Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
unrave wrote:CaliguyNYC wrote:None of the ME3 have shown any desire in growing Indian aviation.
Besides operating multiple flights out of airports that the Indian Govt allows them to, how else do you think they can grow Indian aviation? If the govt relaxes its idiotic protectionism they will be ready to fly many more cities and provide connectivity to the cities long ignored by the national carrier. Just look at what liberal flying rights has done to TRZ.
CaliguyNYC wrote:Well if your goal is just to have multiple flights from your city to DOH, then you are right. If the goal is for India to have strong aviation hubs that are connected to major cities in the world, then the ME3 have not helped. Look at what aviation has done for DXB and DOH. They are considered global cities when as recent as the late 80's they were backwaters. Plus if a true hub pops up in DEL or BOM (and then later BLR, HYD, MAA etc), those cities will have better connections to a multitude of Indian cities (so again India wins). Plus aviation is a huge jobs creator. In my mind the goal of Indian aviation should be (1) connect India together, (2) connect India to the world (3) create jobs for Indians and (4) make tourism and business flow INTO India. EK, QR have done a great job of doing this for their own countries. But hey, your town has a double daily to DOH so you're set.
unrave wrote:CaliguyNYC wrote:Well if your goal is just to have multiple flights from your city to DOH, then you are right. If the goal is for India to have strong aviation hubs that are connected to major cities in the world, then the ME3 have not helped. Look at what aviation has done for DXB and DOH. They are considered global cities when as recent as the late 80's they were backwaters. Plus if a true hub pops up in DEL or BOM (and then later BLR, HYD, MAA etc), those cities will have better connections to a multitude of Indian cities (so again India wins). Plus aviation is a huge jobs creator. In my mind the goal of Indian aviation should be (1) connect India together, (2) connect India to the world (3) create jobs for Indians and (4) make tourism and business flow INTO India. EK, QR have done a great job of doing this for their own countries. But hey, your town has a double daily to DOH so you're set.
One one hand Indian carriers won't think beyond DEL/BOM for international flights and on the other hand the Indian government will not/ should not allow foreign carriers to operate to smaller cities. What do you propose residents of smaller Indian cities should do? Waste 10 hours connecting in the clusterf**k that is DEL/BOM for a 3 hour flight? Spend a day travelling by road/rail to the nearest metro? Or are you one of those elitists who believe connectivity begins and ends with the five or six metro cities? Developing a true international hub in India is a rosy dream, but (1) we have not done it in 70 years and (2) the country is too huge for a single hub - why should a resident of Kerala trek all the way to DEL to fly to to SYD? so I am not holding out any hope.
ME3 and South East Asian carriers have contributed much more to the cause of air connectivity in India than the national embarrassment ever has. My home airport is one of those small towns that you seem to be so disdainful about; we have one true international connection- 5 weekly to SIN via MI and that is our portal to the world. My own friends and relatives use that for travelling to work across SEA, North Asia, Oceania and the US West Coast. Meanwhile the so called national carrier does not connect it - the 19th busiest airport in the country - to its hub. So pardon me if I don't find substance in your logic that only Indian carriers can provide connectivity to Indians.
The objective of Indian aviation is to develop the infrastructure to facilitate Indians residing all over India to travel both within the country and abroad. The metal on which they fly does not matter one bit. And a country that has actually understood this is Australia.
anshabhi wrote:unrave wrote:CaliguyNYC wrote:Dubai's economy is surviving on EK only. Imagine how important strong intl network is for India's tourism sector.
unrave wrote:CaliguyNYC wrote:Well if your goal is just to have multiple flights from your city to DOH, then you are right. If the goal is for India to have strong aviation hubs that are connected to major cities in the world, then the ME3 have not helped. Look at what aviation has done for DXB and DOH. They are considered global cities when as recent as the late 80's they were backwaters. Plus if a true hub pops up in DEL or BOM (and then later BLR, HYD, MAA etc), those cities will have better connections to a multitude of Indian cities (so again India wins). Plus aviation is a huge jobs creator. In my mind the goal of Indian aviation should be (1) connect India together, (2) connect India to the world (3) create jobs for Indians and (4) make tourism and business flow INTO India. EK, QR have done a great job of doing this for their own countries. But hey, your town has a double daily to DOH so you're set.
