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Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon May 01, 2017 6:43 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
Bombardier needed to sell its products at a loss to a major airline in order to gain credibility and prestige for its CSeries program.


They are also getting Delta Tech Ops on board.

That in itself is a substantial intangible benefit.
 
planes112
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon May 01, 2017 7:02 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
planes112 wrote:
I was pushing back on him for saying that they are going after bbd for the high of cost production of the early frames when in reality they are getting the average of cost of production for the program


I know. Boing are saying Bombardier's sale to Delta is significantly below their estimated final average production price.


But if Boeing were to take the 787 average production build cost on their initial counting block size, it'd be something farcical like double their initial estimated average build cost.
We've seen they have expanded the accounting block several times, allowing them to hide the "non cost" reductions as they've crawled along the learning curve.

All BBD would have to do is turn around and say we intend to build more than 2000 CSeries (they could even expand this to include not just CS100/CS300). Its too nebulous to tie down - anyone could show numbers that can swing any direction - with Bombardier citing Boeing's latest as a prime example!


I agree. Boeing is probably guilty of this too with their initial block estimates. They are hypocrites and are using dumping laws for uses never intended. But they have a great chance of winning this case and crushing bbd. it's business
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon May 01, 2017 7:37 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
We've seen (Boeing) have expanded the accounting block several times, allowing them to hide the "non cost" reductions as they've crawled along the learning curve.


They have done so because they've sold more 787s.


Amiga500 wrote:
All BBD would have to do is turn around and say we intend to build more than 2000 CSeries (they could even expand this to include not just CS100/CS300). Its too nebulous to tie down - anyone could show numbers that can swing any direction - with Bombardier citing Boeing's latest as a prime example!


BBD would have to justify that the market will absorb more than 2000 CSeries. They cannot just arbitrarily pick a number no more than Boeing can.
 
mham001
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon May 01, 2017 9:09 pm

b747400erf wrote:
mham001 wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
Timber is not related to NAFA and President Trump wanted his name in the papers, he has no power to negotiate NAFTA.


Whatever you do, don't quit your day job for those US political analysis ideas.

NAFTA's creation had been to remove tariffs from trade, something the lumber industry does not have. The only portion of NAFTA used is the trade dispute panel and general anti-dumping rules.

A President does not have the power to negotiate a treaty or agreement signed by Congress unless they grant him authority.

Don't quit your day job.


Without getting off topic, neither of those statements are accurate. I recommend you do more reading before analyzing the politics of countries in which you do not live, nor understand.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon May 01, 2017 9:49 pm

planes112 wrote:
They are hypocrites and are using dumping laws for uses never intended. But they have a great chance of winning this case and crushing bbd. it's business

Nah. First of all, it's politics, not business. As to winning, I don't think there's much chance of Boeing winning. Besides, winning means annoying Delta, one of Boeing's own biggest clients. I doubt Boeing even wants to win. This is about creating disruption for cash-strapped BBD. Anything that destabilizes BBD is bad for its business.
 
leghorn
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon May 01, 2017 10:05 pm

Bombardier shares are down on the day so I'm buying more once the transfer hits my share trading account.

This is purely vexatious litigation and will be seen as such. I like the product so I welcome the opportunity to purchase more of the company.
 
Skywatcher
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 02, 2017 1:17 am

Typical corporate American strategy-sic a bunch of $1,000/hour lawyers on whoever they decide to try to bury in litigation. I'm sure both sides will end up spending millions on legal fees for nothing. Boeing should seriously get their legal department under control and stop listening to their never ending "sue their asses off" advice. How self serving for the corporate lawyers and destructive for everybody else. No wonder the public perception of lawyers is somewhere south of used car salesmen and/or politicians.
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 02, 2017 2:16 am

Boeing is, among other things, jumping on the write down that BBD declared after the Delta deal went through. If BBD used the goofy program accounting that Boeing did on the 787, (which I believe is basically illegal in Canada), then they could have stretched their losses into infinity, just like Boeing.

