Will the Western Airlines brand be revived by a new LCC in the Western United States?

jplatts · Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:38 pm

Will the Western Airlines brand be revived by a new LCC in the Western United States?

Delta Air Lines, who merged with Western Airlines back in 1987, has long discontinued the use of the Western name. I have conducted trademark searches of "Western Airlines", and the only trademark with the "Western Airlines" name that I know of that is listed as being still alive in the USPTO database is not owned by Delta Air Lines, but by a company called Malibu Shirts in Malibu, CA.

There might be confusion between a revived Western Airlines and Southwest Airlines since the WN IATA airline code has long been in use by Southwest Airlines and is still in use by Southwest Airlines.

If the Western Airlines brand is revived by a new LCC in the Western United States, would it operate according to an ULCC business model like Spirit or Frontier, or would it operate according to a no-thrills LCC business model that doesn't charge for carry-on baggage in the overhead bins and has more comfortable seats than ULCC airlines in the US?

eal · Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:43 pm

jplatts wrote:
Will the Western Airlines brand be revived by a new LCC in the Western United States?

Delta Air Lines, who merged with Western Airlines back in 1987, has long discontinued the use of the Western name. I have conducted trademark searches of "Western Airlines", and the only trademark with the "Western Airlines" name that I know of that is listed as being still alive in the USPTO database is not owned by Delta Air Lines, but by a company called Malibu Shirts in Malibu, CA.

There might be confusion between a revived Western Airlines and Southwest Airlines since the WN IATA airline code has long been in use by Southwest Airlines and is still in use by Southwest Airlines.

If the Western Airlines brand is revived by a new LCC in the Western United States, would it operate according to an ULCC business model like Spirit or Frontier, or would it operate according to a no-thrills LCC business model that doesn't charge for carry-on baggage in the overhead bins and has more comfortable seats than ULCC airlines in the US?

Why would the name correspond to the level of service?

11725Flyer · Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:46 pm

I would be amazed if Delta didn't own the "Western Airlines" brand. Crazier things have happened, though.

RWA380 · Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:50 pm

Western Airlines was already revived once before. IIRC it was based at BLI. I suspect during their BK the name was sold off to ???

LAXintl · Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:53 pm

Already tried - 2007 with 737-400.

The New Western Airlines To Fly Today
viewtopic.php?t=437931

727LOVER · Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:54 pm

RWA380 wrote:
Western Airlines was already revived once before. IIRC it was based at BLI. I suspect during their BK the name was sold off to ???

Y E P

diverdave · Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:55 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Already tried - 2007 with 737-400.

I am always puzzled as to why folks want to start a new airline with an old name.

I guess it has worked for Frontier, but JetBlue and Spirit seem to be doing just fine without dusting off the name of a deceased airline.

jplatts · Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:56 pm

11725Flyer wrote:
I would be amazed if Delta didn't own the "Western Airlines" brand. Crazier things have happened, though.

The original Frontier Airlines was acquired by People Express Airlines back in 1985, which in turn was acquired by Continental Airlines in 1986, and Continental Airlines merged with United Airlines in 2012. The Frontier Airlines name was revived for the current Frontier Airlines back in 1994, and the current Frontier Airlines is still operating today, even though it has recently adopted the ULCC business model.

PlanesNTrains · Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:11 pm

jplatts wrote:
Will the Western Airlines brand be revived by a new LCC in the Western United States?

Could it? Sure. Will it? How can anyone really know?

lindy field · Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:18 pm

Seems to me that Western Airlines wouldn't be a bad choice if Alaska ever chose to rebrand itself.

OzarkD9S · Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:48 pm

lindy field wrote:

Seems to me that Western Airlines wouldn't be a bad choice if Alaska ever chose to rebrand itself.

Indeed!

Cunard · Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:50 pm

lindy field wrote:
Seems to me that Western Airlines wouldn't be a bad choice if Alaska ever chose to rebrand itself.

With the current extensive network of Alaska Airlines within the USA and with the Virgin America takeover the airline will fly all over the States so why would the airline chose to rebrand and if they did why Western Airlines.