One one hand Indian carriers won't think beyond DEL/BOM for international flights and on the other hand the Indian government will not/ should not allow foreign carriers to operate to smaller cities. What do you propose residents of smaller Indian cities should do? Waste 10 hours connecting in the clusterf**k that is DEL/BOM for a 3 hour flight? Spend a day travelling by road/rail to the nearest metro? Or are you one of those elitists who believe connectivity begins and ends with the five or six metro cities? Developing a true international hub in India is a rosy dream, but (1) we have not done it in 70 years and (2) the country is too huge for a single hub - why should a resident of Kerala trek all the way to DEL to fly to to SYD? so I am not holding out any hope.
ME3 and South East Asian carriers have contributed much more to the cause of air connectivity in India than the national embarrassment ever has. My home airport is one of those small towns that you seem to be so disdainful about; we have one true international connection- 5 weekly to SIN via MI and that is our portal to the world. My own friends and relatives use that for travelling to work across SEA, North Asia, Oceania and the US West Coast. Meanwhile the so called national carrier does not connect it - the 19th busiest airport in the country - to its hub. So pardon me if I don't find substance in your logic that only Indian carriers can provide connectivity to Indians.
The objective of Indian aviation is to develop the infrastructure to facilitate Indians residing all over India to travel both within the country and abroad. The metal on which they fly does not matter one bit. And a country that has actually understood this is Australia.
unrave wrote:One one hand Indian carriers won't think beyond DEL/BOM for international flights and on the other hand the Indian government will not/ should not allow foreign carriers to operate to smaller cities. What do you propose residents of smaller Indian cities should do? Waste 10 hours connecting in the clusterf**k that is DEL/BOM for a 3 hour flight? Spend a day travelling by road/rail to the nearest metro? Or are you one of those elitists who believe connectivity begins and ends with the five or six metro cities? Developing a true international hub in India is a rosy dream, but (1) we have not done it in 70 years and (2) the country is too huge for a single hub - why should a resident of Kerala trek all the way to DEL to fly to to SYD? so I am not holding out any hope.
ME3 and South East Asian carriers have contributed much more to the cause of air connectivity in India than the national embarrassment ever has. My home airport is one of those small towns that you seem to be so disdainful about; we have one true international connection- 5 weekly to SIN via MI and that is our portal to the world. My own friends and relatives use that for travelling to work across SEA, North Asia, Oceania and the US West Coast. Meanwhile the so called national carrier does not connect it - the 19th busiest airport in the country - to its hub. So pardon me if I don't find substance in your logic that only Indian carriers can provide connectivity to Indians.
The objective of Indian aviation is to develop the infrastructure to facilitate Indians residing all over India to travel both within the country and abroad. The metal on which they fly does not matter one bit. And a country that has actually understood this is Australia.
"We are looking at connecting two more cities -- Los Angeles and either Houston or Dallas," Air India Chairman and MD Ashwani Lohani said at an event to celebrate the launch of the direct non-stop flight yesterday between the capitals of the two largest democracies of the world.
The direct flight to Los Angeles is expected to be launched by October, while the date for the flight to Houston or Dallas in Texas has not been determined yet, Lohani said.
..
The three times a week flight frequency from the US capital could soon be expanded to daily based on the passenger response, he said.
...
blrsea wrote:AI looking at more US non-stops.
Air India to add LA, Houston in its list of US destinations"We are looking at connecting two more cities -- Los Angeles and either Houston or Dallas," Air India Chairman and MD Ashwani Lohani said at an event to celebrate the launch of the direct non-stop flight yesterday between the capitals of the two largest democracies of the world.