I bet the boffins at Boeing have already heard from Delta telling them to mind their own business if they, a) ever want to be rid of the 717's in question, and more importantly, b), if they don't want Delta to put Toulouse on speed dial.

I wonder what could cost Boeing more...Delta buying a few CSeries, (which don't compete directly with anything Boeing sells), or some 321's and 350's.

They should learn to pick their battles. Trump is already saying bad things about the EXIM bank, (otherwise known as Boeing's bank). Boeing may want to just keep quiet lest the orange one starts looking at the new AF1 numbers again.

Skywatcher wrote:
No wonder the public perception of lawyers is somewhere south of used car salesmen and/or politicians.


...and serial killers.
What the...?
 
downdata
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 02, 2017 2:36 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
Boeing is, among other things, jumping on the write down that BBD declared after the Delta deal went through. If BBD used the goofy program accounting that Boeing did on the 787, (which I believe is basically illegal in Canada), then they could have stretched their losses into infinity, just like Boeing.

I bet the boffins at Boeing have already heard from Delta telling them to mind their own business if they, a) ever want to be rid of the 717's in question, and more importantly, b), if they don't want Delta to put Toulouse on speed dial.

I wonder what could cost Boeing more...Delta buying a few CSeries, (which don't compete directly with anything Boeing sells), or some 321's and 350's.

They should learn to pick their battles. Trump is already saying bad things about the EXIM bank, (otherwise known as Boeing's bank). Boeing may want to just keep quiet lest the orange one starts looking at the new AF1 numbers again.

Skywatcher wrote:
No wonder the public perception of lawyers is somewhere south of used car salesmen and/or politicians.


...and serial killers.


Given said 350s are already going to DL and the MAXs including Fantasy-10 don't exactly have the upper hand in the upcoming NB tender, BA might have thought they have nothing to lose from this intimidation act. If this succeeds, the future of CSeries will not be bright in the USA.
 
scudrunner
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 02, 2017 2:42 am

Gees give the governments of Quebec and Canada some credit, do you really think they wouldn't have had teams of lawyers covering these angles?
"Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible" - Bob Hoover
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 02, 2017 3:56 am

scudrunner wrote:
Gees give the governments of Quebec and Canada some credit, do you really think they wouldn't have had teams of lawyers covering these angles?


On the other hand, the great pumpkin has put a 20% duty on Canadian softwood lumber, without any investigation, and maybe go, 'oh well', when the ruling is eventually overturned.

In the meantime, BBD and Delta get hosed, Boeing gains some protectionist leverage and the CS500, (what I consider to be Boeing's real target in this), is pushed further back from realization.
What the...?
 
RalXWB
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 02, 2017 7:56 am

The Canadian government should also start investigations, because I still wonder how much money Boeing paid AC for ordering 737s :stirthepot:
 
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767333ER
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 02, 2017 2:11 pm

RalXWB wrote:
The Canadian government should also start investigations, because I still wonder how much money Boeing paid AC for ordering 737s :stirthepot:

I'm confident they greased the deal itself pretty good which is one thing, but then they agreed to take 20 E90s from their fleet, which o believe is why Airbus did not win the order.
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KarelXWB
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Mon May 08, 2017 12:36 pm

Flightglobal on the matter:

Boeing's CSeries trade complaint lacks credibility

Strangely, Boeing attempts to embellish these facts with absurd claims, such as an unfounded accusation that Bombardier sold the 75 CS100s to Delta for $19.6 million each. Bombardier responds that such a figure is “millions” of dollars too low, and it is right. Such a price would have caused it to book a forward-loss provision of $930 million, rather than $500 million.

Boeing also makes questionable charges of damages, such as an alleged loss of the Delta order. But the Atlanta carrier ordered 110-seat CS100s – a model against which Seattle’s smallest narrowbodies do not compete.


