FT says China’s Comac and banks are in talks with Bombardier regarding tie-up that could see Chinese partner inject new life into the Canadian company’s debt-laden commercial aerospace arm as buys a "significant" stake in BBD aviation programs.
Per sources "Everything is on the table."
Comac and Bombardier have maintained relations for many years as companies have cooperated on projects including the C919 and CSeries to reduce training and maintenance costs. China is already a key supplier on the C Series. The aircraft’s fuselage is built by Shenyang Aircraft Corp., a subsidiary of state-owned aviation company.
Chinese group in talks to aid struggling jet maker Bombardier
https://www.ft.com/content/0003ce56-3ba ... 27b8a20f23
China’s Comac eyes investment in Bombardier
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... e35043525/
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Might make for an interesting outcome and help create path to resolve the morass BBD.
Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Re: Comac in talks to acquire Bombardier aviation business stake
LAXintl wrote:The aircraft’s fuselage is built by Shenyang Aircraft Corp., a subsidiary of state-owned aviation company.
Ha. Nope. They've been trying very hard --- but quality is shocking.
The fuse are all being built in Belfast - projection has went from 0, to the first 20, to more and eventually the latest is the first 400 frames - but that is likely to become the entire run.
Re: Comac in talks to acquire Bombardier aviation business stake
Could be good outcome for Bombardier to find partner with deep pockets and also might help open door to Chinese orders for various family aircraft.
Re: Comac in talks to acquire Bombardier aviation business stake
mercure1 wrote:Could be good outcome for Bombardier to find partner with deep pockets and also might help open door to Chinese orders for various family aircraft.
Or it could just be a way for the Chinese to rip off the CSeries...
A better partner would be someone like Boeing, Airbus, or even Lockheed and Dassault. An investment in BBD for the later 2 would be a good way to get their foot back in the commercial aviation sector.
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- SonomaFlyer
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Re: Comac in talks to acquire Bombardier aviation business stake
Bombardier may not have a lot of options as far as tie ups are concerned. Despite an excellent product, they are struggling to gain traction in a crowded aviation marketplace. I don't see Boeing or Airbus pitching this kind of venture; Lockheed or Dassault would be interesting options but I don't know if they have the cash/credit access or the taste for that kind of risk.
Re: Comac in talks to acquire Bombardier aviation business stake
Amiga500 wrote:LAXintl wrote:The aircraft’s fuselage is built by Shenyang Aircraft Corp., a subsidiary of state-owned aviation company.
Ha. Nope. They've been trying very hard --- but quality is shocking.
The fuse are all being built in Belfast - projection has went from 0, to the first 20, to more and eventually the latest is the first 400 frames - but that is likely to become the entire run.
true except the aft section is still made in China and send to Belfast.
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- Revelation
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Re: Comac in talks to acquire Bombardier aviation business stake
Eventually Chinese interests will own everything else, so why not this?
To think of the stink that went up when Dubai wanted to own port handling at a few US harbors..
To think of the stink that went up when Dubai wanted to own port handling at a few US harbors..
Re: Comac in talks to acquire Bombardier aviation business stake
So does this mean we should expect a C Series knockoff available for sale in the year 2035???
Re: Comac in talks to acquire Bombardier aviation business stake
TWA772LR wrote:mercure1 wrote:Could be good outcome for Bombardier to find partner with deep pockets and also might help open door to Chinese orders for various family aircraft.
Or it could just be a way for the Chinese to rip off the CSeries...
A better partner would be someone like Boeing, Airbus, or even Lockheed and Dassault. An investment in BBD for the later 2 would be a good way to get their foot back in the commercial aviation sector.
A better outcome would be to partner with anyone else... but no one else is stupid enough to invest in Bombardier. Just look at how controversial it was for the fed/state government to bailout bombardier ... it doesn't exactly inspire confidence for would-be investors... not that there are many investors with deep enough pockets and 50-year investment horizon anyway
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- Wayfarer515
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Re: Comac in talks to acquire Bombardier aviation business stake
Anyone else smart enough will await for this ship to sink even further and buy them on the cheap, they should take the Chinese offer before its too late.
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- BawliBooch
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Re: Comac in talks to acquire Bombardier aviation business stake
Big security risk here.
Hope Canada puts rules in place to block the sale of national assets like Bombardier that would allow the proliferation of Western technology.
Hope Canada puts rules in place to block the sale of national assets like Bombardier that would allow the proliferation of Western technology.
Re: Comac in talks to acquire Bombardier aviation business stake
BawliBooch wrote:Big security risk here.
Hope Canada puts rules in place to block the sale of national assets like Bombardier that would allow the proliferation of Western technology.
What security-sensitive technology is there in the CSeries?
Re: Comac in talks to acquire Bombardier aviation business stake
flyingcat wrote:So does this mean we should expect a C Series knockoff available for sale in the year 2035???
That's too far out in the future to be of much benefit to them. From specialist media reports, they're already flight testing a decent enough airliner. Maybe deduct a decade from your timeline?
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- iamlucky13
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Re: Comac in talks to acquire Bombardier aviation business stake
flyingcat wrote:So does this mean we should expect a C Series knockoff available for sale in the year 2035???
Why bother with a knockoff? If they're buying a stake in the program, they could almost certainly much more readily negotiate that to include rights to work-share or even a domestic final assembly line than to go through the effort of making a knock-off of an already modern aircraft. The labor resources of both companies would arguably be more productively put to work on the C929 or whatever the next project ends up being called.
Based on both the work relocation prospects and on discussions with people who have done business with both companies, I hope for the sake of Bombardier's employees that Bombardier is able to move forward without tying the knot with Comac.
I'm also not sure the CSeries long term success will really be more certain under Comac's management. I'd much rather see Bombardier address their issues on their own, including achieving an equitable governance arrangement between the Beaudoin family and the investors whose willingness to accept the risk of continued investment in Bombardier has arguably been of massive benefit to the family.
SonomaFlyer wrote:Despite an excellent product, they are struggling to gain traction in a crowded aviation marketplace.
Market traction isn't critical quite yet. Their current orders outstanding amount to a very reasonable backlog even considering a healthy ramp up.
Cash flow is the near term concern. They'll burn through a non-trivial amount more cash ramping up production rates and driving down unit costs before the program is generating positive cash flow, and they need to get the cash flow to the point where it can also support future product development or improvement.
And until a production ramp-up trend is demonstrated, airlines considering an order will have an extremely difficult time with their medium term fleet planning. As it stands, we can't really talk about a production ramp-up trend. Long term reliability will also continue to be a question mark for several more years.
Re: Comac in talks to acquire Bombardier aviation business stake
I wonder what a tie-up with/equity stake from Comac would mean for the development of a larger Cseries (eg CS500). On the one hand one might say, BBD's superior manufacturing techniques combined with the much needed cash from China could be a argument for its future development (this might be the reason BBD has - if they were the ones who initiated the talks with Comac - approached the Chinese company). On the other hand, why build a model that competes with the 919 and 929? BBD has previously mentioned during their China tour (with the CS300) that the plane perfectly complements Comac's offering.
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