The direct flight to Los Angeles is expected to be launched by October, while the date for the flight to Houston or Dallas in Texas has not been determined yet, Lohani said.
..
The three times a week flight frequency from the US capital could soon be expanded to daily based on the passenger response, he said.
...
anshabhi wrote:Is any info available on profitability of these US flights, or are we the tax payers sponsoring them (like always)?
adi00654 wrote:
Yea LAX is already on the cards to launch in October .Good move a weekly thrice flight and increase it on the basis of pax response. AI is making good moves and the 77L are being fully utilised up to core.
Now the 3 remaining 77L will work non stop ultra long haul daily after LAX launch
I think so SFO might be upgraded to 77W but I think it usually needs some payload off..
Or IAD can be 77W In order to free up the plane and do Houston .
voxkel wrote:adi00654 wrote:
Yea LAX is already on the cards to launch in October .Good move a weekly thrice flight and increase it on the basis of pax response. AI is making good moves and the 77L are being fully utilised up to core.
Now the 3 remaining 77L will work non stop ultra long haul daily after LAX launch
I think so SFO might be upgraded to 77W but I think it usually needs some payload off..
Or IAD can be 77W In order to free up the plane and do Houston .
I think if AI wants to launch LAX then IAD will have to go 77W. DEL-IAD/ORD both push 77W to its limits, but the restrictions a 77W would have to take on DEL-IAD shouldn't be that bad that AI lose opportunity opening up new routes. In other words, the 77L at IAD is probably not going to last very long.
If AI wants to launch both LAX and a Texas route, they will have to wait until they get their B789s. Let's say LAX starts in October. This would mean 3 77Ls operating DEL-SFO/LAX, with IAD upgagued to 77W. The 77Ls would be working full time for the California routes, and AI won't have an aircraft that can make DEL-Texas nonstop. Above 12000-12100km, the economics of a 77W become very difficult, especially for westbound routes. Flying a 77W DEL-SFO is theoretically possible, but this probably won't have any cargo or meaningful passenger load.
AI126 wrote:Where is the source for AI ordering/leasing 789s? Last I recall on this topic, they didn't get approval from the board of directors to change the existing 788 order to get 789s. Is AI going on a shopping spree that none of us have heard of? Also, even if they're leasing them, are there that many 789s available for lease? I thought almost all the Dreamliners in the world are taken up already.
BawliBooch wrote:AI126 wrote:Where is the source for AI ordering/leasing 789s? Last I recall on this topic, they didn't get approval from the board of directors to change the existing 788 order to get 789s. Is AI going on a shopping spree that none of us have heard of? Also, even if they're leasing them, are there that many 789s available for lease? I thought almost all the Dreamliners in the world are taken up already.
The 789 would have been a better fit for AI but it wasnt an option when they ordered it. And Boeing wanted a hefty markup when AI tried to switch some of the later deliveries to the -9 model. AI basically wanted the upgrade to be free as compensation for the delays and the grounding snafus but Boeing wouldn't bite.
AI does need around 15 widebody aircraft but will need the Govt to clear the substantial dues it owes AI and b. to underwrite the capital loans for the new acquisitions. The model they are forced by the Govt to adopt right now, taking expensive working loans from PSU banks for aircraft purchases, puts them at a competitive disadvantage. But that is not going to happen. Established lobbies wont allow AI to be set free.
Perhaps Airbus has a chance - AI does have a better working relationship with them overall. 10 x A339 in regional config along with the very urgent need for 20xA320/321 makes for a nice order. The A339 can be used to replace the regional (Gulf & ASEAN) flying - would free up atleast 6 788's for Long Haul, and allow for expansion into Africa plus provide a better product-route mix. The 788 with its lie-flat seat is a waste on many of the regional routes it now flies on. The A320's are very much needed for AI to sustain itself in the domestic/regional market. Right now they are going for expensive leases from Chinese companies for the NEO's to replace the original 14 A320's of 1989 vintage. But they will need more as they seek to replace the A319 fleet in the next 3 years. Someone at Airbus needs to call AI with a deal.
yycdel wrote:Why introduce another fleet type (A330)? Why not just get more B787s
BawliBooch wrote:yycdel wrote:Why introduce another fleet type (A330)? Why not just get more B787s
If they are available, and for cheap - sure! 787's will be the way to go.