A more appropriate name change could be the resurrection of the former Transamerica Airlines name which would more define the airline considering it flies from east to west coasts of the USA but I can't see any rebrand happening, not for now anyway.

RWA380 · Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:59 pm

Does anyone fly the WA code currently?

oosnowrat · Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:07 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:

Could it? Sure. Will it? How can anyone really know?

A good answer to all this guy's posts.

bohica · Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:23 am

diverdave wrote:
I am always puzzled as to why folks want to start a new airline with an old name.

A previous Western failed, several Pan Am's, we're not too sure about Eastern, and PeoplExpress was a total debacle. There's a few more as well.

Cunard wrote:
A more appropriate name change could be the resurrection of the former Transamerica Airlines name

I believe Transamerica Corporation still owns the "Transamerica Airlines" name.

Cunard · Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:29 am

Yes your probably correct, I should imagine the Transamerica Corporation still owns the 'Transamerica Airlines' name, I should have thought about that before I posted.

Wingtips56 · Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:36 am

RWA380 wrote:
Does anyone fly the WA code currently?

According to Wikipedia (yes, I know...) KLM Cityhopper has the WA indicator, though I assume not bookable as WA flight numbers...just KL.

Since the real Western Airlines left the skies 31-32 years ago, what would be the value in Alaska changing their name to a (currently) unknown? At one point a name change to something less regionally-confined might have made sense (like Allegheny, Lake Central and Air California,) but Alaska is now known coast-to-coast, Canada to Mexico, Costa Rica and Cuba, and to Hawaii, so there seems to be no point in changing that now. "Virgin" on the tail doesn't turn heads and get noticed as much as a smiling Eskimo does turning up in the tropics.

If a new LCC tried the Western name, I seriously doubt they'd serve champagne/sparkling wine to every passenger, so putting Wally back up on the tail wouldn't suit either.

Frontier II is pretty much the one reused name that has worked. Eastern: maybe, although it hasn't been the path to greatness so far.
But PanAm II/III, Braniff II/3, Western II, PeoplExpress II, MIdway II, National II/III, etc. have not been successful. So why would Western III expect anything different? Having worked for Western, the First, I can't say it was so terribly special that emulating it now would be a stairway to success. (I do love my transparent red "W___" swizzle sticks, however.)

sunking737 · Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:37 am

WAL (Western Air Lines) in now taken by World Atlantic Airlines

vhtje · Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:53 am

diverdave wrote:
I am always puzzled as to why folks want to start a new airline with an old name.

It is because there is a belief that is still resonance with the flying public with the name; therefore, that the use of an existing but defunct name will reduce the effort to sell a new airline to the flying public.

Whether or not that belief is completely misplaced is another matter entirely. But it can work: look at how Crossair rebranded into SWISS and took on Swissair's former identity. On the other hand, the airline landscape is littered with attempts to revive failed airline brands. How many Pan Ams have there been?

I think, on balance, I am with you: the airline industry has gone through so much change since 2001 it is folly in 2017 to be thinking of reviving a 20th century brand, no matter how illustrious the brand's past might have been. The millennials just do not care - they just want to fly for the lowest possible fare.

rbavfan · Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:12 am

Not a chance. Delta owns that name.

rbavfan · Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:15 am

jplatts wrote:
Will the Western Airlines brand be revived by a new LCC in the Western United States?

Delta Air Lines, who merged with Western Airlines back in 1987, has long discontinued the use of the Western name. I have conducted trademark searches of "Western Airlines", and the only trademark with the "Western Airlines" name that I know of that is listed as being still alive in the USPTO database is not owned by Delta Air Lines, but by a company called Malibu Shirts in Malibu, CA.

There might be confusion between a revived Western Airlines and Southwest Airlines since the WN IATA airline code has long been in use by Southwest Airlines and is still in use by Southwest Airlines.

If the Western Airlines brand is revived by a new LCC in the Western United States, would it operate according to an ULCC business model like Spirit or Frontier, or would it operate according to a no-thrills LCC business model that doesn't charge for carry-on baggage in the overhead bins and has more comfortable seats than ULCC airlines in the US?