Leeham added that Boeing offered cheap 737-700s and second-hand 717s against the CS100:

Boeing competed in the Delta competition, offering a combination of used Boeing 717s and, LNC believes, new 737-700s. The fully amortized -700s can be offered at a very low price, compared with the new 737-7 MAX (which at that time was the 125-seat, two-class version, not the 149-seat configuration it has since become). Boeing beat Bombardier in a hot contest at United Airlines, predating the Delta deal, by offering the -700 at a rock-bottom price believed to be in the $24m range, a price Bombardier could not then match. (A United official denied the $24m price to LNC, but others cited this number.)


https://leehamnews.com/2017/04/27/boein ... series-us/
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downdata
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 09, 2017 1:57 am

Delta’s deal

What does this do to the Delta deal?

According to one source who has been in the airplane sales contract business for decades says that typically, any unexpected taxes or tariffs are passed through to the buyer—in this case, Delta.

While this source doesn’t know what’s in Delta’s contract, he says it is possible a “material adverse change” clause would allow Delta to cancel the deal.

The first airplanes are scheduled for delivery next year. Boeing wants a decision from the US and ITC before the first deliveries.


https://leehamnews.com/2017/05/08/ponti ... more-23264

This could be really damaging to Bombardier if it is realized. Have there been any precedents to order cancellations due to international trade disputes?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 09, 2017 7:17 am

A FlightGlobal opinion piece considers that Boeing's complaint "lacks credibility", not least for some bad maths. :oops:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ed-436886/
Strangely, Boeing attempts to embellish these facts with absurd claims, such as an unfounded accusation that Bombardier sold the 75 CS100s to Delta for $19.6 million each. Bombardier responds that such a figure is “millions” of dollars too low, and it is right. Such a price would have caused it to book a forward-loss provision of $930 million, rather than $500 million.

Boeing also makes questionable charges of damages, such as an alleged loss of the Delta order. But the Atlanta carrier ordered 110-seat CS100s – a model against which Seattle’s smallest narrowbodies do not compete.

...

Moreover, Boeing is not in the best position to complain about unfair trade practices. The WTO ruled last November that the airframer benefits from an illegal tax break that is thought to be worth somewhere between $1 billion and $5.6 billion – in other words, about the same as Bombardier’s subsidies.
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oldannyboy
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 09, 2017 7:51 am

Well well well. Boeing should keep quiet and seriously mind their own business...in the broader sense of the term.
Several suspicious deals come to mind: UA, FR, CO... c'mon guys, give us a break. Kettle meets pot, really.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 09, 2017 8:35 am

oldannyboy wrote:
Well well well. Boeing should keep quiet and seriously mind their own business...in the broader sense of the term.
Several suspicious deals come to mind: UA, FR, CO... c'mon guys, give us a break. Kettle meets pot, really.


No, it doesn't. What Boeing is arguing is not really the price dumping alone. It is the Government (Canada & Quebec) cash injected which permitted BBD to price dump the planes in the first instance (BBD would not have being able to afford if Government support did not come through).

Boeing is famous for this kind of tricks but, dirty or not, they use their own money and that's where the difference lies in regards to BBD.

They tried to do this before in the past when competing directly with Embraer and caused a trade war between Brazil and Canada on the WTO from where they did not come out lightly.

Brazil is again complaining also to the WTO on this on the same grounds (unfair Government Support) so Boeing is not alone.

I do not like these tactics but, as far as airlines use their own (shareholders/profits) cash, until legislation comes about, it is a fair game but when companies use heavy Government support, it is below the belt.

Only chance I see for BBD is to sell more planes out of Canada and prove the viability of the project.

Otherwise, even though a direct claim might not come their way, Canada as a nation will be battered on WTO on other trade areas making the setup unsustainable. This is what happened last time.
 
AitorL
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 09, 2017 10:55 am

C´mon, sell each plane for 32 millions, and offer DL 10 million for advertising the world how good each of those planes is, and account them as marketing costs.