But I think they will have better luck finding A330's on the market at the price they are looking for. Crew Commonality with their large A320 fleet is also a plus. And they have operated the A330's before.
AI126 wrote:Even if they get the A330s, though, it wouldn't really open up any longhaul options for them. Can the A338neo even operate DEL-JFK profitably?
AI really needs the B77L, A35LR, or B789 to go through with all their longhaul dreams. The A338 isn't going to cut it.
BawliBooch wrote:AI126 wrote:Even if they get the A330s, though, it wouldn't really open up any longhaul options for them. Can the A338neo even operate DEL-JFK profitably?
AI really needs the B77L, A35LR, or B789 to go through with all their longhaul dreams. The A338 isn't going to cut it.
Regional configured A330-300's could replace the 787-8's on Gulf/ASEAN routes (<6 hours) thus freeing up between 6-10 787's which could in turn be used for more Long Hauls to USA & Australia.
Regional A330-300's (24 angle-flat Business + 270 Economy) will be more suited for these shorter routes than a 787 with 18 lie-flat seats.
The A330-300's will be available sooner & much cheaper than any other alternative.
VTORD wrote:Not sure if this was mentioned earlier: AI ending DME this month.
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... july-2017/
vadodara wrote:VTORD wrote:Not sure if this was mentioned earlier: AI ending DME this month.
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... july-2017/
That was a surprise; would have made sense to extend the service to IAH.
devmapper wrote:vadodara wrote:VTORD wrote:Not sure if this was mentioned earlier: AI ending DME this month.
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... july-2017/
That was a surprise; would have made sense to extend the service to IAH.
Wasn't the equipment on that route already a narrowbody?
vadodara wrote:VTORD wrote:Not sure if this was mentioned earlier: AI ending DME this month.
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... july-2017/
That was a surprise; would have made sense to extend the service to IAH.
VTORD wrote:vadodara wrote:VTORD wrote:Not sure if this was mentioned earlier: AI ending DME this month.
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... july-2017/
That was a surprise; would have made sense to extend the service to IAH.
Did not think about that but if they are not getting enough O&D to support a 2 x weekly, I have my doubts of their ability to fill a DME - IAH. SQ had a 5 x weekly SIN-DME-IAH which got moved to MAN so probably the market is just not there.
anshabhi wrote:AI received its 24th B788 last night.
killswitch13 wrote:Plus one aircraft gets free on 15th of this month with services to DME ending.
anshabhi wrote:AI Express is doing something not-so-AI!
anshabhi wrote:This is the first time AIE is operating direct flight services to Doha from Kochi.
anshabhi wrote:Can you believe it..? AI Express is jumping in before everyone else- 6E, SG or even QR.
BawliBooch wrote:anshabhi wrote:This is the first time AIE is operating direct flight services to Doha from Kochi.
No it isnt! AIX is/was operating DOH to Kerala (COK, TRV & CCJ) in addition to BOM & IXE.
6E & 9W already operate COK-DOH. 6E and AIX already operate on CCJ-DOH.
Unless the bilaterals have been revised upwards, these 4 additional flights may be coming at the expense of a player on the Indian side - 6E or 9W pulling out.
atal17 wrote:I believe he means nonstop when he says direct.
So yeah - he's technically right.
atal17 wrote:6E does not operate Kochi-Doha, and it will only commence Kozhikode-Doha on the 20th.
9W flies nonstops to all 3 Kerala cities (daily to Kochi/Kozhikode and thrice a week to Thiruvananthapuram).
atal17 wrote:There are plenty of bilaterals to go around without any need for withdrawals. Indian carriers are far behind on their share of bilateral deployment.
