Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
SteveXC500 wrote:Periodically, MSP sees a 737 and we have had 319/320 service to SFO before (seasonally in summer, I believe). Maybe this is just the return of mainline service for the summer months?
commavia wrote:Needless to say, sending quite the message to Alaska. This is definitely precisely what was to be expected from the Alaska-Virgin merger - it has created a far more compelling competitive force in the Bay Area, and United is now responding.
ryder1650 wrote:Is XIY happening again this summer?
Varsity1 wrote:Kirby is doing his thing.
Good to see.
MIflyer12 wrote:Implementing the AA cornerstone concept, where's there's nothing but flying to or from a hub?
MIflyer12 wrote:If they're not growing ASMs, by definition adds to SFO are cuts from somewhere else.
MIflyer12 wrote:Varsity1 wrote:Kirby is doing his thing.
Good to see.
Implementing the AA cornerstone concept, where's there's nothing but flying to or from a hub?
If they're not growing ASMs, by definition adds to SFO are cuts from somewhere else.
ryder1650 wrote:Is XIY happening again this summer?
MIflyer12 wrote:If they're not growing ASMs, by definition adds to SFO are cuts from somewhere else.
LHUSA wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:Varsity1 wrote:Kirby is doing his thing.
Good to see.
Implementing the AA cornerstone concept, where's there's nothing but flying to or from a hub?
If they're not growing ASMs, by definition adds to SFO are cuts from somewhere else.
I believe Kirby has indicated domestic capacity growth in 2017 near 6%
Yflyer wrote:Holy crap, did I read that right? They're upgauging SMF-SFO to a 737?! That's like a 20 minute flight. That's got to be one of the shortest mainline flights in the US. At one time that route was all E120 back when Skywest still had the type.
LHUSA wrote:ryder1650 wrote:Is XIY happening again this summer?
Yes, it is. I'm not sure when it started up again, but it's flying tomorrow May 9th.
travelin man wrote:Upgauging SFO-PSP in June? Bold move...
MDW22L31C wrote:PSP gets 737's and ONT stays with RJ's?
BobbyPSP wrote:I agree this deserves its own thread. While we really appreciate the hard work into posting sked changes, this gives a clear, concise set of facts
jetmatt777 wrote:commavia wrote:Needless to say, sending quite the message to Alaska. This is definitely precisely what was to be expected from the Alaska-Virgin merger - it has created a far more compelling competitive force in the Bay Area, and United is now responding.
I wonder if Alaska will respond?
Yflyer wrote:Holy crap, did I read that right? They're upgauging SMF-SFO to a 737?! That's like a 20 minute flight. That's got to be one of the shortest mainline flights in the US. At one time that route was all E120 back when Skywest still had the type.
phllax wrote:Interesting, mainline returned to BUR with the February schedule change: 1 daily 319 RON from DEN and 2 SFO flights during the week that are either Airbus or 737.
jumbojet wrote:jetmatt777 wrote:commavia wrote:Needless to say, sending quite the message to Alaska. This is definitely precisely what was to be expected from the Alaska-Virgin merger - it has created a far more compelling competitive force in the Bay Area, and United is now responding.
I wonder if Alaska will respond?
I think if people has their choice between AS and UA, UA will lose out. AS is just a much better run airline in that market. UA cant compete with AS's customer service which as of late, is a pretty big factor when choosing whom to fly. So, personally speaking, I don't think AS needs to respond at all, UA will fumble the ball all on their own, AS just needs to sit back, relax, and enjoy the show that is UA.
Yflyer wrote:Holy crap, did I read that right? They're upgauging SMF-SFO to a 737?! That's like a 20 minute flight. That's got to be one of the shortest mainline flights in the US. At one time that route was all E120 back when Skywest still had the type.
United1 wrote:While I am sure some of this expansion at SFO was in reaction to AS/VX I don't think UA is all that worried about them at SFO simply because there is no way AS/VX can ever offer the same depth and breadth of a schedule or network as UA can which are far more important to the average business traveler than a perception of customer service.
Taking a look at on time rankings out of SFO and UA is again ahead also a very important thing that travelers look at.
On time rankings at SFO 12 month trailing:
UA 75.99%
AS 75.46%
AS/VX 70.99%
VX 69.79%
CO777-200ER wrote:Yflyer wrote:Holy crap, did I read that right? They're upgauging SMF-SFO to a 737?! That's like a 20 minute flight. That's got to be one of the shortest mainline flights in the US. At one time that route was all E120 back when Skywest still had the type.
The only mainline flight that comes close is UA runs a few mainline flights from ORD-MKE. Only about 70 miles between to the 2.
United1 wrote:travelin man wrote:Upgauging SFO-PSP in June? Bold move...
Not that big of a jump...UA is going from 246 seats to 305 seats in the market so an increase in capacity but is going from 4 to 3 flights as well.