Problem solved.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 09, 2017 11:32 am

Jomar777 wrote:
Boeing is famous for this kind of tricks but, dirty or not, they use their own money and that's where the difference lies in regards to BBD.


So where does the billions in in state aid (from say tax breaks in Washington State) go then?

Do the BA CEOs siphon them off into personal offshore accounts or something?


http://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org ... ent=boeing

$64 billion (and counting) since 2000...
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 09, 2017 11:42 am

Amiga500 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
Boeing is famous for this kind of tricks but, dirty or not, they use their own money and that's where the difference lies in regards to BBD.


So where does the billions in in state aid (from say tax breaks in Washington State) go then?

Do the BA CEOs siphon them off into personal offshore accounts or something?


http://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org ... ent=boeing

$64 billion (and counting) since 2000...



Yea, that dog won't hunt.
 
prestwick
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 09, 2017 12:24 pm

This is essentially a version of SLAPP (strategic lawsuit against public participation) although not against the public, it is designed to harass, intimidate and cost the defendant so much that they either give up or go broke trying to defend themselves against what is otherwise an unjustified legal suit. In other words the proponent of the suit wins even though they know they are in the wrong simply by having deeper pockets than the defendant.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 09, 2017 12:34 pm

Only chance I see for BBD is to sell more planes out of Canada and prove the viability of the project.


personally not aware of any CS flying within Canada. Just sayin'..
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 09, 2017 3:47 pm

People keep calling them subsidies; money which BBD has received from the Québec and federal governments. They're not subsidies, they're loans. Of course, one can say all they want about whether they think BBD will ever pay off these loans, but the fact remains that they are loans, not gifts.
 
wrongwayup
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 09, 2017 4:39 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Only chance I see for BBD is to sell more planes out of Canada and prove the viability of the project.


personally not aware of any CS flying within Canada. Just sayin'..


Not yet anyway. Just so happens DL is scheduled to take delivery before AC. But relative to the size of the fleet both in Canada vs the US, or the fleet at AC or DL, the C Series will be a larger portion of both north of the border.

Another angle that people are missing is Boeing defense R&D that is amortized as part of no-bid (or at least no-foreign-bid) programs, that subsequently find their way onto commercial programs. R&D tests are then "re-done" in the commercial realm so that there is "officially" no transfer of technology between the two - but it's the equivalent memorizing the answers to last years' final exam, then passing this years' exam without ever having to have taken the course. Pretty easy to find a few billion dollars effectively paid by the government using this method, but structured so as to be "within the rules" as far as subsidies go. I'm sure BBD & "Quebec Inc" will have had some high-dollar lawyers look at how their deal was structured to be "within the rules" as well. Different ways to get to the same outcome.
 
jalarner
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 09, 2017 4:49 pm

aerolimani wrote:
People keep calling them subsidies; money which BBD has received from the Québec and federal governments. They're not subsidies, they're loans. Of course, one can say all they want about whether they think BBD will ever pay off these loans, but the fact remains that they are loans, not gifts.


I can't find the link to back this up...but I remember reading last year (maybe even directly from Bombardier?) that they have paid back every loan plus interest ever given to them from Federal/Provincial governments in Canada.

I agree...people/media look too much of this as a handout and forget every penny they get needs to be repaid.
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beechnut
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Tue May 09, 2017 9:53 pm

aerolimani wrote:
People keep calling them subsidies; money which BBD has received from the Québec and federal governments. They're not subsidies, they're loans. Of course, one can say all they want about whether they think BBD will ever pay off these loans, but the fact remains that they are loans, not gifts.


The Quebec government's participation isn't a loan. They purchased a stake in the C-Series program, i.e. the Quebec government becomes a shareholder.

