds right". No "I trust the relationship we have, so I'll buy here".

I dare you to say yes. I also dare you to say that the unprecedented public dislike shown and noticeable lack of large business transactions in the past five or so years between Delta and Boeing won't influence Delta's upcoming purchasing decision in any way.

You see, simple logic tells us it's not all about dollars and cents. Your belief isn't grounded in reality.
 
gonnagetbumpy
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 3:42 am

MSPNWA wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
You speak of ridiculous, yet make such a conclusion as this?

For the most part, Airbus has had the product+availability+price that DL wanted. Full stop.
That pendulum will swing back to Boeing at some point. And then again to Airbus.

Emotion plays no part in that. That's AvGeek nonsense, not Corporate though patterns. If any part of that were accurate, you'd never see AA with an Airbus product or UA with a GE product again.... oh, wait.

Yep. Because I'd rather debate in facts than nonsense that sounds good. You can eye roll all you want. It just makes you look childish.

Here's a quiz for you. When you make any purchase in life, from a jug of milk to a new car, is the final decision always ONLY about dollars and cents versus utility? In other words, emotional feelings about one item versus another, or one company versus another, are completely out of the picture. There's no "I like this one better" for any reason besides price/utility ratio. No "this one has treated me well, so I'll get it again". No "this one just sounds right". No "I trust the relationship we have, so I'll buy here".

I dare you to say yes. I also dare you to say that the unprecedented public dislike shown and noticeable lack of large business transactions in the past five or so years between Delta and Boeing won't influence Delta's upcoming purchasing decision in any way.

You see, simple logic tells us it's not all about dollars and cents. Your belief isn't grounded in reality.

I think your belief isn't ground in reality. A corporate purchase is vasty different than a personal purchase. You seem to know very little about corporate business and most of your posts show this.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 873
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 3:49 am

gonnagetbumpy wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
You speak of ridiculous, yet make such a conclusion as this?

For the most part, Airbus has had the product+availability+price that DL wanted. Full stop.
That pendulum will swing back to Boeing at some point. And then again to Airbus.

Emotion plays no part in that. That's AvGeek nonsense, not Corporate though patterns. If any part of that were accurate, you'd never see AA with an Airbus product or UA with a GE product again.... oh, wait.

Yep. Because I'd rather debate in facts than nonsense that sounds good. You can eye roll all you want. It just makes you look childish.

Here's a quiz for you. When you make any purchase in life, from a jug of milk to a new car, is the final decision always ONLY about dollars and cents versus utility? In other words, emotional feelings about one item versus another, or one company versus another, are completely out of the picture. There's no "I like this one better" for any reason besides price/utility ratio. No "this one has treated me well, so I'll get it again". No "this one just sounds right". No "I trust the relationship we have, so I'll buy here".

I dare you to say yes. I also dare you to say that the unprecedented public dislike shown and noticeable lack of large business transactions in the past five or so years between Delta and Boeing won't influence Delta's upcoming purchasing decision in any way.

You see, simple logic tells us it's not all about dollars and cents. Your belief isn't grounded in reality.

I think your belief isn't ground in reality. A corporate purchase is vasty different than a personal purchase. You seem to know very little about corporate business and most of your posts show this.


I've come to just ignore anything he posts relating to DL - it will never be grounded in reality.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 3836
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 3:52 am

ytz wrote:
Bombardier needs a launch customer for the CS500.....


Bingo. I seriously think the 300 would be the most viable option. I would not be surprised if this is a strong possibility.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 6:05 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Here's a quiz for you. When you make any purchase in life, from a jug of milk to a new car, is the final decision always ONLY about dollars and cents versus utility?

An even better question would be: why do you continue to conflate personal finances with corporate CapEx?
The two are not remotely similar, regardless of your assertion to the contrary.

Even a master of emotionally-targeted promotion, Richard Branson, knew better than to let patently ridiculous emotional appeals (e.g. "4engines4longhaul!") influence his company's ACTUAL purchases. If you don't believe that, then tell us about all those 4holers that are incoming into VS these days.

AA in a bitter dispute with Airbus over AA587, including public blame shifting... orders more Airbuses.
UA in a bitter dispute with GE over UA232... plenty of GE flying with UA.
DL hated RR for the delays on the L10 program... now they're a freakin' approved mtx company for RR


Emotion has no part of this in publicly-owned shareholder-responsible airlines. Heck, even government-owned carriers rarely deviate from that norm:
MS in a dispute with Boeing that continues to this day, over MS990... orders more Boeings.




gonnagetbumpy wrote:
A corporate purchase is vasty different than a personal purchase. You seem to know very little about corporate business and most of your posts show this.