As we get closer to the PSP high season UA is scheduled to go up to 5 dailies....408 seats.
Yflyer wrote:Holy crap, did I read that right? They're upgauging SMF-SFO to a 737?! That's like a 20 minute flight. That's got to be one of the shortest mainline flights in the US. At one time that route was all E120 back when Skywest still had the type.
ASFlyer wrote:United1 wrote:While I am sure some of this expansion at SFO was in reaction to AS/VX I don't think UA is all that worried about them at SFO simply because there is no way AS/VX can ever offer the same depth and breadth of a schedule or network as UA can which are far more important to the average business traveler than a perception of customer service.
Taking a look at on time rankings out of SFO and UA is again ahead also a very important thing that travelers look at.
On time rankings at SFO 12 month trailing:
UA 75.99%
AS 75.46%
AS/VX 70.99%
VX 69.79%
Good point about the on time percentages. AS has some work to do but they are aware of that and are focusing on getting the SFO operation to the same standard as the rest of the operation. Ben Minnicucci whipped AS' operation into shape years ago when things were out of control as far as on time goes so I have faith he can do the same in SFO. He gets a laser like focus on even the most minute details of the operation and holds people accountable for doing the right thing.
As far as UA's depth and breadth of service, the same argument has been made about DL vs. AS in SEA. AS has managed to hold their own and maintain their dominant position in SEA without giving any leeway to DL. Alaska's airline partners address a little of this. Between AA and AS at SFO, together with QF, AF, KL, KE, EK, CX, FI, FJ, JL, LA, BA and HU at SJC, you can get pretty much anywhere in the world while earning status miles on AS. Not the same as flying on one airline, but a pretty nice cache of codeshare partners, nevertheless. Let's face it, recent news aside, UA isn't known for their service either on the airplane or off. They're improving, and will continue to do so, but they've still got work to do. I think AS and UA can coexist nicely at SFO.
travelin man wrote:United1 wrote:travelin man wrote:Upgauging SFO-PSP in June? Bold move...
Not that big of a jump...UA is going from 246 seats to 305 seats in the market so an increase in capacity but is going from 4 to 3 flights as well.
As we get closer to the PSP high season UA is scheduled to go up to 5 dailies....408 seats.
It just seems like an odd time to increase capacity to Palm Springs -- right in the beginning of "low season".
jumbojet wrote:jetmatt777 wrote:commavia wrote:Needless to say, sending quite the message to Alaska. This is definitely precisely what was to be expected from the Alaska-Virgin merger - it has created a far more compelling competitive force in the Bay Area, and United is now responding.
I wonder if Alaska will respond?
I think if people has their choice between AS and UA, UA will lose out. AS is just a much better run airline in that market. UA cant compete with AS's customer service which as of late, is a pretty big factor when choosing whom to fly. So, personally speaking, I don't think AS needs to respond at all, UA will fumble the ball all on their own, AS just needs to sit back, relax, and enjoy the show that is UA.
United1 wrote:ASFlyer wrote:United1 wrote:While I am sure some of this expansion at SFO was in reaction to AS/VX I don't think UA is all that worried about them at SFO simply because there is no way AS/VX can ever offer the same depth and breadth of a schedule or network as UA can which are far more important to the average business traveler than a perception of customer service.
Taking a look at on time rankings out of SFO and UA is again ahead also a very important thing that travelers look at.
On time rankings at SFO 12 month trailing:
UA 75.99%
AS 75.46%
AS/VX 70.99%
VX 69.79%
Good point about the on time percentages. AS has some work to do but they are aware of that and are focusing on getting the SFO operation to the same standard as the rest of the operation. Ben Minnicucci whipped AS' operation into shape years ago when things were out of control as far as on time goes so I have faith he can do the same in SFO. He gets a laser like focus on even the most minute details of the operation and holds people accountable for doing the right thing.
As far as UA's depth and breadth of service, the same argument has been made about DL vs. AS in SEA. AS has managed to hold their own and maintain their dominant position in SEA without giving any leeway to DL. Alaska's airline partners address a little of this. Between AA and AS at SFO, together with QF, AF, KL, KE, EK, CX, FI, FJ, JL, LA, BA and HU at SJC, you can get pretty much anywhere in the world while earning status miles on AS. Not the same as flying on one airline, but a pretty nice cache of codeshare partners, nevertheless. Let's face it, recent news aside, UA isn't known for their service either on the airplane or off. They're improving, and will continue to do so, but they've still got work to do. I think AS and UA can coexist nicely at SFO.
Well I am glad they are looking at the SFO operations as VX needs some help. My hope is that the integration of VX into AS doesn't damage ASes operations in the short term but history is not on their side...we will see.
