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JannEejit
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Fri May 19, 2017 8:00 am

Channex757 wrote:
Those early examples have to have their own certification as they do not conform to production standard A380s. That means they also cost a lot more to insure as they are classed as rarities.

Better for SQ to replace them with lighter, production standard A380s with the latest updates. It does mean that remarketing them will be difficult. I can see these being broken for spares as there will be eager buyers. Airbus supplied parts don't come cheap; nor do Boeing.


Old, non standard, rarities. Great museum potential I'd say...
 
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zeke
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Fri May 19, 2017 8:12 am

What is the news here ? they had already telegraphed that the order of 5 were to replace the original 5.
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Arion640
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Fri May 19, 2017 8:48 am

Bald1983 wrote:
[url][/url]
Arion640 wrote:
Although they are the heavier jets without the wing twist, I'm sure if the price was right BA would be looking at them as they have RR engines.

But lets not forgot, SQ still have more to be delivered.


I believe that British Airways would base their decision on whether the plane fits in its business. I suspect that they would not and they will opt for twins.


Don't be too sure, Willie has said in the past they could do with a few more if the price is right and if they are used. He's said it a few times. Just in this case BA/IAG are the odd airline out who would prefer quads over twins. Possibly.
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Arion640
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Fri May 19, 2017 8:50 am

Bald1983 wrote:
[url][/url]
Arion640 wrote:
Although they are the heavier jets without the wing twist, I'm sure if the price was right BA would be looking at them as they have RR engines.

But lets not forgot, SQ still have more to be delivered.


I believe that British Airways would base their decision on whether the plane fits in its business. I suspect that they would not and they will opt for twins.


Oh so ANA opted for twins too did they?

Don't be too sure, Willie has said in the past they could do with a few more if the price is right and if they are used. He's said it a few times. Just in this case BA/IAG are the odd airline out who would prefer quads over twins. Possibly.
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Stitch
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Sat May 20, 2017 12:06 am

Arion640 wrote:
Oh so ANA opted for twins too did they?


Well they did order the 777-9. ;)

And there is a belief that ANA was required to take the A380's built and on order for Skymark to secure Airbus' consent to assume control of Skymark's assets (Airbus was the lead creditor for Skymark) and not because ANA had a strong need for them in the fleet.
 
Arion640
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Sat May 20, 2017 12:14 am

Stitch wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Oh so ANA opted for twins too did they?


Well they did order the 777-9. ;)

And there is a belief that ANA was required to take the A380's built and on order for Skymark to secure Airbus' consent to assume control of Skymark's assets (Airbus was the lead creditor for Skymark) and not because ANA had a strong need for them in the fleet.


I've heard that story. But I'm sure a conversion or a deal for A350's could have worked just as well.
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RL777
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Sat May 20, 2017 12:30 am

Arion640 wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Oh so ANA opted for twins too did they?


Well they did order the 777-9. ;)

And there is a belief that ANA was required to take the A380's built and on order for Skymark to secure Airbus' consent to assume control of Skymark's assets (Airbus was the lead creditor for Skymark) and not because ANA had a strong need for them in the fleet.


I've heard that story. But I'm sure a conversion or a deal for A350's could have worked just as well.


A350s would make little sense for NH at this point, with large 777/787 operations and orders a small sub-fleet really wouldn't be ideal nor would it fill a market that isn't already served by the Boeing aircraft. I think ANA needed to take on the A380 due to the Skymark creditor issue. That being said, the A380 should work well for NH on the Hawaiian routes.
 
Arion640
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Sat May 20, 2017 12:55 am

RL777 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Stitch wrote:

Well they did order the 777-9. ;)

And there is a belief that ANA was required to take the A380's built and on order for Skymark to secure Airbus' consent to assume control of Skymark's assets (Airbus was the lead creditor for Skymark) and not because ANA had a strong need for them in the fleet.


I've heard that story. But I'm sure a conversion or a deal for A350's could have worked just as well.


A350s would make little sense for NH at this point, with large 777/787 operations and orders a small sub-fleet really wouldn't be ideal nor would it fill a market that isn't already served by the Boeing aircraft. I think ANA needed to take on the A380 due to the Skymark creditor issue. That being said, the A380 should work well for NH on the Hawaiian routes.


Its the same argument for the A380, a small sub fleet that makes little sense. Its like Air France is converting A380's to A350's, I'm sure they could of done a deal for A350's if they had wanted them. BA have 50+ 777's and 787's in service but are choosing to take the A350 + hinting about more A380's.
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RL777
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Sat May 20, 2017 1:55 am

Arion640 wrote:
RL777 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

I've heard that story. But I'm sure a conversion or a deal for A350's could have worked just as well.


A350s would make little sense for NH at this point, with large 777/787 operations and orders a small sub-fleet really wouldn't be ideal nor would it fill a market that isn't already served by the Boeing aircraft. I think ANA needed to take on the A380 due to the Skymark creditor issue. That being said, the A380 should work well for NH on the Hawaiian routes.


Its the same argument for the A380, a small sub fleet that makes little sense. Its like Air France is converting A380's to A350's, I'm sure they could of done a deal for A350's if they had wanted them. BA have 50+ 777's and 787's in service but are choosing to take the A350 + hinting about more A380's.