You do know that Western Airlines was WA, not WN. Southwest was operating for years before Delta bought Western. They would not have been able to use the code.

crownvic · Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:23 am

11725Flyer wrote:
I would be amazed if Delta didn't own the "Western Airlines" brand. Crazier things have happened, though.

Actually, Delta has opted not to renew any of their previous trademarks and has let Northeast, Western, all the airlines that made up Republic go bye bye and the list goes on and on. The only name they continue to hold in trademark, is Northwest. My guess is, a few years down the road, they will that go too.

To answer many of the comments "Why would you resurrect a failed airline's name?", to me the answer is simple. Many of these names like Western, Eastern, Southern and several others have easily recognizable geographic names. I agree that bringing back Braniff or Morris Air would not make much sense, but for an airline looking to start up or re-brand itself, the directions of a compass or a region on earth is very memorable and recognizable.

wedgetail737 · Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:30 am

I know a little off the subject, but I think if Alaska were to change its name to a more national/international generic name, I would hope they would resurrect Jet America.

alfa164 · Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:30 am

lindy field wrote:
Seems to me that Western Airlines wouldn't be a bad choice if Alaska ever chose to rebrand itself.

If Alaska ever chose to rebrand, "Virgin America" would be a much better choice.

wedgetail737 · Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:33 am

alfa164 wrote:
lindy field wrote:
Seems to me that Western Airlines wouldn't be a bad choice if Alaska ever chose to rebrand itself.

If Alaska ever chose to rebrand, "Virgin America" would be a much better choice.

Alaska will be paying that name for years! And Alaska would have to pay royalties to the Virgin brand. The "Jet America" name is owned by Alaska Airlines.

USAirKid · Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:49 am

crownvic wrote:
11725Flyer wrote:
I would be amazed if Delta didn't own the "Western Airlines" brand. Crazier things have happened, though.

Actually, Delta has opted not to renew any of their previous trademarks and has let Northeast, Western, all the airlines that made up Republic go bye bye and the list goes on and on. The only name they continue to hold in trademark, is Northwest. My guess is, a few years down the road, they will that go too.

The other thing is you have to use a trademark to keep it. Now the use doesn't have to be significant, but you have to use it. There are still many gas stations that are "Standard" gas stations scattered throughout the US, usually one in each state to maintain use of the Standard Oil trademarks.

In the airline world, US Air named their wholly owned regionals after its predecessor companies, Allegheny, Piedmont, and PSA. American Airline Group still owns Piedmont and PSA, but Allegheny has since been folded into Piedmont. That being said the Retro jets still maintain the usage of the trademarks.

I'm not sure if Delta is actively using Northwest in any way right now.

PlanesNTrains · Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:40 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Not a chance. Delta owns that name.

Please see post #6.

wedgetail737 wrote:
The "Jet America" name is owned by Alaska Airlines.

There was a planned upstart several years back using the JetAmerica name, so I'm not sure if that's still accurate.

jplatts · Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:01 pm

USAirKid wrote:
crownvic wrote:
11725Flyer wrote:
I would be amazed if Delta didn't own the "Western Airlines" brand. Crazier things have happened, though.

Actually, Delta has opted not to renew any of their previous trademarks and has let Northeast, Western, all the airlines that made up Republic go bye bye and the list goes on and on. The only name they continue to hold in trademark, is Northwest. My guess is, a few years down the road, they will that go too.

The other thing is you have to use a trademark to keep it. Now the use doesn't have to be significant, but you have to use it. There are still many gas stations that are "Standard" gas stations scattered throughout the US, usually one in each state to maintain use of the Standard Oil trademarks.

In the airline world, US Air named their wholly owned regionals after its predecessor companies, Allegheny, Piedmont, and PSA. American Airline Group still owns Piedmont and PSA, but Allegheny has since been folded into Piedmont. That being said the Retro jets still maintain the usage of the trademarks.

I'm not sure if Delta is actively using Northwest in any way right now.

