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Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 10:16 am

Singapore Airlines has announced it is to return 4 A380s between now and 31 March 2018 in addition to 9V-SKA previously announced.

http://infopub.sgx.com/FileOpen/nr-q4fy ... eID=454408
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Dutchy
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 10:24 am

This will be an interesting thing to watch, let's see if someone dares to turn them into 851 seat monsters and start a low cost, long haul air bridge. Or Malaysian might pick them up for them Hadj flight.

Are these five, all early overweight birds?
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LoganTheBogan
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 10:31 am

Sad to see such a technological marvel being phased out so quickly. Hopefully we will see a twin engine A380 sometime in the future!
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Arion640
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 10:50 am

Although they are the heavier jets without the wing twist, I'm sure if the price was right BA would be looking at them as they have RR engines.

But lets not forgot, SQ still have more to be delivered.
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drgmobile
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 10:55 am

"Sorry sir, but clearly these A380s have been worn. You cannot return them."
 
CZ326
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 10:56 am

SQ do not need that many A380 frames as they are not able to fill them up with passengers.

That said the A380s could be used for Indonesian airlines to transport passengers to Mecca.
 
Asiaflyer
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 11:14 am

CZ326 wrote:
SQ do not need that many A380 frames as they are not able to fill them up with passengers.

That said the A380s could be used for Indonesian airlines to transport passengers to Mecca.


What do you mean by "not need that many"? SQ will recevie 5 new A380s so they will still have 19 birds going forward.
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fcogafa
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 11:15 am

There is another thread suggesting that they are being offered for VIP conversion
 
Theseus
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 11:20 am

LoganTheBogan wrote:
Sad to see such a technological marvel being phased out so quickly. Hopefully we will see a twin engine A380 sometime in the future!


They are not phased out.

SQ ordered initially 19, and then ordered 5 more and said that these would either replace the first 5 or come in addition to them.
The only recent news is that we now have the answer: the new 5 will only replace the first 5 in SQ fleet.

SQ is known to not keep its planes too long (though, I thought that was changing a bit ---others may have more statistics), and the first frames were heavier than planned. New frames will be lighter, and perform better (continuous evolutions). So lots of reasons for SQ to get 5 new frames.
 
itisi
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 11:21 am

They have new A380's on the way to replace them. It's been known for some time that their early frames will be returned... not new.
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r2rho
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 11:29 am

Nothing really new for a.net... just that now it is publicly confirmed. As expected, SQ maintains its total A380 fleet size at 19, and returns the 5 early frames as they come off lease and new ones arrive.

Are these five, all early overweight birds?


Yes, those 5 are among the earliest frames. They are not overweight though, but within the weight spec of the time, which is a couple tons above A380s coming off the line today. They do not have the wing twist mod either, nor the new galley cooling system and others, and have lower reliability.
But that's not really the main issue. The main issue is that they are the "hand-built" re-wired frames, which should make cabin refurbishing costs even more prohibitive than usual.

Taking these factors into account, it is perfectly understandable that SQ will offload them when their leases expire. The problem for the lessor now is who will be willing to take these early, non-standard frames. They may in fact be worth more as parts.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 11:53 am

It seems the other shoe has dropped. Many of us saw this as inevitable, but some in our last long thread on the topic ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1339259 ) weren't ready to see it coming.
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skipness1E
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 12:03 pm

The difference being former Singapore airframes went on to long and active lives on the second hand market. The A380s just won't, they'll join the A345s and A346s as being offered for sale until one day they're quietly dismantled. Anyone who could even afford to run an A380 commercially already has one.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 12:13 pm

r2rho wrote:
They may in fact be worth more as parts.


skipness1E wrote:
[...] one day they're quietly dismantled.

I don't know much, but what I know is that they day pictures of an A380 being dismanteld will be posted, a.net will go nuts... :stirthepot:

fcogafa wrote:
There is another thread suggesting that they are being offered for VIP conversion

Yapp: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1363313

But I guess that's just one option they are testing right now.
By the way, who are the owners of MSN 005, 006, 008 and 010?
 
AngMoh
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 12:20 pm

skipness1E wrote:
The difference being former Singapore airframes went on to long and active lives on the second hand market. The A380s just won't, they'll join the A345s and A346s as being offered for sale until one day they're quietly dismantled. Anyone who could even afford to run an A380 commercially already has one.


Convert them to Belugas and then you have a true whalejet.
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KarelXWB
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 12:20 pm

N14AZ wrote:
By the way, who are the owners of MSN 005, 006, 008 and 010?