I do agree with you, and when the decision was announced I was very surprised and still am. That being said, NH don't have anything close capacity wise to an A380 in their current or future fleet plans (777-9s will likely be low density config like their 77Ws). As for the BA argument, they are a fairly rare example of an airline who operates many "competing" types.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Sat May 20, 2017 12:42 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Oh so ANA opted for twins too did they?


Well they did order the 777-9. ;)

And there is a belief that ANA was required to take the A380's built and on order for Skymark to secure Airbus' consent to assume control of Skymark's assets (Airbus was the lead creditor for Skymark) and not because ANA had a strong need for them in the fleet.


I've heard that story. But I'm sure a conversion or a deal for A350's could have worked just as well.


Why? Airbus is not having any problems selling the A350 yet they are having problems selling the A380, so Airbus would greatly prefer to sell A380s.
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goosebayguy
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Sat May 20, 2017 6:20 pm

Its pretty obvious that Delta will take these frames :-)
 
Bald1983
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Sat May 20, 2017 11:47 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Bald1983 wrote:
[url][/url]
Arion640 wrote:
Although they are the heavier jets without the wing twist, I'm sure if the price was right BA would be looking at them as they have RR engines.

But lets not forgot, SQ still have more to be delivered.


I believe that British Airways would base their decision on whether the plane fits in its business. I suspect that they would not and they will opt for twins.


Oh so ANA opted for twins too did they?

Don't be too sure, Willie has said in the past they could do with a few more if the price is right and if they are used. He's said it a few times. Just in this case BA/IAG are the odd airline out who would prefer quads over twins. Possibly.


ANA ordered a whopping three A-380's. The have ordered 58 787's. You may be right but the twins won.
 
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RayChuang
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Sun May 21, 2017 12:15 am

I wouldn't be surprised these five A380's will likely be converted to VIP configuration. The governments of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait or the UAE might take them as governmental-use transports.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Sun May 21, 2017 12:23 am

RayChuang wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised these five A380's will likely be converted to VIP configuration. The governments of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait or the UAE might take them as governmental-use transports.


One would suspect one of them could have taken the already-existing A380CJ for that role. I believe there is also a 747-8 VIP that was NTU and available.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Sun May 21, 2017 1:01 am

r2rho wrote:
Nothing really new for a.net... just that now it is publicly confirmed. As expected, SQ maintains its total A380 fleet size at 19, and returns the 5 early frames as they come off lease and new ones arrive.

Are these five, all early overweight birds?


Yes, those 5 are among the earliest frames. They are not overweight though, but within the weight spec of the time, which is a couple tons above A380s coming off the line today. They do not have the wing twist mod either, nor the new galley cooling system and others, and have lower reliability.
But that's not really the main issue. The main issue is that they are the "hand-built" re-wired frames, which should make cabin refurbishing costs even more prohibitive than usual.

Taking these factors into account, it is perfectly understandable that SQ will offload them when their leases expire. The problem for the lessor now is who will be willing to take these early, non-standard frames. They may in fact be worth more as parts.

The hand built wire adds millions to the overhaul costs. Mid to high single digits. Combined with everything else, I understand replacing these frames. It is sad. But I fully expect the hand wired frames to be early beer cans.

The A380 needs new engines, new wingtip treatments, and maybe a stretch. If more sold, the resale market would improve thanks to economy of scale discounts.

But nothing will save early frames unless the initial operator pays for the required rewiring. With the surplus of used 77Ws, only the best A380s will find second hand operators.


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flee
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Sun May 21, 2017 2:22 am

I think the only use for these frames is short term or one off charters. They are good to supplement peak period capacity - the rest of the time, they can sit in the hangar!
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Sun May 21, 2017 6:27 am

flee wrote:
I think the only use for these frames is short term or one off charters. They are good to supplement peak period capacity - the rest of the time, they can sit in the hangar!


For who?

I do think for these early frames It will be a hard sell to anyone, hope I'm wrong though.
 
luftaom
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Tue May 23, 2017 8:12 am

vhtje wrote:
325i wrote:
Question? Given QF has a backlog of 8 frames and the reference that they are not interested in anymore, could they be in the frame for doing an SQ. This presumption is based on whether they own or lease the currant fleet.Speculation is on.


No, because Qantas own their A380 aircraft. Strictly speaking, they are leased, but they are owned by a Qantas subsidiary and then leased to Qantas Airways. For examole VH-OQA is owned by QF BOC 2008-1 Pty Ltd, which is a subsidiary of Qantas. It's an accounting setup, presumably done for tax purposes.

http://www.aussieairliners.org/a380/vh-oqa/vhoqa.html


I don't think that you can rule out them leasing additional aircraft just because QF own their existing fleet of A380s. I'm not saying that I think that it is likely that QF will take on additional aircraft (indeed I think that it is probably unlikely) but the fact that QF own their A380s I don't think is determinative.

