Dab747
Topic Author
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:22 pm

Fifth freedom flights of the past

Fri May 19, 2017 2:39 am

Before the introduction of ultra long range jetliners, most international carriers need to refuel enroute. Many stops might have been technical stops and prohibited transport of passengers between certain points. What were some of the more interesting 5th freedom flights of the 60s and 70s. I remember multiple international airlines flew between New York and London including JL, LY, AI, KU, QF, (and if I'm not mistaken, CX appled for the right but it was never granted). What 5th freedom flight between the US and Europe might work well if permitted? I know EK flies MXP-EWR and soon ATH-EWR. SQ flies FRA-JFK. Any others that might be successful?
 
jeffrey1970
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2001 1:41 am

Re: Fifth freedom flights of the past

Fri May 19, 2017 3:25 am

I know Pan Am used to have a lot of fifth freedom flights all over the place. Northwest used to have fifth freedom flights out of AMS and NRT. TWA had TLV.
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 4954
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Fifth freedom flights of the past

Fri May 19, 2017 3:15 pm

I think that it is a misconception that fifth freedom flights are are something abnormal. In the older days they were pretty common and included in most bilaterals. As new bilaterals have usually included rather more than less freedom, I assume that most bilaterals still include fifth freedom rights and if an airline wants to start those flights it should be easy to get acceptance by the authorities in most parts of the world, with of course exceptions, like for example China.
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: Fifth freedom flights of the past

Fri May 19, 2017 3:27 pm

My mom used to work AMS-BOM and AMS-DEL all the time for NW. And this wasn't way back when but back in 2004 or so.
 
raylee67
Posts: 219
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: Fifth freedom flights of the past

Fri May 19, 2017 3:35 pm

Dab747 wrote:
Before the introduction of ultra long range jetliners, most international carriers need to refuel enroute. Many stops might have been technical stops and prohibited transport of passengers between certain points. What were some of the more interesting 5th freedom flights of the 60s and 70s. I remember multiple international airlines flew between New York and London including JL, LY, AI, KU, QF, (and if I'm not mistaken, CX appled for the right but it was never granted). What 5th freedom flight between the US and Europe might work well if permitted? I know EK flies MXP-EWR and soon ATH-EWR. SQ flies FRA-JFK. Any others that might be successful?


For these 5th freedom flights to work, the airline usually needs to provide a very attractive price, lowering the yield. The is because on busy routes, the home carriers will be offering multiple frequencies while the 5th freedom carrier typically can only do once a day, making it difficult to compete against the home carriers, so competing by price becomes essential, and then that makes it not very attractive for the 5th freedom carriers. On less busy routes, it basically implies there are not a lot of passengers flying between those points to make it attractive to home carriers. So although the 5th freedom carriers face less direct competitions in those cases, it is really operating in a limited market.

For US-EU:
I think Air India used to have (or still has) JFK-LHR. I am not sure if the flight originates from BOM or DEL.
Kuwait Airways just dropped JFK-LHR last year since they are unwilling to transport passengers with Israeli passports.
Malaysia Airlines has tried ARN-JFK (as continuation of KUL-ARN) but that was a disaster.
Air NZ still flies daily to London via LAX, so the flight is AKL-LAX-LHR. It's apparently quite successful given it has been around for ages, while NZ dropped its twice weekly AKL-LAX-FRA.
EK tried HAM-JFK too. Not sure if it is still around.
Biman Bangladesh used to do BRU-JFK once or twice a week as a continuation of DAC-BRU, but that was a disaster like MAS's venture.
319 320 321 332 333 342 343 345 388 707 717 732 736 738 739 74R 742 743 744 74E 748 757 762 763 772 77E 77L 773 77W D10 M80 135 140 145 175 190 DH1 DH4 CRJ CR7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
raylee67
Posts: 219
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: Fifth freedom flights of the past

Fri May 19, 2017 3:42 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I think that it is a misconception that fifth freedom flights are are something abnormal. In the older days they were pretty common and included in most bilaterals. As new bilaterals have usually included rather more than less freedom, I assume that most bilaterals still include fifth freedom rights and if an airline wants to start those flights it should be easy to get acceptance by the authorities in most parts of the world, with of course exceptions, like for example China.

Not necessarily. I think China is quite liberal in granting 5th rights thru any airports except PVG/SHA, PEK and CAN. Many years ago, it states that it will grant overseas airlines 5th rights, and they started the policy by opening up Haikou and Sanya first. Of course no one took that up since it's probably not going to be profitable.