Beech
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed May 10, 2017 6:44 am

beechnut wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
People keep calling them subsidies; money which BBD has received from the Québec and federal governments. They're not subsidies, they're loans. Of course, one can say all they want about whether they think BBD will ever pay off these loans, but the fact remains that they are loans, not gifts.


The Quebec government's participation isn't a loan. They purchased a stake in the C-Series program, i.e. the Quebec government becomes a shareholder.

Beech

My bad. Yes, you are correct. Only the federal part is a loan. Nonetheless, purchasing a stake is not the same as a gift. I'm sure the Québec government would like to sell its stake some time in the future, just like the federal government sold off its stake in Petro-Canada.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed May 10, 2017 8:07 am

Amiga500 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
Boeing is famous for this kind of tricks but, dirty or not, they use their own money and that's where the difference lies in regards to BBD.


So where does the billions in in state aid (from say tax breaks in Washington State) go then?

Do the BA CEOs siphon them off into personal offshore accounts or something?


http://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org ... ent=boeing

$64 billion (and counting) since 2000...


One things is to get a subsidy of indirect nature and filter through your projects - another is to blatantly have a Government injection directly on a project.

I do not agree with any of those but BBD's case is more basically evident on the accounting point of view.

Many companies, BBD, B and A included, take grants in R&D, no-bidding, etc. etc. but use them across the board through their several projects and overall results.

But in the case of the C Series, BBD received a direct injection from the government and the AC order was also "through a direct incentive through debt trade".. It would have been better if the Quebec & Canadian Government had injected cash on BBD as part of an overall recovery process to save jobs rather than intervening directly on a determined project.

You might say it is the same thing but, crucially, it would be exactly what happens at Boeing and would silence them for good.

Sorry if this is pure accounting rather than aviation.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed May 10, 2017 8:11 am

oldannyboy wrote:
Only chance I see for BBD is to sell more planes out of Canada and prove the viability of the project.


personally not aware of any CS flying within Canada. Just sayin'..


Sorry if I was not clear on this one.

What I meant was that, for BBD, the chance to clear this all up would be to manage to acquire sizeable orders for the C Series from other carriers out of Canada. Maybe United, crucially Lufthansa Group or AF/KLM or one of the ME3 carriers.

So far only DL (apparently, correct if I am wrong, an old order which has just been ratified on a MOU) and AC ordered in good quantities. Apart from that Swiss and Air Baltic but we do know that those were on a very cut off price.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed May 10, 2017 8:43 am

Jomar777 wrote:
But in the case of the C Series, BBD received a direct injection from the government and the AC order was also "through a direct incentive through debt trade".. It would have been better if the Quebec & Canadian Government had injected cash on BBD as part of an overall recovery process to save jobs rather than intervening directly on a determined project.

You might say it is the same thing but, crucially, it would be exactly what happens at Boeing and would silence them for good.

Sorry if this is pure accounting rather than aviation.



The Federal Govt has yet to produce money for BBD.

The Local Govt bought shares in the CSeries - that means they stand to benefit from (a)Dividends and/or (b)Future sales of the shares. Either way, they are not freely handing over BBD money - there are at least two avenues to a financial return for them.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed May 10, 2017 6:18 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
The Federal Govt has yet to produce money for BBD.

The Local Govt bought shares in the CSeries - that means they stand to benefit from (a)Dividends and/or (b)Future sales of the shares. Either way, they are not freely handing over BBD money - there are at least two avenues to a financial return for them.

The federal government is paying out $372.5M in loans, over four years, most of which is actually earmarked for the Global7000 program. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/ ... -1.3971263

Also, it would be helpful to refer to the Québec government as the provincial government. I know that some UK paper published an article using the term local. It is, however, incorrect. Local government for BBD head office would be the City of Montréal, or for the factory would be the City of Mirabel. The $1billion loan came from the province of Québec, and not from any local governments. Québec is almost 3x the size of France.
 