Doric Prepares For Return Of 5 SQ A380s
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N14AZ
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 12:33 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
By the way, who are the owners of MSN 005, 006, 008 and 010?


Doric Prepares For Return Of 5 SQ A380s

Ooops, this is even a thread I started myself. :-) Seems I am getting older (but not wiser...) :old:

But seriously, thanks for the information. I thought several leasing companies were involved, but that's not correct.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 12:38 pm

How much more efficient are the 5 new compared to these 5 early frames?
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par13del
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 12:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
This will be an interesting thing to watch, let's see if someone dares to turn them into 851 seat monsters and start a low cost, long haul air bridge. Or Malaysian might pick them up for them Hadj flight.

Are these five, all early overweight birds?


....long haul air bridge where, that's the question. I don't think there is any region where such a bird could find the traffic numbers that are not already served by premium and low cost carriers who would do anything in their power to ensure that such does not happen. The other part of the problem is the benefit always used to "justify" A380 operations, air travel is increasing, runways are not being built to keep pace so larger size a/c are required, the runway part goes hand in hand with slot restrictions, a new or LCC variant will have no ends of trouble or start up cost trying to get slots.

A Hadj fleet has been mentioned in other threads, where would the other charters go, after all, the a/c has to do something at least once every two to three months to stay active. If it does not, it becomes even more expensive to keep the a/c.
 
by738
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 12:52 pm

Cant see Malaysian being interested given they have their own to dump. Would be surprised if BA took these early models.
Last edited by by738 on Thu May 18, 2017 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 12:53 pm

Those early examples have to have their own certification as they do not conform to production standard A380s. That means they also cost a lot more to insure as they are classed as rarities.

Better for SQ to replace them with lighter, production standard A380s with the latest updates. It does mean that remarketing them will be difficult. I can see these being broken for spares as there will be eager buyers. Airbus supplied parts don't come cheap; nor do Boeing.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 12:55 pm

par13del wrote:
A Hadj fleet has been mentioned in other threads, where would the other charters go, after all, the a/c has to do something at least once every two to three months to stay active. If it does not, it becomes even more expensive to keep the a/c.


A specialised ad-hoc charter operator wouldn't have any problems filling the aircraft a few times a week. Some would operate replacement flights on behalf of various A380 and 747 operators when an aircraft goes out of service. Other missions could include troop transports, holiday charters, cruise charters etc. There are more than enough ways to fill an A380 without operating it in a scheduled manner, just think of all the 747s that operate under a similar setup. I am pretty sure one Spanish cruise company charters 4 or 5 747-400s at one time when they need to rotate passengers on and off a cruise-ship away from home.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 12:56 pm

Curious: who is the lessor for these A380s? Amedeo?
 
TheDBCooper
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 12:58 pm

Channex757 wrote:
Those early examples have to have their own certification as they do not conform to production standard A380s. That means they also cost a lot more to insure as they are classed as rarities.


Is there a source for this? I've looked at the TCDS for the A380 and it doesn't mention early MSNs being different.
 
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IslandRob
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 2:22 pm

drgmobile wrote:
"Sorry sir, but clearly these A380s have been worn. You cannot return them."


SQ: "Well, can I at least get a store credit?"

-ir
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r2rho
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 3:09 pm

Those early examples have to have their own certification as they do not conform to production standard A380s. That means they also cost a lot more to insure as they are classed as rarities.


It is not correct that they have their own certification; they do conform to production standard and are under the production certificate. This is not the ARJ-21.
But they were brought into that production standard by rewiring them "by hand", so they will have their own wiring diagrams, cable routings etc, which should make a cabin refurbishing even more costly than it already is for an A380, simply in terms of added design & documentation work.
 
TheGeordielad
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 3:16 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Curious: who is the lessor for these A380s? Amedeo?

All from Doric.
 
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OA940
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 3:29 pm

They are just being replaced. What y'all should be wondering is will the new (possibly similar to EY's A380 F) Suites class be fitted throughout the fleet?
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Btblue
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 4:34 pm

AngMoh wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
The difference being former Singapore airframes went on to long and active lives on the second hand market. The A380s just won't, they'll join the A345s and A346s as being offered for sale until one day they're quietly dismantled. Anyone who could even afford to run an A380 commercially already has one.


Convert them to Belugas and then you have a true whalejet.


I wonder IF, joking aside, Airbus could convert them to Freighters and develop a second hand A380 and new Freighter market by offering something with massive freight capability. I know it was intended initially and then dropped but looking at the freighter market, there's only the 747 that's comparable (and the An124 and 225 but they are different in size and capability) so could mop up some sales there but of course, it all depends on development costs...
 