However, even for the 3 main airports, China has granted 5th rights. Jet Airways has done BOM-PVG-SFO with 77W. You would think it should work, but it turns out it's a financial ruin and Jet Airways dropped the route.

And many countries which are protective of their own airlines, such as India, grant 5th rights too. For example, CX has been flying HKG-BKK-BOM-DXB for ages, with 707, then L10, then 747, then A330.
319 320 321 332 333 342 343 345 388 707 717 732 736 738 739 74R 742 743 744 74E 748 757 762 763 772 77E 77L 773 77W D10 M80 135 140 145 175 190 DH1 DH4 CRJ CR7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: Fifth freedom flights of the past

Fri May 19, 2017 3:59 pm

raylee67 wrote:

For US-EU:
I think Air India used to have (or still has) JFK-LHR. I am not sure if the flight originates from BOM or DEL.
Kuwait Airways just dropped JFK-LHR last year since they are unwilling to transport passengers with Israeli passports.
Malaysia Airlines has tried ARN-JFK (as continuation of KUL-ARN) but that was a disaster.
Air NZ still flies daily to London via LAX, so the flight is AKL-LAX-LHR. It's apparently quite successful given it has been around for ages, while NZ dropped its twice weekly AKL-LAX-FRA.
EK tried HAM-JFK too. Not sure if it is still around.
Biman Bangladesh used to do BRU-JFK once or twice a week as a continuation of DAC-BRU, but that was a disaster like MAS's venture.


Air India recently started EWR-LHR-AMD. I think AI has gone through a number of US-EU 5th freedom connections. A decade back I took EWR-CDG-BOM on AI.

EK stoped HAM-JFK, but now has MXP-JFK which started out as a 77W but was upgauged a while back to A380.

In NYC area, there is still the JFK-FRA-SIN route on SQ that used to alternate capacity seasonally but now is pretty much A380 year-round.
 
ASQ400
Posts: 177
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:21 am

Re: Fifth freedom flights of the past

Fri May 19, 2017 5:44 pm

5th Freedom flights are still around, but some of them seem to have a different purpose.
Back in the day (80's and before) , longer routes needed a stopover, and fifth freedom rights were given to make these routes work better.
Fast forward to present: most routes can be done nonstop. Exceptions being primarily eastern Australia to Europe, and east coast US to Australia.

While some 5th freedom flights are in routes like these (where the airline actually doesn't have the metal for nonstop, others fly 5th freedom in routes they fly nonstop as well. They do this to pick up a dime on the 5th freedom leg .
An example is EK's notorious DXB-MXP-JFK,. which exists even though EK has multiple nonstop frequencies to JFK.
The purpose: pick up MXP-JFK traffic with EK's superior, subsidized product
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Fifth freedom flights of the past

Fri May 19, 2017 6:18 pm

Nobody mentions Uzbekistan Airways' TAS-RIX-JFK flight... Soon going just weekly, but still... Or ET on ADD-DUB-LAX.
And the MH flight mentioned above was KUL-ARN-EWR, not JFK.
 
TWA85
Posts: 295
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:06 pm

Re: Fifth freedom flights of the past

Fri May 19, 2017 7:05 pm

Here's a good site of old airline route networks over the years. Back in in 1985 most major airlines had extensive fifth freedom flights between Europe and Asia.

https://airlineroutes.wordpress.com/category/198586/
 
VCy
Posts: 368
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:01 am

Re: Fifth freedom flights of the past

Fri May 19, 2017 7:14 pm

GF had Bahrain-Larnaca-JFK in the 90s.
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: Fifth freedom flights of the past

Fri May 19, 2017 7:18 pm

VCy wrote:
GF had Bahrain-Larnaca-JFK in the 90s.


Also GF had JFK-GVA-BAH I believe (took this flight, but was rather young so may be wrong on the destination of hte Europe stop).
 
thegoldenargosy
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:14 am

Re: Fifth freedom flights of the past

Fri May 19, 2017 8:05 pm

Delta:
FRA-BOM
CDG-BOM
AMS-BOM
ACC-ROB
ACC-ABV

United:
SEL-KIX
SEL-MNL
SEL-NRT
AKL-MEL
LHR-BRU
HKG-DEL
DEL-LHR
 
User avatar
lesfalls
Posts: 2962
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Fifth freedom flights of the past

Fri May 19, 2017 8:25 pm

AA at a certain point flew HAM-BRU.
My Instagram account: @Jfkairlinespotting
 
sq256
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:37 am

Re: Fifth freedom flights of the past

Fri May 19, 2017 8:30 pm

QF had CGK-SIN, SIN-BKK, BKK-HKG & AKL-LAX in the 90s/early 00s.

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