Nean1
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri May 12, 2017 11:11 pm

We then have two assumptions: (1) Bombardier used dumping in the sale to Delta or (2) no dumping occurred. In the second case the company should be quite confident, since the analysis is highly technical and the US will not hurt a relevant trading partner without robust evidence.

If the investigation concludes that dumping occurred then the law should be applied, within its limits. While the airliners.net community firmly believes that regulatory accounting practices and international agreements may not be worth for the aerospace segment, this is an inexorable trend. Considering all new entrants and the domain of companies not directly controlled by governments, the use of generally accepted rules will expand. There will be no other way to peacefully resolve controversies.

In 1996, the Canadian government filed an action against subsidies on the financing of exports of Embraer regional aircraft. Since then there are no more naive. In that case we could repeat the current narrative where a much larger and well-established company tries to crush a small starter. The episode brought lessons to everyone and in the end the small entrant became dominant in an important segment. What lessons can we expect from this event?
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri May 12, 2017 11:27 pm

Nean1 wrote:
…and the US will not hurt a relevant trading partner without robust evidence.

:roll: If you believe that to be true, then I have a bridge to sell you.

I think prestwick has it correct:

prestwick wrote:
This is essentially a version of SLAPP (strategic lawsuit against public participation) although not against the public, it is designed to harass, intimidate and cost the defendant so much that they either give up or go broke trying to defend themselves against what is otherwise an unjustified legal suit. In other words the proponent of the suit wins even though they know they are in the wrong simply by having deeper pockets than the defendant.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu May 18, 2017 9:10 pm

U.S government has accepted the Boeing complaint and will investigate dumping and subsidy claims.
Both the Commerce departments and International Trade Commission will run parallel an investigations.

U.S. launches probe of Boeing dumping, subsidy claims vs Bombardier
http://www.reuters.com/article/boeing-b ... SL2N1IK1L1

=

Interesting to note that if Bombardier is found to have dumped C-series planes in the U.S, then it would have to pay duties equal to the value of the benefits. Those duties would then potentially increase the cost of the Bombardier planes ordered by Delta.

Probably makes any other US carrier think twice about acting on C-series orders not knowing if the pricing would stand future challenges.
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wrongwayup
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu May 18, 2017 9:54 pm

LAXintl wrote:
U.S government has accepted the Boeing complaint and will investigate dumping and subsidy claims.
Both the Commerce departments and International Trade Commission will run parallel an investigations.

U.S. launches probe of Boeing dumping, subsidy claims vs Bombardier
http://www.reuters.com/article/boeing-b ... SL2N1IK1L1

=

Interesting to note that if Bombardier is found to have dumped C-series planes in the U.S, then it would have to pay duties equal to the value of the benefits. Those duties would then potentially increase the cost of the Bombardier planes ordered by Delta.

Probably makes any other US carrier think twice about acting on C-series orders not knowing if the pricing would stand future challenges.


Technically, those importing the aircraft would have to pay the duty, not Bombardier. Which, ironically, means that Boeing is asking the US gov't to require Delta to pay an extra tax...
 
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aerolimani
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Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu May 18, 2017 10:09 pm

wrongwayup wrote:
Technically, those importing the aircraft would have to pay the duty, not Bombardier. Which, ironically, means that Boeing is asking the US gov't to require Delta to pay an extra tax...

All of this further reinforces my belief that this is a nuisance action intended to disrupt (and cause expense) to BBD. If Boeing were to win this one, they would just consider it a bonus. Although, it could possibly be a bonus with some negative consequences.

No doubt, Delta is investing in CSeries maintenance facilities/training, and would very much like to benefit from maintenance contracts with other potential CSeries operators. They can't be looking too favourably on this action by Boeing.

I wonder how LX/LH feel about this.
 
jmt18325
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat May 07, 2016 6:08 pm

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Thu May 18, 2017 10:28 pm

Canada has hinted that they may cancel the negotiations to purchase Super Hornets from Boeing over this.
 
mastermis
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:36 pm

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri May 19, 2017 12:09 am

jmt18325 wrote:
Canada has hinted that they may cancel the negotiations to purchase Super Hornets from Boeing over this.