There is also an Airbus A319 plane (N838AW) in American Airlines's fleet that still has the America West logo painted on its tail and its engines.

william · Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:20 pm

Alaska changes name to Western. Delta buys new Western. AGAIN!........LOL!

jplatts · Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:26 pm

william wrote:
Alaska changes name to Western. Delta buys new Western. AGAIN!........LOL!

Delta and Alaska both have hubs at SEA and LAX, and Delta will also face significant competition from Alaska on SFO-JFK after the Virgin America SFO-JFK flights are moved to the Alaska brand. In addition, Alaska maintains a codeshare and mileage-earning relationship with American Airlines even though there are now some restrictions on the Alaska-AA codeshare relationship with the Alaska Airlines-Virgin America Merger. The government will not allow a DL-AS merger, especially with both airlines maintaining hubs at SEA and LAX.

USAirKid · Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:35 pm

jplatts wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
In the airline world, US Air named their wholly owned regionals after its predecessor companies, Allegheny, Piedmont, and PSA. American Airline Group still owns Piedmont and PSA, but Allegheny has since been folded into Piedmont. That being said the Retro jets still maintain the usage of the trademarks.

I'm not sure if Delta is actively using Northwest in any way right now.

There is also an Airbus A319 plane (N838AW) in American Airlines's fleet that still has the America West logo painted on its tail and its engines.

Yup, and a few 737s that have AA predecessor company livery/logos on them as well. But those AA predecessor companies and AWA never had subsidiaries named after them expressly to maintain trademark rights, like pre-2004 US did with their predecessor companies.

TransGlobalGold · Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:50 pm

I also don't get why people want to resurrect old airline names. Most of the ones that stopped flying other than merger were financial wrecks at the time of their demise. The drop in the level of service and reliability sullied the name for many. There are lots of original names out there. Hell, if an airline named WizzAir can make it anyone can.

Bald1983 · Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:54 pm

jplatts wrote:
Will the Western Airlines brand be revived by a new LCC in the Western United States?

Delta Air Lines, who merged with Western Airlines back in 1987, has long discontinued the use of the Western name. I have conducted trademark searches of "Western Airlines", and the only trademark with the "Western Airlines" name that I know of that is listed as being still alive in the USPTO database is not owned by Delta Air Lines, but by a company called Malibu Shirts in Malibu, CA.

There might be confusion between a revived Western Airlines and Southwest Airlines since the WN IATA airline code has long been in use by Southwest Airlines and is still in use by Southwest Airlines.

If the Western Airlines brand is revived by a new LCC in the Western United States, would it operate according to an ULCC business model like Spirit or Frontier, or would it operate according to a no-thrills LCC business model that doesn't charge for carry-on baggage in the overhead bins and has more comfortable seats than ULCC airlines in the US?

It would probably go the route of almost every other re-launch of extinct brands. That route is oblivion. What would be the point of re-launching airlines that no longer exist? Braniff was used twice and failed twice, Pan Am failed, Eastern is hardly anything, need I continue?

WesternDC6B · Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:00 pm

Will they have Champagne Flights and Hunt Breakfasts? And, am I showing my age by remembering such things? :old:

cschleic · Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:15 pm

william wrote:
Alaska changes name to Western. Delta buys new Western. AGAIN!........LOL!

Winner for the post of the day! And it'll probably start new DL / AS threads...ugh.

WesternDC6B wrote:
Will they have Champagne Flights and Hunt Breakfasts? And, am I showing my age by remembering such things?

...and the bird sitting on the tail of the plane?

Unfortunately, this one can't be recreated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzR7xa3KTaQ

PlanesNTrains · Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:32 pm

Hahaha That was actually a good commercial.

WesternDC6B · Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:49 pm

cschleic wrote:
william wrote:
Alaska changes name to Western. Delta buys new Western. AGAIN!........LOL!

Winner for the post of the day! And it'll probably start new DL / AS threads...ugh.

WesternDC6B wrote:
Will they have Champagne Flights and Hunt Breakfasts? And, am I showing my age by remembering such things?