I understand the parallel you are trying to make but I think you might be looking at apples to oranges if you try and compare what happened up at SEA vs SFO. DL has made itself successful at SEA by being willing to absorb losses in order to build a hub and I'm not convinced SEA will ever be on its own a profitable part of DLs network. As the hometown carrier AS also had (and has) a massive advantage over DL both in loyalty, breadth of network and quite frankly is entrenched in markets where DL has no hope of ever matching much less surpassing them. SFO is a bit different for AS as in essence it's in the opposite situation. While AS/VX do have an established market share here it's still nowhere near the size of what UA has and in order to grow they are going to have to do what DL did up in SEA which is be willing to absorb losses. At the same time they are going to have to finish their merger with VX, continue to defend SEA and potentially grow LAX as well. AS is a great well run airline, and I don't question that for a moment, but they have a lot on their plate right now so I'm not sure any significant growth is practical right now.
My bet is that you will see the occasional one-off add here and there at SFO from AS/VX beyond what has already been announced but nothing that truly causes a response from UA. The growth you are seeing from UA is more aligned with UA righting its network and tapping into the boom town that is SF than it is really a reaction to AS. I think you are right however that UA and AS will both coexist quite well in the Bay Area.
United1 wrote:jumbojet wrote:jetmatt777 wrote:I wonder if Alaska will respond?
I think if people has their choice between AS and UA, UA will lose out. AS is just a much better run airline in that market. UA cant compete with AS's customer service which as of late, is a pretty big factor when choosing whom to fly. So, personally speaking, I don't think AS needs to respond at all, UA will fumble the ball all on their own, AS just needs to sit back, relax, and enjoy the show that is UA.
Not really....UA actually does a rather good job in SFO and while AS is a very good airline VX has a bit of work to do (VXs complaint rate to the feds is actually 3.63 per 100k vs UAs 1.72.) Looking back at every recent US airline merger operations and customer service have suffered before rebounding a bit so AS/VX will be a bit occupied for a while. While I am sure some of this expansion at SFO was in reaction to AS/VX I don't think UA is all that worried about them at SFO simply because there is no way AS/VX can ever offer the same depth and breadth of a schedule or network as UA can which are far more important to the average business traveler than a perception of customer service.
Taking a look at on time rankings out of SFO and UA is again ahead also a very important thing that travelers look at.
On time rankings at SFO 12 month trailing:
UA 75.99%
AS 75.46%
AS/VX 70.99%
VX 69.79%
Varsity1 wrote:Kirby is doing his thing
United1 wrote:I understand the parallel you are trying to make but I think you might be looking at apples to oranges if you try and compare what happened up at SEA vs SFO. DL has made itself successful at SEA by being willing to absorb losses in order to build a hub and I'm not convinced SEA will ever be on its own a profitable part of DLs network. As the hometown carrier AS also had (and has) a massive advantage over DL both in loyalty, breadth of network and quite frankly is entrenched in markets where DL has no hope of ever matching much less surpassing them. SFO is a bit different for AS as in essence it's in the opposite situation. While AS/VX do have an established market share here it's still nowhere near the size of what UA has and in order to grow they are going to have to do what DL did up in SEA which is be willing to absorb losses.
United1 wrote:AS is a great well run airline, and I don't question that for a moment, but they have a lot on their plate right now so I'm not sure any significant growth is practical right now.
commavia wrote:But that said, as already mentioned, Alaska has faced precisely this type of competitive threat before, and found a way to compete very effectively.
commavia wrote:United1 wrote:hts, tooUnited1 wrote:AS is a great well run airline, and I don't question that for a moment, but they have a lot on their plate right now so I'm not sure any significant growth is practical right now.
Better tell Alaska's management! I agree that Alaska has quite a big on its "plate" right now with the integration, regional staffing issues, etc., but even in spite of all that, it still looks like the company is growing quite significantly this year!
Rdh3e wrote:commavia wrote:
AS will need to keep an eye on CASM because as with SEA, their primary weapon in pushing back DL has often been their ability to offer customers low fares made possible by their low costs. AS's costs are 15-20% lower than UA's, that will be crucial for their success in SFO as they try to convince the UA FF's to switch their loyalties.
CMHMarc787 wrote:phllax wrote:Interesting, mainline returned to BUR with the February schedule change: 1 daily 319 RON from DEN and 2 SFO flights during the week that are either Airbus or 737.
Going mainline to BUR makes sense to even the playing field with WN, now that they fly to SFO. UA had been steadily moving towards mainlining when they went from all CRJ-200's to splitting those with E175's...and now moving to integrate the 737.
Applaud the move, UA.
adamblang wrote:ryder1650 wrote:Is XIY happening again this summer?
Punching SFO and XIY into United.com would suggest yes.
F27500 wrote:adamblang wrote:ryder1650 wrote:Is XIY happening again this summer?
Punching SFO and XIY into United.com would suggest yes.
Ok .. I have to ask this ... how does one pronounce "XIAN" ? I always wondered.