If we count the seats deployed in the W17 schedule
IX - 7 weekly to Kozhikode, 4 weekly to Kochi, and 3 weekly to Mumbai and Mangalore each = 3,162 seats per week
9W - 14 weekly to Mumbai and Delhi each, 7 weekly to Kozhikode and Kochi each and 3 weekly to Thiruvananthapuram = 7,580 seats per week
6E - 7 weekly to Mumbai, Delhi, Kozhikode and Chennai each = 5,040 seats per week
A total of 15,782 seats per week being utilised against an allotment of 24,800. It's fair to say that 6E/9W/IX are free to add as many as flights they want.
CaliguyNYC wrote:from atal17's post - "A total of 15,782 seats per week being utilised against an allotment of 24,800. It's fair to say that 6E/9W/IX are free to add as many as flights they want"
Seems like the India / Qatar bilateral is pretty fair. I wonder what percentage of QR's 24.8k seats is used for O&D or do Indian carriers take the O&D crowd and QR takes connecting pax, Qatar based travelers and premium O&D?
dtw2hyd wrote:Connecting traffic.
Qatar-72%
Abu Dhabi-71%
Dubai-69%
BawliBooch wrote:dtw2hyd wrote:Connecting traffic.
Qatar-72%
Abu Dhabi-71%
Dubai-69%
Clear from these figures (if verified), that the bilaterals on the ME routes are far far in excess of actual O&D. And then some. Clearly, Praful Patel screwed Indian aviation in more ways than one.
The ME3 airlines are siphoning off the international traffic leaving the O&D passengers to Indian carriers.
AirIndia wrote:In DXB's case the bilaterals have been exhausted on both sides. Clearly there is a O/D traffic to DXB.
In addition, with Intl pax being siphoned off the O/D market has been captured largely by the Indian LCCs as can be seen with the explosion of DXB routes offered by 6E and SG.
BawliBooch wrote:
Clear from these figures (if verified), that the bilaterals on the ME routes are far far in excess of actual O&D. And then some. Clearly, Praful Patel screwed Indian aviation in more ways than one.
The ME3 airlines are siphoning off the international traffic leaving the O&D passengers to Indian carriers.
unrave wrote:BawliBooch wrote:
Clear from these figures (if verified), that the bilaterals on the ME routes are far far in excess of actual O&D. And then some. Clearly, Praful Patel screwed Indian aviation in more ways than one.
The ME3 airlines are siphoning off the international traffic leaving the O&D passengers to Indian carriers.
Not this argument again. No single carrier 'owns' Indian passengers. ME3 provide cheap fares, convenient timings, and the opportunity to avoid connecting at DEL/BOM. No wonder they have captured the market. Praful Patel is a godsend for Indian VFR travellers.
If Indians can overwhelmingly buy Chinese mobiles, Korean electronics, American software and Japanese cars, why should we insist that they fly on Indian carriers?
unrave wrote:...
If Indians can overwhelmingly buy Chinese mobiles, Korean electronics, American software and Japanese cars, why should we insist that they fly on Indian carriers?
BawliBooch wrote:Clear from these figures (if verified), that the bilaterals on the ME routes are far far in excess of actual O&D. And then some. Clearly, Praful Patel screwed Indian aviation in more ways than one.
The ME3 airlines are siphoning off the international traffic leaving the O&D passengers to Indian carriers.
vadodara wrote:BawliBooch wrote:Clear from these figures (if verified), that the bilaterals on the ME routes are far far in excess of actual O&D. And then some. Clearly, Praful Patel screwed Indian aviation in more ways than one.
The ME3 airlines are siphoning off the international traffic leaving the O&D passengers to Indian carriers.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Praful Patel liberated the harried Indian air traveller from the clutches of Air India. The growth of air travel in general, and from secondary cities in particular, is a testament to the success of Praful Patel's policies.
The only damage he did was to load Air India with a fleet it could not afford and forcing MRO operations to Nagpur. In time, both may yet prove to be positive.