The reason that each aircraft (or sometimes although much less frequently a small group of aircraft) is owned by a different company is generally for banking security reasons (as opposed to tax). Having the aircraft owned by a 'clean' company makes it easier to give security over the aircraft and the shares in the holding company - which is what the banks loaning money for the aircraft will require.
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travelhound
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Tue May 23, 2017 10:40 am

I suspect these aircraft did not meet contractual specifications and as such there was an option agreement between Airbus and Singapore Airlines to replace these aircraft with new builds. As such, these five older aircraft are being replaced by new build aircraft.

If this is the case the economics foe replacing these aircraft with new may be more favourable than keeping the aircraft, updating the interiors and taking the aircraft and engines through a major overhaul.

If there is an agreement for Airbus to cover the cost for new interiors, than again there could be real merit in SQ returning these aircraft.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Tue May 23, 2017 11:28 am

travelhound wrote:
I suspect these aircraft did not meet contractual specifications and as such there was an option agreement between Airbus and Singapore Airlines to replace these aircraft with new builds. As such, these five older aircraft are being replaced by new build aircraft.


You're making a lot of assumptions my friend.
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parapente
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Tue May 23, 2017 12:13 pm

I thought these five were leased?If so they simply get returned to the lessor.He will get one price for parts (note v expensive bits like engines etc)!
But if someone is prepared to pay similar/more than that over an 'z' year period to fly them they will take that.At the end of that period there is still 'spares'.
 
bennett123
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Tue May 23, 2017 12:36 pm

IMO, the VVIP market is the best prospect.
 
Monty1988
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Sat May 27, 2017 3:01 am

RayChuang wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised these five A380's will likely be converted to VIP configuration. The governments of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait or the UAE might take them as governmental-use transports.


KAC or KGOV will never buy a 2nd hand aircraft! KAC chairman lost his job because he apporved the purchase of used aircrafts from Jet Airways! The deal was scrapped, As for The head of state he uses the 747-8i and won't replace it with an A380 specially a used one!
 
United Airline
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Sun May 28, 2017 3:35 am

Do they have options still? Wonder if they will order more in the future
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Sun May 28, 2017 3:34 pm

lightsaber wrote:
r2rho wrote:
Nothing really new for a.net... just that now it is publicly confirmed. As expected, SQ maintains its total A380 fleet size at 19, and returns the 5 early frames as they come off lease and new ones arrive.

Are these five, all early overweight birds?


Yes, those 5 are among the earliest frames. They are not overweight though, but within the weight spec of the time, which is a couple tons above A380s coming off the line today. They do not have the wing twist mod either, nor the new galley cooling system and others, and have lower reliability.
But that's not really the main issue. The main issue is that they are the "hand-built" re-wired frames, which should make cabin refurbishing costs even more prohibitive than usual.

Taking these factors into account, it is perfectly understandable that SQ will offload them when their leases expire. The problem for the lessor now is who will be willing to take these early, non-standard frames. They may in fact be worth more as parts.

The hand built wire adds millions to the overhaul costs. Mid to high single digits. Combined with everything else, I understand replacing these frames. It is sad. But I fully expect the hand wired frames to be early beer cans.

The A380 needs new engines, new wingtip treatments, and maybe a stretch. If more sold, the resale market would improve thanks to economy of scale discounts.

But nothing will save early frames unless the initial operator pays for the required rewiring. With the surplus of used 77Ws, only the best A380s will find second hand operators.


Lightsaber


Can you elaborate on how the different wiring affects overhaul costs according to you?
During overhaul, none of the wiring comes off. At best, it's inspected as part of EWIS tasks.

The pain comes when you have to do modifications or troubleshooting, but it's not like it makes the tasks anymore complicated or costly.
Maintenance engineers have to follow wiring diagrams anyway, so whether they follow the standard production diagram, or one that is custom-tailored to that aircraft, it's the same amount of work. Every wire is marked anyway, so it doesn't make sense for me to return an aircraft based on electric configurations.
In addition, the A380 being a big aircraft, I'm hearing that access for maintenance is quite good.

SQ is probably returning these aircraft because they have aircraft on order that they have to take up and whatever the lessor is asking for the extension doesn't make sense at this point versus the increasing maintenance costs expectable for aircraft nearing their big overhaul, whenever that is for the A380.
However, if the lessors offer the aircraft for next to nothing, we might see SQ holding on to some of these frames at the last minute. Doubtful, but possible.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Sun May 28, 2017 8:12 pm

I think the most likely buyer or lessee would be a airline like Air Atlanta Icelandic. They have the experience of supplying big frames, up to now 747-400, for supplemental needed capacity for people movements like hadj.
They started out with DC8-63 and moved up through all types of 747 from -100 to -400, always used frames.

Regarding the return of the 5 oldest A380 at Singapore Airlines, when the 5 new ones were ordered they were defined for replacement of the old frames. It were comments by SQ themselves about not having decided if the would return the oldest five to lessor, that prompted speculation of SQ increasing their fleet of A380.

The discussion is anyway a bit strange. SQ is known for having a young fleet, they have returned 777 of similar age to lessor without invoking the discussion about the end of that type of frame. I assume when the 777-9 arrives it will replace 777-300ER, that will than be old frames in the eyes of SQ.

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