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RL777
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 4:39 pm

I'm not sure this should be a surprise to anybody, the speculation on this has been going on for awhile. I think its an excellent decision, the A380 seems to be working well at its current fleet size for SQ and they essentially are getting 5 more efficient frames than the slightly overweight early birds going out.
 
vfw614
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 5:17 pm

Btblue wrote:
I wonder IF, joking aside, Airbus could convert them to Freighters and develop a second hand A380 and new Freighter market by offering something with massive freight capability. I know it was intended initially and then dropped but looking at the freighter market, there's only the 747 that's comparable (and the An124 and 225 but they are different in size and capability) so could mop up some sales there but of course, it all depends on development costs...


I suppose they would only make sense for the integrators as they will be unable to use all floor space for heavy freight. As parcel carriers, they are probably useful if there are city pairs with sufficient demand.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 5:26 pm

vfw614 wrote:
I suppose they would only make sense for the integrators as they will be unable to use all floor space for heavy freight. As parcel carriers, they are probably useful if there are city pairs with sufficient demand.


Well, both FedEx and UPS did have A380F on order at one point.
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Bricktop
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 5:28 pm

I really don't see these being taken up. They are very early frames, and will cost a crapload of money to make into anything useful. I doubt any existing A380 operator would touch them, and that's a BIG ask for a new operator. I don't see them as giving a real indication of the used A380 market, which I suspect will be soft to non-existent anyway. These frames will go for parts or beer cans.
 
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IslandRob
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 5:45 pm

RL777 wrote:
I'm not sure this should be a surprise to anybody, the speculation on this has been going on for awhile. I think its an excellent decision, the A380 seems to be working well at its current fleet size for SQ and they essentially are getting 5 more efficient frames than the slightly overweight early birds going out.


Does anyone know when the next batch of SQ 380s come off lease? Has SQ placed additional orders to replace them? Is it likely the fleet of 19 will be reduced? -ir
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CRJ900
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 7:46 pm

After 9-10 years of service these aircraft must have thousands of hours and cycles on them, so they are not being returned unused by any means. Airbus probably learned a lot from these frames and that's why factory-fresh A380s are so much better.
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RL777
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 8:32 pm

CRJ900 wrote:
After 9-10 years of service these aircraft must have thousands of hours and cycles on them, so they are not being returned unused by any means. Airbus probably learned a lot from these frames and that's why factory-fresh A380s are so much better.


Generally in any aircraft program there will be continuous improvement especially over a 10 year period.
 
col
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 10:01 pm

They could swap them for 5 of their own Cripple 7W, much nicer and relaxing to fly on.
 
scouseflyer
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 10:59 pm

N14AZ wrote:
r2rho wrote:
They may in fact be worth more as parts.


skipness1E wrote:
[...] one day they're quietly dismantled.

I don't know much, but what I know is that they day pictures of an A380 being dismanteld will be posted, a.net will go nuts... :stirthepot:




Don't please anyone look at this image from the renowned A380spotter!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/a380spotter/2367558768
 
SFOATLFlyer
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Thu May 18, 2017 11:37 pm

Dutchy wrote:
This will be an interesting thing to watch, let's see if someone dares to turn them into 851 seat monsters and start a low cost, long haul air bridge. Or Malaysian might pick them up for them Hadj flight.

Are these five, all early overweight birds?


Hey, maybe UU will reconsider and take a couple.
 
325i
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Fri May 19, 2017 12:45 am

Question? Given QF has a backlog of 8 frames and the reference that they are not interested in anymore, could they be in the frame for doing an SQ. This presumption is based on whether they own or lease the currant fleet.Speculation is on.
 
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rotating14
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Fri May 19, 2017 12:59 am

Off topic observation. SQ is scheduled to receive delivery of the 777-9 for year 2021-2022. (I'm aware of the letter of intent) With over 300+ orders on the books, that declaration seems pretty illegitimate.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Fri May 19, 2017 1:07 am

par13del wrote:
A Hadj fleet has been mentioned in other threads, where would the other charters go, after all, the a/c has to do something at least once every two to three months to stay active. If it does not, it becomes even more expensive to keep the a/c.