Gotta agree. That's the inherent flaw in his analysis.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 1968
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 6:34 am

LAX772LR wrote:
AA in a bitter dispute with Airbus over AA587, including public blame shifting... orders more Airbuses.


Granted, AA didn't order for another 12-13 years if my timetable is right I may be wrong
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 7:06 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
AA in a bitter dispute with Airbus over AA587, including public blame shifting... orders more Airbuses.

Granted, AA didn't order for another 12-13 years if my timetable is right I may be wrong

It was just over 9.5yrs (July 2011)... and it should be noted that AA also didn't make any significant (i.e. beyond 1 or 2 units at a time) orders from Boeing for 7 of those years either.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
P1aneMad
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 7:14 am

caljn wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
1337Delta764 wrote:
Why is an RFP even necessary if there is a fixed outcome? Sounds like collusion. Might as well place the order right now.

I think another letter to your congressman is needed!

Delta has gone from having zero airbuses in their fleet to becoming within a very small period of time its largest North American customer!
And now they want to order more? Scandalous!


Do ya think Delta's fleet has anything to do with the NW merger? Hmm...

I clearly wrote customer, not just operator. DL over the last few years has ordered every Airbus except for the A380.
 
ytz
Posts: 3083
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Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 7:40 am

scbriml wrote:
So you think a company in dire straits will respond to an RFP this summer with a plane that doesn't exist? :scratchchin:


Humour just doesn't go well in this forum...
 
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scbriml
Posts: 14413
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 8:39 am

ytz wrote:
Humour just doesn't go well in this forum...


It goes just fine with one of these - :) :D :rotfl: :biggrin:

:wink2:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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MrHMSH
Posts: 1825
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 11:45 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Yep. Because I'd rather debate in facts than nonsense that sounds good. You can eye roll all you want. It just makes you look childish.

Here's a quiz for you. When you make any purchase in life, from a jug of milk to a new car, is the final decision always ONLY about dollars and cents versus utility? In other words, emotional feelings about one item versus another, or one company versus another, are completely out of the picture. There's no "I like this one better" for any reason besides price/utility ratio. No "this one has treated me well, so I'll get it again". No "this one just sounds right". No "I trust the relationship we have, so I'll buy here".

I dare you to say yes. I also dare you to say that the unprecedented public dislike shown and noticeable lack of large business transactions in the past five or so years between Delta and Boeing won't influence Delta's upcoming purchasing decision in any way.

You see, simple logic tells us it's not all about dollars and cents. Your belief isn't grounded in reality.


There's a world of difference between someone buying something from a supermarket or buying a car and an airline buying airliners. The nature of having to order it years in advance rather than just turning up and buying something to use daily is stark. If emotion plays a role, it's marginal at best. The standards that Airbus or Boeing have to meet are very high, and based a lot around numbers. DL don't just whistle up the standards, they're decided on by a lot of people, because they don't want emotion to come into it. Now DL may have beef with Boeing, but would they turn down a Boeing offer if the price was better than Airbus, and they delivered a product that equals or betters Airbus'? Of course not.

Your logic really doesn't apply to this situation, it's just not comparable.
 
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JetBuddy
Posts: 1506
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 11:51 am

The CS300 is a perfect MD-88 replacement, and with CS100 in the orderbooks already it would be a great fit. Don't know if they could be delivered fast enough, but the Boeing and Airbus orderbooks are pretty much packed as well. There's a rumor this will be MAX 10, so who knows. Maybe a split order.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 5442
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Delta to issue RFP for up to 150 Narrowbodies?

Sun May 21, 2017 12:09 pm

OA940 wrote:
If it's A320/738 size, then the MAX will probably win. It has superior capacity and range, and can already be delivered, which might be a factor for them. If its 321/739 size, the neo has a clear advantage, in that it's superior and has currently the best 757 replacement. Then again, 319/73G size is anyone's guess. But they have some old 150-seaters from Northwest.


There are just 100 fewer A320neo ordered, 3,618, than all versions of the 737MAX together 3,714, so in regards of sales numbers the airlines seem not to accept the advantage of the 737-8 over the A320neo. A320neo series orders have reached 5,054 frames.

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