...and the bird sitting on the tail of the plane?

Unfortunately, this one can't be recreated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzR7xa3KTaQ

Try this one instead! https://youtu.be/D0Ldq5zC6VI

:-{)}}}

Those were the days...! I only flew Western a few times, and my age was in single digits when I did. But I remember them fondly, and that is evident by my avatar.

OzarkD9S · Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:24 pm

TransGlobalGold wrote:

I also don't get why people want to resurrect old airline names. Most of the ones that stopped flying other than merger were financial wrecks at the time of their demise. The drop in the level of service and reliability sullied the name for many. There are lots of original names out there. Hell, if an airline named WizzAir can make it anyone can.

Many names are defunct due to acquisitions. Not all were financial basket cases at the time, though arguably some were. If someone were to start an airline based in ISP, Northeast wouldn't be a bad name. The old NE was a marginal airline from a profit perspective, but its still a good name. Since the original has been gone since 1972, there are few people who would associate it with the past.

BoeingGuy · Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:31 am

WesternDC6B wrote:
Will they have Champagne Flights and Hunt Breakfasts? And, am I showing my age by remembering such things?

Don't forget three feet for your two legs.

The resurrected Western flying out of BLI literally lasted only a few days. Maybe the shortest airline attempt ever?

The short-lived Indian Head paint scheme on the 727 was one of my favorite paint schemes when I was a child.

OB1504 · Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:42 am

vhtje wrote:
Whether or not that belief is completely misplaced is another matter entirely. But it can work: look at how Crossair rebranded into SWISS and took on Swissair's former identity.

That was done immediately after the collapse of Swissair and in terms of product, SWISS was virtually indistinguishable from its predecessor.

It's a far cry from launching airline using a name that hasn't been in the skies for 20-30 years and with a vastly different product.

drdisque · Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:50 am

Practical consideration: no major west coast airports currently have enough space for any significant new operation. They'd be stuck basing the airline somewhere like SMF, FAT, RNO, or ONT.

TransGlobalGold · Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:36 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
TransGlobalGold wrote:

I also don't get why people want to resurrect old airline names. Most of the ones that stopped flying other than merger were financial wrecks at the time of their demise. The drop in the level of service and reliability sullied the name for many. There are lots of original names out there. Hell, if an airline named WizzAir can make it anyone can.

Many names are defunct due to acquisitions. Not all were financial basket cases at the time, though arguably some were. If someone were to start an airline based in ISP, Northeast wouldn't be a bad name. The old NE was a marginal airline from a profit perspective, but its still a good name. Since the original has been gone since 1972, there are few people who would associate it with the past.

If you read my post, it said "Most of the ones that stopped flying other than merger " That was meant to differentiate between merged carriers and those that were killed off by bad management and poor products i.e. BN, EA, PA, etc.

flyfresno · Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:19 pm

drdisque wrote:
Practical consideration: no major west coast airports currently have enough space for any significant new operation. They'd be stuck basing the airline somewhere like SMF, FAT, RNO, or ONT.

Air21 style?

F9Animal · Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:18 pm

RWA380 wrote:
Western Airlines was already revived once before. IIRC it was based at BLI. I suspect during their BK the name was sold off to ???

If I remember correct, the revived Western Airlines flew for less than a week. In fact, I think they lasted maybe a day or two?

wntex · Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:25 pm

oosnowrat wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

Could it? Sure. Will it? How can anyone really know?

A good answer to all this guy's posts.

I've thought the same thing recently...

WALmsp · Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:41 pm

F9Animal wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
Western Airlines was already revived once before. IIRC it was based at BLI. I suspect during their BK the name was sold off to ???

If I remember correct, the revived Western Airlines flew for less than a week. In fact, I think they lasted maybe a day or two?

Little bit longer, but not much. The biggest problem they ran into was the lack of a merchant identification number with which to process credit card payments. No number – no money. The operators claim to be attempting to solve that problem at the time, but, obviously, nothing came of it.

A new "Western" would be that in name only. It would be nice, but not the same…

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