The Haj pilgrimage is only a few months in a year, but the Umrah movement to Makkah is all year round so there's no issue with aircraft utilization.
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Hagic
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Fri May 19, 2017 1:10 am

Just wondering, what's the approximate annual lease for each of these A380s?
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Bald1983
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Fri May 19, 2017 1:11 am

[url][/url]
Arion640 wrote:
Although they are the heavier jets without the wing twist, I'm sure if the price was right BA would be looking at them as they have RR engines.

But lets not forgot, SQ still have more to be delivered.


I believe that British Airways would base their decision on whether the plane fits in its business. I suspect that they would not and they will opt for twins.
 
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vhtje
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Fri May 19, 2017 2:03 am

325i wrote:
Question? Given QF has a backlog of 8 frames and the reference that they are not interested in anymore, could they be in the frame for doing an SQ. This presumption is based on whether they own or lease the currant fleet.Speculation is on.


No, because Qantas own their A380 aircraft. Strictly speaking, they are leased, but they are owned by a Qantas subsidiary and then leased to Qantas Airways. For examole VH-OQA is owned by QF BOC 2008-1 Pty Ltd, which is a subsidiary of Qantas. It's an accounting setup, presumably done for tax purposes.

http://www.aussieairliners.org/a380/vh-oqa/vhoqa.html
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flee
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Fri May 19, 2017 2:04 am

IslandRob wrote:
RL777 wrote:
I'm not sure this should be a surprise to anybody, the speculation on this has been going on for awhile. I think its an excellent decision, the A380 seems to be working well at its current fleet size for SQ and they essentially are getting 5 more efficient frames than the slightly overweight early birds going out.
Does anyone know when the next batch of SQ 380s come off lease? Has SQ placed additional orders to replace them? Is it likely the fleet of 19 will be reduced? -ir

The sixth frame to be delivered to SQ was MSN012 on 17 September 2008. However, no leasing information is available on this frame.

I believe that SQ has some flexibility over what it does with its A380s right until its first B777-9s are delivered. I would think that going forward, A380s will be gradually retired and be replaced by B777-9s and A350-1000s. If oil prices remain below USD 80 for the foreseeable future, it should be a slow and orderly change.

After reporting bad financial results yesterday, the management will be under pressure to deliver better financial performance. The A380s will now be the No 1 target for the axe in a cost cutting exercise.
 
325i
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Fri May 19, 2017 3:00 am

Thank you VHJE, that certainly clears up any speculation on my part. Will be on QF 1 in August to enjoy the QF hospitality.
 
Planesmart
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Fri May 19, 2017 4:08 am

flee wrote:
The sixth frame to be delivered to SQ was MSN012 on 17 September 2008. However, no leasing information is available on this frame.

I believe that SQ has some flexibility over what it does with its A380s right until its first B777-9s are delivered. I would think that going forward, A380s will be gradually retired and be replaced by B777-9s and A350-1000s. If oil prices remain below USD 80 for the foreseeable future, it should be a slow and orderly change.

After reporting bad financial results yesterday, the management will be under pressure to deliver better financial performance. The A380s will now be the No 1 target for the axe in a cost cutting exercise.

This is far from played out.
Does Doric, via SQ have a buyback with Airbus?
Will SQ re-purchase from Airbus for parts or even to operate?
Has the final balloon payment been waived or discounted in return for the new aircraft lease?
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Fri May 19, 2017 4:36 am

Regarding SQ A380 fleet wownership, 9 frames are under lease on 10-13-year terms.

To me its highly probable that the remaining leased frames will roll off leases and leave the fleet particularly as the 777X arrive.

For the owned frames, I would expect SQ to look to do perform sale/leaseback deals sooner rather than later to maximize remaining values, while also taking advantage of reduced rental and interest rates.
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ZK-NBT
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Re: Singapore Airlines to return first five A380s

Fri May 19, 2017 7:33 am

LAXintl wrote:
Regarding SQ A380 fleet wownership, 9 frames are under lease on 10-13-year terms.

To me its highly probable that the remaining leased frames will roll off leases and leave the fleet particularly as the 777X arrive.

For the owned frames, I would expect SQ to look to do perform sale/leaseback deals sooner rather than later to maximize remaining values, while also taking advantage of reduced rental and interest rates.



So the remaining 10 are owned?! I think SQ could always use a smallish fleet of A380's 12-15 frames for some LHR services peak SYD/MEL and maybe FRA/CDG plus a few regional services. Maybe seasonal AKL aswell. They did decide ZRH/CDG were better served by a single daily A380 rather than 2 777's though so interesting to see what they do in future there.

I think 779's could cover the remaining A380 routes and the busiest 77W routes, they have 20 779's on order?!

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