F35's are next on the chopping bloc if NAFTA talks go sour!
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 579
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri May 19, 2017 8:15 am

jmt18325 wrote:
Canada has hinted that they may cancel the negotiations to purchase Super Hornets from Boeing over this.

And what will they purchase then, Russian Sukhois? Chinese J-11's?
They have no leverage whatsoever on the US.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 1228
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri May 19, 2017 8:47 am

planes112 wrote:
tlecam wrote:
1. Is BBD offering lower prices in another market than in its home market?


yes on page 75 of the official complaint (not pdf page 75). On page 120 of the report, they say that the estimated price for the air canada planes are 30 million while the delta planes are 19.6 million. They are trying to use both points to prove dumping


1 - BBD dispute those figures
2 - Air Canada were sold CS300. Delta were sold CS100. You expect a higher price for the larger model.
 
leghorn
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri May 19, 2017 9:01 am

the multinational company I work in sell our new products on better terms to first/early adopters. It is a means of getting a product developed and commercialized quickly.
Boeing would appear to think that this should not be allowed for any (vague hint that they might be a future)competitor even in market segments where they themselves have no meaningful market presence and have no particular inclination to have a market presence.
In a court of law this complaint would be given short shrift but the forum Boeing have chosen appears to be highly politicized and Wilbur Ross' quotes yesterday given no hint that Bombardier will get a fair hearing...all to the detriment of the American consumer especially potential passengers in non-primary airports where the traffic doesn't justify a regular service on a 737/320 sized aircraft.
 
TheF15Ace
Posts: 222
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:27 am

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri May 19, 2017 9:17 am

Wayfarer515 wrote:
jmt18325 wrote:
Canada has hinted that they may cancel the negotiations to purchase Super Hornets from Boeing over this.

And what will they purchase then, Russian Sukhois? Chinese J-11's?
They have no leverage whatsoever on the US.


Rafale, Gripen, Typhoon.
 
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1337Delta764
Posts: 5203
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri May 19, 2017 2:30 pm

If the courts side with Boeing, there should be an anti-retaliation clause in the ruling that prohibits Delta or the Canadian government from retaliating against Boeing.
Yes, I wear Fairy Tale Pink IZOD shirts. I am a real man.
 
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golfradio
Posts: 817
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:35 pm

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri May 19, 2017 2:39 pm

1337Delta764 wrote:
If the courts side with Boeing, there should be an anti-retaliation clause in the ruling that prohibits Delta or the Canadian government from retaliating against Boeing.


You think the Canadian Government is bounded by a US Court's ruling? Are you serious? :rotfl:

This is not just a fight with BA. With the 90 day countdown for the NAFTA negotiation initiated yesterday, the gloves will be off. This is going to be a pissing match. Canada will retaliate with whatever it's got. Oil, lumber everything is on the table now.
Bring back the old site.
 
micstatic
Posts: 635
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:07 pm

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri May 19, 2017 3:01 pm

1337Delta764 wrote:
golfradio wrote:
1337Delta764 wrote:
If the courts side with Boeing, there should be an anti-retaliation clause in the ruling that prohibits Delta or the Canadian government from retaliating against Boeing.




And then hopefully the US sends military forces to stop the retaliation. That is what I would do in any trade war if I were commander-in-chief.


You have gotta be kidding me?
S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
 
raylee67
Posts: 312
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri May 19, 2017 3:19 pm

I am glad that I have voted for a government which would stand up for Canadians against bullies. Our southern neighbor should understand that while they are a large chunk of the global economy, the world will continue to function without them participating. There would be some pain while the world transition, but we will get it over with. It's time we accelerate our discussion of trade pacts with South America and China, which are both underway. And then we should consider withdrawing from NAFTA, and then build the wall at our southern border.

And I think we should just immediately place the initial order with the European to get a few Typhoon. Don't know what Trudeau is waiting for.
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WaywardMemphian
Posts: 597
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:05 pm

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri May 19, 2017 4:04 pm

While I think we (USA)should do more for domestic manufacturing this is pathetic on Boeing's part. They have been caught with their pants down and now are desperate to fend off what is looming on the Horizon, a CS500. This isn't about the CS100, it's about sales of the CS300 and potential CS500 taking over the market they have with the hodge podge of 737s because they have slept on a new NSA design for decades.

What Boeing should be doing is what COMAC is looking to do, invest in Bombardier as a means to replace their 737s more cheaply than a clean sheet plane and comcentrate their efforts on the MOM that would also over the top end of the 737 market . Keep production in Quebec and place a line in the States as well. They have done such a fine job on the new tanker and the direct result of that was direct competion to the 737s being produced in Mobile with an American Assembled Airbus tag for the commercial side. Such winners they are.

You see the same Boeing thinking being played out on their pushing of the Super Hornet on the military side with upgrades for another carrier fighter instead of a new bird on 20 years.
Last edited by WaywardMemphian on Fri May 19, 2017 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 21653
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri May 19, 2017 4:09 pm

jmt18325 wrote:
Canada has hinted that they may cancel the negotiations to purchase Super Hornets from Boeing over this.

Canada is free to do as it wishes. Ultimately if it wants to cripple its own defense or opt for less financially viable options they certainly are free to pursue them.

The whole point why the Super Hornet came up was that is offered good capability at very attractive cost compared to opting solely for the F-35. Canada's own analysis showed competitors like the Typhoon were not suitable and came with higher cost burdens.

Amiga500 wrote:
1 - BBD dispute those figures
2 - Air Canada were sold CS300. Delta were sold CS100. You expect a higher price for the larger model.

1- The actual contract will surface as part of the inquiry and actual pricing given DL will become part of the public record.
2 - DL holds CS300 conversion rights, and pricing for those will also become public

leghorn wrote:
the multinational company I work in sell our new products on better terms to first/early adopters. It is a means of getting a product developed and commercialized quickly.
.

I think you are missing the whole point here. C-series project is not a regular commercial enterprise. The C-series is essentially a nationalized government program now and uses that crutch as a back stop to offer pricing terms it could not otherwise afford. If left to the market, the BBD Aerospace division might no longer even exist.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
WaywardMemphian
Posts: 597
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:05 pm

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Fri May 19, 2017 4:22 pm

LAXintl wrote:
jmt18325 wrote:
Canada has hinted that they may cancel the negotiations to purchase Super Hornets from Boeing over this.

Canada is free to do as it wishes. Ultimately if it wants to cripple its own defense or opt for less financially viable options they certainly are free to pursue them.

The whole point why the Super Hornet came up was that is offered good capability at very attractive cost compared to opting solely for the F-35. Canada's own analysis showed competitors like the Typhoon were not suitable and came with higher cost burdens.

Amiga500 wrote:
1 - BBD dispute those figures
2 - Air Canada were sold CS300. Delta were sold CS100. You expect a higher price for the larger model.

1- The actual contract will surface as part of the inquiry and actual pricing given DL will become part of the public record.
2 - DL holds CS300 conversion rights, and pricing for those will also become public

leghorn wrote:
the multinational company I work in sell our new products on better terms to first/early adopters. It is a means of getting a product developed and commercialized quickly.
.

I think you are missing the whole point here. C-series project is not a regular commercial enterprise. The C-series is essentially a nationalized government program now and uses that crutch as a back stop to offer pricing terms it could not otherwise afford. If left to the market, the BBD Aerospace division might no longer even exist.


Boeing is simply fears the C300 and the potential of a CS500 and what it might do to its remaining NSA market share they tend to by continuing to slap lipstick on the same ol'pig.
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